Hey Guys, I am looking at a JD 450C dozer. Here is the problem with it. It is a power shift model. It started with the steering getting weak. Then it got to where it wouldn't pull in higher gears. Now it will barely move and the hydraulics are very slow. The owner said he did some checking and some people said it might be a charge pump. I am not sure. I have worked with tractors and trucks but not on tracked equipment. What would I be looking to fix it if I got it? It has about 500 hrs on an overhaul and 60% on the UC and a 6 way blade.
The blade should be a separate system from trans.
I've had lots of experience running them, but I never could figure out their transmission. It's a lot different than Cat. That hydraulic system is separate from the transmission though, sounds like more than one problem. I'd say it's got worn steering clutches in the best case scenario causing the lack of steering and then not pulling in the higher gears. If the tranny has some bad clutch plates, that would cause it to slip in the higher gears and would be a lot more time and money to fix. I'd say you need to check trans pressures first to see if they're OK. I've got the service manual on it if I can scan something for you or look it up, I'd be glad to. Like I say, I've ran several but never worked on the transmissions or the steering clutches. I'm just thinking out loud. The lack of steering could be caused by the brakes being out of adjustment too, but can't tell from the info provided. Let me know if you need something out of the service manual.
Thanks for the reply. I just am not sure if I want a crash course in JD dozers. The way it was relayed to me was there is a charge pump that feeds the steering, tranny and the main hydraulic pump. If that is the case I can believe it. I am just not sure if he knows what he is talking about. He is asking 5k for it. I just don't want a 5k chunk of iron that needs another 5k to be usable.
Like the adult undergarment, it depends. If you can get a usable JD450 for $10K, that is a good price. Would not take much work to amortize the purchase/repair. At $40/hr that works out to 250 hours run time, or a little over 6 weeks. However if there is more things wrong to repair before it is a working machine that changes the economics of it. Or if the repair parts are unobtanium that changes things as well. BTW in my experience, no used small dozer in the $10-$15K range is without problems. If they are mechanically perfect they go for a bit more.
If it is a John Deere 450C it is not a powershift. It has a four speed gear type transmission which has a shifting lever for selecting one through 4. A second shift lever is for high foreword, low foreword, low reverse and high reverse. There is a conventional disk type clutch in the system which is activated by the clutch pedal with the operator's foot. The high/low/foreword/reverse shuttle is a hydraulic type clutch separate from the standard clutch. To start it sounds like the steering clutches may need to be adjusted. (simple procedure) The clutch may also need adjusting. (simple procedure but harder than the steering clutches) Takes a pressure gauge to to the transmission clutch. Best to get a tech manual which will give the details to do both. If you have to go inside of the transmission and change the clutch good luck. These little bit--es are a real stinking nightmare to work on.
Thanks, for the help. I think I am going to pass on it. I am in the middle of building my house and I have enough on my plate. I will just have to make do with my Massey 65 till something else comes along.
Hi Seafarer12,It's been awile since I'v had a 450c tore apart but if memory serves me right there is a hydraulic valve on the clutch linkage that controls oil flow to the clutch packs in the power shift side of the transmission.There is an access port on top of the bell housing to adjust the valve.The valve could be bypassing oil if its not adjusted properly or it could just be bad,I dont know but it's a place to start looking.The way I remember on a 450c you partly depressed the clutch peddle to shift the "power shift" gears on the dozer and fully depressed the clutch to shift the maual side.When the clutch is partly depressed the hydraulic valve opens killing oil flow to the clutch packs.Good luck with it and that Massey 65 with a box blade will move allot of dirt
that aint too bad of a price for a 450c, up here in northern pa, 7500 starts and they seem to top out 15 - 16k
I made a mistake it is a 450B Thanks for the information. I might write the guy. I am wondering if the pump is getting weak too since the blade is slow too. I imagine the pump isn't the easiest thing to change. I have found them for the 500 dollar range. I am just not sure where in the guts they are. This one is just so cheap because it will hardly move and with the economy in the tank nobody is real interested in it. The only ones I have seen close are Komatsu dozers. I saw a real nice 450 loader with a clamshell bucket and rippers in good shape but it was in the 15k range. The Massey is good. I have a Massey roll over box blade too. It is a real stout one. I haven't seen many new ones close to this one. I just need to do a lot of dirt work on my 31 acres and the Massey is a bit slow.
450b's have dry clutches and require more attention than the c's with the wet clutches. On a c the hydraulic pump is up front on the motor down low, and doesn't look too bad to change. Before I ordered the pump thought, I'd change the hydraulic filters and change the hydraulic oil.
Some misinformation going on here.I've owned and operated a bunch of small JD dozers,still have a 450D.The transmission is NOT a ''power shift'',it's called a shuttle tranny and it comes with a reverser.You put the tranny in gears 1-4 and simply use the reverser to change direction.You only need the clutch pedal when changing gears,NOT when using the reverser.The beauty of the system is that you can shift direction ''on the fly'',without slowing down at all and like I said,without using the clutch pedal.
JD 450 C Transmission One word of caution on shifting from forward to reverse "on the fly" without comming to a complete stop on a 450 C dozer.They have a weak spot on the transmission casting back at the pinion bearing housing.The chamferd edge that holds the bearing away from the ring gear is only about an 1/8 inch thick .My buddy found this out the hard way slamming the gear shift forward & backward.I got a call from him to pick up the 450 & fix it.We ended up installing a new transmission case.The Smaller JD dozers are built pretty much like a 4020 farm tractor with the transmission structurally holding the framework all togather.I'll put it this way...It aint a 15 minute job swapping a 450 tranny case.
Trans housing Amen, I've seen 4 of them do that when I was around them 7-8 years ago. It ain't cheap to fix either. They're a fantastic spreading dozer, but don't overload them. You have to adjust that main clutch so it grabs well but doesn't slip. For contracting purposes, I got away from them because they have a lot more power than they have sturdiness, for lack of a better word. We stripped finals, blew trannys and twisted other stuff by doing stuff they weren't meant to do. I found the D4 Cats to be a lot better suited for our main function, which was clearing cedar trees.
The pump on a 450C is a real bit-- to change as is everything on a 450C. They are the worst machine to work on I have ever seen. Even the Deere Dealer techs say so.
I agree d9gdon & Greg:iagree The JD 450 dozers & highlift tractors worked great on the jobsite, but dang ......when they break down they are a son of a gun to work on.Not mechanic friendly at all:cussing You have to be thin & double jointed to reach in to the bowels of the 450 crawler When I swapped out the tranny case for my buddy there was more parts & hardware laying on the shop floor than was still on the 450 dozer,whewwweeee!We drank a little barley soda after that job:drinkup John Deere must have hired the Smurfs to assemble the 450's at the factory
I have two 450A track loaders trying to make one good machine. Is it just me or are John Deere parts hard to get. Somethings are available, other parts no one even wants to look for. And i agree with those here who believe the design was lacking. Both machines the Frame to bell housing spacers T23886 And Frame to bell housing bolts T21238 are all broken. Seems they decided to hang the motor - radiator - and that heavy nose piece off the bellhousing by those broken parts. I found a used set of the spacers but the special bolts are a dealer item. Anyone have a good deere dealer to recomend?
Hi amunderdog.For new parts try http://www.erbequipment.com/ For used parts try http://sewlparts.com/Information.aspx
Got a 450C track loader here. Can't say that anything about the whole damn machine impresses me. Can't say I think they are great around the job site as put by td25c. Lots of hydraulic leak problems. Is even a bit-- to change the oil filter. The list goes on and on and on. My advise is to buy a D3 or D4 if you are looking for a dozer.
There is absolutely no need for a complete stop,or even close to a full stop with the reverser.With all the small Deere dozers and 510B hoe Iv'e owned and own over the last 36 years,that's the only way I've run them.It's even in the owner's manual that there is no need to stop before changing direction.I've worked these rigs hard too and I've never had any tranny related problems.
Thanks for the information guys, I found another 450 for sale in better shape. It is a loader though. The guy is asking 12k but it has new steering clutches and 80% UC as well as good hydraulics and rippers. I haven't seen many Cats for sale around here except for big old ones.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news here, but in my experience there is no such thing as good hydraulics on JD 450's. Go look for a D3 or a D4, you will be much happier.
greg... if they were as bad as you say, there wouldn't be nearly as many around.... I like my 450c, just wish I had more work for it. I've used it maybe 20 hrs this year. But it owes me nothing. Seafarer, from what i've seen loaders sell for less than dozers. 10 would be about my limit for a 450c. heck I saw a cat 953 selling for 15k just the other day. That being said you can take the rops off them and have the shortest tool for putting basements under existing structures.
X2--The very best small dozer out there,my 450 D I purchased almost new back in '85,you couldn't ask for a better,more reliable dozer.Still has the original tracks,only had to turn pins and bushings once.Whatever it's worth,I can change my oil filter in app.5 minutes or less.It's right there on the side of the block-simple,nothing in the way.
maybe greg likes to change the oil filter with the loader arms beside the filter for amusement... it was just too simple otherwise
NO, GREG DOES NOT LIKE TO DO IT THAT WAY!!!! Like I have said here before. Deere crawlers don't impress me, especially when you have to work on them. As I said before here too, Deere dealer techs say the same thing to. Just look how they screwed up the hydraulic tank fill port. Why would anybody put the port right where the cover opens up? Can't hardly get oil in them with a funnel without spilling half of it. I could go on for hours.
That oil filter being right there sure is handy but dangerous. We had two separate 450C's get their filter punctured by brush, got one shut down in time. The other one was toast by the time the guy saw the oil. It's amazing how much oil they'll pump so quickly.
IndustryTrader.com Check industrytrader.com for more info or similar models
Old thread, but... Another 450c owner here, with a question: my machine has gotten to where it won't hardly pull itself in reverse...used to, you could pull the steering handles towards to you abruptly and it would take off like normal, but now it's like it won't engage or something? We repowered it a couple years ago, with a new clutch I believe, but I'll be honest with you, I'm sure between all of us who've ran it that none of the filters (other than engine oil) have ever been changed...could that be the problem, possibly? We just use it around the farm here, not as a meal ticket...
is the 450 b as bad to work on ??
Compared to -----what? It's basically all relative,but the much older b's and a's are slightly harder on SOME components to work on yes.Loaders are more difficult than dozers.
Any help on this post? I need to get this thing moving again...
Yes,it certainly can be the tranny filter and/or your contaminated tranny oil.Most likely you have some gunk of some sort blocking a valve or stuck in some small orifice blocking flow.I would change all your filters ASAP along with all your tranny,hydraulic,steering,and finals oils[same oil--trans/hyd].See what happens,you might get lucky but I have a feeling a flush will be in order.Every 500 hrs.the tranny and hyd.filters get changed,all hyd. oils every 1K hours.
450B owner here. My dozer won't push in high range. Guess high range clutches. How hard is is to pull the hi lo out of this machine. Am I hurting it not servicing it right away. It still moves in high range but no pushing power.
I'm using a 450b that is my father in-law's. The right side won't steer for some reason. The track will sometimes slow down for a moment but then it's like you aren't pulling back at all if you are just traveling. The weird thing to me is that it will work if you have it under a load pushing something. My father in-law has had this for about 3 years but hasn't used it much and it has been this way since he got it. Also from reading this post am I correct that I only need to clutch when changing 1st and 2nd gear but no need to clutch between high, low, neutral and reverse? I've been clutching for everything! I tried to start new thread put couldn't I guess because I've never posted here before. Thanks for any replies.
Another old thread back from the dead. TD25C has it all figured in his post, the JD 45C has a minimum clutch pack operating pressure requirement. Run it very long below par, the plates glaze, and it's all over but the crying then. You can tell this by a burnt smell in the trans fluid. And by checking the pressure against the spec. They are truly an SOB to work on. Mine took four trips to the dealer, and I had to shim up the pressure myself after the last trip, having given up. Take the advice of Greg. Go find yourself a good CAT and never look back. The new hydrostatics are great. Avoid the early C's. And all the pre-hydrostat CATS are good to my knowledge. The engineer who designed the Ford Tractor Select-O-Speed tranny was later hired by Deere around the time of the 450C. If you know anything about those particular Ford tractors, go figure. The old saying goes, "Nothing runs like a Deere". Nothing but me trying to stay away from one.
HERE HERE Bluetop Man. Somebody finally agrees with me here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In all fairness, John Deere did away with the defective design clutch pack thing on it's small dozers and they are now hydrostatic drive like the larger ones have always been. I never ran one for long and prefer CAT, but operators who have stayed on them like the Deere machines better. That's the operators point of view, and the ergonomics are very good on Deere dozers. I detect a slight tendency for the Deere turbos to fail out-of-warranty and blow engines. Maybe Deere has cleaned that up, too. Overall, Deere has come a long way with it's heavy equipment designs, but the general perception is that the price gap between and CAT has narrowed and in some cases Deere has become costlier, especially parts. Perhaps someone here with more Deere experience can comment more accurately.
Sorry to post on here but I signed up for this sight about 3 weeks ago and I'm still not able to start a new thread. Any ideas? Here's my problem though if anybody can help me out. Again sorry to the OP but I can't start my own. Mine is a 350C. I replaced all the oil except the hydrolics for the blade. It still will not turn left. If you pull back on the right lever it turns right, if you pull back on the left lever it keeps going straight unless you are backing up a hill or pushing a little dirt. If I pull back on both levers the dozer will stop. It will spin the tracks in 2nd gear and stall it if you get a good load in front of it and pick up the blade (I'm clearing trees right now). My question is that from what I've read I need a new "brake band". Do you replace them from the top under the seat or from the side by taking the track off, the sprocket off, then the final drive housing and come in from that way? If I come in from the top it looks like I'll have to take the roll bars off, the fuel tank off and the battery box and blade hydrolic box off and that means take a WHOLE bunch of hydrolic lines off. Anyways what is the easiest procedure for replacing a brake band? Thanks for the help in advance guys.
zorro700 You replace them from under the seat. don't split the track, don't touch the final drive. They are a real bit-- to work on. Not sure if you can do it with out taking off the hydraulic tank, and controls on the other side. To get at everything in the steering clutch compartment may mean pulling the whole assembly consisting of the seat, fuel tank, hydraulic tank and controls package. If you have a rops that has to go too. These little machines were never designed to me mechanic friendly in any way.
The smaller older CASE dozers look like they were designed with servicing and repair in mind. The newer CASE track machines look Komatsu to me and don't have that easy to work on look about them. But I really don't know, not having been around the new stuff.
Hi, I have a 450c that has stopped turning left. It was working OK (you did have to pull the left turning lever harder than the right when I bought it last fall) then it quit. Do you think it would be the steering clutches? If it won't turn left, would it be the clutch pack on the right hand side? Thanks for any help, this is my first dozer.
Warren, I don't think so. Take the big 1" plug out on the left side right above the track and tighten your brake band. I think it has backed off. It's about 2 feet from the back of the machine. It has a square plug that takes a 3/4" drive ratchet to unscrew. It adjusts like a drum style brake. Tighten it up until the left steering lever has about 3" of play in it (from memory). I usually adjust it to match the other lever and see how it does from there.
Thanks for the info, unfortunately my brother (co-owner) had started ripping things apart before I got to it!! He thinks it's the steering clutch and has it apart on his bench. The plates don't look bad to me, the fiber ones still have a cross-hatch pattern on them. Is there a certain thickness that is reccomended for these? Are these clutch packs normally engaged and the hydraulic pressure causes them to release? Or is it the other way around?
There never was a ''defective design clutch pack'' on the oil immersed 350,450,and 550 series.The changeover to hydrostatic was simply to change with the times and keep up with the competition. Doesn't at all mean the old system was bad.Once again,I've owned several 350 and 450's with thousands of hours of seat time with 0 problems in 35 years.I'll take the reverser design over hydrostatic any day for a small dozer and you're right--''NOTHING RUNS LIKE A DEERE.''
You mean nothing runs like a deere with a Cat chasin it.
I just bought a 450 B or C (not sure). It is a crawler dozer with a 6 way blade. So far it's proven it's usefulness as its powered through a thick forest cutting a road in. Transmission shifts great. Engine starts right up. It won't go left, when I pull the left handle it feels very loose, no tension. Any suggestions?? Where could I find a shop manual? And how can I determine if mine is a B or C?
Either steering clutch adjustment or a bad clutch,but the B is a dry[PIA] clutch,C's and beyond are wet clutches so there's different procedures for each.Shop manuals are all over the net-start at Ebay,another great source for everything JD crawlers is jdcrawlers.com.Lots of distinguishing differences between a B and C,so just tell us your Serial #.
Only problem is most deer are faster than any cat.
Found a manual on EBay. Thanks. How do I adjust the steering clutch? Is it simple to do?
Do you now know what model you have?
I believe it is a "B" model
A quick update. One of the bolts that holds the right clutch pack together backed out and caught the hydraulic hose that feeds the steering clutch. I'll try to get a new hose made tomorrow.
Again,what is your serial # or post a pic here.Don't you want to know what model you have????
I think the B models had the shifter in the floorboard between your legs. I know that the C had the shifter on the left beside the arm rest.
Update # 2. Five of the six bolts were loose in the steering clutch assy. Does anyone know the proper amount of torque for these bolts?
Hi I'm new to this fourm I have a jd450c dozer just rebuilt transmission it runs good for 30-45 minutes after that it stops pulling any help would be greatly appreciated
I've owned a 450B, a 450C and now have a 450E all three had/have the H-L-R transmissions, I have had zero problems with any of the transmissions. I did replace the engine clutch in the 450B and the steering clutch packs i i one side of that machine, other than that undercarriages and one hydraulic pump on the 450C. The 450E had a charge pump pressure issue (sounds like the op might want to look there) and the shuttle valve replaced ( it slammed into gear when changing directions) Not bad little dozers and if you can find one in my area for less than $12,000 to $15,000 they're basically parts machines or fixer uppers.