Mobile mechanic here and I want a new (to me) truck. Currently I'm driving an '85 International S1954 with a DT466 and Allison automatic. That trans is really nice in stop and go traffic, but completely blows everywhere else. Forget about towing, forget about going into the mountains. I've sort of massaged by business accoring to the limited capabilities of that drivetrain. Along comes a GMC 6500 local municipality service truck coming up for auction next week. Has a 14' box like mine, but it's got bigger and more cabinets, a better crane, 10 speed Eaton and even air conditioning. I'm trying to look past the GMC part . And wow it has Cat power... booo it's a 3116. What I've read about the injection system on that engine really turns me off. It sounds like a plan that shouldn't have left the drawing room. Too much hassle, and the tools to maintain it correctly are too expensive. Not to mention it's not a wet sleeve engine, so you gotta pull the whole thing to rebuild it. I'm not interested in that just to drive a Cat. The DT466 that runs. every. time. Is not an exciting powerplant, but it works and passes smissions easily. HP wise, I think the 3116 edges out the 466 by 10 ponies or so. The 466 was inframed by yours truly 3 years ago. The 3116 will need to be plugged in to start in the cold. The 466 will start down to -20 without assistance, and even then it's just a jump because the batteries are a few years old. It has factory built in ether that I have never used. I want the truck, but I don't want the engine, is what I'm saying. I have been spoiled by that 466. It has never given me one bit of trouble, not once. So I'm thinking of buying the rig and swapping engines. Best of both worlds. When I'm done my old International will head to the auction block with Cat power, and the 466 will find a new home in the GMC. Things are starting to slow down for me a bit soon. February is a good time to do this, business - wise, I can be down for a month while I do the swap. That's going to suck for me because my shop is only big enough for one truck. So, one of those engines, I'm going to swap in the snow. So I'm thinking put in a little work now, and have peace of mind while I'm driving 30+ year old trucks. What do you think? Swap tha Cat or not?
I'm sure many will say it's not worth it, but I'm all for doing what works for you @simonsrplant just swapped engines in his truck and seems quite pleased with the results. Lots of variables, but if you want to do the work, go for it. Will the 466 fit into the GMC? I don't know how the two engines compare size wise. Do you have the ability to move a dead truck around? I used a helper and a farm tractor to move a non-runner out of the shop, and then back into the shop earlier this fall when a more urgent job came ththrough. Maybe your work flow could be to pull the 466, swap trucks, pull 3116, install 466, swap trucks, install 3116 type thing? I know it's extra work, but Sheridan in February isn't exactly a warm place to work outside.
February around there does suck, to be sure. Maybe better off waiting for a 466 to show up at an auction and do the swap then. I won't be a truck down that way.
If the 466 is underpowered, it's not going to be any less underpowered in the other truck. Plus you now have a GMC that's not going to be any easier to get parts for. Sounds to me like you would be better off to find a different truck that's equipped like you want. If you like the other bed , buy the truck for the bed and remount it on a truck you want. I'm surprised more independent guys don't run cut down KW/pete/macks etc. M11, e-6, even a Detroit 60 series. I don't think it would burn much more fuel, and it would sure be a better built truck. I think I would rather buy a second truck that you want, and not be down for a month. Build the second truck while you still use the current truck.
466 is definitely not a HP monster. Mine's got a bump because I put a holset turbo in there to bring up the boost 4 or 5 psi and I cranked up the pump a little. So maybe I'm on par with the Cat, who knows. I'm in Colorado - we don't get full HP out here anyway I'd love to do a COE build out of a Kenworth K100 or one of those old cracker box deals. That would make a sick rig. That's too much of a project for me though, I think. I'd have to build the body or spend a fortune on one. I like the class 6 life. They're heavy enough to do what I need and not too big to park at Napa.
I'm for keeping the cat......
I have had 3 trucks with the little Cat 3116. While I have been told it is not a great engine,mine all were very dependable and cost me very little to maintain. All had nearly 400,000 mi. on them when I bought each one. I ran each truck about 100,000 miles, with no problems. I might remember wrong, but I think the 3116 is about the same HP as a 466. nothing wrong with the good old DT466, but I would keep the cat engine, take care of it, and run it until it craters, or needs major repair.
No way on a K100. Or any coe. Who wants to about fall on their ass every time getting in and out of the cab? Now if we're talking about a mack autocar or pete garbage truck forward cab? One of those would have your Allison, but with a few more ponies... I could get behind that idea. But if the choice is the GMC with the 3116 , or the GMC with the transplanted 466, I would also keep the 3116 , and not bother with the swap.
Yeah I'd probably trip getting out and use my face to stop the fall
You have a reliable truck with automatic transmission. Slow on the highway and hills. I have a 1990, 4900 with DT466 and I know the agony. But you charge by the hour from the moment you get in the truck to head to the location, so no need to get there fast. Treat yourself to a new fancy drivers seat, and maybe install a better sound system. And of course lighten the load! Maybe remove anything in the service box you almost never need or haven't used in years or can make do without.
Wouldn't more gears and no torque converter make what power it does have more usable?
Yep
PeterG talks sense from my experience. We were running 2 IH 466's and are still running one. They aren't powerhouses but start easily, are economical , reliable, and easy to fix.
A 13 speed RR with overdrive.
What power level is the DT466 currently at and which Allison automatic does it have? I have a 2000 IH 4700 flatbed with a 190hp DT466 and Allsion MT643. It is slow, but it's reliable, easy to operate and parts are readily available. If you want something different than what you have I'd either buy the GMC and take a gamble on the 3116 or find something you like better. I'm all for finding a cab/chassis that you like and swapping bodies, but swapping two similar engines seems like a lot of work for (potentially) no gain.
What year is the gmc ?
Yeah I hear that. HP numbers are close enough to be the same. The 466 is a solid engine and easy to fix. That 3116 just seems like more trouble than it's worth.
My current rig is an '86 the GMC is a '91
I don't think my travel time is going to change at all, no matter what I go with. I can't afford a speedy rig, so a-slow we go. The body on the GMC is laid out better and has more storage. I'm going to need that because I plan on moving out of my shop next year and more is going to be in the truck. I could just find a bigger body and stretch my current frame, but it would be an even bigger dog than it is now.
Right! That's why I want to keep mine. It's no powerhouse but it will get me there, every time.
Keep both trucks use the ih as a spare
So we do a lot of stop and go, and a lot of short steep hills. I've got 5 cranes with allison's/ZF torque convertor transmissions now, and in the short steep hills they are great. We used to be all manual transmissions, and I was a die hard "manual only" guy. Now we are pretty much auto's only in the cranes. All our straight truck, and tractor trailer combo's are manuals, but also are big block/ bigger power engines. The old cranes that were underpowered with 13 speed transmission? Well they were underpowered and having more gears doesn't really help. You might feel like you're getting more done, because you're busy grabbing gears. but I don't actually think you're getting any more done. Our smallest cranes are around 54,000lbs and are set up with 3126e's at 300hp. And I'd rather drive those, than the older grove's that we replaced, that were around the same weight, with 8.3 cummins, and 13 speeds. What kind of weight are you with the service truck? Probably somewhere between 15-20,000? And what kind of driving are you doing? Long distance flat ground? Lots of in town? Mix of both? If you are a lot of in town, stop and go traffic, I think you will want your allison back.
wlhequipment, are you still running an AT545 in that truck? If so theres a big part of your problem, those were pretty awful in medium duty trucks loaded to any kind of weight IMHO. I'm not sure what your budget is but I'd be looking for something a lot newer than a '91 for an 'upgrade'. Not only for power and comfort, but the parts situation as well. Something early 2000's pre-emmissions is where I'd be looking. You could get a IH 4700 or 4300 with a higher hp DT466E and either an Allison MT643/653 or MD3060 and still have a reliable truck and a much better driving experience. I'd also highly recommend a truck with air brakes, parts seem to be more universal vs hydraulic brakes and likely to have better availability in years to come.
I gotta say, at first I was dismissive... but you got me thinking dangerous with this. Both. Hmmm. I think that's a real possibility.
Our cabover F7000 has an Allison 545 with a 170hp Ford 6.6. This setup works really well for us in steep off-road mountainous country as low range on the rear 2 speed is (if I recall 8.17). Excellent traction (can just ease into throttle nicely); have taken this truck/5 ton mini up steep (15-20%) badly rutted 4x4 trails into our camp. Dry weather only though. Wet ground is a no go. Basically a great bush truck…. Perfect to use around town, on the highway as stated…horrible. Grades on the highway and the internal tranny slippage is noticeable…engine at 2100 rpm best for tranny. Air brakes…a big yes to that!
Yep that lovely 545 trans. It was made for use with school busses, and for that, it's brilliant. For my use, not so great.
I think someone awhile back swapped the 545 for a 653 and liked it much better, and it's a much easier swap than anything else. I even have a 653 I could sell lol
Thats what I have found as well, makes a great bush rig with the super low gearing but….thats about it. Also I have found horrible fuel mileage when trying to go anywhere at ‘highway’ speed.
Just for fun, I looked up "mechanics bed" in my local area, and what I thought was "a pretty decent truck" 2010 pete- was $160,000. Seems the little peterbilts bring big $$$. I'm going to say, that's probably not in your budget. What kind of money do you want to spend? There's a lot of F550 and international stuff that's newer (2000's ish) and not near like the pete pricing. Here's the $160,000 2010- and while its a nice truck, its not new, and that's a lot of money.
The Allison is great for around town stuff. It was made for that and it's nice to just mash it down and not even think about gears. It doesn't lock up so I'm always losing a bit of what little HP that 466 gives me. Yes I'm running between 16 and 18K depending on what's in the truck. A drum of hydraulic fluid is almost 1000 lbs right there .
I have 2-3 pickups for 1 pickup, new trucks are junk and this is way cheaper and when I wait for parts I still keep going
That is a dream. I wish I had the bucks for it! She's a beaut. I'm 53, so I don't want to spend years in debt. I'd have to work way too hard to pay that big baby off.
If you have a mechanical 466 it’s easy to turn up the horsepower. As far as the 3116 goes they can be a good engine if serviced properly. They are easy to crank up the hp also. A well tuned 3116 will be pretty good on fuel too.
I cranked up the pump until she smoked a little and it started to get hot on climbs. I installed a holset turbo to bring up the boost a few psi and keep the EGTs down. The Holset is a little bigger than the Garrett, so there is a noticeable lag, but it's not bad at all. I used to get max 10psi of boost now I'm between 14 and 15 psi. That helped a bit. According to my "seat of the pants" dyno, I'd hesitate to say a gain of greater than 10hp.
My 2004 IH with a DT466E @ 215hp and MD3060 (with converter lockup) is pretty anemic. We have a lot of short hills and even empty it can't maintain speed on the hills. The gears are just too far apart. By the time it finally decides it's time to shift, it's lost so much speed that it has to drop 2 gears. I think it could be improved a lot with better programming. From what I've read, the newer DT466 engines (but before the Maxxforce branding) have variable vane turbos and some produce around 300 hp.
Used Construction, Agricultural Equip., Trucks, Trailers & more Transform your operations with our heavy equipment auctions! Browse through farm equipment, construction equipment, and more. ✓ Check online today! www.purplewave.com This is what I was bidding on. I stopped at around 7K. It went for north of 15K. Too rich for my blood, for how old it is.
I find very few bargains on purplewave any more. I used to buy a lot from that site, but the current bidders are kind of nuts. I'm not inclined to give top dollar on auction equipment I haven't looked at. No way would I have given that kind of money for a old GM.
It was insane. After I bailed, three other guys were just bidding each other up. They kept the auction going for an additional 30-40 minutes.
Is a transmission swap a viable option? I remember seeing an ad for a used but almost new service truck with a crane and all the goodies but the asking price was something like $245,000! On another forum there was a guy asking a ridiculous price for a decked out welding truck claiming he made nothing but money with it but decided to retire after 6 years, I think it was. Everybody saw through his BS story. It was pretty obvious he figured he was going to set the welding world on fire (no pun intended) with every conceivable tool a person could possibly have but it didn't pan out that way. He mentioned a few (low dollar) jobs he did that didn't require more than a welder, torch and a few hand tools. He was quite upset people questioned his claims of making nothing but money with the expensive rig. He spent probably $200K+ on the truck and all the tools and was trying to get $165K back on it after 6 or so years. I suggested he'd probably be better to sell things separately. If someone had $165K to spend, I think they'd rather set up their own truck the way they wanted and probably for a lot less. You need to build up your business over time instead of going all in right off the bat.
They are there you just have to be vigilant, two international daycabs with n14's just sold fir $2500 ish a piece.
I was holding off on the maintenance of my current rig hoping to pick up a new one. Now I got a bad blower motor, broken mirror, bald steers, burned out bulbs, a bad injector, fussy door latch, a badly torn seat... I guess I better love the one I'm with
Upgrade the auto while your at it
I'd love to put a 10 speed in there, but they're pretty spendy and I'd have to install a clutch and an air pump and rig up some kind of driveline brake for the parking brake. An MT653 can be had at a reasonable price and is easily rebuilt. It's an auto, but a much better trans than the AT545 that's in there now.
Buy my Mt 653
Say a number.
It's a sae 2 bell hooked to a Cummins so you might have to get a new torque converter but I'd take almost anything, idk $200-400?
ROAD TRIP! Hah. Yeah I'm in. Let me shake a day loose over the holiday. I'll PM you. Thanks!
And this one just went for 9, with a better crane, a compressor and a bobcat 250! DANG!! Used Construction, Agricultural Equip., Trucks, Trailers & more Transform your operations with our heavy equipment auctions! Browse through farm equipment, construction equipment, and more. ✓ Check online today! www.purplewave.com
If you call Wellers, they can direct you to exactly the right torque convertor for your engine/transmission configuration. Their Allison department in Grand Rapids is very knowledgeable, even on the older, non-current production models. https://wellertruck.com/ call their number and ask for the Allison department. Joel has been super helpful to me over the past 6 years when I needed information, parts, or even a reman transmission. I've dealt with a couple other guys there too who were just as knowledgeable.