Who has pictures of the largest dozer made? I seen something on Modern Marvals the other day that showed the worlds largest dozer. It was not a D-11. It was made by Kamatsu I think. It sure made the D-11 not look so big anymore. It also had flat tracks on it. It wasn't a high track model like the Cats.
The largest dozer in production is the Komatsu 575 Super dozer. However, the largest Dozer ever made goes to the ACCO Dozer. 575 next to a D11 http://www.album-mmt.it/data/media/127/d575_10.jpg ACCO Dozer http://www.monsterbagger.de/cgi-bin/galerie/produkt.cgi?ct=Raupe&md=second&id=6&min=&max=
Just so you know, that appears to be a D10 next to the 575, not a D11. Brian
Acco Does anybody know the ACCO story? Whas this dozer and the grader the only things they made or are they still making machines? Great looking machines both of them:notworthy:notworthy
that acco is huge , i wish the specs were in english, if thats what they were along the sides of the pics. after 2 months of running a d10r and 9l somebody called in sick and i got to run the 11r i couldnt stop looking down at the tracks because they looked so big and wide, those tracks on the acco look twice as wide as the 11rs. i agree that looks like a 10.
There are a few threads on Acco here:
My source for the photo says it was a D11, only going but what I am told. However, yes, that Acco is huge.
I'll still take an 11 over a Komatsu. I've run a 475, it's a horse no doubt. But I'll still take a Cat, for better or worse.
That Acco is truly amazingly BIG... Did I say BIG I meant HUGE..
That is an 11 in the picture because up until the T the 10's don't have 2 stacks but something about it doesn't look right I have a picture of an 11 with my wife standing in front of the blade I just don't know how to post it
They even had two sets of planetaries for the drive sprockets, 4 in total, that was very smart, less wear on the teeth and rails, but waaaay more moving parts.
A 10 R has 2 stacks. I'll get a picture for you when I get back to work in a week.
Check out the second red link in my signature for help with posting pictures.
Interesting I have never seen an R with 2 stacks and Macaninch has a bunch of them the T's have that goofy double stack for emissions
Definately a D10R, the goofy 2 stacks are not for emissions at all, the new engine layout determined that, The D10 of early 80,s had twin stacks and emmisions were not the reason it had it, V type engine with the turbo,s on each side is why twin stacks.
The 10 T has a stack that as it comes out of the engine compartment almost doubles in width and then as it gets to the top it narrows back up I was told it was for emissions. The 10r's they have are single turbo one stack and look just like the v12's in a 9L. I am going to attempt to further bring myself out of the stoneages and learn to post pictures here tomorrow and I will show you what I mean. If you go to other heavy equipment and look under macaninch pull type scrapers there are several good pictures of 10 r's and 10 t's:Banghead
http://www.mcaninchcorp.com/equipment.asp picture at the top of the page of a whole fleet of single stack 10r's
ive looked at the pic so many times and i just cant see how its an 11. it just dont look right
Here is the pics I promised
Most D10R's have a single stack. That being said, the later machines had the twin stacks. This was in the later machines produced, so the newest D10R's have two stacks instead of one. You can see from the slope of the sheet metal beside the cab in the side by side picture, that the side of the fuel tank and sheet metal around the filter housing is almost vertical. That is indicative of the D10R in this case. The D11R has a very defined slope to it. The D11R also doesn't have the flared stacks on it, but the late model D10R with the two stacks does. Brian
Good pictures ,no matter if it is a 10 or 11 !!!!!!!!! Thanks for sharing:usa
Cat D13 Isn't it a D13 if you add a D4 to a D9? A D11R and a D11N Sorry Chaz don't show your Dad this. D11 weighs about 212,000, Kom D575 about 316,000
Two stacks Here is ours D10R 2004 mod. This one has two stacks.:usa:usa
Got one pic of that one too That dude there could not be more happy if the most beatyful women in the world offer him something good
Does that R have GPS grade control on it or just an eye in the sky
Yes... All our dozers have GPS. And almost every excavators has it to.
I think I posted this before, I can't remember. It goes here!
New to me.... That looks like a extra wide blade on that thing.
That's what they call a carry blade never seen one in real life but those are good pics thank you for sharing them:usa
That's actually what we call a reclamation blade, not a carry blade. They are usually built for dozing off piles of loose material or spreading. They are not meant for heavy digging types of work. Brian
Right you are gents... we use this beast at the reclamation site. It is a coal blade that has been modified. The top of the blade used to go to the top of the hood, thats with out the rock guard. This animal would push it, but the finals and tranny would over heat, so they trimmed it down to the existing height.
Largest dozer????????????????????????? Hi, landrvrnut22. The Acco dozer is only the heaviest dozer built to date, NOT the most powerful. That honour goes to the Western 2000, a diesel-electric 4wd jigger built for Western Contracting in 1963, for use on the Milburn dam in Kansas. It was worked on various jobs until 1981. I understand it was scrapped. You can find more about it here.
largest dozer i was working for a genral earth work contractor called c.watts and sons construction hauling there equipment and they were doing a landfill cell in mckinny texas and there was a kamatsu just like that there the blade swallowed my whole truck and we tore it down and loaded it out on a train to boston. it was supposedly the biggest dozer in the world
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums dozer hand! :drinkup
Biggest Dozer. Hi, Dozer Hand. Welcome to the forum. That 'Kummagutsa' dozer may well be the largest dozer in the world - - - - currently in production. That would be the 'Kummagutsa' D575. However, the Acco dozer, at 183 tons, is almost 20% heavier and, at 1,350 horsepower, is almost 20% more powerful as well. The Western 2000 mentioned above is also both heavier, at 170 tons, and more powerful, at 1,600 horsepower, than the D575. The Western 2000 was also a diesel-electric drive. Both the Acco dozer and the Western 2000 were one-offs, not production run machines, so the big 'Kummagutsa' wins as the biggest production run dozer.
re: alrighty thank ya thanks for the welcome.
don`t ya just hate it when deas comes up with all that goods like that .....LOL
What kept you??????????? Hi, Greeniron. Welkum too ther 4um. What kept you? We've been here with 'baited' breath for months, waiting for you to answer all the questions about the green iron. LOL. How are your jolly green giants coming along? Making any progress?
Widest Shank HERE IS A&S KHAN RIPPING IN CALIFORNIA RIPPING WITH A 21 INCH WIDE SHANK..ITS THE WIDEST CUSTOM MADE SHANK THAT I KNOW OF
Welcome to HEF Joey Kahn :drinkup Preview Post..... It helps..
Where is the pic????
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums Joey Khan! :drinkup Please refrain from posting in all caps. It could be considered shouting and it makes your post difficult to read.
For future reference we don't permit HTML here, sorry.
Hay Joey I will post the link for you okay, hope you dont mind. Cool video Thanks.... http://www.youtube.com/v/OsCLBS870nY&rel=1
Cat D10R with twin stacks vs single stack The early D10R ser # prefix 3KR were single stack. The later D10R ser# prefix AKT had the twin stacks. Dug.
pictures with acco dozer Hey guys just wanted to point out that in the picture sitting in the middle with the ACCO dozer is a FIAT-ALLIS 41 with a CAT D10 on the other side all three have owned the (worlds largest crawler) award in their days of glory. Wish i had the money to buy the 41 its been in storage with that Acco for a while used to be for sale even has a kelly ripper but shipping price would kill would be nice to have the big 575 Komatsu in the picture and the tc-12 Terex.
Hey hows it going guys?Wow its been a while since I been on this forum. I apologize, though I will get you guys some pictures of some pretty amazing ripping and D11's. I just took them a few days ago
Widest Shank that I know of! 21 inches wide! http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsCLBS870nY http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLzZNuuS0zU
What is ag ripping? http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb313/gooodyboyz559/Slide1.jpg
Ag ripping is where they tear up rock and hard soil to prepare for orchards. I don't know if they do that anywhere else besides CA. Great pics Joey! Good to have you along here! :cool2
Thanks...... More specifically J. Khan, for an example -what is the depth, width and pattern to achieve the correct growing medium for say an orange tree? Does the species of tree dictate a specific ripping spec'? Just curious, as I have never seen this before.
The largest D11 made is the D11R CD with a Coal Blade. Can push 80 odd metres of coal in one go. 8 metres wide x 4 metres high. Can't drive it by sight, need GPS to drive them. If I can find a pic, I'll post it.
Something similar, but has 5 tyne M/S ripper http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=IKh2351eyQ4
GPS to run a D11??????????? Hi, Spanrz. That is a pretty broad statement to make, that you can't operate a D11 Carrydozer coal blade by sight and that you NEED a GPS to operate it. Try me sometime.
D11R CD coal blade Deas Plant,i think this is the blade Spanrz is talking about,it looks a lot bigger than a standard CD
Bigger it is. Hi, RolyD8K. Thanks for the photos. I was aware of the blades that Spanrz was writing of. At 4 metres high, they are substantially higher than a standard Carrydozer blade but the operator is also sitting fairly well up in the cab of a D11 too. I have run a Cat D11N with a 9-foot high cola blade and it would stand wet coal well over 4 feet above the moldboard. I can imagine that that blade would stand wet coal even higher but it is also amazing how you can get used to restricted visibility in a machine. F'rinstance how do tank drivers or the operators of the armoured dozers get on when the hatches are battened down? Just my 0.02.
Yep, RTL's D11R's. I have seen these machines, though not fully equipped. One of them got traded and now work's at Issac Plains mine in QLD (AUS) (under Cooks Constructions) My boss at work, talked CAT into making a large coal blade for the D11R equipped with a 5 shank ripper tyne. I have seen the original plans and designs of it. These blades were the largest blade ever made (at the time) by CAT. There are 5 of these in the Latrobe Valley. I think there is another one in the wind. All these machines have GPS. The only problems I hear the D11R's have, is broken head bolts and something about the hot exhaust manifolds.
Not the biggest For a Komatsu 455 in 1983 may be it was. 26 ft wide 8 ft high.
Does this one qualify, 45 feet wide? Rn'R.
Fair, just fair. Hi, R-n-R. That is a root rake, is it not? It would certainly cover the ground a bit quicker than the 12 foot rake I had on a Cat 941 up at Hervey Bay in the mid-1990's.
It is Deas, I just thought I would throw it in for good measure. It is pushing hundreds of kilometres of fencelines on a station in the Territory that I mentioned in another thread. Rn'R.
Can you imagine the fun..........????????? Hi, R-n-R. Can you imagine the fun you could have if you rocked up with that jigger to push coal alongside the 'Kummagutsa' D475 in the photos above yours? Assuming of course that the wings would stand the strain. Even if you never pushed a bladeful of coal, the looks on the faces of the locals oughta be worth bottling. LOL.
There is no doubt about that at all, Deas. I do not see why it wouldn't push coal, because I don't think that would put as much strain on the wings as a blade full of 40' Lancewood trees or the reasonable sized Paperbarks and Ghost Gums that were being cleared. I think perhaps the bigger problem would be putting the power to the ground. Rn'R.
holy crap there is some big machines pictured here, you'd want to hope no body parked a ute in front of you, bit of a bump and out the back comes 1 compacted ute.
Big Dozers These are a couple of pics of D11 R carrydozer. The mine I'm at has 4 of these dozers. They are used to push brown coal to feeder breakers then onto conveyers. I think they can push around 90 m3 per push.
Yeah, that's the ones I was talking about earlier (RTL). Nice pics. We got the 1st trade in from there (minus the 5 shank ripper and blade), it's now working up at Isaac Plains, QLD. Is that Morwell site??
What is the hose reel over the drive sprocket in the first picture?
bloody hell there huge rippers!!!
Its at the Yallourn open cut, its next door to Morwell.
The hose reel is for hosing down the machines each day. They hook up to a water main. If they dont the coal dust catches fire. If you dont the pics shows what happens.
That makes sense. I saw the reels but no tanks on the machine anywhere, couldn't figure it out. Thanks!
I,ll bet that barbecued one is the one that Spanrz has now got!!!
Na that one is accuatly still working, they put a new cab on fixed her up as good as new.
I've been a coal miner for 20 yrs and have never seen a coal dust fire on a piece of equip. The only time I ever seen a coal dust fire was right before a blast, as we were pulling the equip. out of the pit, the dust didn't have time to settle before the shot. When the blast went off, the dust ignited. Nothing was damaged but it was pretty cool for those of us who seen it. What type of coal is being mined where these fires have happend?
Hey, I think I recognise this guy. Good to see you over here. Brian
We are mining brown coal, totally different to the black coal. On very hot days the coal can accually self ignite, that is why there are water pipes over the whole mine. The dust can settle in and around the engine bays and catches fire.
Hey Brian how are ya? Thanks for the tip, very cool site!!! As for the brown coal, has anyone ever been burnt or blown up by it. What I'm trying to say is, do you have a lot of close calls when working with this stuff?
Its not really that bad but in the right conditions it can get dangerous eg hot, windy weather, if you don't get onto it straight away. The mine next door burnt for nearly a week about 2 years ago. Lots of fire trucks and men to put that one out.
Yeah ... Thermal coal will burn pretty well and will smoke 24/7. Driving through the snowy Mountain's .. find Smoke and Dry spots in the snow bank .... Thats coal Burning.
that is definatley a 10 look at the single stack
You lucky bugger Deas, mine is only 10 ft on the D4! But all jokes aside that big fella would have been great doing new land work a few years ago. I now use a small one on a 920, not that they allow us to clear over here anymore but its still handy for fence lines ect.
First hi since i am new here.I am fan of big machines especially bulldozers but i dont have any personal exeprience with them.I have seen many videos about d575 and other dozers but i cant get it exactly how powerful they are.Can someone tell me can a d575a push down 1 meter in diameter tree or drag huge dump truck?These machines are going in far bigger category than d11r which is like 40 tons lighter.I am quite interested to know what feats of strenght they can do.Here in my village there is a 60 ton bulldozer komatsu and it was hanged up for a tank t 72 with a metal rope and the dozer outpulled the tank with ease.I can't imagine what a d575a can do.Sure its not a toy to play with but everyone has crazy ideas and freaked imagination when sees that machines of pure power.
Actually is is just a Cat D9
I'm pretty sure it's a D10R. What makes you think it's a 9?
bulldozer acco? great machinery and is bigggggggggggggggg
THe top of the rad guard has sloped corners, all d10's had square corners.
I see what you're saying, but it just looks too big to me to be a D9.
Hallo, We are the actually ovner of ACCO dozer ( ACCo Umberto was our friend) and tomorrow the dozer will be move at our home , for our collection of tractors. You can see it al my profile facebook: Robertodavide Valerio. Arrivederci
Thank you for sharing that with us. I am glad to see it is going to a good home. What about his other creations? Are you able to save more? Welcome to HEF!
Welcome to HEF valerio!:drinkup
dozer acco unlucky no, almost all the machinery built by Acco are sold, stay here only the biggreder but it hasn't more the blad and the double wheel. Instead, in very good conditions and ready to work is the medium greeder ACCO.
I am quite interested to know whether the ACCO dozer can actually push more than komatsu d575? The acco is way too old i think even though it is heavier.
the age doesnt mean anything, i like the fiat-allis 41 setting next to it, my 41 with a dirt blade would out push the d10 n we had and it was a total rebuild from cat twin tilt u blade blade to blade my strait semi u was actually little bigger i just think the my 41 worked better slot dozing down hill heavier 160,000lbs vs 147,000
that's the largest Dozer in the world http://www.hitachi-cat.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/9.jpg
lucky all the coal around it did'nt catch also
i think it has already been mentioned but...that ACCO is huge !!! i think it would be bigger in the flesh...i love these machines..the only thing is they are too expesive for the local bloke to go out and buy one there wouldnt be much that could stop that ACCO ,i think it could move anything maybe ...one could only guess what kind of price tag would be on it...out of trivial interest i'd like to know.
From what i understand and i could be wrong ,1st time this month is that they couldn't keep finals in the 41 they wouldn't hold up ! And you say ?
Hi guys, I am chasing parts for a International TD25B or a complete machine. Needing final drive parts if any one can help that would be great Thanks
I have been looking after 2 komats'u D575A-1 dozers in recent months in the coal mine here in NZ, there aint nothing that will rip like one of these man, i used to be a cat man, and i see the attributes of each machine, but the D11T that is here on site would not even sniff its ass, and we have wound approx 150HP off the fuel pumps, otherwise it eats final drives like they were cotton candy. for ripping tight rock, theres no contest.
I first heard this comment more than 30 years ago when a specialst ripping contractor (the Brit's here will remember Stokey Plant) was at a mine site where I was working. Their sales pitch went "Why blast rock you can rip" - to which the Mine Manager responded "I'll put it another way. Why the ***k would anyone consider ripping rock you can blast?". 30+ years later and the adage still holds true............
Nige, yes i aggree, but often when the blast has been planned by a university graduate who doesn''t know a dozer from a drill, and you are mining a fault line, you will inevitably have patches of unshot rock.
Ha - Blasting "Engineers". A problem with which I am not necessarily unfamiliar .......... my old man was a self-taught blaster. I was loading blastholes with explosive probably when I was about 10 or so. Now unless you have the relevant piece of paper you're not allowed anywhere near a blast, let alone pulling the trigger on one.
575 ripping vs a D11T, hardly an apples for apples comparison so what is the point of the comparison? if it was a 475 the comparison would be relevant. HP has little to do with ripping i might also add, the jockey in the seat has everything to do with it.
I worked at coal mine where they had 3 11n's and 2 475 komatsu's. we ripped side by side on coal and virtually no difference. The difference I seen was that when you operated either if your machine went down you were put on one of two 637 scrapers that were there. I primarily ran the 475 and had very little seat time on scraper! In fact the shop on site was nicknamed the CatHouse! Ha! Very noticeable difference between the two in realiabilty all machines bought new and ran to 10,000 hrs then rebuilt and ran 10000 more. All machines within 1000hrs of each other in terms of age so little diff there!
What about the Fiat Allis Fd50 wasn't that a tuned up version of 41?
Funny how pretty much every other operation that runs them side by side, says pretty much the polar opposite of what you claim.
Yair . . . Gavin84w . Never were truer words spoken . . . just look at some of the ripping videos on the tube. The sad thing is from the audio and comments you'd think they were doing okay. Cheers.
Depends what you mean alco? It is funny alco isn't it! But I do not have cat tattooed to my butt so I do not favor them one bit! Do the komatsu rip better? Doubt it! I own one doesn't rip any better? But they do seem to hold together and that's what puts money in my jeans. If Cat had a rep of longevity my yard would be full, just like years ago before I clued in there is other quality equipment in the world !oh and alco what polar operations we talking about? I was with fording coal do I need to post some service records? We once had a team meeting with cat as their brakes kept failing on the 11's and they said it was specific to our mine, and they were not going to warranty anymore? They got all the operators together and wonderd what we could do different to save brakes? I said has the 475 had issues? Reply was no! Do they do the same job? Reply was yes! Then I would say that sums it up! Tell cat to fix their machine or take it home! It was never ending but because everyone was so fond of cat they were still good machines? Ha what a joke. This even turned me off their brand even more. I don't wanna even start on final drive trouble !
Steve, there are pockets of good news and bad news stories with all brands, makes, models and if you get the wrong make machine in a certain operation it can look like a lemon but there are many, many variables that come into play with these things. Good product support reps with application knowledge, product knowledge will find the answers, one,s with less experience may not know to ask the right questions or even know and understand what they are looking at and that is just the beginning. 1 thing i would ask you is, what makes the machine that is much more expensive to purchase initially (D11) sell at 3 to 1 worldwide to the 475? I know the answer but am keen to hear yours.
I've been down this trail before. First things first! I will give Cat credit for one important thing, and that is operator comfort. They have over the years caterd solely to the operator making their machines extremely comfortable to operate. 2 they have spent tons of money on logistics and parts distribution. If you needed a part for cat it was usually available overnight. Komatsu, Dresser, jd and others not nearly as good. I have nearly ran every brand of dozer built and I can honestly say there are some very good tractors out there, that not only outwork them but also outlast. Cat has done a excellent job of marketing and product support that has put them where they are. If IH or dresser had had their marketing and parts systems in place such as cat did in sure the industry would look alot different today! Komatsu has developed a quality product over the years but still has not managed the customer support and logistics of Cat. Is their product of less quality? I would say not. When we had the first 475 a models the engineers were out to the mine from Japan and wanted to know how to improve their product. I took them over to the 11's and said copy everything you can about the operators station. The less you can get the operator to complain about the more you will sell!! Have a look at the new cabs offerd now! They had a solid product they just have to sell it to operators that have been running the big C's all their lives with no real competition. I have had Cat, fiat allis, dresser, dressta, komatsu, jd, case, Hyundai , hitatchi Volvo in the history of my company and can honestly say some of the best have not been Cat! So I guess the answer to your question would be product support !We have run the Fiat dozers this last while and I can honestly say have been some of the best we have had! Is there product support? No!but we work on our own stuff and prepare for any foreseeable problem!this is not something a mining corp can do but it still does not make the Fiat a lesser quality machine. The other manufactures are coming on strong and this does nothing but help the rest of us in terms of pricing and quality.As far as pricing would go at the time Cat and Komatsu were nearly identical in price!
Interesting how most Dozer threads turn to a Cat vs Komatsu "forum" - having worked for both OEM's, operated & owned both brands neither products are perfect or much better than the other......whilst a lot depends on application/right spec or size for the job, at the end of the day an operator will make or break either brands reputation. IMO: - The things that keeps Cat on the top of the customer shopping list on most part are the "legend" & generally far superior parts availabilty/product support, Komatsu for whatever reason just does not seem capable of provisioning adequate parts support in any market (as everything you can get ex-nationally stock from Cat seems delayed ex-Japan for Komatsu). - In Australia dealing with Komatsu is traumatic, from the latest CEO down they talk endlessly about customer "support" but fail to grasp the most basic concept "to live the dream..." at least the Cat dealers have some semblance of a professionally run organisation & customer relationship. - As for the D11 vs 475 debate, I'd rather invest my hard earned $'s owning a 475, the trouble is it's then hard to attract/keep good operators who prefer the ride/ergonomics of the D11.........& if you have a Komatsu locally here you then are forced to deal with Komatsu Australia which couldn't make a timely decision or "call" to save their life (let alone your business.......) and where any sense of customer urgency is a completely alien concept...... - The best marketing tool Cat has in Australia is certainly Komatsu Australia's incompetence ......but if Komatsu ever gets it's people & support infrastructure commensurate with its product offering then Cat may have some real competiton..........
I'm far from being a Cat fan myself for most of their products, however, I do have some that I honestly feel are the best machines on the market in their categories. This is what I was talking about. Personal experience has shown the opposite to be true for me. While some Komatsu products are good, solid machines, most are just not up to the long term use I expect to see. For instance, we had a 475 that had a measly 25,000 hours on it when it was finally retired due to incredibly poor availability. At the same time, we had D11s running with 90,000 hours on them, that were getting in the neighbourhood of 20% better availability, without a single rebuild....just component replacement. I can't see how that could possibly show the Komatsu as holding together better, in any way, shape or form. This is not an isolated situation either, as I can recall many, many poor performing Komatsus, with not nearly enough hours on them to be worn completely out.......and those weren't just dozers. If you'd care to read what I posted, I never said anything about polar operations. I said polar opposites. As in exactly opposite to your claims. The large Komatsu dozers are good machines when new, rough, but good. But as with pretty much all the other Komatsus I have worked on, and operated, as they get some hours on them, the reliability drops off sharply, whereas Cat's large dozers seem to take a much more gradual trip to unreliability. I'm certainly not saying Cat's large dozers are perfect (they definitely are not!), but I do feel they are superior to Komatsu's offerings in the same category.
Alco very interesting for sure! 90,000 hrs that is unbelievable the machines here at that many hrs of any brand would be in no better shape than the coal we push up! Like I said earlier all machines were bought near the same time so basically new at same time. We ran both machines to 10 000 then they were taken in and stripped to frame and what ever needed replaced was. Then the same was done again, I do not see the cost feasibility of doing this 9 times. It is interesting to note at this hr mark our komatsu's usually needed very little replacement parts. Here is what I usually observed when the komatsu's rolled in. The mentality around the mine was cat or nothing so they typically received the most abuse. My dozer was shared by a few of us that actually liked them and ours stayed running. I would hear it all like they won't work where it's soft? Proved them wrong? They won't push as much ya right! And as you say rougher?the early machines that were non bogie may have been slightly but I had a hard time noticing. It is funny that cat has this reputation you say but I have never seen it yet. I currently own 15 machines and zero are cat , we had 8s and 7s and you just got into a habit of final drive replacement in the spring. I guess the 7 was a little more hearty but 8 s were a joke. It was at this point we turned away. Maybe you are in different soils but the rock at this mine was not in favor of the 11's in any way.I have never heard of the hrs you claim I would definately like to hear of others with this amount. You see almost all big dozers here (10-11 size) on the auction block at 20-25,000 hrs on them. Most of the smaller machines are 10-15,000 or less. One good freind of mine works pipeline and they run nothing but Cat, he says they buy new and dump at 5-7,000 hrs before the trouble begins. He has no reason to lie as he has the letters Cat tattooed to his butt.
Yair . . . alco . When you say component replacement at high hours do you mean a routine change out of (say) engine, transmission and finals? If so what hours do you get on those components . . . like I mean to say it sounds a bit like the axe on a woodpile that's had two heads and five handles in the last thirty years. When Nige spends 42% of a new tractor cost on a twenty-day rebuild on a D10 do the hours accrued after the refurbishment get added to the total of what the tractor did? . . . . if so quoting numbers like twenty-five and ninety thousand hours is meaningless. In my world it's component hours that count. Cheers.
i've heard the term "zero hours rebuild"...
Depending on everything typical D11R components will see engine life in the order of 14000hrs, trans/bevel gear maybe a bit higher and the torque would be done when you do the engine as you lift them out together, sure some components will last longer in some sites and some will not last as long, thats how Cat come up with there centreline numbers to give customers an idea on what LCC can be achieved or budgetted for, these numbers are not rocket science as there are more than a couple D11R,s out there that the data has been gathered on. So a 90,000 hr D11 sure would have had more than a few drivelines replaced in it, pumps, cylinders and many other items to can have a LCC thrown at them for budget purposes but they seldom get run till they leak or give up the ghost. High hour machines don,t say a lot about the components but when you get mainframes living to high hours that says a lot, especially about operational practices at the site. I just had a customer purchase a complete D11 U/C from me and he also just bought one for his 475, Komatsu was a lot more expensive as was the midlife overhaul kit too. Here is a story on a 100,000hr D11N that Cat honoured http://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/RFI-Energy-Cat-Celebrate-Rare-100000-Hour-Milestone/14906/
Seeing machines on the auction block can tell many, many stories, least of all there junk or worn out, boy tipping out new machines at 5-7000hrs, thats when the bugs have been ironed out, i would hazard a guess it has nothing at all to do with that and has a lot more to do with the leasing/financials/tax breaks than issues with the machine.
Scrub, I never said component replacement at high hours, I said component replacement. Whether that is due to failure, or due to benchmark hours being reached, components get replaced. However, the frame does not. Going by what you said, it seems you feel a machine would be brand new if the engine, tranny, torque and finals were changed out. That couldn't be further from the truth. Steve, I would be curious to know which Fording mine you were at, because contacts I have at several of their mines (now Teck) have stories that contradict yours very much.
Ahhh 14000 hrs 14000 hrs on components that sounds more like it. I currently have a Fiat allis Fd255 wit approx 11,500 on complete machine and has not been touched. I thought we were doing quite well! The other 255 developed a coolant leak into the oil pan leaky liner seal. Your hrs are more in touch with what I have seen.
Alco you post where you work and I'll post the mine where i was. It was as you guessed from my login in alberta! Ahhhh you have been checking on me. If your contacts are any good they will know which Fording mine in alberta I was at!and most fording operations die hard cat .
Yair . . . Hello alco . I think we are a bit at cross purposes. I realise the frame and some components don't get changed. I take issue with the comments that machines have twenty five, or ninety, or the nonsense hundred thousand hours. It seems they have the frames sussed to the point they don't need time in the welding bay which is good but the big numbers are meaningless . . . even fifteen thousand hours on components is pretty good, it would be interesting to know how those suckers would have stood up to a life-time of pulling scrub. It's an interesting discussion. Cheers.
You got it right Scrub Puller Is a machine really anything at all without its driveline? Your right Scrub it's meaningless!
For my purposes any, machine dozer or otherwise, IS the frame/chassis , however you want to call it, because everything else is bolt-on. Having said that even chassis can be "overhauled" to a certain extent to prolong their effective service life. You can replace all the bolt-on components you like at whatever time in its life you fancy. However when total frame hours get over say 50,000 hours the answer to the key question "Is it worth the effort overhauling/rebuilding this machine..?" is always "Is the frame good for another round of Component Life..?". If the answer is no then you work on the justification for a new replacement machine because the money you'd spend overhauling the old one is simply throwing good money after bad. I have experience of trucks where the frame has gone well over 100,000 hours and still been good to go for more.
It is interesting! It is interesting to point out the bare bones of this conversation. When we talk about overall longevity we really are talking about components. The frame houses these components and in all reality we can replace parts nearly for ever. I have a 1978 td25c with 35000 hrs on the drives but the rest of machine has been rebuilt numerous times. The frame is in excellent shape and we still use the machine occasionally. But at what point is it feasible to keep rebuilding a 20000 dollar machine? So I guess what you guys are saying that if the components fail prematurely but the frame holds out till 90000 hrs its a quality machine? I don't get it? But if that's the game I will say this! I do not see the d11 components out lasting anyone else's.100000 hrs on trucks is more probably as that's a whole different deal!then again components would be change numerous times!
Sorry I must have missed that ........... In a mining application with machines working 6-7000 hours/year I would describe longevity as reaching an "acceptable total machine life" at which point the purchase price has long been depreciated to zero, accompanied by an acceptable PCR life for all the major components. The acceptable total machine life will of course vary with machine types (truck, grader, TTT, etc) and most likely also model to model and from mine site to mine site. You may have missed my posts on another thread of a D10T overhaul just completed where the OEM components went 17,000 hours to first life replacement and none of them had failed. I'm pretty happy with that.
Nige that is very respectable hrs and I personally have never seen them that high! That does not mean it is not possible. Total machine hrs I guess would be a grey area as different operations have different philosophies. Like I said earlier the mine I was at replaced the unit at 20,000 hrs. In my small company we run the machines till we think we need major component exchanges and replace. This typically is no more than 15000 hrs. However we typically do not buy brand new machines other than excavators and crawlers under 200 hp. The bigger equipment is bought as low houred machines if possible no more than 3000hrs. It is more cost effective to replace them after these hrs than do a component rebuild. I do know at the time the mine had both dozers the komatsu's costs of operation were lower however I beleive Cat had offerd better service and did have better incentives in terms of trade in when the machine was houred out. I did not understand why komatsu could've not offerd the same but it may have been a dealership issue at the time.
As a mid-range sized open pit mining operation we buy all our kit new. Currently standing at somewhere around $150m for the whole fleet. To expand a little bit on the D10T rebuild, our (Maintenance) target PCR for Power Train components was 14k hours. However Logistics Dept screwed up and didn't order the components in time, so the machine had to run more hours while we were getting the necessary components to site. We are not in the Continental US, just in case you're asking. The complete rebuild came in at 42% of the price of a new machine and for that we get 6 months warranty on the rebuild and 1 year on Power train components (around 2500-3000 & 5-6000 hours) respectively. If this had been a CCR with a new Serial Number and full new machine warranty I would have been expecting 55-60% of new for the rebuild. Looking at the frame after it was sandblasted, it was perfect - not a crack to be seen. There's a reason for that - we don't rip a lot, 3rd gear is blanked off, and our policy is that tractors are moved by lowboy if they have to walk more than about 1000m. So based on that I'd expect that particular tractor to go at least 2 more rebuild lives and approach the 50k hour mark on the frame before I'd even consider making the justification to replace it with a new one.
We're not talking about throw-away equipment. It seems clear to me that these machines, given proper care and handling, can be cost-effectively rebuilt.... and ought to be, under most circumstances.
That makes perfect sense ! Nige that does make sense to me 100%! Have you ever ran other brands to compare the costs?it would be interesting to see in a situation like yours. I beleive when the company I was with the machine price at that time was 3 million or close to it. So when your talking the amount of investment it needs to last. I do know that the operator mentality in that mine was Cat or nothing so bringing another brand in meant it usually seen more abuse so I think rather than fight the system management went back to cat. The dozers I purchased were bought merely because they were good buys. As it turned out in the end they were some of the best cost effective machines I have purchased. Which is something to say as at one time I was a cat only guy also. The Fiat Allis tractors basically came with no dealer support and with a mining corp. this is not feasible. However that does not mean that the cost per hr to operate these machines is less or that they are inferior. In fact after trying nearly all brands of tractors even the operators like the way these machines work and their operator friendlyness. The hrs you talk about Nige are in line with the hrs any manufacture would or could see. I simply do not settle for this machine is better because of the hood emblem.
Our problem here is that we are in a market where The Dark Side has no effective dealer support, and despite making contact with them directly when we were up for buying all this kit they seemed to have little or no intention of changing that. The country has no prior history of large scale mining thus there are major problems recruiting trained maintenance personnel so that makes Fiat-Allis a non-starter straightaway. Unfortunately that leaves us with a choice of 1.........
Fiat allis Yes I understand that and Fiat allis as far as anything over 200 hp has pretty much gone the way of the dodo bird. I was thinking more along the lines of Komatsu or Dressta. Dresstas Td40e is a hearty dozer but they still trying to get their dealer network up and runnin again after finally breaking away from Komatsu.fiat only has dozers from 200 hp smaller under the Case and New holland line.
Our problem is that the smallest dozer we need is a minimum 650HP, i.e. D10 or 375. We already have 854K Wheel Dozers and are currently also looking at the possibility of D11s. Once you get into that size class the purchasing options get whittled down to two, one of who's not interested, or gives every impression of being so despite the fact we offered them the opportunity to bid on an 80-machine mining fleet. That being the case we went for the other one for obvious reasons.
Yair . . . Fascinating stuff. I had to grin at Niges comment about loading tractors to go a thousand meters. "Back in the day" it was not uncommon for us to walk D9's twenty or thirty miles between jobs and when they got there the "job" was WOT and second gear with a little bit of third gear and decel in the lighter patches. Cheers.
Ummmm, I have no idea who you are, or what mine you worked at. As you no doubt know, Fording is no longer, so it's pretty doubtful that anyone in the Teck family would have even the slightest clue who Steve from Alberta is. I certainly haven't been checking up on you, and I think you need to spend a little less time reading things into peoples comments, that simply aren't there. That being said, I work for Syncrude. I also don't think that total machine hours are meaningless as has been suggested. In fact, I think Nige has covered the reasons very well, so I won't bother going there. But the fact remains, we had D11Rs running with upwards of 90,000 hours on them as total machine hours, and they were still worth rebuilding. In fact, they have all been cycled through Red Deer and rebuilt by Finning. The 475 I mentioned, had 25,000 total hours, and SMS couldn't guarantee they could get it to run right, even if they performed a full rebuild on it. That has to say something.
Ahh syncrude!? I guess maybe I get a little worked up over these topics Alco. I can't see any reason why the 475 wouldn't be in as good as shape as the 11's at the same hrs but I've never been to syncrude. I worked at the fording Genesse operations and alot of our guys were from your mine. And your right teck has since bought the operations and moved back to cat. I really feel komatsu gets a bad shake at these mines as Cat has got ahold on these guys like no other. I liken it to the following Harley has, there are lots of good bikes but they still not a Harley !The 475's that left Genesse had over 20,000 hrs as would the 11's and they still wouldve had lots of hrs left in the scenario you mention. My nephew works at Finning red deer I'll have to get him to give me a tour of this overhaul facility. He has offerd a few times but only my son has been able to make it.
You definitely want to go on a tour, it's quite the complex they have there. I dropped by once, and was amazed at the depth they were going to with the rebuilds. They have now done a couple of our older 988Fs, D11Rs, 589s and 793Bs. They certainly had teething problems when they came back, but were quickly sorted out. The trucks were reframed, as were, I believe, two of the D11s. There are plans to do a few more trucks and other machines this year too. The place looks big from the road, but once you get inside, it looks even bigger. Check it out if you get the chance.
It goes back to the saying of an old boss (Maint Super) of mine from years ago - "When they're walking they're not working, but they're still wearing out just the same". We have a 100-ton lowboy with hydraulic tail ramps and just load the whole dozer, operator and all, and shift it as a "one-er" as we call it. A 3km move might take 20 minutes tops, trying walking the tractor that far when you only have 2 gears...!!
Yair . . . Gotcha Nige . In no way was I being critical, I was just pointing out the different applications and situations under which equipment works . . . and how people work them. For instance on large scale raking jobs I still see four or five hundred HP tractors building windrows which means either backing up or a locked track screw-round to work them back and forth. This is nonsense when I proved over forty years ago it is much more effective to work around and around the paddock and push the crap up into heaps . . . a long way from mining I know but same equipment and "manner of operation" can reduce costs/increase production by a huge margin. Cheers.
So true mate, so true. Some of the young guns brought up in the computer generation tend to look at us as though we don't know what we're doing - until of course we prove to them that we know far more than they do.
How the heck do you prove it to them, Nige? Most of the young'uns around here wouldn't believe it if you hit them in the head w/ a 12 lb sledge.
I'm on the "old guy" side of this, but I have learned that sometimes young guys see things clearly that us old guys miss due to a particular mindset. Maybe it has more to due with attitude than age. Bright young fellows with a great attitude and healthy respect for what the older hands have learned are a pleasure to work with.
I run a D11R daily and no GPS is necessary. I will say that you better know how to use the blade assist or your fighting a monster all day.