The skid steer suddenly dropped rpm while parked in driveway on higher idle and a little bit of black smoke but it didn't die. I set the trottle to minimum and was able to drive about 100 feet and park in an open shed. After turning the engine off it wouldn't start again. Coolant, engine oil, hydraulic and fuel levels all OK. The solenoid on IP is clicking when 12V applied to its connector. Cracked fuel lines at fuel filter and IP inlet and fuel squirting out when using lift pump. Removed air filters when cranking the engine but there is no smoke from the exhaust at all while the engine is turning over. Decided to check the fuel screen on the IP but it was clean.There are 3 springs (including the hair would) and one spring loaded seat in the transfer pump end. The spring loaded seat appears to be rock solid, doesn't move or slide in any direction, if this is correct why then the spring there? Also the small spring has one end open and the other end has flat cap. Not sure which end should point down towards the plunger (which is moving reasonably freely inside the sleeve). The skid steer was running fine before, in winter it is used to remove tons of snow from a long steeper gravel driveway. Pictures of the springs attached here. Not really sure how to proceed further, appreciate any help. The hair wound spring under the plunger is still in the pump (missing on the picture)
The piston goes in 1st, Followed by the adj spring w the closed end UP.. Then the adjuster w the Allen adj UP.. u can see on the small spring hat, where the screw was hitting.. Then the filter and big spring.. THE PISTON MUST MOVE FREELY.. if u shake the regulator, the piston should move..
Thank you pumpguy for the exact order of assembly. The piston is now moving freely. Reassembled and connected everything back, primed but no start, no smoke from the exhaust. The lift pump supply is good, single push on the lever and fuel comes rushing out from the bleed screw on the IP. But loosing the IP nut(s) on the fuel lines to injectors - almost nothing comes out. Is there any test that could be performed on the IP whille still mounted on the machine? Maybe the solenoid is clicking but not actually opening the fuel passage. I am still at loss how to loosen up and replace that thing. It is mounted on the bottom/ back of the IP and sandwiched between the IP and the engine block. Even when the engine oil fill tube and fuel filter are removed I still can't see it directly with my eyes. Using a telescopic inspection mirror I can see a small screw connecting the spade contact to the solenoid. This one would have to be removed first before a 23 mm socket or somehow modified wrech could be used but there is no room to turn any wrench there. This is the most inaccessible fuel solenoid. I can't even sink my flat cell phone between the hydraulic hoses deep enough to take a picture of it because of all the hydraulic hoses and control valve filling up the space. My acreage is on a flank of a mountain, the closest dealer is 260 km away. After the 1st 60 km there is a ferry on the other side of the river and then the road starts claiming up and goes for about 100 km on high mountain snowy road before dropping down in the valley. So it is really important to be self reliant as much as possible and this solenoid and the uncertainity if it is really working drives me nuts. If anyone has done this on Case 1840 skid steer with Lucas IP without removing the hydraulic control valve or the IP please let me know what tool you made or modified and how did you go about it. Thanks for any help in advance. Jelauesly watching videos where guys come to their tractor and can see the fuel solenoid from 100 ft away
How about cutting down a 15/16 wrench and using the box end..?? All u need is a 1/4 turn to break the oring seal. I doubt that’s the problem butcha never know.. Test.. remove the fuel inlet line that goes in the back of the pump.. Fill that cavity w fuel.. Crank the starter for a few revolutions and go look at that cavity… Is the fuel sucked down or still where u filled it.? If it’s sucked down, good.. that means the pump isn’t locked up.
Thank you pumpguy for your response, will try that later on and report back, it is now 4:40 am here. The instructions for priming the IP read to have the ignition key on and the two bleed valves on the IP open. That would imply the bleeds are after the shut off solenoid. I can only see and reach the top one, the bottom one is out of sight and out of reach. But when the top one is crack open and the solenoid is energized there is plenty of fuel coming out of it even when using only the lift pump. Shouldn't that mean the solenoid is open and allowing fuel to flow? I could try to disconnect the +12 to the solenoid and see if there still be fuel coming out from the bleeder while using the lift pump. If not that would prove the solenoid is working OK. Thank you, really appreciate your help.
That’s odd.. the top bleeder is for housing pressure (low) The bottom bleeder is transfer pump pressure (hi) Pumping the supply pump by hand, doesn’t mean the supply pump is good.. I thought u wrote if u remove the inlet line and cranked the engine, it was pumping/pulsing fuel out.? U really need to either loosen the bottom bleeder or remove the inlet line and fill the end plate up w fuel and crank the engine & recheck the level.. Make sure the throttle is pulled back to wide open..
Hi Pumpguy, reporting back on the IP test. 1) I have made a parallel push button starter switch so I can be looking on the IP while cranking the engine and holding the cell phone and recording. 2) before test, all bleeders and nuts were tightened 3) loosened up and moved over the inlet line at the back of the pump with the cavity filled up with fuel 4) took a still picture showing the back inlet full of fuel 5) started cranking the engine while recording on the cell phone 6) selecting a nice frame in the video playback mode that is showing the supply line spitting out fuel on the body of the IP while the fuel level inside the cavity doesn't change at all. Looking at that fuel level, there were no bubles, no swirl, no motion while the engine was cranking. Before declaring the IP dead, 1) is there any other test that would help to identify which part of the pump died or test which would prove which part is stil functioning properly? 2) is it better trying to buy equivalent replacement pump or would you recommend to rebuild this one since the gears are worn out and matching? 3) is there any special position of the engine pistons or the gears behind the cover to be set before removing the IP? 4) are there any precautions or things to avoid during the pump removal and installation? I know this is a lot of questions but this is the first time I would be removing IP on a diesel engine and would really like to avoid causing any uncessary complications or screw ups due to lack of experience. My driveway to the only public gravel road is long and steep in places and when we have this around freezing temperatures the snow is really wet, heavy and sticky and only blade or bucket removes it, everything else that has rotating parts gets clogged by the sticky snow that can compact and then becomes very hard. If I can't keep my driveway clean and there is a long heavy snowfall, nobody can get in or out from the house even to buy diesel fuel or gasoline.
Was the solenoid activated when you did the test.?? It has to be activated..
U checked the fuel at the RETURN.!!! The INLET is at the other end.!! Where u took the guts out..
Hi Pumpguy, responding to: Was the solenoid activated when you did the test.?? Y es, it was, I run other separate wire from the battery to the solenoid. The INLET is at the other end.!! I understand that and was wondering about: Test.. remove the fuel inlet line that goes in the back of the pump.. Fill that cavity w fuel.. To me the back of the pump is the opposite end of the inlet, that's why I run the test as described. Sorry about the misunderstanding, I am going back in the shed, do it right this time and report back. Thank you for clarification!
For anyone following along, the “Drive end”(drive shaft) Is always the front of the pump. If anyone following wants to jump in and help out, feel free.. I’m elbow deep in calibration fluid and can’t get to the phone to write a response.. It looks as though the pump will need to come off.?? Depending on this last test.. So anyone with any experience, feel free to chime in.. Thanks
Thank you Pumpguy, appreciate your help. I reconnected back the front line, removed the inlet line, topped off the cavity. energized the solenoid and hit the start button. The IP sucked in the fuel from the cavity like a thirsty camel while the fuel from the lift pump was gushing out from the supply line. That would confirm the lift pump and the solenoid are working fine and probably also that the transfer pump inside the IP is OK or at least is not dead?
It sounds like that part is working just fine.. It looks as though u have to get to that bleed screw by the name plate..5/16 wrench or socket.. Loosen that bleeder screw and loosen the steel lines AT THE INJECTORS a couple of turns.. Take the fuel filter down and make sure it’s full..(important) Fill it and put it back up.. Pull the throttle back to wide open and crank the engine.. Crank for a 7-10-1000 count.. 1-1000, 2-1000..etc.. Stop and look to see if the loosened lines were spitting fuel.. u can use yer start button.
Thank you Pumpguy, reporting back: I have made sure the fuel filer is full of fuel (it was to max), opened the bleeder on IP (the only one on the pump, no other bleeder located using an inspection mirror_ and loosened up the steel lines at the injectors. Using the 1-1000 count till 7-1000 count while cranking the engine and recording at the injectors. Only small bubbles appeared when there should be high pressure fuel in the lines, otherwise nothing in between. Pictures attached here: 1 IP name plate in inspection mirror 2 IP name plate before the cell phone disappeared down in the oily belly of the beast 3 marks on IP and chassis 4 fuel spitting out from bleeder while the steel lines at injectors are loosened up by a couple of turns 5 there is no onother bleeder at the bottom or anywhere on this pump (inspected by mirror) 6 and 7 for better comparison between no fuel at all and the moment when it should be under high pressure (very little fuel coming out at the injectors, only makes a little buble). I see that only 4 files can be attached at time, will make a new post with the remaining pictures. It would appear that that the IP doesn't pressurize the fuel high enough.
remaining pictures
is that not 2 bleed screws in 3rd last picture ? One on centre of mirror and one on left edge of mirror
here is a picture showing how small difference is between the no pressure and "pressure" cycle
.... .is that not 2 bleed screws in 3rd last picture ?..... OMG, I can't believe it! all the time I've been looking for the bottom one on the IP body. Never crossed my mind that I am working with the bottom one all the time while the top one sits much higher on the pump cover!!! Thank you!!!!!!! So now I opened the top screw, from the beginning there was just very little fuel coming out while cranking but the stream got better and now it looks good. I just run your procedure again (both bleeders open and 2 turns at injectors) cranking from 1-1000 to 7-1000. after that I tighten up everything and there is a little smoke from the exhaust but so far the engine wouldn't start. But it started smoking which it didn't do before!
I have the air filters out, maybe I could use a heat gun to warm up the filter case and let the engine suck warmer air while cranking. It's not really too cold, just around freezing but the steel wrenches and the steer chassis suck all heat from ones fingers. Maybe there is a sequence which one of the pump bleeders to close 1st and which one 2nd. I could do it while cranking the engine so there is no chance of any air getting back in?
Smoke but not start. In every step the air filter(s) is removed and throttle is secured in wide open position 1) heated up the air filter housing with heat gun. Engine cranks OK, smokes but no start 2) though the empty air filter housing sprayed WD40 all the way back in the rubber intake hose and then sprayed ether in the empty housing. Engine briefly started but died in a second 3) Re-primed again everything from the fuel filter to the injectors and cranked the engine while heat gun blowing hot air in the empty air filter housing. Engine smokes but no start. 4) noticed that while cranking the engine, there is not much smoke initially, then the smoke intensifies and then slowly weakens. I was taking pictures of the exhaust as quickly as I could but being limited to 4 pictures per post, I am enclosing the beginning of cranking followed by most smoke followed by weaker smoke. Camera time stamp shows cranking duration between 1st and last photo 9 seconds. Throttle was secured in max open, air filer housing empty, no air preheating. The difference in the amount of smoke is very noticable. Could that hint anything?
Before cranking the engine, close the bleeder by the name plate.. That smoke is promising.. Do u have the RETURN LINE hooked back up.?? If not, it’ll be sucking air into the inlet..
It is almost 1am here now and the engine is running. The tank was half full, the fuel was dyed, pinkish color. One of mine 5 gallons diesel containers was full of regular diesel. I emptied the fuel filter, in a clean glass jar mixed about a quart of undyed fuel with about 1 oz of Lucas Cetane Power Booster (about half of the reminder of the 16 oz bottle went in the steer fuel tank), refilled the fuel filter and primed everything all the way to the injectors. After cranking the engine several times I noticed the thickness of the exhaust smoke remained constant during cranking so pre-warmed the air filter housing, again sprayed WD40 all the way back to the rubber hose air intake, then four short blasts of ether filled up the air filer housing with mist and she fired right up. The initial smoke cleared up very quickly and in a few seconds the engine run with no visible exhaust smoke. Cycled the throttle between wide open and idle, all good. Disconnected the fuel solenoid and the engine stopped. Restarted after about 5 minutes, she fired right up without any hesitation. It is here 32F, 0C, right on freezing mark, pretty high humidity because of all the wet snow around. Thank you Pumpguy for helping and guiding me through this, thank you Bobatak for catching my unbelievable assumption about the top bleeder location and not seeing what was literally under my nose! I really can't thank you enough guys, there is no life on this acreage without a skid steer, especially in winter time. If I knew how insert here happy face, thumbs up and shaking hands there would be tons of them! THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
..... Before cranking the engine, close the bleeder by the name plate.. That smoke is promising.. Do u have the RETURN LINE hooked back up.?? If not, it’ll be sucking air into the inlet.. I just noticed your reponse Pumpguy. Thank you, it was all done and OK. She's now running, the confusing thing is that the engine lost rpms and power with the throttle very limited effect while the skid steer was parked running in the driveway. After I shut down the engine it would not fire up, no smoke from exhaust and during today we haven't find any bad parts or replaced anything. The only thing I can think of is that after Bobatak question I realized the top bleeder is on the pump cover and loosened it up there was initially very little fuel coming out of it when using the lift pump or while cranking. This engine will start easily while above freezing temperatures, anything below freezing mark requires a squirt of ether. The temperature here during winter drops down to about 10F to -10F. Maybe the injectors should be checked or adjusted to start better? I bought it 11 years ago from a dealer in Edmonton, ALberta, who took it as a trade in from a farmer. It was in horrible shape, the coupler was installed incorrectly ... The last two beginnings of winter the engine would suddendly die while running and how do you lift the arms to slide the cab over when the steer is on sloped driveway with a ton of wet snow in full bucket? And why it dies when there is fuel, engine oil and coolant, the solenoid is working properly...How to diagnose in such situation to identify what's really happening to be able to fix it. Never happens during summer. I love that skid steer and all it can do but when the engine dies and the machine is blocking your driveway full of snow it becomes really tough going. The necessity of having the arms up when the engine doesn't start for whatever reason is kind of catch 21, wish there was some reasonable solution to it.
Good deal..
Still puzzled how this engine repeatedly dies while running in cold weather. Could it possibly be caused by the little piston inside the sleeve in the IP fuel inlet assemly? If it gets stuck or doesn't move fast enough the engine could stop due to fuel starvation? All fuel lines and the fuel filter are full of diesel when it stops but no exhaust smoke while cranking even warm engine. And interestingly enough, this engine will not start on ether alone sprayed in the air filter housing if there is nothing coming out from the injectors. After you wrote the piston needs to keep sliding inside the sleeve when you shake it, it took time to clean and hone that little sleeve with #800 paper for a long time before the piston started moving faster. So there might be combination of icy cold fuel shrinking the sleeve a touch more than shrinking the piston and causing no fuel delivery from the transfer pump. Also the powerfull engine fan keeps sucking the icy outside air around the IP fuel inlet and the sleeve much closer to the pump housing so it could start shrinking before the piston does. If this engine stops again this winter I will not even try to lift up the arms to slide the cabin but will bring a portable generator to wherever the skid steer will stop and will warm up the IP inlet assembly using a heat gun. If there will be smoke from the exhaust it would confirm the sleeve/piston theory. It would also explain why last winter the engine started up the next morning (without any repairs) after it it died at the bottom of my driveway and was sitting there over night. The piston had time to freeze and shrink exactly as the sleeve and started sliding fast enough to function properly. Thank you for your time and your help!
U might be reading more into it than necessary..?? Didn’t u say it fired up after u added fuel.?? U might have some floaters in the tank.?? Have u tried back blowing the line before the supply pump, back to the tank.?? Take the cap off first, so u don’t blow up the tank. Don’t fool with it to much.. it’s running.. One more question.. when you had the inlet line off, did u happen to crank the engine w the line in a bucket to check the flow of fuel.?? I don’t recall asking u to do that. U might have “gelling” going on too.. r u running any additive.??
These days I assume nothing. On my 1840, the fuel supply comes off the bottom of the tank. Have you confirmed there is no water in the tank that could be icing up the fuel system? Doesn't that type injection pump have a strainer at the fuel inlet???
Yes Stefuel, he took it apart in the first couple of posts.. WELCOME..
...Didn’t u say it fired up after u added fuel.??... After the "diminishing" smoke while cranking but still no start I felt encouraged because there was fuel flowing out from the injectors. Had here an unopened bottle of Lucas injector cleaner and in order to make it reaching the injectors ASAP I emptied the full to the brim fuel filter, in an extra glass jar mixed up diesel with one oz of that cleaner and filled the fuel filter with that mixture. Primed everything and after that the exhaust smoke would stay nice thick all tghe time during cranking but it would not start yet. Only after preheating the air filter housing and spraying WD40 and ether in the empty housing (air filter removed) she fired up. ...U might have some floaters in the tank.??... Every time the engine dies the fuel lines and fuel filter are full of diesel. ...Have u tried back blowing the line before the supply pump, back to the tank.?? Take the cap off first, so u don’t blow up the tank... No, I didn't try blowing back in the tank. ...Don’t fool with it to much.. it’s running.. I need to have a plan in my mind what to try or test when it happens the next time. This time it happened on a clear driveway loosing rpm and power as I was just standing by the skid steer and was able to painfully slowly reach the shed 100 feet away. But last year it died at the bottom of the driveway, hundreds of yards away from the house with the bucket on the ground full of heavy sticky snow right when finishing the 1st pass down thru a foot of fresh snow. It blocked the entry to the driveway from the gravel public road and in front of the bucket was a 6 feet tall pile of old snow. The engine was still warm when I was back with a can of ether and it would not even cough up while cranking the engine and no smoke from the exhaust. I decided to come back the next moning with a shovel to empty the bucket. It was PITA because of the grapple cross members were in the way so after an hour of sweating I tried to turn the ignition key and she fired right up! And run till now working hard thru the summer hauling old trees from a blowdown etc. There is a post here in HEF where a guy used ether to make the skid steer to drive up on a ramp on a flat deck trailer (probably damaged the engine but the engine would run on ether only). This engine, cold or warm, will not start on ether only if there is nothing coming from the injectors. No smoke, no fire up, ether or no ether. Can't figure this out because that way the "fuel" bypasses everything and gets straight in the cylinders where it shoud explode. ...One more question.. when you had the inlet line off, did u happen to crank the engine w the line in a bucket to check the flow of fuel.??... I didn't try that but the speed with which the diesel was sucked out from the cavity was surprizing so the suction was really good at that moment and any movement on lift pump lever would squirt lots of diesel from the open steel line. ...U might have “gelling” going on too.. r u running any additive.??... This is the first time I ever used any additive to the diesel fuel just as an attempt to clean the injectors because in the manual it says you need some special tool to keep the injectors from turning while removing them otherwise a damage will occur.
U probably need to leave the injectors alone.. there’s nothing u can do to clean them.. And unless you have the special jig to take them apart and put them back together.. your going to break them and have to buy a complete injector.
The engine will not start without one or two short bursts of ether into the air filter housing. But with those really short bursts it will fire right up and within less than one second any smoke immediatelly clears up and there is no smoke from the exhaust at all at any rpm between idle to max so I think it may be a lower compression that is causing the engine not firing without the ether in cold weather. I believe that after Bobatak pointed me to the error I was making about the IP top bleeder location on the cover and fuel started finally coming out from there (which it wasn't initially after cracking it open), smoke started coming out while cranking. What would that indicate about fuel inside the IP? Right now the engine is running really clean but if it happens again I will do all the steps you mentioned before to really pinpoint where the fuel flow is interrupted or blocked. It's hard to troubleshoot when the problem is not present and I want to find out what it is and what is causing it and why. I really thank you for your help, I now have much better understanding of the IP pump and how to troubleshoot the fuel flow. The biggest PITA remaining how to raise the arms to start working on it when the engine dies in the middle of steep driveway with the bucket on the ground and full of heavy snow.
PS....there was always fuel coming out from the bottom bleeder....
I might agree that low compression could be the cold starting problem BUT that doesn't explain why it's stalling in the middle of doing a job with it. You've said when it's running, it runs nice with no smoke. To me, after reading this, It sounds like a fuel starvation issue or possibly a fuel shut-off issue.
....To me, after reading this, It sounds like a fuel starvation issue or possibly a fuel shut-off issue..... Yes, it must be fuel flow problem. Either the shut off solenoid has intermittent problem (but it is clicking clearly and "firmly") and if it weren't for the difficult access I would replace it. On the other hand, these old parts were made to last, not to have a pre-detemined life span to create a repeated business. When the engine dies all fuel lines and filter are full of fuel but no smoke while cranking. The little piston inside the IP intake was not sliding easily and from what I found on the web its up and down movement is essential for the transfer pump to deliver fuel to the high pressure pump inside the IP. That could possibly explain the abrupt loss of rpms and basically no throttle function but still being able to get the 100 feet to shed. after shutting off the engine it wouln't start again and no smoke while cranking till the fuel started coming out from the top bleeder on IP. Thank you for chiming in, this is a great forum!