I purchased a 2009 hitachi zaxis 200lc 3 excavator fairly recently to build some trails on my property. I was crawling around under the machine yesterday and noticed a small leak in behind the sprocket and on the chain. Decided I better check the oil level in the drives and found out there was ZERO oil in the drive (took drain plug out after I couldn't find the level). At this point there is no noise coming from it and I'm lucky I haven't done much traveling but I have no idea how long it's been empty and how long previous owner used it like that. Question is, how difficult is it to change the floating face seal and can it be done without pulling the drive? I keep reading that you shouldn't just keep topping it off as dirt will get in and wreck the drive which makes sense. I don't plan on owning this machine for long but this can't be ignored.
Not a bad job. Requires a crane and a very thorough cleaning. Also will need a special tool to remove the nut.
ahhh, i was worried i would need special tools. the nut is probably torqued to some unimaginable spec i assume as well. So even if i can get the drive off and opened up, I wont be able to remove the nut and definitely wont be able to torque it to the required torque afterwards. i was really hoping it wouldn't require a trip to the shop.
You're assuming that the leak is a result of the face seal being worn. Prepare yourself for the other possibility that it could be worn bearings causing the face seal to lose compression and leak.
How many hours are on the machine?
yes I was making that assumption . I was not familiar with the relationship between the bearings and the seal.... would there be noise if the bearings were bad? there's roughly 11,000 hours on the machine.
Not necessarily. Do the plugs on the final drives have magnets embedded in them.? If so, are they showing a lot of "fur".? Post photos........
no they don't have magnets which i thought was strange. the other final drive is at the proper level but the oil is gray. not milky, but grey...i havent drained it yet but i will on my day off.
Those hours indicate a total teardown, inspection of components and rebuild. You are going to need thrust washers, bearings and the seals. The gray oil indicates wear in the other final and it will need the same thing done.
I concur with John. The final with no oil in it needs to be removed, disassembled, and evaluated. You can't do this installed on the machine. The other one with the grey oil could be made to go a bit longer with a flush and an oil change. What you learn on the side that is leaking while repairing it will prepare you for the other side.
You should be able to get that final pretty close to 100% apart on the machine, only the spindle would remain attached to the track frame. In all honesty, with the amount of work involved and the huge possibility of contamination doing it in the field it wouldn't take much more effort to just pull the drive motor and unbolt the final drive as a unit.
Well this is bad news... what is a new or reman drive worth? i'm guessing my local shop will want nothing shy of 5k to rebuild it. Is there any benefit to topping it up and running until it completely fails? I have the mechanical ability to tear it down and rebuild myself but i wouldn't know what to look for and i have no way of removing the special nut or torquing it. Don't know what you don't know. would a service manual have the level of detail or info required to do this?
Start making phone calls and asking questions of the dealer or shops of your choice. Just keep in mind that most will tell you one thing on the phone and another whole line once the component is torn down. Best way to get and idea is to get a quote for exchange and a new one if available. I had a client ask me about doing finals on that size of iron. Dealer quoted $6,000 in labor to do both finals. Turned around when the finals were apart and quoted $33,000 to put them back together. Made me angry enough to pull all the parts out of their shop and bring them to mine. Got them back together with seals, bearings and thrust washers for less that $7,000.
The socket for the nut I believe is a "dealer fabricated tool." They may be able to provide you with the specs or drawings for it as well as a torque spec on the nut. I doubt it gets much more than a couple hundred ft-lbs. If I'm remembering it right, I would use a 3/4 drive torque wrench on the 450 finals. Disassembly is pretty easy, all the planetary pinion shafts should be retained with split pins. The biggest pain would be replacing the tapered main bearing outer races and even then if you can freeze them they should drop right in.
These planetaries aren't exclusive to Hitachi, other Japanese machines use them. Also there are businesses who specialise in the repair and or parts supply. I suggest you start searching for them as they usually offer a better service and lower costs the OEM dealers plus they may also share the info you require should you do the job yourself.
A half-way decent one ought to. For a Cat machine of similar size it would be guaranteed to, I can't comment on how extensive Hitachi manuals are for a machine that size. For the larger machines they are pretty good.
Is there any benefit to topping it up and running until it completely fails? No, not if you want to rebuild original using most of it's goodies. If problem caught early, limited tooth damage and wear from contaminated oil to components. If left past that point, it starts to grind itself into grey paste. Final drives I've seen like this are impressively mashed to bits inside, new would be the only replacement. The special tool for the bearing nut is made of a section of tube, with "teeth" welded around one end to fit whatever slots are in the nut, the other end has a plate welded across with a spare socket welded on. I'll see if I can find one and take picture. Obsolete gas cylinders get kept in the junk pile for making these specials Holding the final drive from turning is the only other thing to consider.
You could just fill it with oil and run it over the auction block. This forum is full of that equipment.
Would the same vintage and size Deere use the same drives? I was under the impression they were the same machine with a different power plant. Those manuals would probably be decent too? I've been searching for specialized companies but I'm not coming up with much, I don't know if we have the same availability to parts and services here in Canada. Most things I find are all through 3rd parties. I guess the other question is, if i don't rebuild it myself, would it be cheaper to buy a rebuilt one as opposed to having mine rebuilt. A picture would be great I wonder if the grey paste you speak of is the grey crap in the "good" drive.
The gray stuff is the grindings from all the moving parts inside the unit. There is a member on this board that does handle final drives. I've also made contact with Tones in Australia who clued me to a source there with contacts to companies in Asia. I'll try to find our thread.
Here’s a pic below from the Deere online parts look up. A Deere 200DLC is equivalent to your Hitachi Zaxis 200LC-3 . Link to the parts page https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/83647/referrer/navigation/pgId/374915
I bought Bobcat 331E year 2000 with broken final drive (I didn't know about it at the time) and there was many other problems to solve around the machine so I was driving it for 2,5 years and didn't notice a thing. In May 2022 one of the two bigger bearings finally gave up Obviously there wasn't oil for years (pervious owner had to give up oil refill too, didn't told me about that). New drive (in Europe) was approx. 5000USD, alternative was about 3000USD so I tried to rebuild that thing, total costs 916 USD + my time (I have minimum tools and no garage/workshop) The rebuild went very well (if you ignore sweat, blood, multiple small injuries and a lot of tears), the drive is holding all the new oil in it no problem for next 4 months and counting. At first I thought that problem is in hydraulic part of the final drive so I openned that first... it's a bit hard to put everything back together and keep it clean... My profession is an accountant by the way, I never visited any "machinery" school or had relatives as mechanics, I just love to dismantle broken things and put them back together fixed (sometimes). I want to say, that rebuild is possible, depends if it's worth it.
Could the nut be loosened before the track is split and/or the travel motor removed.?
That would be my way of thinking.
Here’s a link to the parts page for the Zaxis 200LC-3 from the Deere site also. https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/65247/referrer/navigation/pgId/18375 . Brandt the deere dealer has really good used parts dept that can find damn near anything , tho not necessarily the cheapest. They generally offer components as new, in-house rebuilds and good used takeoffs.
Thanks for the link to the parts diagram. That definitely helps me wrap my head around it. The thrust washers that have been mentioned here, are those the spacers (#24 in diagram)? If I pull this apart, there shouldn't be any need for me to open up the hydraulic side with the swash plate and pistons correct? I could leave that can of worms unopened. I can't believe that drive worked for over two years dry like that! I also have a love of tearing things down and rebuilding and consider myself to be pretty competent mechanically, that part doesn't concern me. What concerns me is not knowing what to look for in terms of parts being worn or out of spec. There's the obvious stuff but there has to be a lot of things that could be bad but could go unnoticed by someone that has never had one of these gremlins apart. I'm going to start tomorrow by removing the covers on both drives and having a look to see what kind of crap is sitting inside there, I'll post pictures of my findings. I appreciate all the feedback so far
The problem as I see it is that you only have a "leaker" on one side. I would suggest to only go into that one right now. The other one I'd drain the oil, throw a couple of gallons of diesel in it, raise the track off the ground and run it in both directions for maybe 10 minutes or so total, drain, and if necessary repeat if what comes out the first time is still badly contaminated. Put the drained diesel in a bucket and swirl a magnet around in it and see what it collects. Refill with oil to the correct level for now, you can go back to it later.
I’d say to do your home work before doing anything else. Find your parts sources and possible pricing. Make your decisions based on what is affordable and possible.
The completely 'wrong' but cheapest bandaid way is to flush it out as said above, and pump half a dozen tubes of grease back in. I've done it and it lasted the rest of my ownership of a machine once. Did the same with a swing transmission as well that was leaking out all around the swing bearing,no leak for next year or so till it got sold.( I also mixed that grease in a bucket first with half gear oil and warmed it enough to pour it in-slow process. Like tar, but doesnt weep past the seal.)
Problem with filling with grease, from my personal experience, is that it doesn't make its way into the bearings. Any one that I've pulled apart that had grease put into it burnt all the bearings and shafts.
Witnessed underground coal guys use a similar method when the seals were leaking on a continuous miner cutting drum. I had not seen this before so I gave it a small chance of success, the gents putting the grease in said they had a "special" cocktail of grease and oil. To my surprise the cutting drum made it to the next rebuild. Sometimes temporary fixes work, sometimes they do not and price to repair goes up.
well I talked to Brandt, all parts are available (thrust plates, needle bearings, main bearings and seals) and looks like it would cost about 1500 in parts. If i do the work, that's doable but buying a remanufactured drive for 12k (CAN) isn't an option at this point so im going to start by doing what Nige suggested. I talked to the local heavy equipment service place as well and they said about 2k to tear down and replace seal, if needle bearings were also bad then they suggest a new drive which i dont understand because they are cheap. the needles bearings also have to come out to get to the seal anyway so im not sure why they scrap it at that point. I'll post findings tomorrow.
Technically the planetaries (where the needle bearings are) don't even need to be disassembled to replace the seal. Just remove each carrier assembly and set aside. The fact your final drive may have been run low on oil I'd just order all the pins, bearings, thrust washers and split pins. I don't see the logic in junking the final drive if its only bearings. Hopefully the shop is experienced with these final drives. If the nut starts to gall up when being threaded off they will destroy the spindle if they start heaving on it. In that case its best to split the nut off and touch up the threads on the spindle so a new nut threads on easy.
Yes sorry, i just meant the assemblies that the needle bearings are part of have to come out. I'm feeling more and more like ill tackle this on my own and the actual track splitting will be harder work than the rebuild. how does one remove the nut without damaging the spindle? i know they have a lot more experience than i do! by pins, are you referring to the part that the needle bearings rides on and the split pins go through? the piece at the centre of the planetary gear. essentially the shaft right?
You can drill a close line of small holes, say 1/8" or 3/16", through the nut from the spindle outwards to the edge. Repeat 180 degrees across on the other side of the nut, then smack the areas you drilled with a sharp chisel and it should crack it in half. Just take care not to drill into the material under the nut. You'll also fill the main bearings with metal so replacement is advised. Yes, pins/shafts. I guess shaft would be a more appropriate term.
Is that necessary? Is that something you do if you don’t have the special tool or people do this just to avoid causing damage to the spindle? every video I watch completely skips over this step
Yes if you have the slightest suspicion that the nut could potentially wreck a very expensive shaft if it seized while it was being removed.
You'll still need some kind of tool to torque it up afterwards. Have you got the torque spec for your final drive?
How does one know if it’s going to seize? Seems like something you wouldn’t know until it’s too late. unless it’s breaks free and then binds as it’s coming out. I Haven’t found any torque specs yet and the shop wasn’t much help in that regard. heading out shortly to open up the cover on the dry drive and flush the other.
The behaviour maybe.? Once it has been "cracked loose" for the first time it should simply screw off the spindle using a relatively low amount of force. If at any moment after the point where it breaks loose the force required to turn it starts to increase that would indicate something is causing it to hang up on the threads. Stopping at that point and splitting the nut off would most likely not result in significant thread damage to the spindle, it's carrying on trying to turn it that would do the damage.
Good day Brace yourself those transmissions come in pairs, have you checked the other side?. You may change your mind about rebuild see attached. Kind regards Uffex
Mind upload few photos of the final drive?
I’m just draining the one right now and then I’ll flush it with diesel and see what goodies are in the diesel. After that I have my work cut out for me getting the cap off the side that had no oil. The bolt heads are damaged and parts of the cap are mashed over so close to the bolt, you can’t get a socket on it. I imagine that’s fairly common though
Well the drive that had oil in it is good. I drained it with a magnet in the drain oil being drained then filled it with diesel. There was nothing in the oil coming out that stuck to the manget. I ran it for three minutes in each direction with the diesel in it and drained that. Tipped the bucket on edge and swished the magnet around for a bit. Absolutely nothing on the magnet. I just finished filling it back up with clean oil. Going to get started on the bad side now
Good day That is good news, thanks for keeping us in the frame. Kind regards Uffex
That just means that the metal has been ground into fines. You have some time to run, just don't count on much.
I wonder if what was discolouring the oil was possibly dirt getting in through the face seals.? We used to get water/dirt ingress a lot in our excavators if they were used in sloppy underfoot conditions and travelled a lot.
Getting the cap off wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be. Prior to getting the cap off, I dug all dirt and crap out from behind the sprocket. It was packed full of junk. Pieces of roofing shingles and plastic. The inside of the drive was all still wet, wasn’t dry dry. I don’t see any damage either, at least on the parts you can see. They all look good. The bolts weren’t very tight either
You might just be one lucky fella and just maybe the seal is all that needs replacing. Remove the guts of the hub then check for bearing sloop on the outer part of the hub.
You're on the money with that assessment. Once broken loose it should spin off pretty easy. If you need to haul on a ratchet or breaker bar, the threads are galling up. A lot of times if the main bearings are worn the nut will start to move a little as the lock plate has a little bit of tolerance in it from what I can remember. I suspect that's what gets the threads buggered up - the repeated movement of the nut along with end play on the bearings beating on the nut. If the nut has to be split, a little time with a thread file and a new nut will usually go right back on with no issues.
The creamy colour of the remnants of the oil sticking to the planetary gears, ring gear, & carrier gives the impression that it's been contaminated with water. In the case of a leaking face seal it's always possible to have 2-way traffic. If oil can get out water can get in.
Put the cover back on fill it with oil and run it a while, sometimes something will get in the seal and allow it to leak and the oil leaking out will clean it out. Bad Bob
Yes I guess I could fill it up and keep a close eye on it. See how badly it’s leaking anyway. how is the cap supposed to be sealed? There’s no o ring listed in the parts diagram. There was definitely a ring of adhesive of some kind. It wasn’t an o ring but the bead was too perfect to have been put there by someone. It was orange coloured, you can see it in the pictures.
If I remember right, we normally just used a thin bead of Permatex ultra gray sealant on the covers.
We used to use a Loctite sealant called “Flexes with Flanges”. Was the best in sealing covers on final drives and such ! I’m sure there Loctite part # 38628 now is very similar.
Thanks for all the help, I’ll pick up some gasket maker in the coming days and get it back together and filled up. I’ll report back with any leak updates. Likely won’t have time to put her to work until sometime next week.
Most all the Japanese gear works I've put hands on used a silicone type sealant. It really doesn't matter much I think.
https://www.woodlandfp.com/ I used these guys when I replaced the final drives on my Cat 307. At that time Cat quoted me $5000.00 to replace the seal in mine, if that was all it needed, if I removed it an took it to them. I bought New complete with drive motor from Woodland for $3000.00 delivered to my door. Several years ago now. about a year later the other side started leaking and I bought the second one then for the same money. They were aftermarket but worked fine and are still working fine now . The only issue I had was the fittings in the drive motor for the Hydraulic lines were British and I had to buy adapters but that was the only other expense involved. I'd have to dig back to get a time frame but its at least4 or 5 years ago now.
Many of the guys in my area that have fellerbunchers in the woods have a lot of seal problems in their finals, most will pump the finals full of synthetic grease (EP Grease) and run them until they break...sometimes years, the grease stays in good and as long as they're full of grease it keeps the water out, If seals are your only problem that might work for you.
service place quoted me 2,000 (can) to replace the seal and 12,000 for a reman. I'm hoping to not have to do either. got the cap on today, ill fill it with fresh oil monday and see how bad the leak is or if its present now that all the junk has been dug out from behind the sprocket. I have no doubt the grease method has some merit, but i have to sell this thing when im finished with it and i cant imagine it will go over well if a prospective buyer does an inspection and finds that drive full of grease.
Nor was I insinuating that you should, I was just passing on what I've found to be a way that some people get around spending the money for a time and get some extra life out of the part they eventually know they'll need to replace anyway. I missed the part where you where selling the machine.
Mcrafty, I wasn’t saying it was a bad idea, I genuinely appreciate the advice. Someone else suggested it too.
Well, it didn’t take long to leak after I filled it up, guess I’m going to learn how to tear down a drive. At the rate it was leaking, it wouldn’t take long to be empty. I’m digging a pond so I can’t be loosing 7 pints of oil every couple days all over the place.
Mark the final drive with a paint marker or something and turn the final drive a half turn, see if the leak stops. Sometimes if there's damage on the part of the seal that rotates you can just park it in a position where the damaged area is above the oil level.
I parked it next to the house and drained it. I’ll spend the day tomorrow clearing out the garage and setting up some heavy welding benches I just bought at auction to build a brush rake for the dozer. Good thing I bought those, they’ll be perfect for tearing this down. If I have time, I’ll get started at splitting the track. It looks like my master pin is secured in place with a circlip. Any advice for those? I’ve dealt with circlips lots but is there anything special or helpful I should know about this master link setup? I’ll take and post pictures of my progress over the course of the job.
You will only have the whole world looking over your shoulder as you work, what could possibly go wrong That master pin / master link arrangement was a tap fit when new. Should drive out relatively easy, may take just a bit of heat to get it moving.
run the pin up on the sprocket, putting the pin about 45% from the top . Make a punch with a handle so you can drive it with a big hammer. the pin drives toward the clip side. Bad Bob
Anyone have a guess as to what size plugs/caps I’ll need for the hoses and travel motor? 200 hitachi.
The 2 large high pressure hoses fittings are -12 flat face. The case drain and motor angle shift are JIC for sure , likely -6 and or -8. Have you decided to remove the complete motor and final drive assembly ? You have the option to replace the duo cone seal leaving the motor and hub on the machine. You don’t need to remove any motor hydraulic hoses.
That’s what I had intended to do. Are you suggesting leaving the whole unit on the machine and taking the cover off and pulling the guts out of it? I don’t know how else to do it without pulling the whole thing off.
Makes it easier to torque the nut.
What does? Leaving it on or taking it off? Now I’m confused. I imagine you’re saying leaving it on makes it easier to torque the nut.
The weather here is going to be well below zero (32 deg)the next couple weeks with snow, does that make more sense to remove it completely and do all the work in a garage or is it not that bad to get at the seal if left on machine
Yes leaving it on makes it easier to torque the nut. The major downfall of doing it in place on the machine is contamination control. If you're doing the work outside there's a huge potential for dust, debris and water to get into the final drive. Inside a shop is not a big deal if you have that luxury.
Aright, I’m just going to take the whole thing off. Having trouble getting the master pin out right now though. Got the damaged circlip out But the pin won’t move. Think I need to find a bigger hammer. My sledge is only 8lbs. I do have a a gas torch as well. Maybe I’ll try heating the link
Diesel Dave, What’s flat face? Here’s a picture of the drive. the two big ones take a 36mm wrench and the other two take 27mm and 17mm I don’t know what type though or thread type
A good hydraulic shop will know exactly what -12 flat face caps and plugs are. Sorry, I guess the proper term is ORFS (o-ring face seal). You will need 2 sets to plug the 2 large hoses and cap the 2 large motor fittings. The JIC caps and plugs are relatively inexpensive so maybe get 2 sets of -4, -6 and -8 JIC caps and plugs to plug the 2 smaller hoses and cap the 2 motor fittings. I’m unsure of the exact JIC fitting sizes on the machine but will be one / two of those for sure.
It would be easier to flop the track off without removing the master pin. You don't need another machine to help, just a good chain
Most times when splitting a track I'd remove the 2 pads over the master link and then bash on it with a 20 lb sledge. A 2nd set of hands and a big drift with a handle for the 2nd person to hold makes it easier.
With a stubborn pin I've found it easier for myself to put the master link down on the ground between two bottom rollers, make a drift that is long enough to come out about a foot past the track pads. Weld a handle about 6-8" back from the end you'll hit with the hammer, so it's like a crucifix type of cross and about 2 foot long so you can stand on it with your feet apart a little way. Weld a centre blob on the other end, if the master pin has a centre hole or divot, this helps keep it on the end of the pin at the start. Set it up on wooden blocks, stand on the cross tube with your back to the tracks, with a bit of practice and a 14lb hammer you can get a full on swing beating the drift backwards between your feet. I always have a practice on some heap of crushed stone first, to get my swing into shape. It helps that I used to mess around as a kid playing croquet You can knock a plain drift back through after so you can track it a few feet to split the track in a good position. Don't forget to pull the tensioner all the way back before starting. If removing the final, maybe loosen the nut in there first.
Thanks, Diesel Dave. I got the right fittings and they are all capped and plugged now. I welded up a “drift” earlier today, if that doesn’t work, I may build a crucifix and do as you do, John. It’s an old curling weight bar so some hardness to it I believe. I was using a big car jack and a block of wood to rest it on with my wife holding it steady earlier when I wasn’t having any luck. 8lbs just ain’t enough. i already had the circlip out and there’s some damage so I doubt I’d get a new clip back in without cleaning the seating area up once the pin is out so I’m committed to splitting the track as opposed to flipping it off. I used the torch to punch a hole in the centre of the pin on both sides because I read that helps. I was only able to get it about 3/8” deep though, I couldn’t make the torch cut/reach further than that so I’m doubtful it had any impact. I may try to make them deeper with a long reach carbide burr. It was dark by the time I finished that so didn’t get a chance to lay into it. I’m going to buy a bigger sledge and get back at it on the weekend. Will update then. oh and I’ll weld a little nobby on the drift too now that the pin has a hole in it, good idea.
I've never used less than a 16 pound hammer for any of them unless I burned a round slot in the pin with a torch.
I'm surprised someone hasn't mentioned borrowing or renting a pin press, every other method known to man has popped up here. They've been known to work well for pressing out hard to remove track pins.
not really an option. I certainly don't know anyone with one and the service places here won't lend out their tools
Understood, I know buying one wouldn't be too desirable but I thought maybe a equipment rental/ tool rental place might be. If there are none in your area then maybe not...it was just a thought.
looking at the parts diagram, is there any reason the sprocket needs to be unbolted from the hub? i was reading something regarding final drive removal and a step they have listed is loosening the sprocket bolts before removing the drive which makes sense if you're removing the sprocket but to me it doesn't look like it needs to be removed. Am i wrong or is this a step commonly done?
You don’t need to unbolt the sprocket from the hub when removing the drive.
Maybe put parts diagram and a picture up, if you want to confirm for sure.
This wasn't for a final drive (can't remember what this was made for) but something like this made up to loosen bearing nut.
Thanks for posting the picture John. the computer I'm on won't allow me to post a picture but the picture of a parts diagram was posted on the top of the second page of this thread. I agree with Diesel Dave, it certainly doesnt look like it needs to come off. is it beneficial to take it off? if it makes little difference i think ill just leave it on. I think my style of bearing nut will require a tool slightly different, there's holes in the nut as opposed to notches by the looks of the diagram. likely just a piece of plate with some dowels welded in it and a socket in the centre.
Depending on the torque required to undo/torque back up, you may need to use every hole in the nut - weld correct diameter pieces of rod to a section of tube, similar to the picture. The tube or cylinder section gives it strength.
About leaving on or taking off sprocket, biggest difference is that it makes it lighter and easier to man-handle about for cleaning or reassemble. Otherwise leave it on
Never wasted my time pulling the sprocket unless the customer requested a new sprocket or the machine was in the shop for undercarriage as well.
Thanks, that settles it then. The sprocket will stay on.
Well, the 16lb sledge made all the difference. It still took some work but didn’t take too long. Drive is off and in the garage. I’m going to clean it up good before lifting it onto the workbench and disassembling it.
If you haven't done it yet I would chain or secure the loose end of the track to the carrier roller pedestal or somewhere else sturdy on the undercarriage. Loose tracks have been known to flop off the top and I'd hate to see someone get flattened by it if they happen to be in the way.
Thanks for pointing that out, 92u. I’ll get that secured.
Alright, making headway. My 1/2” impact wouldn’t budge the ring gear bolts so I welded some scrap pins to the table inside the sprocket teeth. 3/4” breaker bar and a cheater did the trick after it was secured. That should help me remove the spindle nut too although I may have to lag the table legs to the concrete! I’ve got all the guts pulled out but one thing stands between me and the big but. How do you remove the dowel pin in the nut? I ordered another with the rest of the parts so I can damage it without worry but there has to be an intelligent way of doing it...
Does the pin stay in the nut? Realizing the pin is to locate and retain the big carrier assembly. Does the pin actually prevent the nut from turning? Also, before I build a tool and go reef on that nut, is typical lefty loosy or backwards thread? Thanks.
Yes the pin prevents the nut from turning. With the splined carrier removed the nut is allowed to turn. Lefty loosy it is. I have found that if you give that nut a couple of good raps with a punch and a small sledge the nut should spin right off allowing the pin to be driven out from the backside . I forget how tight the pin is in the nut but a vice grip with good sharp teeth may be all it takes to pull it. If all else fails ,weld a nut to the top of the pin and pull it with a slide hammer.
If the pin doesn’t have to come out before taking the nut off, should I just leave it in there? Should be no reason to remove it from the nut then. Just reinstall the nut with the pin in it when I’m putting things back together?
Yes you can leave the pin in, you will just have to allow for the pin when fabricating the tool / socket when going back together.
Where are you hitting that nut with a punch? Inside one of the holes?
Yes ,use the edge of a hole. Don’t get carried away, with 2 good slaps it should be evident if the nut is going to spin off freely or not. The only reason this generally works is some bearing preload has been lost due to normal bearing wear and takes some load off of the nut. If it doesn’t move at all then at this point you will have to build the socket. As has been said before by other contributors , if the nut starts to bind or lock up STOP ! I believe it was 92U 3406 who previously posted an effective way to cut the nut.
Well the nut came pretty easily With the punch.although it never came to a point where it just spun off. As soon as it came off, the spindle and motor dropped 2” and hit the bench with a thud. Scared the poop outta me. If anyone decides to do this like me, don’t make this mistake. Make sure you block it up before removing the nut! I was so preoccupied with the nut, I totally forgot to support the underside. She would have spun off easily had this been done. Can someone explain to me the function and purpose of each seal type? You have the big o rings as well as the metal to metal surfaces. How do I remove the seal that’s around the spindle without getting dirt and crap down in there?am I exposing the hydraulic side once that comes out?? There was also a “paste” I’m picking at in one of the pictures, not sure what that is.
More pictures. The last one shows the seal I’m not sure how to get out without dirt getting down in there. Also started making up the tool to reinstall nut. Just bolts with the threaded section cut off One of the o rings was split as well. If anyone wants pictures of anything else, let me know
Have you made a decision to replace the (2) bearing sets or no ? Take pics of both bearing races in the sprocket hub.
The root cause of your leak is right there. That isn't an O-Ring, it's what is known as a Toric Ring and it provides the "spring force" to keep the two metal face seal rings in contact with one another. Lose the spring force, no contact, seal leaks.......... The faces of the metal rings are worn out as well BTW.
Here's a link to a very good tutorial by @willie59 of how to install floating/Duo Cone seals and the pitfalls, etc. HeavyEquipmentForums The Youtube video gets into the technical side but is good because it stresses the need to have everything absolutely clean when assembling these seals and not to use any form of lubricant.
Website is being glitchy ** right now so I can't zoom in on any pics. That metal paste is just accumulated wear particles. If the gears and other hard parts are still in reusable condition then just clean it up and don't worry about it. No need to worry about dirt getting into the hydraulics, the motor is a sealed unit. Just pop the duo cone assemblies out and clean up all the crud. May need to get into the groove the toric sits in with a wire brush on a die grinder to get any rust and debris off the surfaces.
If the proper install tool for the duo cone seal is not available to you, a length of synflex air line between the toric ring and the flange of the metal face seal will help keep the toric ring from rolling up on you. It can be a bit of a chore to get them installed without the proper tool but it is doable. Just take your time.
Also looks like there's a crack in the one metal ring in the first batch of photos.
Good eye. I also think that’s a crack.
I hadn’t made a decision on the main bearings themselves yet, but they don’t seem bad? Pictures of the races attached. Great eye! I hadn’t noticed that crack yet. There’s actually two cracks in that ring. No crack in the sprocket side which had the bad toric ring. Nige, thanks for the explanation.that makes perfect sense, such a simple but clever design. Thanks for posting the link to willies instructional too, that’s an amazing resource to someone that’s never done it before. That video helps a lot too.
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Bearing races look questionable to me based on the pictures. Being this far into it I'd replace them.
Sometimes it's hard for people without experience to get their heads around the fact that the Toric Rings are fixed in position on the ramps and actually grip the ramps and "roll" to a certain extent as they are being installed. See this thread, in particular Post #8, for more info on how those seals work and why: - 1. Everything has to be cleaned with alcohol before installation and the same alcohol is the only permitted "lubricant" to use during installation. 2. The surfaces of the ramps on both the metal ring and on the housing MUST be rough otherwise the Toric Ring will not grip on them as designed when the seal is being installed. HeavyEquipmentForums
I'd say they are more than questionable. Check out the marks of the rollers on the bearing cups. Those surfaces should be bright like a mirror, not dull. If you had a new bearing in your hand at this moment you'd see the difference straight away. New bearings (cups & cones) needed.
That paste is like lapping compound. You should dismantle the planetaries and check the thrust washers and bearings while you are in there.
It’s a good thing his thread exists, I would have definitely taken sand paper to that surface the toric ring sits in. should the ring sort of twist as it goes in? As in like load up? What I’m reading is you don’t want it to move as it’s installed but if it goes in without a bit of twist or pre load, where does the spring come from? definitely need new main bearings and races eh. What’s involved installing those? No special tools or heat/cooling required? i ordered all new needle bearings, thrust plates and pins for the high speed planetary set closest to front cover. Think I should be rebuilding the other two bigger sets?
What you want during installation of each "half" of the seal is for the Toric Ring to "grab" on both ramps and rotate somewhat as the metal ring part of the seal is pressed downwards. The force created by that rotation as the ring is pushed into position is effectively the "spring". Does this make it any clearer.? In the diagram below the Toric ring #2 is jammed between the ramp #7 and the corresponding ramp in the housing (not shown). When the ring #1 is pressed down the Toric Ring rotates in an anti-clockwise direction and and at the same time compresses slightly, thus becoming "the spring". If the Toric Ring is allowed to slide on one or both of the ramps it will not function as a spring and the seal will most probably leak. The #1 mistake that is made installing Duo-Cone seals is that it's a pretty tight fit to force the Toric Ring past the Lip #8 on both sides. The first thing that folks do is to grab some lubricant to help the process, but if you want the seal to work right after installation that's the last thing anyone should be doing.
Yes, that’s makes it pretty clear, really good information there. Are there some seal groups better than others or are they all pretty much the same quality? I’m told if the box says China, it won’t last and you want seals from India? My box didn’t say anything but a part number and ex200. This set was half the price of others, 300 vs 600
Some light force popping that cracked ring out and...
Prepped seal area. It feels so strange leaving that “rough”. Normally rebuilding something, I’d never leave it like that. Is this good? I basically knocked off rust and crap with 2” wheel brush in the dremel. I also knocked out the old bearing races, new bearings on order. Do I have to install the new races before I can install the new seal?
Spindle side seal surface does anyone have a good way of removing lint stuck to cast surfaces? Considering taking a small propane torch to the fuzzies
Pulled apart the high speed planetary set. There’s some grooving in the pins from the thrust plates but the bearings look okay, no blueing.
Most important, did it have the gauge that is used to set the height of each half of the seal when it is installed.? If not hopefully someone with Hitachi experience will be able to tell you what the measurement is. It's important to maintain the specified height measurement +/- not much all the way round the circumference of the ring.
Rebuilt planetary set... anyone see a problem? I love doing things twice Nige, there was nothing in the box What height are you referring to? I took a measurement of one height when disassembling...
Back in the day every new seal group had a small plastic height gauge in the box to assist the installer in ensuring that the seal was not installed "cocked" after it was in position. The Rollos Royce solution is to use a dial indicator. All these instructions refer to Cat seals. While to a great extent Duo Cone seals are similar I would not simply assume that the height measurement quoted in the attachment is correct for your particular seal group.
I haven't seen that for years now. Don't think I ever saw that on the Japanese machines.
8T0537 was the Part Number for the plastic height gauge. I see that Cat have discontinued it but it's still available aftermarket apparently.
Is it best to install the bearing races into the sprocket side prior to installing the one half of the duo cone seal in its housing? I’m worried that if I successfully get the seal installed, I’ll damage it or it will get mispositioned somehow when I’m flipping the sprocket around and pounding the races home on each side. The spindle side should be okay to install the seal on first.
I usually install the seals after everything is in place inside and the I put the seals in and mate the elements together.
I always do seals last.
Okay, bearings should be here next week, project on hold until then.
This project took a back seat for a while, I apologize for anyone that was following along. I got back at it today, installing the new races and Bearing on the spindle. I then moved on to the cone seal using instructions from Willy posted earlier in this thread. I found some wire that fit the gap nicely and had everything clean. Without using any lubricant or alcohol, the seals went in fine using just my thumbs to gently push the toric past the lip. This worries me since I was expecting this to give me a hard time. I imagine the further you push the toric/seal down into the housing, the harder it would be. I don’t know how far I’m supposed to push it down into the housing. The further you press it, the bigger the gap it creates between the toric and the housing lip which I thought was preferred to be zero. Currently, the top of the toric sits proud of the housing which I’m not sure is correct. On the sprocket side, the actual seal is sitting much higher than the old one. I took a picture of the old one before I took it out with a flat edge and a ruler to see height. I don’t want to put these two halves back together before I know this is right. The seal has good “spring” to it right now when pushed down
Old seal
New seal sitting much higher
I was going to upload video of the “spring” but not sure how to.
The old seals will typically sit much lower than new ones. The new ones might be able to go down a smidge more but they don't look too bad in the pictures. Its more critcal that the toric is seated evenly and isn't rolled/twisted.
In my experience there is a cavity that the rubber sits down into. You can feel it relieve into that cavity as you install it. In my experience the rubber ring will be just above the metal while the metal seal will be a bit higher. I can't tell for sure from your photos but it doesn't look like the rubber is all the way into the cavity on the highest sitting seal. Others who have done this recently should chime in pretty soon.
They are in straight without any twists. I’m just worried because I expected them to fight me. Are some final drive seals just easier than others? They seem to be sitting where they fit best, in order to go lower, I have to force the toric down in there with a blunt screw driver and then it fights me but where they are now they just seem to fit.
With the right tool/technique they generally pop right in.
Haha that’s what worries me, no tools and no technique! They aren’t loose, they wouldn’t fall out if turned them upside down but you can pop them out without much difficulty.
Putting those things together without the installation tool is more a matter of touch than anything. Take a measurement of the seal above the case that it is sitting in and if the same all the way around, you should be good.
Just lowering the sprocket side down into position on the spindle. Everything is centered and looks good. With a millimeter or two gap between the sealing faces, when that closes there will still be an inch gap between the two pieces (sprocket and spindle housings). Should I just continue lowering the sprocket down and allow the weight to compress the seals or is this an indication that I didn’t have them installed far enough down into their respective housings?
Do you have any idea how much further the sprocket needs to move downwards before it is "fully home".? I assume that it fits hard up against a shoulder on the shaft or something like that.
The bottom seal is not right, put the oring on the seal before installing it in housing. Use some alcohol or my favorite brake cleaner and keep the ring wet while you push it in. The top one may not be all the way in either hard to tell from your picture. Bad Bob
That gap there closes to about 1/8” when bolted together I think it’s the bearing on the spindle that bottoms out in its race in sprocket which is still about an inch away which is represented by that measurement in yellow
Bluox, the o ring was on the seal when I installed with electrical wire between the o ring and bottom side of seal face filling the gap and not allowing the o ring to ride up while installing. It looked like this.. this is a screenshot of another post but mine was the same