Who is the winner of these heavy weights. The komatsu-160 ton with better traction L 2350-260 tons with biggest wheels on earth The loader has exactly 100 ton advantage but will it be enough to overpass the sheer power of the dozer in terms of pulling/pushing?I appreciate your oppinions pls comment.Ah and one more thing is there thick enough chain out there which can withstand such a beating?
Asphalt or dirt????
Dirt
I would put my money on the loader.
i would put my money...where ever it needed to be to get a ticket to watch this!!!
The loader will win.
My point is that loader's power is not concentrated in pulling/pushing but lifting.(unlike dozers)A guy who operated L 1850 (the model before 2350) told me that loaders got big pushing power only for a short period so they can fill the bucket fast enough.Judging from this i think that even if the loader manages to drag the dozer it will not be able to sustain this and the dozer will drag it.It is quite hard to pull a machine which has so wide tracs and big ground contact.
I'll stick with the dozer then. Put some chains on the tires, maybe closer....
Both machines are prime movers which means they will move their own weigh in material. By that definition the LeTorneau would push the dozer all over town. There are some variables such as tractive efforts. The ground pressure applied by the tire will probably be substantially more than the dozer which spreads the load out all along the length of the track frames. The only real complicating factor has to do with the application of electric drive motors to a stall situation when starting to push against the dozer. Stall those motors for a short period of time and the safeties would kick out. Now since the dozer only weighs 160 tons, and the loader is stated to be 260 tons, one would only have to set the brakes to stop the test. Please get it on YouTube if it ever happens.
That's easy. The loader would win. While the 575 is a big dozer, with tons of power, and tractive force, their transmission is quite sensitive. More than likely the dozer would grenade the transmission from the shock forces in this situation.
If the 575 will spin the tracks under normal conditions, then there's no danger to the transmission or other components in this contest. Flat, solid, dry ground....my moneys on the loader.
In normal operation The loader gains its traction as it starts to fill the bucket and crowd slightly to load the front tyres. If it can get under the dozer ( no! DONT flip it ) to get some load then I would agree it would shove that dozer all over the block! Hanging on a chain ( if one strong enough can be found....... DELETE .....better have a wire rope ) it would be very intresting, .........still hell of a dead weight for that dozer to pull. My moneys on the loader! whats the latest price ?
Baaah - rubber tires....leave them on my Porsche.
Well it seems more people think the loader has advantage.One thing is sure-both machines are really close in terms of sheer power and i think that it cant be determined that easily by just hanging them with a rope.It really matters how good the operator is.
the loader will win simply because it is heavier than the dozer but if the dozer can get dirt in front of the blade it will win i know from smaller dozers that its almost impossible to drag a dumptruck with a chain then the tracks cant get a grip but if you can get behind the truck and lift and push at the same time nothing can stop the dozer
Loader, I watched an 854k (992 size) wheel dozer outpull a D11 a month ago, ill stick with the loader.
I was going to say something similar myself. I've seen a 992C vs. a D11N, and the loader won hands down. Brian
excactly and thats because the dozer has no traction when it has no dirt in the blade
In a pulling or pushing match, it comes down to weight and horsepower. The matchup is not a fair one, with the loader being about 30% bigger. Now if you were to hold the match in some good wet clay, where the dozer gets full grouser penetration, and the loader tires skid on top, then it might just be even. Hard surface of any kind, rock, asphalt, concrete, ice, the loader will push or pull the dozer all over.
i wish you all would get video of these sumo matches you are sayin you have seen! share the wealth!
Depends on the "dirt" surface....topsoil or clay....disturbed or undisturbed. In a field ,I'd give the loader every chance of slipping & the dozer every chance of gripping. It's still a huge weight variation between the 2 combatants....operators & ground conditions are the main variables.:beatsme An interesting battle....:drinkup
yep
We have one of those 2350 Letourneau loaders at work and the only one in the land of Oz.When it goes to dig anything that is remotely hard and it senses wheel spin it will automatically go into reverse.This brings me to think that the 575 may have it over the 2350.This is only because the electric drive loaders will not keep the power to the wheels unlike a conventional mechanical drive machine. Shaun
Hey Shaun, Where are you working?Is it Coal or Gold? I'd like to have a shot on that loader.....do you have any pictures? Jim
The loader will win I gest! When is the show??? Frenchy
AH-HA.... Thanks for the info!! Still nobody wanted to take my money. Gonna be difficult to pull the Komatsu when you're going backwards..:lmao
Komatsu d575a vs L 2350: Caterpillar Performance Handbook... Edition 32. Well, there's probably some way to make this easier to read, but I don't know it... Look under Tractor Limitations... might need your glasses... LOL In theory, a machine can't push or pull... more than it weights... :cool2 OCR..
That's not the whole story. Friction plays a major roll here. As does traction and gearing. Do you think a locomotive weighs more than a 3 mile long train? The big player in this speculation is traction. What is the ground contact area difference between the 2?? I'll bet its HUGE! HMMMM - this has me thinking... How about if I scale down the competition a bit. My D6 weighs about 26,000 LBS. I don't have a wheel loader that weighs 42,622 (scale correctness), or else I would happily film this in spring. What machine would I specifically look for in that class - one of you guys must know?? I am sure I know another gearhead who would play with me just for laughs....
I talked to a guy who already operated l 1850 loaders.He told me that the dozer will win just like Shaunrh said.He mentioned that the loader can get a bit advantage in the beginning but cant hold it for too long.Anyway it is quite dependant match and it can hardly be determined who the real winner is.
No kompitition really the loader would stand no chance . Stock
maybe scale it down to a D6R and an volvo A25D and load it up to the 42.622 LBS or an simular dumptruck and i will bet every penny on the dumptruck but if you can get the blade full on the dozer it will outpull the truck for sure
pushoff The underfooting makes a big difference. I once saw a large dead machine a D9H could not budge moved buy a michigan 380 due to the underfooting at the same time I have seen a stuck cement truck pulled out buy a 650 John Deere that could be moved buy a newer deere 644 loader the BIG D
I'd put my money on the dozer mostly because it has the bigger footprint and lower ground pressure per square inch, giving it the better traction. the loader may have a weight advantage but if you look at how the tires are designed for the loader it leads me to belive that they are ment to spin when the loader is pulling or pushing something that would be just dead weight. So the fact that the greater possibility of losing traction in the loader before the dozer would is a big factor playing there. For a chain between the two just use an anchor chain off of a oil tanker ship, that should be strong enough. But anyway my money is still on the dozer for sure.
Right there, that should tell you something. A dozer uses it's weight to overcome the problem of lower ground pressure. If it has lower ground pressure, it will not have as much traction. So they make dozers heavier to give them more ground pressure and in turn more traction. I was just thinking about it. I know it's not the same in any way, but I used a WA700 to drag a dead D11R with the blade dragging to the shop about a month ago. I realise the dozer wasn't pulling back, but I did have to overcome the traction it's tracks and blade had on the ground. It had no problem dragging it, no wheel spin issues or the like, but it lacked the power to drag it in anything but 1st gear. Brian
Yeah the bigger the dozer is the heavier it is too. It also has very wide tracks on there too so like I said before the larger foot print is going to be an issue. The other fact is that the dozer has grouser shoes for the best grip so as long as those grouser shoes dig in as they should then the dozer will have no problem. My money is still on the dozer.
remember that when the tracks gets wider you will get lower ground pressure and with that lower traction NOT the other way around if you got to move something heavy with a dozer do it with the blade not a chain you will need the weight on the blade to get the traction to move the dozers weight the large footprint is NOT an advantage in this matter, only in soft ground
Well, we have to quantify what you have said. The larger footprint will not ALWAYS net you less traction. Traction loss at a given ground pressure will decrease in proportion to soil's water content.
wish my english were a little better i am not sure that i understand this:beatsme but if you are saying that the traction loss is not so big if the soil is wet and you have wide tracks then then i am with you on that but on good underfooting you will have best traction with as small tracks as possible
Yes, agreed.
But the D575 was designed with the larger tracks and with them most weight so that it would be able to maintain traction in most all conditions. And as long as the dozer has the weight to maintain the traction then it is able to push or pull almost twice its weight. There has always been advantages to having crawler tracks, but if the machine is to light then it would lose traction without a doubt but the heavier it is the better of a chance it has. The dozer has the lower ground pressure for compaction purposes, it doesn't mean that its going to lose traction. There is a reason why they called it a BULLdozer because it reminded them of the strength and tenacity of a bull. It has the strenght and grip to get the job done.
sorry i do not believe that it will pull or push twice its own weight unless you get some weight in the blade.. i am not sure its the same but my D6T will push twice as much as it can pull simply because you get more weight on the tracks when you are pulling something you wont be able to pullmore than your own weight
Traction! Ok, traction in this case makes all the difference. Here is some dry theory: A simple fact is that a vehicle can not make a bigger pulling force than its own weight. That is: Max. pulling force = traction force x coefficient of traction. Coefficient of traction can not be bigger than 1. So if traction would be the same for both vehicles obviously the heavier loader would win. As far as I know typical values for coefficient of traction in dirt for tracs is app. 0,8 and for tyres 0,5 - 0,6. So the 160 t. D575 would exert some 160 x 0,8 = 128 t. and the 260 t loader would give 260 x 0,5 = 130 t. Looks to me like a pretty even race! In this case neither vehicle would be lifting a bucket or a blade with any load in it, otherwise you would be artificially increasing the weight and hence the traction force.
thankyou hjolli that was the numbers i couldtnt remember :drinkup
Are you taking into account the fact that lower ground pressure=less compaction only while a larger foot print=better traction. Think to rock crawlers they lower their tire pressure so that they achieve a larger foot print for better grip or traction, at the sand dunes you lower your tire pressure for a larger foot print in the sand to have better grip and not have the tires cut through the sand but to roll along the top. With the tracks you get all of that all the time. And wouldn't having a full load of material in front of the dozer blade be too much for the dozer, it would have to work twice as much having to push the material in front and having to try and pull the loader would be too much stress on the dozer right?
i am just saying that the dozer cant pull as much as it can push simply because of the extra weight when it is pushing
you leave yer tires on yer porch? and they call me strange.
You know, I have all my spare 11/24's downstairs in my basement! Alongside various rubber track shoes - its about 50 degrees down there/no UV rays year round, and my wife's a champ. You have to take care of these tires when you can get them, nobody makes them anymore. I'll be happy to supply pics of said 11/24's in basement, if necessary.
I have an old straight-frame Michigan 280 wheel dozer which weighs 63,000 pounds. On good solid ground, I think it would pull a 40,000 pound dozer without much problem. Not a perfect comparison, but close.
It comes down to ground conditions, and operator. I've used crawlers to pull over three times their own weight, and once five times, on soft ground where the grousers have got a full bite. If the 575 could get moving before the loader gets grip, it would push it or pull it as far as it liked. However, if I was in the loader I'd give a little snatch to shear the soil under the 575's grousers, then put the power on.
Why not suggest this out ragous idea to Komatsu and Leternou to see if they might accually do this match in real life and put this arguement to rest so we can finally see who is right and who is wrong on whether or not the dozer or the loader will win in a sumo match or a tug of war. But I am going to say this again my money is still on the dozer.
Sounds like a "made for tv" special to me. If someone knew the right people to talk to, it would probably be possible to find some sponsors for it. In the end I really think the winner would be determined by the type of surface the two machines were on. If you want to get the most force exerted, put the loader on asphalt or concrete, and the dozer on ground just soft enough to get a full bite with the grousers. Be cool to put some type of device between them to measure the tensile force.
D575A: 1,050-hp V-12 Komatsu engine and an operating weight of 291,010 pounds (145 tons) to deliver a drawbar pull of 460,000 pounds. I'm waiting to hear back from a LeTourneau dealer on the rated rimpull on the L-2350. L-2350: 2,300-hp V-16 Detroit or Cummins engine and an operating weight of 578,000 pounds (289 tons). The LeTourneau isn't direct drive either, the 2,300 hp diesel engine runs a generator which powers electric motors which will out torque any direct drive system with ease. That's why freight trains are diesel/electric. The L-2350 has 140 tons advantage and way more torque, but can that 140 tons make up the difference between thick rubber treads vs thin tall metal grousers? Pavement the loader would drag that dozer until it ran out of fuel. Dirt may be another story but I'm still saying the loader would kick that dozers butt by a long shot. If I ever hear back from the LeTourneau dealer we may know for sure!
Hey i got a L-2350 and a D575A just sitting in my yard and rusting away if any body can find sompthing strong enough to hold them togeather, we might be able to see. but who wants to fly to alberta at this time of year awesome thread by the way Haha i wish
Neither one will win, because when one of them spins a track/wheel the other one will not be able to pull it up over the mound behind the track/wheels that was created. :cool2
For comparison it would be like hooking a D-6R to a 988B D-6R weighs about 22 ton, with 185 HP, and the 988B weighs 45 ton, with 375 HP This is nearly the same ratio of weight and horsepower difference. I have this combo, and I guarantee you that unless it was muddy, the 988 loader would pull the D-6 all over the place. Mud is the only condition I would give the dozer any hope in. If the dozer could get full grouser penetration, and the loader would sit on top and slide instead of digging in, the dozer MAY have a chance. Double the weight and double the power, and the results should not be a surprise. The hardest part would be hooking them together with something that would not break.
i don't know if it matters much or not but one time i had a brand new deere 650j dozer and a newer deere 644h and with a bit of dirt between us i was able to push the loader around even with the diffs locked, Until the loader picked the dozer off the ground DONT tell my dad tho !
650J LGP Net Horsepower @ Rated rpm 99 (74) @ 2200 oporating weight 19,750 (8959) 644K Net Rated Power hp (kW) @ Rated rpm 199 (148) @ 2200 oporating weight 40,036 (18160
Thanks for posting that -pretty much what I thought/said.
I like the sound of a tv special. It would make for great family oriented television. I think that the kids would get a great kick out of it too. And hey DEERETIME if you want to that would be great if you do have these machines for this off the wall idea. I think that alberta ca would be great this time of the year. I just have one question for all of you. Are you on board with the idea of getting the manufacturers in on this and possibly see if we can get it as a tv special too? If so then lets try this then.
That would be awesome but i dont have either one of them my biggest dozer is only an 8 tho sorry to get ur hopes up
I would be more than happy to volunteer my wheel dozer for a scaled down version of this match. Looks like the dozer needs to weigh about 51 percent of the wheeled machine's weight. So, if my wheel dozer weighs 63,000 pounds, the track dozer should weigh about 32,000 pounds. I don't know what size cat that would be, D6-D7?
Well - its 61%, not 51%, in the original poster's match. So you will need a 38,500 pound dozer to equal the original question.
I was using the #'s that Vantage posted, 291,000 and 578,000.
But if you use the actual operating weights, all of the numbers will be different. It's actually 43.1%. The listed operating weight of an L2350 in standard configuration is 586,000 lbs, or 293 tons. The listed operating weight of a D575 is 252,600 lbs, or 126.3 tons. So to answer the question of what size dozer you'd need to compete with the 63,000 lb wheel dozer, it would be a 27,153 lb track dozer. Would a 27,000lb track dozer pull around a 63,000 lb wheel dozer?........... not likely. Figure into the current Cat lineup, a rough match would be the 988H to the D6T. Do you honestly believe that a D6T is going to drag around a 988H?
Why not ask Cat? send them a mail and post the reply if for nothing else ,we might get a laugh from them....
Hello there, I can tell you that when I was an apprentice diesel fitter in a mine in Queensland in the late 1970's, the guys put a 834 rubber tyred dozer and D9H blade to blade on a hard packed haul road and although not a witness to the event I was told the 834 squatted right down flattening the tyres out and held its own with the D9H. I think many variables come into play when attempting this. Thanks for sharing.
Well , since THAT is almost a 50% change from the ORIGINAL post, no - that is too much. Was he really off by that much by saying 160 and 260 tons?
I guess we wouldn't know the exact weights unless we somehow weighed both machines(not very practical). Also, the guy who hauled my wheel dozer to me when I bought it said it should weigh 48,000 pounds, but he weighed it @ a state scale on his lowboy and it was 63,000. The only explaination I can come up with is that the tires are water filled. I also wonder if the manufacturer's stated weight might be without the blade?
Yeah, he was. The D575 has a listed standard operating weight of 252,600 lbs, or 126.3 tons. The L2350 has a listed standard operating weight of 586,000 lbs for the standard lift version, or 293 tons. So a difference of 166.7 tons. This is why a little research is a good idea before stating something as fact.
Since I kept on finding different operating weights after Brian posted his numbers and I went back to check I finally just went right to the Komatsu page. They are saying even more! 336,420 lbs and 1,150 net HP. But then when you click on "specs" it says: Tractor weight 252,600 lb / 114580 kg including rated capacity of lubricant, coolant, full fuel tank, operator, and standard equipment. Ground pressure 23.0 psi 1.62 kg/cm² / 159 kPa I never heard anything back from LeTourneau which is sad as we'll only ever get to speculate without hard numbers to back our theories up. I still say the loader wins.
That's about typical of Komatsu, they can't even get their own story straight...lol. Brian
saw a Cat 992B & D9H with a rope between them the D9 had no show
Terex 82-80 Dozer I know this has nothing whatsoever to do with this Topic, but as a new member on the Forum, I am restricted to replying to existing posts only until I have replied 3 times before I can start my own post. So I'll put my new Topic here & later, I will start a New Topic.......sorry! A model building friend of mine wants to continue his range of 1:50 scale Euclid TC-12 Dozers by going on to the next step, the Terex 82-80 dozer, the one with the twin Hydraulic rams on the nose, and with the Euclid/Terex Rippers, NOT the Ateco Rippers.. WHY.. he needs a few photos of how the rippers are attached to the rear as opposed to the Ateco type and a few measurements here & there so that he can build this model as true to the real machine as is humanly possible,,,,any help with where-abouts of one of these machines will be greatly appreciated by Bruce and make this project possible. Thanks Peter Western Australia
I honestly believe the Komatsu D575 would beat the LeTourneau L-2350 in a tug of war. In this scenario, machine weights have got nothing to do with it. Its all about tractive effort, ground pressure and the surface area of the machine that is in contact with the ground at any one time. I do not know the tractive effort of either machine, but I do know people who work for both Komatsu Tech Services and LeTourneau so I will endeavour to find out. I also know that LeTourneau's have a LINCS load monitoring system, which if you pick up too heavy a load with the bucket, or you have reached maximum tractive effort, you will get a warning alarm and cannot propel the machine any further until the effort has been reduced, or until you have emptied the bucket. I have also heard of LeTourneau L-1850's being pushed into the face by a Caterpillar D11R because they are so hopeless in hard rock faces. And for the record, Komatsu WA1200-3 > Entire LeTourneau range. But thats a whole different argument! Edit: For a rough idea before I find out the actual specs of the machines in question here I found the tractive effort specs for a WA1200-3 and a D474-5EO. They are as follows: WA1200-3 - 1127 kN 115000 kg D474-5EO - ~ 1150 kN 125000 kg Edit #2: D575-3 - ~ 2200 kN 230000 kg L-2350 - Still unknown
I side with you Chris5500 on this one. The dozer should in theory win both matches.
Peter, Didn't the IH museum in Southern WA have a Terex Dozer ? I think it was featured on one of those tractor show videos in the 90s. Jim
Tractive effort and ground pressure are directly related to the weight of the machine. The higher the weight of the machine, the higher the possible coefficient of friction, which in turn will allow for higher tractive effort. The same basic idea applies to ground pressure. The higher the weight of the machine, the more weight applied to the surface area, and therefore, the higher ground pressure. So, sorry, but that kind of blows the whole comment out of the water.
Komatsu d575a vs L 2350 loader (sumo match): Coefficient of friction: More than anybody needs, or, wants to know... lol But check that BAM (material) out... very interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?fulltext=Search&search=coefficient of friction OCR...
Ground pressure is directly related to machine weight AND ground contact area. Increasing the size of the contact area on the ground in relation to the weight decreases the ground pressure and decreasing the size of the contact area will increase the ground pressure. Never the less, the tractive effort of a D575A-3 is 230000 at 1.62 kg/cm2 - thats the spec. Tractive effort is directly related to the engine torque and final drive ratio and of course the coefficient of friction at any particular time. Unfortunatly, LeTourneau do not print the specs we are after on their product brochure so we cannot compare. When I said weight had nothing to do with it, what I was trying to say was the fact a machine weighs 300ton doesnt necessarily mean the tractive effort is going to be higher than a machine weighing 200ton as some people in this thread are lead to believe. The fact remains that until we get the tractive effort spec of the 2350 we wont know, so the case is still unresolved! P.S. I still like you alco
I,m gunna go a little off topic too with the ground pressure thing but i was having a discussion one day about large diggers sitting up on benches and someone chimed in saying no way an RH400 if it was made as a digger could sit up on a bench, it would be to heavy and while on paper it would be say a 1000 ton machine the ultimat footprint via shoe width would determine its ground pressure and i am sure it could be made to be around the same as any large digger 996,5500 etc. Mind you would be a ride and a half walking her up the bench, done it in a PC5500 enough times and you have to have your wits about you.
I too have also heard that O&K were not confident with an RH400 backhoe due to the fact they didnt think a bench would be capable of supporting it, though I do believe in what your saying about ground pressure and fitting her with some clown shoes. Unfortunatley I cant say I have ever climbed a bench in a 5500 but I sure as hell would love too, just thinking about it puts a smile on my face
Hahaha, I'm glad to hear it, I still like you too!
The 9 driver obviously forgot to put the handbrake on ( Kelly ) fftopic I was struggling to get out of a dried up PFA ( pulverised fuel ash ) logoon with a Case 988 duck that I had gone a bit too far with when a tracked 20t 360 exc came down to pull me out. I just laughed but the foreman and driver were adamant that if we locked buckets he would have me out in a second. We locked buckets and I pulled him right in until I ran out of dipper movement he had no GRIP on the slippery surface.
Nothing to see here.