Not sure where to start on this subject really,but I’ve been wondering that these manufacturers (I’ll use Cat as an example) are deliberately making things hard work for their customers.I’ve been feeling this through their dealerships for the last seven or eight years.They aren’t remotely interested in helping their customers unless buying new machines under an R&M contract.I’m not talking about parts staff as such,but it seems to me that if they can’t get parts info,they get no futher help futher up the chain.This leads to me sourcing parts that aren’t o.e.m (which isn’t a bad thing) elsewhere.They seem to be making many parts obsolete with no upgrade part numbers on relitivley new machines.They still build scrapers for example with a 20 - 40 year lifespan such as the latest 657’s,yet some parts are obsolete on 2011 models. Go figure. Then there’s the quality controle, or lack of it from Cat.Even some parts made in USA are dreadful.I watch the chap from Idaho running 37’s and D9H’s etc.He’s currently rebuilding a govenor his D9G 66A.Some of the parts are junk that he’s bought from Cat and he’s having to machine finish many parts himself.That’s ok if you’ve access to a machine workshop and have the skills to do the job. Cat simply aren’t bothered one tiny bit that the parts are junk,I’ll go as far to say that they deliberately farm them out to cheap shops with the intention of stamping all these old equipment users out. I also follow your ongoing issues with John Deer agriculture equipment and the right to repair debate.This is a terrible state of affairs that’s almost unbelievable,but it’s the way every manufacturer is going in the automotive industry. I’ve probably not put my point clearly,but I think others on this forum will add a few comments that get to the heart of the matter. Best regards,from a rainy Sunday morning in the once so Great Britain.
Take a leaf out of Goodman Contractors in NZ. They are still running 50yr old Wabco scrapers and still buying them when they become available. They are put through a full tear down and rebuild and make their own parts, leaving the workshop as in new condition. For them it makes economic sense.
Yes,I’ve been following them on Facebook for years.Very nice equipment.
Quality seems to be hit or miss with everything lately. For the most part OEM seems to be ok from my experience. I can't really fault OEM's for dropping support on the older stuff. You have to draw the line somewhere. 10 years is far too new to start making parts obsolete. Even 20 is pushing it IMO. I regularly see tractors from the 70s and 80s come in for repair work. A lot of times if its not a wear part (bearings, clutch, brakes, etc) or seals then its really hit or miss on whether or not new parts are still available.
Its not just parts, the quality of the machines are going down as well, even the "premium" brands. Over the past 10-15yrs between myself and my parents we have purchase several new tractors, trucks, and other pieces of equipment. They have all been from the top names in their industry, I don't think a single one has been flawless from the factory and not required either warranty work (some major) or us doing some fixing or adjusting. Some of it is just due to increased complexity of the new equipment, but it's largely a lack of quality control and general 'cheapening' of the products. We still have some equipment and trucks from the 70s, 80s, 90s that never had any warranty work and went decades before requiring anything but basic maintenance. I'm afraid those days are long gone...
As for the dealerships, I've gotten a similar feeling from Cat lately. They have zero interest in helping a small operator like me, even when looking at new equipment. I guess they either a) don't take me seriously or b) if I'm not a big corporate/fleet customer they just don't care. Thanks. I'll take my business elsewhere.
Example of modern industrial business. I called Cummins this last week about the availability of a complete Jacobs model 425A engine brake kit. I sat waiting for 20 plus minutes, then was shuffled on to level 2 help then again to level 3. The level 3 guy wanted me to run through the reason for calling again. Finally I was shuffled to Jacobs. And there the only info about any old models was no longer available. So basically anything 25 years back is SOL. It was like all of the manuals and any parts listing was shredded from 2000 back. * One interesting note though--the level 3 guy asked if he could keep my number------------------- {You seem to know your stuff about these old engines brakes, you mind if I keep your number for information reference}.
I have to be the smallest of customers my Cat dealer has. I have a 1994 Cat backhoe and a 1994 Cat dozer, not for business, but for farm type use. My local parts guys always take good care of me, although I'm a small customer. I've never talked to the sales guys and never will. I did have an unnerving experience with a decelerator spring I bought for the dozer though. Ordered a new one and put it on $30 for a spring (ok the bag says CAT on it I get it). The spring lasted less than an hour of use before it broke at the bend where the attachment loop comes off of the coil. Parts guy took care of me and replaced it under warranty. Second one failed the exact same way in about the same amount of time. Bad run of springs, maybe. I bought a similar sized spring at a local hardware store for half the price (of course no CAT bag so I was sad) and so far it's still doing the job, weird. I read stories on this site about much, much, much bigger customers having problems with much newer equipment, or brand new equipment of various brands that just should not happen. The same thing thing happens with cars, look at the multi-million vehicle Tekata air bag recalls as an example of a supplier putting out faulty parts to multiple manufacturers. Did Tekata not know their air bags were bad? Did the vehicle manufacturing companies not have Q.C. departments that should once in a while grab some bags from the production lines for testing to ensure quality and engineering compliance? Quality control is absolutely not what it was 50 years ago, nor is it valued as much. Personally I think this is a global issue with multinational companies that no longer place quality and engineering as top metrics in their business models. Offsetting carbon emissions and DEI policies in addition to the almighty bottom line have taken a front seat to quality, dependability and longevity. Just my .02 cents and not meant to be political in any manner as this is a global issue not limited to any particular country or company.
This happened to me around 2010 or so, we had a fitting in a plastic radiator tank in a 2001 or so KW break off and would not hold water any more. Parts already obsolete. Took it to an old fashioned rad shop (far away) and put our heads together with a fitting from a GM truck and a file, got it to work again, but what a load of garbage to have to do that to a very modern truck at the time, it was a sign of things to come.
You are completely right about the companies shift in focus, however the consumer is just as much to blame. Ultimately the customer still has a say in how things are made, quality, etc by voting with their dollars. The problem is those of us who still care, make our voices heard, and spend accordingly are outvoted by the mass of simpletons who just want cheap and tons of it. I think it is a societal shift from quality to quantity and manufacturers are more than willing to oblige.
Simple---these corporations have invested in new----they don't want to sell old. And not going to, it's take it or leave it, and put up with sourcing parts for older machines. * At this moment the heads/coe's of all the companies are out playing golf this Sunday morning and could care less what anyone thinks.
It was like there was a switch that was flipped and everyone just stopped caring. The parts department used to be awesome at my local cat dealer, then they just stopped caring. The messed up thing is it's all the same people that are working there. I'm an independent mechanic and I don't know know how many thousands of dollars I've had to eat in labor because of their mistakes. They have also cutoff diagnostic support to anyone that can't prove they own a machine. I bought a com3 adapter there a few years ago no problem. It quit working and they wouldn't sell me a new one. Their service department is booked weeks out and they are so threatened by people like me that they wont sell to me. I've heard to other 3 dealers in my area don't care and will still help you out. Even from the tech support dept. It seems like there's a bit of shift away from cat in my area because of all of this.
I'm not sure I can agree with you on this. Did anyone come to the off-road industry and say hey are you folks interested in Tier 2, Tier 3, Tier 4 off-road diesel equipment or would you rather just keep less complex more reliable regular old diesel engines that have worked forever? Or were those changes forced upon the consumer? You need a new machine, this is what you have to buy now. The company that needs the new machine doesn't have a choice unless they make the decision to set up shops to buy old and completely refit including making parts that are now unavailable. Same thing for electric vehicles, did anyone ask the American consumer if they wanted to do away with internal combustion engines? The government is trying to forcefully outlaw gas vehicles and the consumer is doing their best to vote against it with their buying practices even with the Federal cash back to buy electric. That's why Ford has lost billions on it's electric/hybrid programs. In a truly free market the consumer would be much more to blame, but with regulatory agencies and multinational corporations that feel no allegiance to any country driving the marketplace, I don't blame the consumer quite as much due to lack of free choice
Fair point.
I can't argue with any of that, regulatory issues aside though, manufactures are making what the consumer 'wants' while doing everything they can to maximize profits. By and large, today's consumers value features, technology, and performance over quality, reliability and longevity, and they want it as cheap as possible. The manufacturers are more than willing to oblige, building in features is often cheaper than building in quality. On that same note, in the never ending race for features/technology/performance things become outdated even quicker. New models every year or two that everyone has to run out and buy. Couple this with the accessibility to consumer debt, and you have the throw away society that we now live in. Round and round the cycle goes, and the consumers are the ones that are ultimately losing, though most don't realize it. This goes way beyond vehicles and equipment, look at most any durable good made now vs the exact same thing 30-40-50yrs+ ago.
I really think that the big players need to be careful though. Otherwise upstarts like Sany and others may gain a foot hold.
What would be the point in having a design department and continuing to manufacture and sell the same idea over and over again. Every new design has been built with a time span--planned obsolescence. The money is not in the sale of the whole machine new--it's in parts sales/service. Whether it's good service or not. Example--widow regulator, just how many vehicles come with manual rollup windows--just about zero. The public wanted push button operation, so they got what they wanted. And along with it a expensive power window regulator to replace. The car companies were more than happy to oblige, the manual regulator lasted way too long, no parts sales. Below is a fine example, cost of power window regulator $190.00-with a motor not much bigger than a slot car motor. Time to replace 2 hours. Life expectancy about 3 months to 1 year. How many did I change out of a fleet of 26 of this exact model about 65. Add that one up. As far as warranty forget it.-----Push button convenience--the public demands it they get it two fold. *
I’ve seen some Sany equipment around recently. I wonder if it’s any good?
Besides---this kind of manufacturing is what keeps guys like us busy.
All good points gentlemen. MG84 with regard to what the consumer wants, one thing is for sure, fewer and fewer “consumers” want to be able to repair anything. Even fewer have the critical thinking skills to do so.
Kinda like this here coupler has 100 or so hours on it. I'm 99 percent sure it's just bad quality as the compress input shaft has new bearings and the engine is freshly rebuilt all the work was done by me. I'm at a loss. There like 700 each. Any ideas
Consumers want it cheap as possible yet a piece of **** half ton pickup starts at $55k.
As the emissions regs get more stringent and consumers want more bells and whistles the OEM comply and satisfy. More sensors. More switches. More harnesses. Etc. Problem then becomes where these parts are sourced. Why of course. The lowest cost supplier. I have a 2018 299d2 with 2400 hours. Electrical issue after electrical issue. Troubleshooting nightmare. Cat machine. Kubota engine. Two different operating systems. What a freaking cluster.
Don't even get me started on truck prices, they are one of my pet peeves. A vehicle designed to transport loads ( I know, I know many people don't use them that way) and they cost as much or more than a luxury car or SUV. I for one was excited to read about this minimalist $10k truck from Toyota. I think I would buy one if I can as long as it has AC. I have to have AC. I would still need my F250 for occasional trailer towing, but for an everyday vehicle, I'd do one of these in a heartbeat as long as the cab fits my body. https://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/a45752401/toyotas-10000-future-pickup-truck-is-basic-transportation-perfection/
Man that stinks but it's a good example of where we are today. I'm sorry to hear that. I saw a post on a Facebook group I belong to the other day where they had the entire (and I mean entire including plastic interior panels and carpeting) interior torn out of some brand new Dodge or Chrysler vehicle because the factory backup camera was not working. Get this, this was a brand new vehicle which was not even delivered to a customer yet and this was a warranty repair being done prior to selling it. The deanship mechanic was saying that he had done a number of the same repairs and that the manufacturer fix was to replace the body wiring harness. The mechanic mentioned something about Stellantis not really having good tech support for the dealership mechanics when they call the tech lines on these brand new vehicles. I had never heard of that company and with a little checking I learned that Chrysler is owned by Italian Fiat who is owned by Stellantis. Stellantis owns a bunch of other car companies too like Abarth, all of the Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge brands of course, Lancia, Alfa Romeo, Maserati, and everyone's favorite Opel among others. I'm sad to say my son just bought a brand new Dodge truck. ugh
Even with the 25% import tariff they mentioned that's still not bad. Crazy thing is less than 15 years ago one of the local GM dealers was selling brand new base model 1500 extended cabs with 4wd for only a couple thousand more than that Toyota if you included the import tariff in the Toyota's purchase price.
That's right. I gave up on buying OEM parts.. been using aftermarket parts for years now. Anyhow it is cheap.. better than spending a bunch of money meanwhile getting poor parts.
That Toyota looks more like a Landcrusier than a Hilux.
I grew up with the saying " if you can't afford a Ford then dodge a Dodge". Looks like that expression is still valid today.
Well Cat are still supplying parts to Russia, so what do you expect. American Caterpillar equipment continues to be supplied to Russia through British dealer - The Insider - Euromaidan Press Despite Caterpillar's announced exit from Russia, its equipment worth millions of dollars is still entering the country through a complex international network. euromaidanpress.com
Some excellent and well thought out posts here lads. I’ll come back to this post later when I have more time
I have an Audi A4 and the ad blue warning light came on, I took it to a local garage but they could not diagnose it with their computer so had to go to the Audi main dealer, they told me the pump had failed and would have to be replaced however the pump is inside the ad blue tank and must be replaced also, the external control module for the ad blue has to replaced as it has to be coded to the new tank/pump. £2100 cost ($2795) Bloody emissions . Unfortunately no aftermarket parts available so there was no choice but to pay.
Look into a ford maverick with xl trim, 25k ish, 40 mpg, 4 doors and a bed
I hauled a new one in the 200 class size. It was basic but seemed to function nicely. I have no knowledge of longevity or parts/service availability. The dealer where I picked it up was some 250 miles from where I delivered it, and the dealer handled other brands as well, so I would bet parts and service would be a huge challenge at this point.
I have started to notice there has been some very large Sany equipment around for 12+ years now so I assume the small stuff will be better supported than if that was all they sold.