Met with someone on a minor pond job to repair a blown out dam. In the middle of no where, no big risk here, but the roads in are tiny, not improved, and 1/4mi in! The owner would like the good clay soil he identified used for the repair, which is about 500-1000ft away. I will have to run the excavator there to loosen or even load off the clay pile, and do repairs on the dam. However, I am really trying to figure out the best way to move clay between pile and dam. I don't think any dump truck has business in there. A tandem will certainly get buried. I was leaning towards a loader, backhoe, or maybe only a large skidsteer like a 289D, but I really need to move some volume to get this done! I started thinking about a backhoe as a "do all" machine, but I think if I show up without steel tracks on something, I will regret that. It's hard to get a backhoe stuck, but if it can't be productive, I will be pissed and this is 40mi into the wilderness to the job. Really not much difference with the loader other than volume should be much higher. I would say 5-7yd cap might be max for this area. There is a road going around the pond and it is close so too much weight and things could get interesting. I was going to level the area with the hoe so we are operating level.
Why not a 4-5 yard wheel loader?
Second the wheel loader even a 3yrd would do ok at that distance just depends on conditions
Split your tracks and where you have to go repeatedly throw a little fabric down. We have gotten away with some ridiculous accesses with fabric. Bring a small loader with huge rubber.
Rent a marooka
Or see if your Cat Rental store has one of these - This dumper had the rotating/side dumping bed. IIRC it was $1800 a week to rent.
WE just finished a project similar to that. Although we had to fill in an old stock tank/pond. We used a 30,000# size excavator and a large tracked skid steer loader. We dug the dirt and placed the pile toward the pond. Then carried dirt to pond with loader. Meanwhile, the excavator rehandled the pile and again moved it closer to the pond, while the loader moved what it could out to the far reaches of the pond. We rehandled the dirt piles sometimes up to 4 times, but the loader kept whittling down each pile as we moved it closer to pond. It took a lot of dirt moving, but in 6 days we filled in a fairly large pond. There is no way the ground would have supported anything with rubber tires. Jeff
This sounds like a track loader job little bit of load and carry action
I second the Marooka rental. It takes all the drama out of it.
A wheel loader on any sort of dodgy underfoot conditions is a recipe for disaster in my experience.
If you don't want to take a wheel loader in there, how about a tractor and small pull pan/scraper? only you have seen the layout obviously.
Can the pond be de-watered and expose enough decent clay to repair the dam ? Maybe you could get some bonus work cleaning the pond to.
I think I'd be looking an excavator and track loader combo. Track loader works well in soft ground. If it's soft, I wouldn't be bringing anything on tires in.
The trouble with a wheel loader is once the bucket is full almost all the weight is on the front axle. And unless its something like a Fiat the bucket won't curl far enough to walk yourself out. Are you a one man band? If so you can't afford to get stuck, so you have to play it safe.
If a back hoe would work , a wheel loader should work too and be more productive ,especially if you can get one on big ag tyres. Sometimes dodgy ground work is not all about weight or ground pressure but the amount of passes also if you are confined and tare weight .
Tracked dumpers are the way to go. I was running 5-6 ton loads almost 3 miles in to the furthest water crossing on this job and the Feds would not allow the prime contractor to drain the beaver dams. Even though the dams could have been drained into the de-watering creek within 200-300 feet of some of the dams, everything was done with existing conditions. I had a few sections of long puddles to cross like this area. Worst parts of the job were where the side by sides caused a lot of rutting through the deep mud. You can't see it in the pic below but the machine derailed a track on the other side because of the deep rutting. I was waiting for the contractor's mini ex to help me get the track back on without losing the load. I was already over 1.25 miles in at this point. We got the track back on without losing a rock and continued on. Many places on this job became over 2' deep with mud/water mix. Pretty easy job for the C60R. I've dumped 1/2 loads on 30 degree side slopes with this machine - pucker factor jobs - but it feels as solid as it does on flat ground when working those conditions.
I really wish I would have grabbed a couple pics for you guys. No standing water (right now) and the little haul road would be about 100ft from the edge of the pond. We drove on it with a small pickup, but I can see that unless a dedicated road is done, my gut tells me only tracks should be on that. To make it worse, I will be many miles from help so getting it right is important. I honestly think a large track skidsteer like the 289 would run this perfectly but the job would drag on forever! Like a tracked wheel loader is what I am dreaming for but I have to think logically in what is around that I could even rent! A 289 can only move like .5yd/bucket. I need to run something small enough that my excavator can get it out if things go bad. How much weight the ground will take is anyone's guess but we all know tracks will always do it better!
Treemuncher, that buggy would probably work but moving dirt, it looks like the hopper capacity would be light? I am sure I can't even rent one around here though.
Morooka 1500 or the same size in a competing brand. They'll handle about 7 ton and they're lighter on the ground and obviously more nimble than anything larger. If 5 ton per round sounds adequate the 800 is smaller and cheaper, a little bit faster, or should be. 1100 is an 800 on steroids, also a good choice. Challenger Services in Tulsa 918-447-0055 may have machines available, if not Bottomline in Texas are good people.
These machines are designed for 30 degrees in any direction, and they'll hang on past that if you're brave enough, to the point the engine stops picking up oil. I watched a guy back a brand new machine up a set of steep ramps onto a flatbed truck, I'm pretty sure it saw 40 degrees before it eased on over, neither the machine nor the driver seemed the least perturbed, but I was! By the way, they don't break over like a dozer or excavator, those rubber tracks and swinging bogies make it act more like all those legs on a caterpillar, they kind of slowly bend over the break point and ease down.
Komatsu has the tracked dumpers as well if there's a dealer nearby to rent one.
They still do that? They quit building them when Tier 4 became a requirement.
That C60R2 is rated for about 5-6 tons. When hauling dense grade limestone, I would wipe out a KY Triaxle load (maybe 26+ ton?) in 4 passes. I know I often overloaded it with my tall sideboards to the point that I would have to bump the tracks to start lifting the bed. Once the bed is up 5"-6" it will toss the rest with ease. I would usually load 7 full buckets with my 4810 Posi Track and it was loaded to the gills with dense grade, 9-10 buckets with rip rap. Saves a lot of tracking compared to a skid steer and puts out 4 psi or less loaded. Hauling dirt or materials less dense than limestone - fill it full over the sides and it will throw it just fine. 40 degrees straight on a hillside never a problem. Run lighter loads if it won't pull fast enough through the steep. I put in uncounted numbers of dock landings on the lake and over 12 miles of foot trails on one long term job. That dumper is too handy to get rid of these days.
They sound incredibly handy, but we don't have anyone around here that even know what they are, let alone rent one! Best I can do is the biggest track steer Bobcat has, which is the 870. It's frustrating. That thing will be doing good to get 1yd in the bucket, but I guess it should be a safe play.
@lantraxco I knew you'd show up sooner or later he's the expert but I've got some experience with those and they are indeed the bomb when it comes to soft conditions.
That was my thought, if a BH was an option a wheel loader would work as well. A large CTL is still less then 1 cy in the bucket. A wheel loader would give a 4 time advantage. Even if you needed to throw some pit run down on the road to firm it up would still be days faster than a CTL. The tracked IHI type trucks are an idea but they cant carry much and the travel speeds are slower. A wheel loader can obviously load itself so you don't need an excavator to load yourself (I think, depends on the load out geography of course).
Wasn't aware they quit making them but see several places that rent them online.
Tyler I'm a track loader guy - both large 953 size and smaller CTL's but 500-1000' of tracking one way is too far to be productive IMO for any real amount of material.
I would think a lot of wear on steel tracks if you wanted any kind of production. 500-1000' is a pretty big range.
What do you consider a "real amount of material"? You can really get wound messing with the time vs wear vs cost thing.
I would bet the biggest CTL would be quicker then a track loader with even a 3-4 yard bucket. You could haul 1.25 yards with a ctl easy, and probably be 3x as fast as track loader per trip. CTL also much better on soft ground, easier to haul, and cheaper and easier to find for rent. But if it's a large amount of material, like say 1000 yards it's not going to be cost effective to move it that way. The only way it will be is some kind of dump vehicle hauling at least 5-6 yards.
Any chance you could wait, to do the job, for a drought, or for hell to freeze over ? A helicopter is not an economical option, for hauling dirt. I worked as a pilot, tasked to fly the corp of engineers around to inspect private dams in OK. I landed on top of a number of earthen dams in NE OK to inspect damage. As a side, the Army engineer taught me about slope and erosion. The Corp of engineers told me which dams he wanted to see, and I flew to them. One of the dams, the downstream neighbor had reported (complained) to the government because the neighbor was concerned about the dam giving way after a flood. Once we walked along the top of the dam and saw the damage, we were concerned also. I smell a big government contract for this job ?
LMAO, though I should get in the loop on Army repairs. This is certainly a dam repair, but nothing that could affect anyone else. I don't do the shoddy, "where's my money" work. What is really funny is I recently learned my previous boss when I was in big municipal construction was in the Army Corps. No wonder we operated with safety and accuracy in mind!
In my mind the big problem with a CTL in mud is the relatively low belly clearance. In soft mud the machine will bottom out. A tracked dumper, with it's bogey wheel design, is much better for traction & floatation in mud & has way more clearance.
Thanks but Nope, I'm no expert on anything to be honest, and certainly not on using track dumps, though I can spin the sales pitch a bit. If anything I have a limited ability to diagnose and help with repairing obsolete models of these beasts. Very rarely I get to build one, lol. They're fun, along with being extremely useful in special situations.... they're about the only thing in between artics and that helichopter (sic) cw4Bray mentioned!
Are you that far from Tulsa? I mentioned Challenger in an earlier post, they usually have something available.
Well as I mentioned, the tracked buggy is out. We just don't have them around here. I honestly don't think a CTL will have much issue on this job. It is relatively flat and I could patch up the small haul road with the CTL as I go. It seems like a painful way to move dirt, but...... I have also put out a PM to Suladas on the opinion of the CTL. I am figuring on top of first gear which is 5.5mph. If I can go faster, great, but not sure how it will go. I mean, worst case, it takes longer! But I probably won't get stuck or have issues in that regard. It also can double as a finishing machine. I won't be working in mud! Nothing like pictures in this post. Just soft ground because it is somewhat close to the edge of a creek and pond.
Here is where we were using the excavator and CTL to fill and old pond. As you mentioned, it will work well, but is kind of slow. Only buried the CTL one time in the mud, and the mud was bad in the bottom when we started the fill. Jeff
These thing great the main problem we ran into was not being able. To clean the mud completely out of the double bottom rollers and having the track freeze up
You might search for Terex and Hydrema rentals, they make small artic dumpers, 4wd.
yeah, sometimes if you can find a decent run of dry ground and make a few full speed passes it will fling enough out so they don't freeze up. They're not easy to clean except maybe the Prinoth/Powertraxx style undercarriage.
You have to sit back and be patient, but I have thawed frozen down equipment with a weedburner. You can play ~80F air off the end of the flame with no chance of burning anything.
Weed burners took most of the day . We ended up packing straw around the track to help keep from freezing.
A bit of elbow grease and one these at the end of the day beats weed burner and broken things the next morning.
Not enough room even had little garden shovel and sticks and couldn’t clean it out
If you end up with a CTL, just of course watch your bucket. My Cat dealer sold me a 78" with my 289D that holds about half. My 299D3 came with a 83", but it is much taller back and sides and runs a touch over 3/4 yard as I recall. Huge difference.
Fire hose really the only way to get most of it out of the crooks and nannys... (sic)
Didn’t want to do that 5-10 degrees F out
So....here is where I am guys, and it comes with a question. I can either bring in a guy with a track loader, or I can rent a CTL. Obviously there are plenty of pros/cons here. The loader will come with an operator but higher cost, and I don't have to buy fuel. CTL probably won't drink that much fuel as most of it is just carting material. It will be slower but I can use it to smooth and finish as well. Only concern I really have is the rental insurance? I cannot say I have ever given too much thought because I usually have a place to put a rental. I can lock it up tight into my excavator and I can disable a machine to the point no one could ever start or move it, but....I still worry. How much is rental insurance? I assume renters have this? I certainly don't have that in my umbrella. As far as my "security" thread, all I can say is I have a plan and no one will get to the equipment without letting everyone within a 3mi radius know something is up.
I'll second this. Having only spent 2 days operating one of these I was totally impressed with the way they performed. There cycle times are so much faster than a road trnck working on site even if they carry less. IMHO they would be the next best thing to a tracked truck in soft going, don't pump the ground like a loader of any kind.
Your insurance company will write a short term policy to yours and the rental companys satisfaction
In regards to insurance i wouldnt take a rental like that out without insurance.At one time i carried a rental policy that covered me on rentals up to 250,000 for compressors ,pile hammers ect. Now my broker will put coverage together on fairly short notice for rentals if needed,justs costs a bit more. All part of your overhead as a contractor.
Most rental companies have lose and damage insurance that you add to the rental when you rent the machine. It usually is much cheaper than getting insurance on your own. Jeff
I just got a quote for a rental boom truck to take down a 100' antenna tower at work. It included a sample certificate of insurance, we would have to duplicate it in wording and coverage. I think the insurance requirements will make it prohibitive for me to do, and I'll call for a crane service. It's a bummer because they would rent me the same model I ran in Seattle for a couple of years. I'd have to swing the jib to get it done.
Renting a crane is a world of difference from an excavator or dumper. I would be surprised if there was a rental co. anywhere that would put one out. Even being in the crane business ill buy one if the need warrants it,but i dont think id bare rent a picker id rather have the owners operator.
Maxim Crane in Seattle. I got a dispatch from the union to operate one right after I got released to work after shoulder surgery this summer. The operator at the grain loading terminal pranged the platform and chute system that delivers the grain into the ship's hold. I had to set up basically wall-to-wall on the dock underneath it. Everybody had numbers for all that junk, but it added up to much more. The only option I had was to deck land it, back up 30 feet, and offload it onto a hapless 1 ton flatbed that I backed in next the outrigger. It started out with a telescoping chute that I had to take down and trip. It was like tripping a trombone. They quoted me a day rate of $865, weekly $2600, monthly $7800. The typical 3 and 3 math
If you go the CTL route make sure you get one with ride control on the arms. For hauling there are oversize buckets such as snow buckets.
500-1000' is a long distance to carry material. How many CY's have you estimated that you need to repair the dam? Toting bedding material for pipe laying 500' is one thing but moving 500 CY's 500 FT with a trackloader or CTL is whole nuther story. I'll put my 953C against the largest CTL currently on the market on dig and toting material - regardless of the distance and beat it every time.
I thought I mentioned but the total filled area which I estimated to be a 30ft long plug would be about 250yds. However, I have explained to the customer that it is not needed to make the entire repair from clay, just the good bit where water must be sealed up. However, I have mentioned the importance of doing the repair in lifts with compaction. If it leaks and does not seal up good quickly, it could leak. The travel distance is about 800ft and I think I have decided to either rent or hire a large CTL, though I have not figured out how the heck you "find" the magic person that has what you need. I have quoted up another guy with a track loader and I think there are too many variables on this one that could make this expensive only for me. I know the CTL will have no issues with the terrain, and if they do, I can save them with the hoe. If the hoe has issues, we should not be there, so getting the right weather is just important.
You don't mention if the 250 cy is after factoring in a compaction rate, but if it is 250 cy with compaction, that would be about 450 trips in a big CTL at about .70 cy per trip. I don't know how fast you can travel that 800 lf, (would want to make sure that CTL has ride control for sure.) Say it takes 10 min. per trip that would take just about 75 hours to move that material. You might be able to move it faster than 10 min (the math was easy at 10) but it probably is fairly close. Around here, a CTL hired out is $100 an hour. Are you sure a CTL is the only way to move that material? A 3 cy loader with the same cycle time would be 14 hours.
I think the concern I have is that track loader being able to make time. I don't have a travel speed for it. The CTL I am estimating flat out in low range which is 5.5mph. That works out to 3.3min trip time (obviously not realistic), so I was figuring a worst case of 7min cycles. I am also trying to gather specs on the CTL, but would be a T870 with 88 or 92 in bucket which I think specs about 1.2yd.
Virnig makes a 96" real dirt bucket and it is still under 1 CY. But if you could get a full yard that would help.
Thanks! I have had a hard time just trying to get specs for a CTL bucket! All day long for an excavator though! I am not sure where the 1.2yd is coming from. No indication of heaped, method, etc. I think unless you are truly moving bulked loose material, it is difficult to get true capacity. Trying not too end up a dream land, but I only see a few options in my area regardless available or rentable equipment.
I think if you're renting a machine you have to choose from the buckets the rental has available. I don't know how much it costs to rent rig mats or get some gravel to make a road but moving hundreds of yards less than 1 yard at a time 800ft. would be very inefficient. If you have to dig even from a stock pile you don't want to use a larger light material bucket like is used for snow or wood chips. Especially with wet/damp material you'll either destroy the bucket or be teetering the whole time if it's filled full. If the haul road isn't perfectly smooth you'll get bounced to death trying to go as fast as possible. I've seen feed lot loaders with extra wide tires that I think would work if you compacted a haul road.
Also you stated this would be clay. Clay, as everyone knows builds up in the bucket. The bucket is going to have to be kept clean to max payload (wasted time). It is nearly impossible to rent a dirt bucket bigger than 84" . Virnig makes a 90" (which I have one on order) and a 96", but you wont likely find one for rent. If my numbers are right or close to it, the CTL is going to slow down the entire operation drastically. You cant place and compact until you have material and coming in at sub 1 Cy is a slow process, perhaps the CTL starts a week earlier and stages the clay. Guys are going to be staring at each other waiting for material regardless. Like Welder Dave said, this is a very inefficient way to this. If you owned the CTL that would be one thing (still inefficient) but renting or hiring out one, is going to suck a lot of money and time out of the project. Building a haul road as mentioned before would be worth the time and then use a 3 plus yard loader and pocket more money.
Other option is a hired tracker loader with '2.5yd' bucket. I quote that because I have no clue if that is heaped, etc. I have no clue on travel speed, or if we will fight any conditions. I do know from experience that larger tracks like that tend to blast over things that smaller machines have issue with. We are talking a mid 90s track loader. My D7 runs a 3sp trans so it can dance in high speed but that is still slow and I doubt I would run that speed with a load. Just trying to get numbers for a track loader. Hard to determine times without some values.
A hydrostatic loader is 2-1/2 to 3 times more productive than a torque converter loader. Almost as quick at maneuvering as a CTL. Just ask CM. I think the biggest concern, especially if you owned it, would be the increased undercarriage wear from multiple long haul cycles at higher speed.