I have a decent amount of time on ag tractors, but excavators are a new thing for me. I rented a Deere 35D and spent a couple of days clearing some of our land with it. Ripping out small trees and brush, moving boulders with the thumb, and making paths. I will need a bigger unit for the basement excavation, which I probably won't tackle myself. But I like this thing for these general chores, and am considering buying it. The land is steep. Much of it is 25% or steeper slope. Obviously my biggest fear is rolling the thing. Crawling up a steep slope is a little nerve-racking, but I haven't had any white-knuckle experiences yet. The guy at the dealer said it will work on anything that I can walk up. My neighbor, who owns and operates all sorts of machines, says I have nothing to worry about. It all seems very vague, for something so important. A couple of times it has gotten a bit wobbly, but I don't know how much is too much. How do you KNOW when you're about to get into trouble before it's too late? Youtube has a couple of things with excavators on slopes, but mostly not very useful. Also, when digging uphill, I assume I have the blade lowered behind me? I appreciate any help and suggestions.
Yes, have the blade on the downhill. When going up the hill you can have the blade behind you near the ground, and extend the stick and bucket out way up above the hill. Or you can go backwards using the arm over the blade and at times using the arm and bucket to push yourself backwards up the hill. Once up the hill, reach up the hill and dig out yourself a more level platform and place the machine on it. Then dig. Keep the bucket when full of dirt barely above the ground for more control when moving it. The machine can still work for a basement dig and you can do it. It's of course faster and easier to have a full size machine to dig and reach out of the basement dig area. But the mistake most people make is on how much dirt comes out and what to do with it and how to move it. If you just pile it along the sides you still need to move it which can easily be a couple of hundred yards or more. To dig with the smaller machine, Start in the far end and dig the outline down four feet deep and load into the dump truck. Once you're four feet deep dig a bit deeper and leave fill around the perimeter for back fill. Then do the next for feet deep leaving yourself a dirt ramp in one corner to get in an out. Slow, so a bigger machine for sure is always going to be better. The expensive hard part is to get rid of the dirt. You may need a track loader. You may need a grading permit or some planning to dump 200 yards on the property. The amount of dirt could be 20 full size dump truck loads or more.
Thanks for the reply. These are good suggestions. Let's say I am carefully digging uphill. Is the risky part when I rotate to one side to dump? It seems like that's when the center of gravity would shift. What is the riskiest part about digging on a hill? Crawling? Digging uphill? Swinging to the side? What can really get one into trouble? I wish there were clear warning signs. I think I will go with the bigger one if I decide to try the basement excavation. There are a ton of boulders here. More rocks than dirt. Many basketball size, many Yeti cooler size, and a few refrigerator size ones. The fridge ones I may need to break up with a hammer. So far they break fairly easily. Some of the rocks I want to save, so the thumb would be very useful for that.
you need to tune your butt dyno. Don't go up on the steep bank until you get a feel for what a full bucket does over the side vs over a corner, etc. Do not expect the machine to act the same when you jack it up with the blade, vs having the whole track on the ground. It does not. Avoid long reaches right over the side. Plan your work so you reach over a corner. Swing with the load closer, then reach. Less drama. There are clear warning signs, that is your tuned up butt Dyno. You can make flat to sit on with a fill, but it is going to settle alarmingly when you work over the side on fill till it gets some compaction. Plan accordingly. I was able to place all the spoils around my daylight basement dig and then some. Stripped the topsoil. Set up a rough grade and then got the magnetic target right. After the millionth trip out of the seat to check grade, these things pay for themselves when working alone. Rough dug it to + 2 tenths of a foot or so. This step may vary if you do not plan on a ramp down into the basement dig. Put on a clean up bucket if you have one and slick it off to grade. Dig footings and plumbing etc. cooler sized rocks embedded in natural fill is a terrible day(week!) on a small excavator. Consider hiring the basement dig out to a company with a big machine. Once those rocks are free of the earth, they are fun with a mini.
I think this should generally be your aim when working on a slope. Try as best you can to dig a platform that you can then move onto where the machine will be level, or at least close to it.
^sometimes a cut is possible, but other times you are working on or bringing a fill with you. You just need to have a plan to allow for the settling and room to move and regrade repeatedly as it gets firm enough. Here is a situation like the OP's. My nephew has very little experience, but I was instructing him and tracked in the bench. Everything 4' above the bottom of the trench is a fill that has been moved here and there. Do the long reaching over the corner. Bring the load in close when directly over the side. Don't swing full buckets till the conditions are confirmed. Us old guys have a finely tuned butt dyno so it looks easy. He was in the pucker zone for him. I figure the OP is feeling the same way.
The Deere 35D is called a "zero" turn machine . The machine is designed to work in tight areas so that when you slew (Turn the cab), the back of the machine won't hit anything. The machine for it's size and weight may not be as stable as a conventional tail swing machine . This means that on lifting a bucket size load, the conventional swing machine has more counter weight in the back and may be less tippy and more powerful. It also means a conventional tail swing machine may not go up a hill as well with a lot of weight in the back especially with the blade in the back. This makes the rear of the tracks bite into the slope, but the front uphill tracks may not be getting much traction. To climb the hill you may need to reach far forward with the bucket stretched 17' forward (Deere 35D) up the hill. A bigger bucket especially with dirt in it will give you more traction and stability on the uphill side tracks. You can also use the bucket to dig it into the ground up the hill and then use the tracks and the arm/bucket to pull yourself up. T o go back down the hill, keep the blade in front just above the ground, and use the arm and bucket over the blade out in front to stop you from sliding even digging the bucket and blade into the ground . Always be prepared to immediately lower the blade or the bucket. When turning to the side of the machine, pay attention to bucket size and material weight . A 3-4' wide bucket full of wet clay is much heavier than a 2' wide bucket of dry dirt. It can be best to get your load and bring the bucket towards you close to ground (a foot or less above ground), and then turn if needed. At first use some of the dug up dirt to help make a better platform for the machine to sit on. Make sure the platform is not wet soft squishy stuff. That being said, hill work is best not do until you have a few days on a excavator and know what all the controls do. Keep your seat belt on. Excavators do rock around a bit tipping and that is ok. Just always have in your mind that whatever you are lifting may fall out (causing the balance of the machine to shift or maybe the ground may shift), and that you may need to rapidly (like slamming on the brakes in a car) lower the arm/bucket or spill the load so that you don't keep tipping over. Study the lift chart of the machine and the manual, which can be often found online.
If the manual didn't come with the machine ask the rental company for a copy. I'm not 100% sure about the rules but in a rental machine isn't it mandatory for a copy of the operation manual to come with the machine.?
I was surprised how quickly a mini can fill a triaxle truck from a stockpile, slower than a big machine but not too slow. I had the driver on the headache rack pointing out holes that needed a few more scoops He was happy I didn't bang into his truck and didn't throw dirt all over his super clean rig.
A lot of really good advice has been given! A few thoughts....will say that my experience with a Deere 35D has shown it is a remarkably stable machine for its size. It does have decent undercarriage width/length for its size. We currently run a 50D (6', 7" width) and it also is very comfortable/capable on slopes. If I have the space, my preference on a steep climb is to stretch out the boom/stick/bucket fully; keeping everything just above ground level (adjust as necessary to conform with topography). With this method you can climb up some very steep slopes or stockpiles (with a mini or a 210, same idea...) If the material is too loose then you may have to track up in reverse while helping with boom/stick...this takes some practice to do in a smooth manner without (excessive) lifting of carbody. Then get the machine levelled in the manner that others have described. Once on a pad regardless of machine size I track back and forth several times (and even off track a bit, for width) this allows decent compaction of your working pad. The nature of our work often means a lot of deep digs/excavation of material from deep pits. My personal rule of thumb is NEVER any digging with tracks parallel to pit edge...common sense really. Main thing; just take it easy as you gain experience. Also as has been mentioned; levelling the machine with just the blade can be risky and unstable as you swing....ie suddenly substantial tipping event could occur. Best done only during preparation of proper level working pad. And always keep load low and tucked in tight while swinging house; then extend....I suspect this technique also reduces loading on the swing bearing. Good luck--be safe!
Knowing your ground too, I have glacially compacted clay here, you can't scoop it with a regular size machine, you have to scrape it, its like soft concrete but it'll hold the world on the very edge of the trench. Bud was worried about collapse, I drove a 20 penny nail into the side of the trench all but 1/2 inch then hooked my heel on it and stood on the nail.
I will add keep an eye on what your undercarriage is doing as you're digging. You run in to rocks or heavy dirt you may spin your undercarriage and get yourself in a real pickle. I have a fair amount of time in a mini excavator and my butthole pucker still especially when she gets to teetering. Worse I have grade controls and I'll think yeah this is kind of steep and I'll look down and it will say and even more scary number than I thought it was
I have a 2013 Hitachi ZX40 with steel tracks. Never came with a seat belt and no place to mount one without fabbing something which is very weird. It's definitely nerve racking in that tiny canopy "cab" vs a real sized with a cab machine. Feels like trying to sit on a kid's go cart . I can't use the pedals to track, my feet arent small or bend enough. Have lots of hours in a 200 and 330.
Definitely must be careful in the smaller units...We had a grey market purple Komatsu PC28 and there were no foot pedals...also barely room for ones foot!
Work up the hill, or work down the hill, don't work sideways . . .
May sound dumb but always have tracks running up and down the hill and don't raise your bucket very high going over the side and boom as low as you can. I've tipped many of them of all sizes but they will stop when the bucket hits the ground. Slid they down some probably 60 degree cuts. Once you've spent thousands of hours in equipment your butt will tell you when you are in trouble. Only machines I've turned over are skid steers several times back when I was younger. They always stop when they reach the bottom.
I find that if I open the lower window I have someplace for my feet.
Hello db4570: I own 17 acres of property in Northern California. Most of the terrain is too steep to walk and too heavily forested to walk through even if you could navigate the steep terrain. 3.5 years ago I purchased a Kubota U55-4 excavator after renting it for two days to cut fire breaks near the house. Since then I have cut horse/ATV trails on the property from 740' elevation to the tip of my orange pen at 1370' (see photo). The top of the ridge is just over 1/4 mile away. Most of the hills are 40+ percent in steepness with many near 75%. Many areas I cut through are not walkable. Too steep; too wooded. So, as you can see from the attached photos I've learned to follow the contour of the hills to cut just over 1/2 mile of 8' foot wide ATV trails on the property. I've learned a great deal from the pros on this site. That said, unless I don't under what you're up to then I have a bit of a different take on how to use an excavator cutting trails on a hill. First, going directly up hill in steep terrain is not an option. It's too steep for the machine and certainly too steep to walk after the cut. My 12.4k lb machine is kinda' the right size for what I'm doing. Not too light and not too heavy so that I can use it elsewhere on the property for smaller tasks. I study the hill and choose a cutting path that avoids large trees (over 2' in diameter). I have 12 varieties of Oaks (these are tough!), manzanitas, and various brush. I start the machine on level ground then clear the top soil and vegetation first in front of me, dig on the downhill side to find the virgin soil and then work my way back up hill in order to make the notch. I'm using a 2' bucket (450 lbs) which is not tippy with my machine (as long as I keep the machine level). I'm always careful to keep my downhill track on virgin soil (working across the slope). To do this, sometimes I need to cut the uphill side down as much as 12' to 14' given the slope--which might exceed 60 degrees. That is, looking on the downhill side it's almost straight down. I always cut over the blade! Why? 1) stability--I have thousands of pounds of weight in front with the boom, arm, bucket and material, 2) I need the dozer to push the cuttings toward the downhill edge using my angle blade, 3) I need the blade for additional bracing if I'm taking out tough brush or trees. And as a note, gravity is a b***h. Don't tackle trees that are above you or that have the gravity and weight advantage. Several times I move the excavator back, hit the tree with my chain saw, and then finish it with the excavator. My machine has the power to cut through 4" to 6" oak tap roots. These are on 12" to 2' oaks that might be 30 to 50' in height. I won't tackle anything larger while cutting in the mountains. Also, make sure your initial cut is about 6"to 8" lower on the uphill side. That way you will be making a natural culvert for rain water. If you don't do this any major rain storm will certainly tear up your road surface. The excavator is also a great compactor. So, back dragging multiple times with the blade as you progress helps compact the cut and clean up the road surface. I also have a tractor with a box scraper I use to groom my roads over time. It's been an interesting learning experience. As noted above, always wear your seatbelt! If something does go wrong staying inside the machine is your best chance. If dialog on this would be helpful I'm happy to share all of my mistakes I've made too. Best in your adventure. A
Allan M, very nice work on your trail/road building! Regarding the original question of the post about getting the mini excavator up a hill and digging, we don't know if he is building access, retainer walls, erosion control, clearing out an area, drainage, or just trying to learn how to get out of the hole they just dug or basic climbing skills. So this is just some basic important skills to learn and remember.
Nice work Allan M! You have taken a good approach to learning trail building in steep country. Keep road bed on cut---not fill--- yes indeed! critical for safety. I agree that size machine is very capable; also significant stability benefits due to increased width (~1' wider than a Deere 35D).
I also found that the 3' bucket (540 lbs) is a bit too heavy to use on a steep hill. Makes my machine tippy. As long as I keep my tracks level relative to the cut on the hill using the 2' bucket isn't an issue when cutting and dumping tailings on the downhill side. My teachers were not the Kubota manual...it was the guys on this site over the years as I've invested about 1200 hrs on this project. I'm almost at the top of the ridge...another 60' in elevation to go and about 200'. Unfortunately, we've had a lot of rain lately. I've been cutting in flour soil and it is now a mucky mess. I'm likely a couple of months away from getting back up there.
Hi Swifmal: What kind of machine has this sophisticated Pitch/Roll screen/monitor? Or is this an aftermarket gadget? I think it's terrific. A
If you want to be a cheap bassard like me, go to Harbor Freight and buy 02 Dial gauge angle finders with magnetic base for 4.99 each. They are analog and give you an approximation of your angle.
It is aftermarket, Trimble earthworks 2D with laser catcher. It was a game changer in the production sense not having to get out to measure depth, nor having to have a guy in the ditch with the grade rod, never over digging, and when I set transformer pads I can cut them level no matter what the ground around it is, I can use the blade to raise me up to level. So less gravel. And it never calls in sick or wants to take lunch. Worth every penny in my opinion.$17K there is a cheaper version called earthworks Go that uses your phone or tablet but you can't expand on that system, like adding a laser catcher or going GPS or UTS.
It amazes me how sophisticated the technology has become. You're working on a PhD level with your equipment. I'm grade school. Thanks for the explanation. Very cool. Just as a note, I don't think people that have never operated an excavator realize the power of hydraulics. It's amazing what you can do with these machines. I'd like to try a big boy machine at some point...maybe something like a CAT 320. Thanks again. The Trimble unit is a bit outside my budget!
Good information, guys. I threw a track off the machine but my neighbor (who happens to be a Deere mechanic) was able to help me get it back on. I am thinking I need something with more power and weight for what I want to do. Mostly a thumb to move boulders around, and dig footings. I am looking to rent a Cat 310 next. I got the excavator bug, and really enjoyed my time with the Deere 35. I really appreciate what can be done with these things. I need to dig a sewer trench down the steep (20-25%) part of the hill. So I need to dig up as I go. The nature of what I'm doing for this doesn't really lend itself to digging a flat work pad every so often. The next task is to remove the larger boulders from the future basement area. This I can do from a more flat position. Then I want to start excavating out for the footings, and see how far I can get digging out the basement before I hit a solid rock ledge. These I should be able to do from a flat pad I will prepare. It sounds like, in general, if I am digging uphill, and keep the bucket weight uphill with minimal swinging, I should be OK. It's just tough to judge by feel when I am approaching the point of no return.
On my tractor, yanmar excavator and the wheel loader I have a milwaukee magnetic level 48-22-5603 It doesn't give you lots of degrees, 1% 2% pitch but its a good eyeball and cheaper than the Grade 8 ball or whatever that thing was, hot item a few years back. Johnnyball? outside of my budget
I remember we spoke at length about your projects when you were getting started. Thanks for posting pictures Allan.
I didn't start there obviously, I have had the level in the cab, the paint mark on the side of the bucket, had one of THESE for a while, this was the natural next step for me. I work by myself most days and it saves me a bunch of time, it makes me more accurate with less thinking, so I can think of what's next or make phone calls to line up more work, or just simply listen to a book while I am working.
The Cat 310 is a nice machine and much better than the smaller 35D. However, I don't think getting it for weight and power is correct. The first step is to consider how deep is your septic line trench? The second best question is how much reach is a benefit. That is followed up by how much money do you want to spend on the rental (Weekly rate, delivery and pick up, fuel, etc). If the trench line is less than 6' deep and more like 3', then the smaller mini may still work. The larger machine does have an advantage with a larger bucket and thumb to pick up large rocks. Are you digging up and picking up 3000 lb rocks? I dig up rocks all the time and remove two man size rocks ( rocks about 4' long, 2' deep, and 2'tall) just fine with a 4.5 ton machine. It's easier with my 6 ton machine but that's with the bucket and thumb bigger, but not due to the power and weight necessarily. To dig the trench with the smaller machine, and even with the 310 you can climb up the hill (as described previously), set the blade, and dig going down the hill. You can also dig multiple platforms straddling the trench, move the tracks sideways across the trench and then dig sideways on both sides as much as you can. Are you using a 12" wide bucket? If you need to get into the trench and it's deeper than 4', you need trenching sides. Keep the dirt back from the trench at least one foot.
The main reason I think I need more weight and power is for the larger boulders. The more we dig on the property, the more rocky it becomes. At first it seemed like it was more boulders than dirt. Now it seems like 80/20 boulders/dirt. The attached picture is my (other) neighbor with his gigantic Deere 710 backhoe. All these rocks are a bit overwhelming. Some of them we want to save. So this is why I think a very strong thumb would be really useful here; to pluck them out, and sort them. The little 35D just didn't have the oomph.
Those rocks don't look to bad. Remember to dig around a bit and then curl the bucket under the rock to loosen them. Best not to just reach out and just yank them out. I do rockery work for a living. See my picture below of my 6 ton machine.
I think a 12" digging bucket will help to dig a bit in between and around the rocks and get in between better. Also a ripper tooth. It always amazes me that if the ground is full of thick stumps or large rocks, the machine can barely do any think. May be time to go full size big, like a 20 ton plus size machine or bigger.
Nice looking rip rap!
Your coaching (many sessions) is one of the reasons I'm still alive and haven't destroyed my machine. Thanks again!
there is no comparing loose rock dumped out of a truck for wall building, and an embedded small rock that got laid down and packed in 14000 years ago by the glaciers. I had one layer of rock at my place that were loafs about the size of wheelbarrows, no bigger. Same shape and size, and the glacier had laid them in like a Roman road. I had 120 rental and played hell trying to get started into them. The little rocks and thousands of years really cemented them in good!
Had both senerios last week. Rocks moved around and put back when they did the sewer on one job and then side of the highway type of wall on the other. I had pot holes the 2nd job before giving them a bid and it was like shelf's but apparently I didn't spend enough time out there cause man we had a hammer on a skid and one on a mini and a 2nd mini pulling stuff out. All these are early in the dig , I was so mad by then end I didn't take any more pictures lol
Yeah, that's slow going. I did a job out at Rocky point. If that's not a hint. We were putting an 8-in ductile water down the road where it got down to one lane and there was a gas main on one side of us. The old water main we had about 18 in to chisel out solid Rock. We got about two sticks a day. That was miserable. We had to keep that single Lane road open for the people who lived out there so there was a lot of movement but not a lot of action.
This section was from secotionalizer to transformer about 80' took 8 hours. The client after seeing all of the rock wants to talk to us about doing the water, gas, sewer and Internet, it is about 300'. He thought he was just going to rent a mini and do it himself it is a good thing he got a good deal on the property LMAO
Man, that looks like a bad day. I had to trench through about 80’ of rotten ledge for my utilities and had a migraine for 3 days. Thanks to someone that posted how to bend PVC with an exhaust because it had to snake through whatever alleys I could find, without a huge sweep because the pull was so long.
Tough going. Some of the serpentine deposits on my land are problematic. You know it wasn't too long ago that all this work would need to be done by hand! I did a quick AI search on the development and introduction of the mini Excavator. Here's what came up: "The first compact excavator (or mini excavator) was developed in 1971 by Japanese engineer Akio Takeuchi. Takeuchi Manufacturing introduced the TB1000, which featured 360-degree cab rotation and a boom swing mechanism, specifically to reduce manual labor in digging residential foundations. Wikipedia +4 Key milestones in the development of the compact excavator include: 1971: Takeuchi released the TB1000, considered the first true compact excavator. 1968-1970s: Other manufacturers, such as Yanmar , were also developing similar, early, small-scale excavation concepts during this period. 1974: Kubota entered the market with its first model, the KH1. 1980s: Compact excavators were introduced to the North American market, with Bobcat and IHI launching models in the early 80s." I'll bet some guys on this site have driven these early machines. It would be interesting to hear how these have evolved and improved over the decades. Bottom line, we can do things with an excavator that used to take an army of laborers to do.
I worked on a hard rock property in the Shulap mountains that had a high grade gold deposit hosted by ultramafic rocks including serpentine. We did a bunch of diamond drilling. Some very high grade gold was seen in drill core where the hydrothermal fluids had “backed” up against waxy serpentinites. We also encountered talc, asbestos and mariposite (good indicator of gold). I believe is seen in California as well.
I've heard that serpentine rock has a high asbestos content. Given I have a lot of serpentine rock on our property I just kinda' ignore the health risks. I'll likely get killed at some point by my wife in my sleep anyway. If I saw gold on the drill core I think I'd have gold fever! I think gold is over $5,000 an ounce right now.