I am looking at getting in to the portable crushing business and am looking for input. My area is extremely rocky (basalt) and just about any excavation results in a lot of excavated rock. Big projects are using large onsite crushing plants (multiple trailers, etc.). There are only a few large plants and they are tough to get. My thought is it have a smaller, self-contained plant in the 50-100 ton/hr size for use on smaller projects. Local contractors tell me there is a demand for such a service. Right now, most of them pay to haul excavated rock to a local quarry, who then crushes it. The contractors then have to buy finished product and haul it back to the job site. I would like to be able to output 2"- and 3/4"- as these are the two most used sizes of crushed rock. I have quite a bit of excavation experience, but no exprience with crushing. I am looking for input on suggested crushers, things to be aware of that someone new to crushing might not know, any resources on life cycle/maintenance costs, or anything else you can think of. Thanks!
The first thing you have to be aware of is what is your source material, virgin rock or recycle/FRAP from highway demolition. Is the material contaminated with un-crushable material? ie manholes, rebar etc. Previous experience recommends KPI FT4250 It's a track mounted HSI crusher / screen that can do exactly as you mentioned. It can screen 3/4 off to one side and 2" out the tail. Big grizzly bed for feeding . Very common on highway jobs out here. You can adjust the aprons up or down to your desired size, you can select the discharge by selecting your screen cloth appropriately. Now back to the original uh-oh! know your feed material. Any iron fed into a crusher will cause damage. If you know your gonna feed some contaminants , use softer bars for contaminated ,use harder high chrome for virgin material with high silicate. These tips are for any HSI crusher. Not just KPI , I just know this product , that's why I recommend it. Oh and BTW FRAP sucks. It blinds over your grizzlies and screen cloth. more time spent cleaning than crushing Plus you'll need a water truck to feed the dust suppression system, most municipalities don't want dust airborne. hope this helps
I have to assume you mean a 2" to 3/4" product and a 3/4" minus product. As fun said I'd stick with just straight basalt, do not accept any concrete rubble. Even with basalt there's always the slight chance of a lost drill bit or steel. Without a jaw crusher you'll need a grizzly to screen out overize too large to feed an impactor. This could probably be sold as rip rap or landscape rock. With a jaw crusher, which will be another unit to move, you could run it thru the jaw and across the screen first. I think a 3 deck screen would be desirable as you could also make chips for sealcoat which usually bring a good price, along with your 2 products you want. You could make a way to mix the 3/4"to what ever the top size of the chips is back into the fines, usually 1/4" minus, that passes the bottom deck to get your 3/4" minus product. Without a jaw, if possible run the feed product through the impactor first before feeding to the screen. As for costs and maintainence, I've been out of the trade for 15 yrs so I can't help there. You will need a competent weldor that isn't reluctant to go into tight spaces and is a fairly proficient millwright. I coined a phrase about crushers years ago: " The instant you start it, it's working to destroy itself", LOL!! Mike
You need to sell a lot of material to pay the bills.. The more stuff you crush, the more you wear out, and need to repair. One misplaced junk of iron goes through the plant can cause a lot of damage. Obviously money can be made, but you really need to have an experienced man running the show or your excavating business will have to carry it. Our jaw plant took an 8 inch drill bit, and I swear she came a foot off the ground when it hit. Split the toggle plate in two.
Thanks for the info! I only plan on crushing virgin material. It is almost completely excavated by ripping and rock hammer, almost never drilling and blasting, so the likelihood of having steel in the feed material is almost non-existent (broken bucket teeth are a possibility). As far as repairing, I have lot of experience in equipment repair and welding, so I can do a lot of to basic repairs myself. Please keep the input coming! Thanks!
cuttinedge, that's the main purpose of the toggle plate, to be the weak but cheap link!! Mike
EK, a loose tooth, with or without the adapter, in a jaw crusher can be, at the least, a personnel hazard because it can launch it a hundred ft straight up unless there is a heavy hinged screen over the jaw feed opening. Been there, done that!! Keep the questions coming and I'll try to answer them. Cuttinedge is right in that you need an experienced hand to teach you the ropes. Crushing rock is something that can be learned as you go but it can be a rough and expensive school. There's skills to learn how to crush and there's skills to learn how to keep it crushing. Mike
Thanks again for the info! Your answers and suggestions have caused me to back up a bit. Let me ask, is there a self contained mobile crusher plant that will crush basalt with input up to 18" (or so) and produce 3/4"- and/or 2"- (not necessarily at the same time) at up to 100 ton/hr? Ideally, it would weigh 80k lbs or less and be under 8' 6" wide in transport mode. Am I looking at a jaw, cone, or impact crusher? If such a crusher doesn't exist, what components would I be looking at to accomplish the task? Short setup times are necessary to service the market I am targeting. Finally, if any of you experienced crusher operators are willing to engage in some consulting work, I am willing to pay for your time. Thanks again!
You'll just have to google the small all in one units to see what's out there to fit your requirements. I never worked on any impactors, which would be lighter than comparable jaws. Some pretty nifty track mounted all in ones are made now tho I haven't a clue as to cost. A local contractor has one so I'll see if it's in town and if so gets some pics, cost and specs from him. I'd ask around to find an owner of one out of your area so you're not a financial threat to him and get a take from him on all aspects of one. He can enlighten you on all the realities better than any salesman 'cause we all know what happens when a salesman's lips are moving. As for consulting, I'll have to beg off as I'm probably at least 500 mi from you because I'm about as far east as you can get in Idaho. I'll be 70 in a couple of weeks and my body is making me pay for 32 yrs of working on crushers. I can try to help you all I can here or via E-mail and phone 'cause my brain is the only thing still functioning well and I sometimes wonder about it, LOL!! Mike
I understand that Mike, I guess I am just pointing out an example of an unexpected break in the chain. Unless you have the financial means, it's a lot more than just buying equipment, and starting to crush. Like you said check with the big guys and if they are willing to help take every bit of info you can get.
Thanks, cuttinedge!! We had another little line about crushing plants: "The amount of trouble you will have with one is proportional to the number of moving parts". Just a ripped belt because the area under a tail pulley wasn't shoveled out soon enough can cost several hundred $ and downtime. Just like a piece of eqpt a crushing plant needs a qualified person constantly watching everything. I've seen a few sit and run unattended but when disaster strikes it quickly eats up the wages saved!! Mike
Thanks, I appreciate it!
The unattended statement makes me think about those guys on the gold rush TV show. I know a lot of that stuff is scripted, but I laugh how the loader man has to run and shut the plant down because the don't have a plant operator.
I quit the gold rush show on account of all the drama. The repair portions always angered me because they'd take a 1/2 a day to do what you or I could in an hour or less. I could see where the show was headed in the first episode when he was getting strung out about how deep the river was when he had to ford the hoe through it. He had a good depth gauge right on the end of the stick!! Mike
Not uncommon for the loader operator to have to shut the crusher down he has the best view and should be monitoring constantly even with guys on the ground A remote sure is nice though...
I disagree. If you're digging out of the bank, it's pretty hard to keep an eye on things especially on a large spread. I find your ears to be a good indication. Everything runs at a constant drone. A slight change in the sound of the gen set or the screen can get your attention. The man in the tower if it's in the right place has a bird's eye view as far as the goes. It is a collective effort. I've seen the jaw set 90 degrees to the rest of the spread in a tight area, so the loader man can only see his side of the primary, and the back of the surge bin. I'M not saying his eyes are not important, but I would rather have boots on the ground and 2 way radios.
EK, I contacted my friend today and his is a KPI 4250, says it will take a 2 1/2 ft rock. Track mounted, weighs 65 ton and he'll sell it for, please sit down, $350k. I think it's about 3 yrs old. Mike
Ooof! That KPI rig is nice, but bigger (and more expensive) than what I am looking for.
I figured as much but this gives you a direction to look in. Mike
If your planning to take 18" rock down to 3/4" at the rate of 100 ton an hour, your looking at big bucks. Then you need a loader, then some sort of conveyor stacker. Then as Fun said, dust suppression system. I don't know if you have Zoning issues to deal with. Then I know you'll have MSHA to deal with. Epa permits. Fire suppression is law. Daily inspection forms. Quarterly forms. Miner training. Hearing loss protection plan with baseline testing. You will be subject to at least yearly inspections. (No warnings on the inspections with monetary fines). Then more support equipment like a skiddy to clean around plant. ( Unless you have a fetish for shoveling). A truck of two to get the raw product in and finished out unless your willing to count on other people to do that, keeping in mind you are at their mercy. I forgot, Msha training for employees plus first aid training for each. Onsite bathrooms. Personal Protection items and the list goes on and on. But thats how I got started, by filling a niche. So if got the desire, by all means go for it!!!! Time will fly by when your having so much fun... fastest 50 years of my life!!!!!!
Rules take the fun out of everything
The cone crusher is gonna probably be the best fit for you, however it's not gonna produce the tonnage. A Kodiak will take whatever you can fit in the feeder, and produce 2" all day long. Over feed it and you'll be lookin at down time, disassembly, clean out blah blah blah. The jaw is an excellent primary as stated earlier, I still feel a track mounted HSI is the best fit for the tonnage you're trying to produce. The down side is, you try to knock 18" down to 2 it'll flood over the transverse recirc belt, over load the recirc conveyor back to the feeder. And on top of all that you'll be consuming the machine from the inside out. By mobile application, are you meaning that you want a plant you can move from pit to pit, along a highway project or just not A/C powered stationary plant. You stated that your source was gonna be virgin which minimizes the possibility of foreign object damage. Now, being in the Midwest and not familiar with Basalt , I googled it. Wow, you're gonna consume parts. It's high silicone, aluminum oxide, and fine grain structure. We can crush limestone out here for 1000's of hours before flipping the bars or changing wear plates. (with a good feeder operator and 6-8" feed size. You try to break this stuff, you're gonna need a jaw. Let the rock crush the rock. You're also gonna have to educate the loader operator to choke the jaws. give it some room to let the rock squash the rock. I don't see a single product that will fit your need. Ideally , you want a jaw to reduce your 18-24 primary to a 6-8 then feed that product directly to a cone with this combination , I'm confident you can hit your target and then some. Down side to this is you'd have 2 plants consuming between 8-12 gallons/hour one operator observing and maintaining the jaw (jaw needs greasing every 2 hours with synthetic) one operator for the cone, less maintenance but still needs observation, he can also observe the belts and screens . Like Grandpa stated, you're gonna have all the peripheral costs. I can refer you to a guy who knows sooooo much more than I . He's a company head , but more than that he gets off on breakin rock. He's closer to you than I (ND) . All in you're looking at a huge up front investment, plus supporting equipment and personnel and training but once yer set up, you should be making back your investment. Please , for your sake and those who work under you, Don't ever compromise on parts , regardless of brand you choose. Wear parts are designed to be sacrificial , There's a reason they use grade 5 hardware to assemble. Don't be tempted to use grade8 . Open and insect your machine daily. There's no excuse for consuming the machine. It will tell you what it needs. When it needs parts and maintenance, get after it. If not , you'll pay dearly with extended downtime and rebuilding/replacing parts you shouldn't have to. Make sure you have a trained loader operator, or excavator, whatever your gonna feed with. PM me if you want to have this other fellas info.
Granpa is sooo right!! When you fire up a gravel refinery and MSHA shows up, welcome to a whole new world!! We had a local guy with a gravel pit, trackhoes, trucks etc. He bought a little all in one unit with jaw, rolls and screen. MSHA showed up and the unit was shortly sold. IMO MSHA is a good thing for the working man, but is a shining example of a typical federal bureaucracy out of control. They are of the mindset that there are a few idiots among us, therefore that makes all us of idiots. Fun is right about the need for a jaw and cone for basalt. However this probably gets back to a multi unit plant which will make several truckloads to move. You could opt for a 24"x36" jaw with feeder and an all in one unit less the feeder with impactor and screen. The jaw should be diesel powered with a hydraulic pump added to power the feeder, under jaw conveyor and, if needed, a conveyor from the under jaw conv to the screen. A control shack could be mounted on the jaw with controls for the jaw components and an emergency shut down for the all in one engine, or if possible shut down everything but the impactor but still be able to stop it also. By doing this a generator is eliminated from the loads to be moved. Dust control is best accomplished with a high pressure water pump and misters placed where dust is prevalent such as over the jaw, the intake and exhaust ends of the impactor and the feed end of the screen on both decks. This pump could be powered by a small diesel gennie because it will be handy for repairs if the welder isn't available at the moment. I have to respectfully disagree with fun about about the wear factor of basalt. I've crushed hundreds of thousands of tons of shot basalt in eastern Washington and an equal amount of glacial moraine gravel and a lot of the gravel wears more. EK, if you get into this business, run, don't walk away from silica rock!! Besides being an extreme health hazard it will wear beyond your wildest nightmares!! All the way from the loader bucket to belting. JMHO, Mike
My instructor for msha refresher always says," My Savior Has Arrived" I probably shouldn't link this training video but what the heck. We all need a good laugh from time to time.
Sounds like MSHA logic or should I say lack thereof!! Brings old memories of dealing with mindless ********. Years ago we had a MSHA inspector touring the plant, he pulled his amprobe out his pocket and hooked it over a cord hanging down from a conveyor motor. I badly wanted to ask him how many amps it was pulling, but I thought, nah, just leave it alone. For those that don't know an amprobe will only read amps off of one conductor of said cord. In other words in motor junction box or back at the mag starter. Mike
I don't know how to do your job, but my book says you're doing it wrong
Being retired from crushers/IUOE for 15 years I no longer do my job. What does your book say is wrong? Mike
That's the premise that most of these inspectors work on. They know nothing about the job you are doing, but according to their book, it is wrong
Sorry that we drifted off topic here. Really!!!
Thank you
OK, gotcha!!
That's OK!! Happens all the time and not just here. I call it a thread drifting sideways. Mike
Thanks again for all the input! The intent is to be able to move from site to site easily and quickly and to address smaller excavation projects that aren't being addressed now. If I could do 50 tons/hour, that would be great. I might be able to knock down the input size some to maybe 12" square maximum. The most in demand product is 3/4"- and 1-1/2"- for use in road and foundation base and sub-base. In my area, there are a lot of smaller excavation jobs (500-10000 yards) that are having to pay to haul off rock, then pay to buy crushed rock for use on site. They could save money, and I could possibly make money, if the excavated rock could be crushed on site. According to local contractors, there is demand for this service if it saves them money. Ideally, I would like to be able to transport the plant in one truck load, with support equipment on a second load. The excavation contractor would be responsible for feeding the plant under the crusher operators direction and would be responsible for moving the produced product.
EK, IMO the less the output of the plant you get then more than likely the smaller the rock it will take. Between trying to snag a niche market and keeping portability to a minimum # of loads, it's going to be difficult to satisfy both. As to the contractor feeding the plant, that can get sticky if you have a loader operator that thinks he's smarter than the plant man. You have to have an understanding out the gate that your plant man will take suggestions but his decision is final. Been there, done that too!! Understand I'm not touting my idea as best. With shot rock(it's what I call basalt) the size you'll get I think a small jaw, say 20"x30", with no attached feeder and a Texas feeder(google it) would break it down enough for the small all in one unit less a feeder. The Texas feeder could be hyd powered off the jaw hydraulics. The Texas feeder could be set up with a removable dual wheel axle and removable hitch so it can be towed behind your service truck if it's big enough or it could be fitted with a fifth wheel pin. The fifth wheel pin would work best as you can load the hoe, take it to the next job, unload it, drop the lowbed and go back for the feeder. With the Texas feeder it eliminates hinged wing walls on the jaw unit and a ramp isn't needed so the loader can dump in the jaw mounted feeder. If the under jaw conveyor isn't high enough to feed the all in one it can be hinged and extended to reach and the hoe can fold it in and out for moves. By my count: 1st load--- Texas feeder if you choose to load it, 2 product conveyors for the all in one unless it comes with it's own stacking conveyors and what ever support eqpt will fit. 2nd load--- Jaw 3rd load--- all in one 4th load--- whatever is left 5th load--- and, of course, the hoe Don't know the size of your track hoe but it will be needed to erect and take down the Texas feeder. This what I visualize as the best fit for what you want to do. Hopefully others will have better ideas. Another problem that will crop up with the contractor loader hand is getting him educated as to how big a rock the jaw will break without the plant man having to crawl in and break it enough with a double jack. Been there, done that also!! HTH, Mike
Not sure what it's like there, but if you are crushing for anything but private sale here, the finish product has to pass government spec. Provincial and federal have different specs.
Great info! Thanks!
Keep in mind EVERY time you move you have to re notify Msha. If your equipment has electrical on it, reestablish and re document all grounds. Oh, and if you use the other fellows loader and operator to feed and remove product, they will have to have the standard Msha training also.
I can remember 2 guys with ropes tied around their waist crawling down into the area above the jaw. Now the jaw is still running as they rest their feet on a 2 inch perch as they wrap a cable around a rock jammed in the feed. The excavator would pull up on the rock to make it flip down into the jaw. I asked why they didn't stop the jaw, and got takes too long! By the time it stops, and starts up again gotta keep the screens full young fella. Plus if it falls while you are shutting down it will jam. I was so glad when they put a hammer for breaking rocks like that on the feeder. I couldn't tell who was worse him for sending them in, or them for doing it. He lost a man in the 60s when he went through the rolls. By the time they got her stopped, he was in it up to his rib cage. It was before my time, but I thought they said they were getting ready to build the rolls on an old 544.they were bumping her ahead or something and buddy fell in.
Granpa is right about MSHA. They can be a real pain in the *** and your wallet!! For every moving part on a crushing plant there's a way it can maim or kill you. It's not a place for stupid!! We always stopped the jaw for rock removal and afterward the catskinner/loaderhand got a talking to about why it was in there. The really stupid thing I've seen done many times is fashioning a cable on a loader tooth to break rocks in the jaw it can't quite get a bite on or it's wedged between the cheek plates. That tooth can come out like a rocket!! We always used a piece of shafting about a foot long and torch cut so a 1/2" cable could be "molly hoganed" to it and a wedge cut on the other end. I guess I can brag a little and say after 32 years on the gravel refineries I still have all my fingers and toes, and none of my crew ever had any major injuries. Mike
You guys must have cursed me with the MSHA talk He came to the shop couldn't find anybody in the pit (we haven't crushed since freeze up in December) apparently when the boss let them know we were closed for the winter she must have hit he wrong button. He figured out that it was a mistake and just came up to let us know he was there not unreasonable to deal with but you must play the games there way he will be back wearing out the ticket book this summer
March and September, pretty consistent. It's like when they have to show revenue, I mean extortion.
MSHA for a crushing operation on a construction site? Seems odd, but the Alan, it's the government...
Honestly, EK, I think you should contact MSHA before committing to a plant to find what hurdles you'll encounter. They have the power to break you right out of the gate. The local contractor I earlier referred to with the all in one jaw/rolls unit was on his own property with maybe one employee. Mike
Yep, that sounds like the best path as it appears MSHA doesn't screw around and any fines are not small.
If, after talking to them, you want to go ahead I think you can request a courtesy inspection before buying the plant components to see what changes will have to be made. Mike
Here every crew, or one man for every 5 has to be first aid trained every year. Everyone on the crusher crew and asphalt plant based to have lockout training. Pipe crews need trenching and confined space. Weekly toolbox or talgate meetings for every crew. Daily jobsite hazard acessments. Monthly site inspections, joint health and safety committee, with monthly meetings. Annual leadership training for supervisors. Annual safety orientation for all employees. And copies of all that paperwork go to OHA. Every 3 years we have to pass a safety audit. Paperwork, random employee interviews. If we don't pass the audit, we lose the right to bid government work
And as always, it's all about the money!! Mike
Two years ago MSHA hit every small gravel pit around here. They cited every last one for something or other. One pit here was a one man river rock operation with a small 1950s Manitowoc dragline and only his one truck that he drove. No other equipment. They shut him down until he made and installed all kind of guards for the moving parts in his dragline as they claimed in the citation that one of his employees could get injured if they went in the house while he was operating. He appealed the citation as he has no employees but lost. They picked him to death on the re-inspection and he was shut down for almost 6 weeks of his summer season. They are not known to be human, at least in this state.
Yep, OIH, that sounds the SOP of MSHA. Maybe Trump will cut their budget a little. Mike
^^^^^^^^^^ Trump has already stated he wants to reduce regulations, the downside is it takes a lot of time to steer a ship. If he cuts their budget, they'll just generate more through fines and fees
Hi EK701 You should give the guys at Portafill USA a call. They have a impact crusher with onboard screen that would produce somewhere in the region of 70-90TPH of product. Plant only weighs in at 24ton/ 52,000lbs and is undersize load so is mobile enough to take from job site to job site. Www.portafillusa.com
Thanks, I'll take a look.
If a small impactor would work, also look at rubblemaster
Portafill had a new jaw crusher at Vegas
Just wanted to piggy back onto this thread as our operation is also looking at acquiring a crusher. We have a job coming up demolishing some hog farrowing units, which includes somewhere from 20-30k tons of concrete. We've gotten some numbers from a couple local guys and we can get it crushed for $7/ton. Considering the learning curve and headaches involved from what i've read in this thread, should we just pay the sub and move on? That being said, if we were to pursue purchasing our own, can anyone make any recommendations as to which type would work best for us? I'm thinking tracked undercarriage, 80k lbs with a remote, we would feed it with a hoe and already have all the support equipment we need. There would likely be some rebar involved. We would want it crushed to 1" minus. Basically small enough for a road covering.
A portable, track mounted machine , I don't think you'll come in under 80K. There are a lot of good product out there. I am partial to KPI . No product will tolerate repeated feeding of rebar. It damages everything as it is "non-crushable" You would spend a lot in repairs . The repair cost should justify rental of a hydraulic hammer . Break the rebar out of the concrete, then crush the leftovers. FT or RT 4250 HSI rotor crusher is about the most resilient platform yer gonna find. Hope this helps a little.
I was skeptical myself, like I said we're kind of starting at square zero on this crusher deal. Definitely gives me somewhere to start looking. Since I'm asking, how many actual crushing hours on a unit before you start to worry about overly extensive repairs, assuming no abuse?
The repairs and maintenance, it depends entirely on the material being crushed vs application. For example,I've seen jaw crushers eat limestone for years without significant repairs, but maintenance was not neglected. I've also seen a rotary crusher that couldn't run 16 hours without major liner and blow bar service. Customer was feeding it a super tough high silicate granite like rock. Again, it all depends on the job and the application.
It sounds like you are looking to do about what I do. We use tracked machines with a jaw feeding a closed circuit impactor. I would suggest a jaw into a cone for you with just hard rock. We have an impactor because of all the junk and steel we run through. We also can take just the impactor and crush concrete or old asphalt but I would never put hard rock over 6" in the impactor. We mostly make 3/4" minus or 1 1/2" minus.
Like jaclo, I'm jumping in on this thread because I don't see anywhere else to go with it. I'm looking at adding a portable concrete crusher to an excavation business.....50 ton machine or smaller. Anyone have a ballpark number on annual maintenance for a crusher like this? Also, any recommendations on type of crusher or model? Thanks.
Some kind of impact crusher is best for concrete if you're wanting to make it very small. If 3" is small enough a jaw will work. To make 2" or smaller its going to need a screen and then closed circuit it. Something like the Sandvik pictured above works real good. Figure about $.50 per ton for wear parts for an impactor for rock, it would be less for concrete which is softer.
Jaw or impact, ya gotta figure on dealing with some rebar. Mike
I have been very happy with the Rebel jaw crusher that we operate. It is made and sold by RR equipment. I mostly crush concrete and asphalt but I believe it says it is rated to take 10” minus natural rock. I can expect to get about 50-100 screened tons per hour at a 2.5”-3” closed side setting on the jaw in concrete