We purchased 4.3 acres (300 x 633) of land last October and walked all over the property over the weekend. Since all the brush and vegetation is dead we were able to get a really good look at what we are dealing with. I have to make a road (on the 633’ portion) off of the main road to get to the where the driveway will be placed. The property has dips and holes and will need to be leveled out and the area where the house will sit will need to be built up a couple of feet. Originally, I thought a skid steer or loader would do it but, after walking the property, I’m thinking it’s just too big of a job. The dirt is pretty rocky. It’s more rock than dirt and mostly covered with overgrown scrub brush and a couple of smaller evergreen trees. The financial adviser has given me permission to buy a bulldozer, (10k is the budget) and we will probably resell it after all the dirt work is done. It will probably be 2 years or so before we break ground and I have a mechanical background so projects are not necessarily out of the running, but parts availability or dealer support would be a factor. There is a plethora of bulldozers in my area ranging from $1500 projects to $10k drivers but I don’t know anything about them or what makes one model better than the other or what size is too big or too small for what I am trying accomplish. Also, could somebody post pictures of good sprockets versus bad sprockets or a good way to measure them or what to look for? I read ads that claim undercarriages are at 80% etc, but curious how they come up with that number. Any thoughts or recommendations?
Nice looking place. Probably need to raise your budget to 20k and maybe find a pretty good cat D3B. If using the dozer for a short time then reselling it I would get the best one I could afford, set up on yearly payments and get rid of it before the first one is due. A friend told me when I was looking for one if a man has a dozer he better have a big pile of money to burn or a fairly large pile of money and a lot of time for repairs. I would say he was right. Not trying to be a downer but trying to be honest. Dozers are fun though.
I came very close to writing a check for a Deere 450C. Went back another day with a knowledgeable friend. Running it 1/2 hour, inspecting it carefully, we discovered lots of smoke coming from the rear of the under belly. Someone had piped the engine vent way down, and to the rear to conceal the level of wear in the engine. The transmission (cast iron) had been broken, and welded. I saved $8500. and a world of unhappy that day when I passed. Ultimately, I bought a Dresser (formerly International) TD7G. A tight little machine, but it did need a thorough going over. I paid $11500. spent $2500 on it, and about 100 hours. Now I have a nice little tractor still in need of paint. I'll be very surprised if you can acquire a perfect tractor under $20000. Typically, those priced under that will need something expensive. Buy a nice one if you truly intend to resell. Willie I'm no wear evaluator. I've done my homework on the internet. Feel the bushings behind the top center idler. The rounder, the better. Sprocket teeth should be blunt, and gullets should be round. At bottom, with tracks tight, measure several shoes. Chain pitch should be 6" or 6.5" something like that. If same point to same point over 7 shoes is 46.3 you've got some wear. They will never be honestly advertised. 80% means 50%. 50% means worn out. An undercarriage has consumed 70% of its potential life when wear reaches 50% by measurement. Wear accelerates in older chains, and sprockets.
I'm a couple hundred miles West of you and looking for the same size dozer. 10K is a reasonable budget for the mechanically inclined. On undercarriages, look first at the sprockets then the bushings on the chain which transmit sprocket propulsion. Tracks should have a little sag at the top, when a seller pumps them tight it's because of wear between pin and bushing. The International/Dresser TD7 and TD8's are very good, but parts are beginning to get scarce. JD 450's are very good too, but hard to work on and transmission overhauls sometimes prohibitively expensive. I haven't had dealings with the Cat D3, but hear they are about the same quality as the above, with much better parts availability. Case made a 450 too, they are almost as good as the JD and International. Sometimes you find smaller Komatsus. I had a little 7500 pound D21 years ago and it was great. Parts are very high and hoses are "special". They can be a good deal if hours not too high. If you get a Komatsu or any dozer, direct drive is preferable to hydrostatic for the kind of work you'll be doing. A little more difficult to operate but much less chance of a major transmission problem showing up an hour or two after you buy it. Bigger dozers are sometimes the same price and better made than a small one, if you find one a short distance away it might be worth considering.
Good information to know. Also, what about steering? I read a thread and something about foot steering or lever steering was mentioned. Unless I misunderstood what they were talking about, any information on this? Which is better?
With only 4 or 5 acres, unless you see an ongoing need. Maybe a D5 type machine rental? You can accomplish a lot in a week.
Most of the older dozers you will be looking at either have foot pedal steering or levers you operate by hand. I think this is more of a personal preference. My old case has two small levers on the left to steer with and I like it. You should probably run both to see which you like better. I know a few guys that say pedal steering hurts thier knees after several days of running. Some of the older Case dozers that have the levers in the center seem less in demand and can be had for less money, at least around here. If you have a local heavy equipment shop in your area they can give you wear spec sheets for rails, pads, and idlers to help with undercarriage measurements. A general rule is if the idlers are bumping the pin bosses there is considerable wear. This can be missleading though.
Wet steering clutches are generally much better than dry. The early JD 450 A, B and C had dry. I think the later C had wet and the E on had wet. I'm not sure about the other dozers. The transition took place in the 80's. Most older dozers had steering levers. When your hand is working the blade, foot steering would be advantageous. In your price range and intended intermittant use you take what you can find if it looks like a good deal regardless of controls.
I believe the C had wet. Willie
Yep, JD450C = Wet clutches. Also having run both JD450's and Case 450's the JD will do almost twice the work in and hour, so you can't really compare size numbers exact. I saw a D3C on craigslist the other day for ~22K doesn't look too bad, nothing on it but a blade though, I know higher than you wanted to spend but it's really going to be hard to find anything halfway usable for 10K that won't start needing parts in a week from using it in the dirt(rock) we have around here EDIT: just found the D3 again... it'l need undercarriage pretty soon
That's cool Boatmedic ! Nice looking property in the countryside , I like it . Sounds like you are getting ready to build a home in the future ? My advice would be have 2 or 3 low lifer dozer owner / operators come look at the job & get estimates from them to help make the decision . You might be surprised buy the numbers and how quick a feller with the correct machine could knock out the job . Then go look at a farm tractor to buy & maintain the road & property . Myself would not buy a dozer unless I really wanted one to keep for the long haul . And I did several times They sure come in handy ! Spotted this Case 1450 high lift with ripper . http://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/12099701/1975-case-1450 Old school Cat D6 clutch tractor with winch . http://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/11140837/1966-cat-d6 I tell ya what , as a middle aged contractor I've seen people blow money on all kinds of stupid **** that will never return on the investment . A dozer or any piece of equipment is a good investment if you have a long term need for it .
I've known many otherwise intelligent people who just don't know how to buy and sell right. When they buy they pay too much and when they sell they give stuff away. It takes experience to become good at it, just like anything else. Unless you see yourself as somewhat of a buy-low-sell-high artist as well as a mechanic, buying a machine to do 100 hours of work and then selling it might be something you'll regret.
why not just rent one when you need it . 2 good week ends and you would have most of the brush cleaned up, another week end or 2 and most of your leveling done. and write the rent off and the rental company deals with repairs , save some head aches ... just my 2 cents
We looked at renting them and even considered having a contractor doing the job. Rentals are 350.00 a day plus fuel, plus 100.00 delivery charge and most contractors are 100.00 and hour. I have never operated a Dozer so there will be a learning curve and that curve means seat time. Being realistic about it, it will take me twice to three times as long as a professional operator. Also, I didn’t mention, the road I have to make is a county road easement that they never finished because there is only two plots (one being mine) on this road and both properties are undeveloped. There is a black top entrance off the main road of 10’ or so and that’s where it stops. I have talked with the county about using the road and with permits and making the road to their requirements (solid enough to get a fire truck back there = lots of gravel) I am allowed to use it. After the road is made, I have to call an inspector out to check it out. If he/she doesn’t like something, it would have to be redone and it may or may not require equipment again. Otherwise it’s a lot more work involved carving a road onto my property plus, I lose the land the road will use and I will still need the loads of gravel brought in. The objective is to control the cash bleed as much as possible. The county is involved with permits in everything out here and renting equipment or paying a contractor to move dirt is money out the window. We are building a house and shop and trying to do this without a bunch of financing. My mechanical background came from fixing what other people couldn’t or didn’t want to. I have always bought broken stuff to fix and then use what I needed it for and then resold it and done pretty well at it. Some say its wasted time doing it that way but, I say, I always get a free education out of it. And working side by side with “Video Gamers” at work that are slow in comprehension backs that up. We talked about keeping the dozer if it proved to be handy enough after the work was done and that was one of the reasons why the 10k limit was set. I can’t justify keeping a 20k machine for a yard ornament. :-D
Hi Boatmedic, Sounds like we are going through similar thought process right now. I'm about to close on 70 acres which will have about 30 acres cleared sometime soon. Trying to figure out the best all around machine for conversion to pasture, roads, and a pond damn.....all on a budget of $15-20k. Too bad you don't live closer we could set up a dozer cost share program.
Your logic is flawed. It is the same as mine. A day of somebody else's interpretation of what I want costs me $2000. After a week of somebody else having the fun, I've paid for a machine for someone else. The math is a little off, but buying a tractor gives me the opportunity to do what I want, not what somebody else wants. I love operating machines. I don't love fixing machines. I sure don't love paying for fixing things I didn't know were wrong. Choose wisely my son! Most cheap crawlers are in rough shape. There may be a cheap one out there with little wrong, but as a beginner, you may not be qualified to recognize it. I have the sense you are looking for one machine. That being the case, versatility is important. A few tractors were built with loader, and backhoe. I've never owned one, but they are cool. A big old excavator is another option. There isn't much you can't do with a 20 metric ton excavator. Old ones seem cheap. One professional excavator family I'm close to has several old ones. One loads the crusher, one the firewood processor. Another loads topsoil, Winter sand needs one. They make the point they could sell them for $10,000, but they'd spend all their time transporting one newer one for each job. A track machine of any incarnation is like a boat. One pours in money. Accept that fact, or hire the work done. Either way there is no savings. Willie
Yeah , sounded like you were building a home site Boatmedic . Have you looked in to cost getting electric / utilities to the site like water & septic system ? Another thought ? Say you go ahead & build the home , utilities all hooked up & paid for . Tax assessor visits and now has all the information at the courthouse to bill you annually for the new improvement's & structures . Would it not be the counties job to finish building the road to specs up to your new home being it's on there easement and you are the taxpayer ? Random thoughts
One of the things I love about forums is that so much wisdom (or random thoughts :-D) can be found. Even though I came here looking for info on tractors you all have made valid points and given me other info to look at or another way to look at it. Since I am not looking to buy a machine or start moving dirt tomorrow, I am going to take td25c up on his advice and have a couple of different dirt movers come out and give me a quote to do the project. I will report back after I get a few for anybody wanting to know. I have looked into electrical and septic. A friend of mine is an electrician and I know two plumbers. Water is at the main road or I can have a well drilled. Have not got exact quote for them but, either way I have to pay the piper. Yes, the county is supposed to finish the road. They explained to me that both properties were undeveloped so they did not see a reason to put a road in and had no time table to do so while they were vacant. They will probably put it in after I develop my property but in the mean time, if I want to use their road I have to grade and gravel it to support the weight of a fire truck.
You sound like a great candidate for an antique Cat. If you look at older dozers you can find a real nice one for less than $10,000. That kind of money can get you one in really good shape. Just be sure and get one with good undercarriage, if you are experienced in fixing things you may be able to evaluate everything else. A lot of times an old Cat is for sale really cheap just because it hasn't been started for years. Lurk on ACMOC for a while.
That sounds like a plan Boatmedic . Might even meet with the county inspector first and get specs / drawings on what they want on the road bed . That way you can hand a copy to the dirt guy giving the estimate & everyone's on the same page so to speak . I brought up the electric / utilities as they get overlooked some times . Average cost for the rural power company in my area on a simple " hook up " to a new home is around $ 4,500.00 . And that's with me digging the ditch & backfilling the primary cable . Water meter set is $ 800.00 , then pay the dirt guy to dig trench to the home . Average gravity septic bed around $ 7,000.00 It all adds up quick . A good dirt contractor will save the customer money from the beginning looking at the site & pointing out problem area's before they become a cost or headache for the customer . There are to many to list . One of the biggest issues I have to deal with is the home building contractor has the top of the basement / foundation walls to low for the site . We have somewhat "hilly " rolling ground so water is always an issue . New home gets built . Homeowner then sees the water issue after the fact . Then calls some low lifer like td25c to put up a retaining wall or bring the dozer and cut surrounding grade down around the new home . Don't get me wrong as I like the work but Damn ! The home builder could have saved the customer a hell of allot of money if they just added 12 inches to the foundation . If your going to screw up on a basement or foundation build it a little to tall next time . Allot easier to haul in a little top dirt to push up to the new home . Rant over .
Amen, td25c! Good example is the house we bought two years ago. Wonderful basement, near 8' ceiling, dry as you could want, and clean. But some #÷×@$# stacked the fill on three sides of the house above the top of the foundation! It's well onto the band board. Good thing it has very well done stucco, but stucco should daylight 8" above ground, not 8" below! One has to wonder how much more it cost to dig the basement that extra foot instead of leaving the sill well above grade? Sigh, just one more project.
I bought my old loader with the intent to use it at least five to ten years, that will get most of my investment back heaven forbid a major failure occurs. I use it for a lot of small work most grade contractors decline on as too short duration, when I had the roads put in I had a contractor set them one for time on site and two for a great price. I had it here when dug the basement otherwise would have contracted that out as well.
What county is your property in. The bank run gravel with the scotch bloom looks pretty familiar. As you probably know plenty of people with plenty of time can get about anything done. Problem is the permits and the local government standing by with their hands out. The guy that knows them well will get the job done faster and cheaper than you would ever have a chance for. Check around for that small contractor with the dump truck, dozer and an excavator who knows everyone in the county. I see plenty of small dozers and they are either worn out or have been sitting for so long all the joints are frozen. Either way they will either need plenty of labor and/or parts by the wheel barrel load. If you have lots of time and a moderate amount of money go for it. In the end though you likely won't save any money by doing it yourself. If you still want photos of what to look for, post it up. I have lots of those.
The property is in Pierce County and in Graham. Scotch Bloom is the State weed and those rocks grow by the dozens everywhere around here. I had a few days to chew on everything everybody mentioned. I called a dirt contractor up last week and kinda mentioned what I was trying to do. Yea, he went into things I had not thought of and even mentioned permits are required to clear the brush and move the dirt. So, I'm thinking it's looking more and more like the job is gonna get hired out. I am meeting with him Monday or Tuesday to walk the property. As was suggested in an earlier reply, we will probably just end up getting a loader/backhoe or a Skid-steer and a mini excavator after all the big work is done. We put up 80' of retaining wall and chain link fence in front of our house and the the soil (or should I say rocks) was just as bad here. I rented the machines a couple of times but there was a lot of time working shovels and when I showed the misses the pictures of the dirt from the property, her first comment was "we are getting a tractor" I'm just so blessed that she iis on my side for getting tools.
That's a real nice area and the ground is good for building on. It doesn't grow much of anything but Douglas Fir trees, weeds and moss. Pierce County has been following what King County was doing over the last ten or so years and building permits are getting complicated and expensive. A good dirt contractor can be your best friend. Good Luck!