We are in the process of looking for another wheel loader, we currently have a Komatsu WA200, that is not large enough for what we need it to do now. We have been "borrowing" a Cat IT28. This size loader seems to suit our needs. My job now is to search out and price different manufacturers. Before I get swamped with return phone calls from starving salesmen can anybody tell me what other machines would compare to a Cat IT28, we are using it to load stone, lift pipe, and the most important job now is to load and unload some machinery we are now using in our pipe bursting operations. We are looking for something that will be easy to switch from bucket to forks. Any and all suggestions are welcomed.
Anybody? Any opinions?
I can't offer any advice on which loader to choose. But from what you describe you want to find one with either a Cat IT or a JRB hitch for changing attachments. There are other hitch's, but that the two most common around here.
volvo, john deere, komatsu, cat, kawasaki,
Volvo L70 I'd say a Volvo L70F, L70,s are great machines and they have a great quick attach system!
redbank,it has been a number of years and i have not ran a Volvo L-70 but i have a but i have ran a L -90 AND L-190 I thought they were great loaders,very stable i have yet to run an IT-28 that i have liked,in my opinion not one of cats better ideas if you can try out a 930, a lot better machine in my opinion this is from operator point of view i don't buy them so i not sure of the price difference,this is just my opinion.not sure if they still do it but the company i used to work for would try out different brand of loaders before buying one in particular,i have ran 2 or 3 different brands in one week then report to the owner what i liked or didn't like, not sure if the dealers still let you try a machine out but it is a good way to go to help make the right choice for you.
Thanks guys, little correction-we have a WA100, called Komatsu dealer today to order some parts, got the salesman on the phone and he offered a WA200 to try out for a week and offered what I thought was a great deal on it, it is a demo with 156 hrs, and recommended either the WA200 or WA250. Told the Boss, who has been dealing with Cat,found out Cat was cheaper. I have thought about Volvo but I am not sure where my local dealer is, need to check their website. I will check with Deere and whoever my local H&E dealer is selling now.
What are you doing with the loader? Do you need a quick coupler or just a bucket? Starving sales guys would love to let you demo. Ever try a Deere or a Liebherr?
Red bank your dealer would most likely be ASC I don't know what location but I know that they are primarily the Carolina's
We will need a quick coupler, had lunch with local Komatsu salesman today, free meal and free offer to demo WA200 for a week! Going to check Deere tomorrow!
I'd say the deere TC-62 is around the IT-28 size. We have 2 at work, and they work out fine for us
Here's some good info on a nice Loader built in America Shouldn't ever be a problem finding parts and service either. The 544K or the older model 544J would be comparable with the IT-28 or the 928G Cat. These loaders are durable with lots of power. http://www.deere.com/en_US/cfd/construction/deere_const/media/pdf/wheelloader/DKAKULDR.pdf Here's another link. http://www.deere.com/en_US/cfd/construction/deere_const/wheelloaders/544k_loader_360.html
I am not pleased with John Deere dealer so far, I dropped by last Wednesday, I got there before the salesmen came in, left my card with a parts guy, told him what I was looking for. I have not received a phone call or email or anything. Called up Doosan dealer, asked the parts guy to forward my phone number to a salesman, he called later that morning, wants to come by Monday, looks like another free lunch I talked to the parts guys at both places because that is who I usually deal with and they know me. I will see what happens this week.
Unfortunately something like that happens all to often. Whether it is the salesman or the parts guy, he probably still has the card laying around and never turned it over. Happens to often. It's important for people to pass on messages, it could cost everyone involved a bunch of money, including you. What is the name of the dealer? I would be glad to help.
The dealer is James River, Greensboro, NC. I think I might know what the problem is, our home office address is in Lenoir, NC which puts us in different sales territories. The office is there, but we buy all of our equipment in and around Greensboro, because that is where we are based out of and where the majority of our work is. I spoke to the Boss today and he was not happy, one dealer requested that I email his territory manager and explain the situation before he could talk to me, I understand that completely because I know the other salesman would be upset if someone was stealing his customers, but, like the Boss put it, so what-nobody from there has called on us at the home office so who cares? I was not sure about this assignment because I thought with the economy like it is that these salesmen would be absolutely hounding me when I started inquiring about their products, but so far the only one who seems to care is Komatsu and I appreciate that he does not call me, but emails me and is offering a machine to demo. I still need to search out Volvo and see what they offer. And I am still waiting for Doosan, I guess the emails did not go through, but you think the guy could have called in a follow-up? I mean, we may be small fish to the dealers but who wants to beg to spend money?
Deere K Series Video interesting video's I found on you tube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69cxgRA3TT8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yb2mleGu8E
Here's another one. 966H vs 744K with lock up converter I'd guess. I for one am impressed with the lock up. Wonder why this older technology hasn't come in force to the loader machines until now? I know Komatsu has it in some models and the 988G/H's do, but it seems to make sense in other size machines. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJfWVvgqpmA
Just wanted to update, I have met with Komatsu, Doosan, John Deere, and Cat. I need to sit down and go through the price quotes, Komatsu and Deere offered demos, Doosan is trying to find one to show us in person and Cat has promised to beat any price and do whatever it takes to get us in a Cat. He has not bought me lunch yet:cool2. The Boss and I are going to meet this week and talk over which ones we want to demo.
Samsung SL150-2 Anyone have any input the Samsung SL150-2 loader? I looked at one today for a fellow that was interested in buying it to take up north.The machine was missing the left door and some side glass.How hard would parts finding be?The engine is a C model Cummins 8.3 with a ZF tranny.Machine had around 6300 hrs and seemed to run well,any input good or bad would be helpful,thanks.
alanstr, How far north are we talking? Alaska would not be good, Canada might be OK. Center joints need to be looked at very carefully. I've seen other Korean machines drop the bottom pins on the ground and the machine almost come apart. The Cummins shouldn't be a problem as long as the engine tags are in place with all the numbers visible. The ZF transmission is another story. Last I checked there was only one factory authorized ZF repair facility in the United States. That tranny dies and you have to look at an exchange from the factory facility or find a used one. You might find out if there is a machine dealer in the area you are taking this monster. Parts and service manuals are a must if this is going remote.
We've got a 05 Komatsu WA-250 w/ the JRB quick attach setup. We're very pleased with the machine all around. One thing about Cat has always been is that they have excellent resale value. I absolutley hate a Case loader.. feels top heavy and takes to long for the tranny to shift from F to R. My vote is for another Komatsu.
John C., The loader would be going to N J on a horse farm and used for manure & shavings.The pins seemed to be tight with no play.As for the tranny the operator said that in the 2 years they had the machine,when he would go forward in 1st gear it felt like it would start off in high gear and then go into low.I test drove it and to me it acted like it was low on tranny fluid and had a slight hesitation before taking off.I tried to check the fluid level but the dipstick was missing and they had a rubber cork in the top of the tube. I was concerned if the level was low all that time the clutch packs could get damaged.As far as a dealer in NJ who knows.if they do buy it I would go over her in Fl and they would ship it up.
Thanks, Komatsu is bringing out a WA200 next week to demo, and,yes, Cat has a better resale value, which the Boss always points out but after 20 years in the business we have only sold one pick up truck, one 575 New Holland backhoe, and one Freightliner van . I talked to Deere today and have scheduled their demo in two weeks, Cat is scrambling to come up with something. Doosan does not have one to demo. I settled on these four because of their individual dealerships in our area and the relationships we have with all of them.
Well, thought I might give an update. We demo'd the Komatsu WA200, very nice machine, my operators loved the hydrostatic drive. For the money and the difference in power we would probably order a WA250 if we go with Komatsu, the salesman told us that it is the same physical size of the WA200, just more power. John Deere brought out a 544J this past weekend. I told them to bring out the J, they are offering a sweet deal on it because it is used and to be honest if we went with Deere it would have to be used because of the higher prices on the new loaders. Cat is sweating bullets for the opportunity to bring us one out to demo, I have arranged that one for Thursday and the last week Liebherr stopped by out of the blue, and asked if they could bring one out, I said sure!. As I explained to the Komatsu salesman, we are not wheel loader people, if it was an excavator, or backhoe then we would know which one we wanted right from the beginning without having to demo, but since we have not used wheel loaders in the past, the exception being the WA100 we have, I want to check out all of the machines and decide which one works the best for what we are doing. Ok, my ramble is over.
I assume that the Deere blows everyone else away because of the LUC? Do Volvos also have LUCs, or why can Volvo keep up so well?
Pretty keen eye there!! The Volvo's typically have the tightest TC out of all the loaders in the market place. This is the reason they usually have good acceleration and a contributing factor to their relatively good fuel economy. Komatsu is the only other one out there offering a LUTC on their larger machines.
Actually, that last part was something I didn't want to say at the time... if *this* is how good Volvo's TC is, I'm not surprised how efficient they are. Which begs the question. How is Volvo's TC so good, and why can't Cat and Deere (and Komatsu and everyone else using a standard transmission) design something as good?
I ran a Volvo loader (nearyly new rental in Aug 2004) for a few weeks loading trucks. The model designation illudes me at this time but its GP bucket was slightly larger than a 980 Cat. I was very impressed with it. I have a lot of experience running 980F and 980G Cats as well as older 980s. That Volvo was all around alot better loader than any of the 980 Cats that I have ran. With the Cats you had to wait for the RPMs to build before you got a bunch of power whereas the Volvo started to deliver its power before it had to build its RPM up. The bucket raise and bucket curl delivered a lot more power than the Cats. When you went to push your bucket into the pile the tires would squat down slightly and it would deliver more pushing power relative to the Cat machines without be prone to tire slippage. I do not know what to attribute this to (tc?, more low rpm power?). I think that Caterpillar has went downhill with their loader designs in a number of ways. I think that the best performing loaders that Cat has made are the 970F, the 966F series II, and the 950F series II. The 960F probably falls into this catergory although I have never ran one. Ever go to hang a shovel on the outside of a G series loader? I miss the flat fenders on pre G series machines for helping out washing your windows. The ride control switch is not next to your bucket controls. If you need the speed for chasing material into the bucket then you want the ride control to be manually on until the point you arrive at the material you are chasing and make contact with the cutting edge, at which point you want it off. If I have a ride control close to my bucket levers I would never run with ride control on auto. For a loader operator who has a fine feel for finish work they do not get the feedback from the bucket levers when they are electro-hydraulic controls. I do like the low center of gravity on the 980G compared with the 980F. The first job I was on with a 980G I had to do some reclamation and I was able to do some side slope work that I definately would not have been able to do with a 980F.
Linkage Options Can anyone explain the pros and cons between Z-bar and parallel linkages on loaders? The Cat, Deere, Komatsu that we demo'd had a Z-bar arrangement, the Liebherr has parallel. I was wondering if the parallel would be stronger or would it matter. Thanks
The first thing to note is that parallelism is performance feature of several linkages… including the Versalink (monoboom) from Caterpillar, Integrated Tool Carrier from Case/Liebherr, Powerlell from Deere, or even the parallel z-bar from Komatsu. This has operation benefits for safety/efficiency/productivity for both experienced operators and novices to keep their loads level (again... safer). Machines with multiple operators or inexperienced operators benefit the most with parallel lift but some applications (lots of carriage work) it’s pretty much a must. When you start asking about linkage strength that can be defined different ways. One way is to test a linkages torsional rigidity by lowering the linkage on a stationary object and measuring the bucket deflection due to linkage torsion. To do this power down on an object with a bucket corner until a tires starts to leave the ground then measure the height of each side of the bucket from the ground. The difference is your measure of linkage twist. You’ll find that a Versalink will twist 2-3 inches less than a z-bar (IT should be even more) thus showing it’s torsional rigidity and thus a measure of the linkage “strength”. If you ask your salesman for examples of manufacturers stress tests they can likely provide you with the differences in hot spots generated in heavy load cases… and again the Versalink monoboom will outperform z-bar and IT linkage solutions. Give it a try and see for yourself! So in short you can get parallelism through a few linkage options but strength that you can demo can most easily be shown in a torsion test as explained above. Enjoy the upcoming long weekend!
Thanks Q-Ball that is exactly the same explanation I got from Caterpillar today and after watching a neat little video they had I got a better understanding of how it works and the strength of the Versalink.
Q-ball, That was a really nice sales pitch for the Versalink. I am assuming that this should be at no surprise given your location:cool2. Red Bank, I will try to answer your question in more general terms without a Cat, Komatsu, Deere, Case, Volvo etc spin. Your original question was the pros and cons of z-bar versus a parallel lift arrangement. Although I agree somewhat with Q-ball's statement that the parallel lift path is important for an operator not dumping a load off of a set of forks, in my travels I have found that for the most part the biggest reason folks opt for this linkage on the front of a loader is improved visibility. A z-bar machine can perform the same tasks as a parallel lift machine given the operator manually adjusts the fork angle as the boom is raised, but the z-bar machine never have the visibility of a parallel lift loader(or at least the typical TC, IT, TP or PL linkages). The reason that operators need better visibility with a parallel lift machine is because they are typically using a quick coupler and handling forks. Not only can the operator see the coupler easier, which makes switching attachments faster/easier, but they can also see right down the middle of the front linkage to see the fork tips and the load they are carrying. Even among the different parallel lift linkages that are on the market, some are better at this than others. The pros and cons: z-bar linkage pros - usually less initial investment, lower operating costs over the long haul due to fewer greased joints and pins, generally better digging performance. z-bar linkage cons - reduced visibility to a coupler, forks and working load, no parallel lift requiring an operator to manually adjust tilt to keep a level load, significantly reduced roll back torque at full height. This last point is apparent in lumber mill yard applications when trying to roll a full load of logs back off a truck when the boom is at full height. Parallel linkage pros - parallel lift (duh), must better visibility, depending on the manufacture - much better roll back performance at full height. Parallel linkage cons - possibly higher initial investment, higher operating costs because of the use of more pins and greased joints, typically worse digging performance than a z-bar (there are some caveats here), worse metering performance while dumping a full bucket of material (caveats here as well). As anything there isn't a cut and dried pro/con for each manufacture, but generally speaking these are it. Some designs that are out there try to compromise some of these pro/cons for better attributes here and there. I'll try to address them without being too bias towards one or the other. Cat: Cat uses two different systems depending on the size of machine. The versalink on some, the IT on others. The IT is similar other manufactures in the market place that have what I would call a "traditional" parallel lift linkage. It uses two cylinders mounted on top of the plate lift arms and has mechanical linkage attached to the cylinders for the parallel lifting action. The IT has great roll back angles for holding material and great visibility down the middle of the boom. It lacks in digging performance and roll out controllability when compared to the z-bar. The versalink (AKA monoboom) uses a fabricated boxed boom with a single cylinder on top of the boom. The bucket cylinder has linkage that goes through the boom that attaches to the main front frame of the loader which mechanically gives the same parallel lifting action as the IT. The versalink is a VERY powerful digging loader. In fact I don't know if it gives anything up to a z-bar in digging. The downside to the versalink is the visibility down the center to the forks. Visibility to the coupler isn't too bad, but unless the forks are spread all the way out, its impossible to see both forks. Volvo: The lion’s share of all Volvo loaders has what Volvo calls the Torque Parallel (TP) linkage. Volvo claims that this linkage gives the best of both worlds in that it has the parallel lift, visibility and digging performance all in one linkage. I would agree that the TP linkage has awesome visibility, parallel lift, great roll back angle for retaining material and great roll back torque at full height. The trade off is that it really isn't that great of digging machine. Typically when you put a Volvo loader into a pile and try to curl the bucket and raise the boom, all that the loader will do is curl the bucket. The boom power to come up through a pile is typically much lower on a Volvo than any other loader out there. Case: Case offers their XT front linkage, which is similar to the Cat IT. It falls into the same pros/cons as the Cat IT. Deere: Deere used to offer the TC linkage. Much like the Case XT and Cat IT, it too suffered many of the same pit falls. Good roll back angles, good parallel lift and good visibility down the middle to the forks. The down side was that they didn't dig all that well and were hard to meter the bucket as it was dumped. Deere decided to change direction and came out with the Powerllel linkage which attempted to solve the last two issues mentioned above while maintaining parallel lift and visibility. As with anything in life there are trade off's. The Powerllel is a great digging linkage (almost as good as a z-bar), has great roll back torque at full lift and can be metered when dumped better than the TC. The trade off is reduced visibility down the center, although still much better than the z-bar. Earlier this year, Deere announced it has brought back the 624TC with the K-series. It appears they will offer both a TC and Powerllel with the 624 model. Komatsu - Komatsu typically offered a traditional style parallel linkage called the PL. It appears they are changing course as well and going to a z-bar arrangement with parallel lifting capability. This arrangement would seem to be the best of both worlds if one only cared about parallel lift and digging performance, but since visibility play a key role in these machines, I can only speculate how well this system will go over in the market place. I have little experience with this new system to comment any further. Kawasaki - Kawasaki offers one model of parallel lift call the 65ZV with the Task Master (TM) linkage. This is the same as the Case XT, Cat IT, Deere TC linkage with the same pros/cons. New Holland - Same as Case JCB - Same as Case, Kawasaki, Cat IT etc.
Thank you Farm Boy that was a good, simple explanation. As it seems with equipment the parallel set ups in Komatsu and Cat add around $5-6000 to the price. Leibherr only offers the parallel linkage, their selling point being that they give that to you- a free option. We were told by an independent dealer that the Komatsu with parallel linkage was the way to go because of strength of the linkage. However after seeing the Cat video I believe that the strength issue is a moot point. I think it goes back to visibilty and bucket function, which would also factor in price. Thank you for your reply.
We've had real good luck with our Komatsu loaders. I would not hesitate to get one.
Flashpuppy, what size and how many hours do you have on your Komatsu's? The reason I ask is we keep finding used Komatsus at great prices and that seems to be what we are leaning to.