Hey gang, my 82 year old neighbor, we'll call him N, is asking for help again, and with that is me also asking for help or advice. N has a neighbor who has a small pond that drains off into N's yard, across his driveway, making a giant puddle, to the point where N can't mow or run around on his tractor or anything. N has already tried talking to his neighbor about moving the drain but there has been some drama around that and it ain't happening. Enter me, withy backhoe. We initially talked about digging a trench the 650+ feet from the source to the creek, seen at the end of the yellow line in the picture below. Then as I was thinking about how much work that'd be for me, and how expensive for N to pay me, I thought of a well of sorts with a pump and a hose or some conduit to push the water that 650 feet to the creek. That sounded like a much less expensive and time consuming alternative, but I don't know anything about pumping water. From the well I'm thinking of digging to the creek has a gradual probably 10 foot rise before it starts dropping toward the creek. That rise is over the course of a few hundred feet, the top of the rise is about midpoint of the yellow line. Also, not the yellow line that's the street, the line just below midway down the screen. Is this possible? Any better suggestions?
Is N the top of the picture of the bottom? Digging a drain, helps the neighbor, by getting rid of his water as well I would berm it up to keep the water on his property. If you could move material from the natural high point to where the water enters his property. Hard to tell without ground level pictures.
Depending on local laws he may not be able to build a berm and block the flow. What is the sub-soil like ? Is a french drain feasible ? A force line from a pump will require the discharge to be below the maximum depth of frost in your area. How deep do you have to go to install a gravity drain in a 6" plastic pipe ?
for gravity to do the job, you are guessing you need a 10' cut. That is a ton of work for any smaller machine, let alone a backhoe. Take your time assessing this project. Just daylighting it through, you need a minimum of 1.5 to 1 slopes off the bottom of the cut. Say you cut a 2' ditch ( which is really small and hard to keep open through a cut ), you have 1.5 x 2, 30' wide, +2 for the bottom. 32' cut and what will you do with the dirt? at 1.5 to 1 those are not mowable slopes. They are barely walkable for a healthy fellow. All considerations. If I had some pipe that is where I would go. nice swale with gentle slopes till that is no longer practical, then into a pipe for the deep cut. I would not plan on pumping ever. It requires too much commitment and maintenance. put in a deep catch in front of the pipe and a screen to keep the tumbleweeds out.
How about directional drilling a 6 or 8 inch PVC line? I had a long low area on a road project. No outlet. Evaporation was the only way for the water to go down. The road had been a mud hole for years Just raising the road with native material had been tried but would get saturated and fail. The detour was significant and the county wanted a solution so they could improve and pave the road. The river was quite a ways away, I want to say 2000 feet. Probably a 15-20 foot "hill" in the way. There were a couple low spots on the way to the river so I had it set up to directional drill 10 inch PVC with a couple manholes in the low spots for clean-outs. Don't remember the cost anymore but it was a lot cheaper than installing a conventional open cut storm sewer.
N is the house on the bottom, the neighbors pond is almost exactly straight north of his house, and dumps into his yard where the yellow line starts. Then the grassy area to the right of his house and his garden are what get flooded. The ground goes pretty well from top of the picture being the highest spot to the bottom of the picture, so I don't think attempting to keep the water in the neighbors yard is an option. Unfortunately, it would be nice if the neighbor controlled his own spillway but again that seems unlikely. Tinkerer- I don't think there any laws to really worry about in our township. Sub-soil is likely a pretty decent clay mixture which doesn't help much. Gravity drain would work but that's gonna be hours and hours and hours of my time on the hoe and grading it downhill, which I'm only marginally competant with. I think frost isn't really much of an issue either, as the pond dries out in the summer and I think if it were wet it'd pump, but maybe I'm wrong about that. Skyking1 - I'm not sure what you mean by 1.5 to 1 slopes off the bottom. Swale, I think, would be easiest if the pump isn't practical. It's also not an area they'll worry about mowing it's basically right along the edge of the property line. My thought would be to leave the removed dirt on the south side of the ditch so if the ditch overflowed it would still hold some more without bleeding too badly into his yard.
Rail dudes-I can't imagine he'd want to get that deep into it. This is definitely a make something work kind of fella and he's not real concerned with how it looks. It's an area that will eventually grow over with honeysuckle.
Does the road to the left have suitable drainage to direct too?
you mentioned it would take a 10' cut to daylight the water to the other end of the property.
Well if it was my property, I would be telling the neighbor to keep their water on their own property, failing that I would be building a berm so they end up flooding themselves. Is there a ditch at the front road to drain into? That's a lot closer. If the area naturally all drains to the south, what about some kind of catch basin where it enters the property, trench a pipe a few feet down and go to the south property line? Wouldn't need to be deep if the land already slopes that way.
I sure ain't a lawyer, but in many places where drainage has been diverted to flow onto the property of another where it had not previously flowed, the impacted owner can legally demand that the owner of the higher elevation property redirect the flow of the water elsewhere, so as not to roll water onto the lower property.
what Tarhe said, if this water is not the natural flow, then he can sue to have it fixed, or block it at the property line and let the neighbor drama all he wants. Typically you won't have puddles naturally, but it looks like there was plenty of dirtmoving on both properties so it's real hard for me to see what was moved, and what was natural flow. A better layout of the creek, the pond, where the pond is sourced and drained, and where the water goes would get you a lot of armchair lawyers opinions. If the only option to remove the water is to go over the ten foot rise, then you could set up a siphon easily enough. It would be a little bit of a pain to re establish the siphon occasionally, but less trouble than a pumped system, the pipe would be the same and most of the cost besides the excavation.
Combining a pump with a syphon is the go I reckon. Once the syphon is working turn the pump off and the water will flow through the pump. A 4" pump can shift alot of water and are not that expensive
@mks I didn't think about going towards the street... That's uphill, but I'll have to take a closer look. Most of the water, in the neighborhood seems to come from the top left of the picture (northwest), and works it's way down to the right. In this instance the major problems are coming from the neighbors man-made pond and aren't an issue year round, but in the spring it gets real soggy. N's neighbor, on the other side (bottom of the picture) has dammed up his property line, so that N's garden also gets flooded. I think I'd be in agreement that maybe he should talk to the law, but I don't know if he's inclined to do so. Thanks, everyone, for their suggestions. I'll try to get a couple ground level pictures. It's a shame because the little pond is nice, and it's on a nice property, but shouldn't be spilling into N's yard, that's a jerk move. I will say that N is a junk collector though, so it may be an intentional move, by the neighbor, because N's yard is a mess... I don't know that to be true, but I do know how neighbors get sometimes. @Tonnes I thought that too, but it doesn't seem to be the consensus... I've never run a pump much though. I understand there are ways that it may clog up but aren't there also ways to mitigate that? Screens, filters, etc?
@ aighead, an empty oil pale can be recycled into a strainer with the aid of a pick.
that makes more sense, so the upstream neighbor may be intentionally being a jerk and diverting water. And the downstream neighbor dammed up that water also to keep it off his property, which is only satisfying in the short term because he's still getting the water, just as ground water not surface water. And that's the only reason not to dam up the upstream side, he'll still have wet ground from the underground water, unless you can continue that dam all the way to the stream. Tones idea about using the pump to prime the siphon makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't think you'd need even a 2" pipe if you have any fall at all after the siphon, but you can judge the quantity better than us. I'd probably use either 1" black plastic, or if you go PVC, might as well to to 2", but 1 1/2" PVC will move a lot of water too. A plastic barrel sunk into the ground with thousands of small holes drilled in it will be a good strainer, soround it with rock or gravel. The lower end of your siphon you want a trap to keep from losing the siphon, so a bucket or smaller barrel sunk as low as you can get, with the end of your pipe submerged in water 6-12".
Some water movement is state law, most is federal law. Generally, you can't change water flow. I'm guessing the pond just slows down the natural water flow but didn't change it. The guy on the bottom end that put up a dam sounds like the one who changed the water flow. As for a road bore to move the water, that sounds like a high dollar solution. I'd guess over $12/foot, maybe double that or more, depending on local rates and soils. Its a big boy machine that can run 600' in one go.
A siphon works pretty good. But put lots of care into your pipe fitting . A vaccum seal can be challenging to retain. Id use shedule 80 pipe , continuous plastic would reduce chances of fitting leakage. I built a 20" dia siphon to drain a lake on a dam project . It worked great ,except the blasters on the job could leave it alone with flyrock . A pinhole would shut it down so we did a lot of patching.
$600 ft at $12 a foot sounds pretty reasonable to me. The original plan to trench a gravity drain could not be touched for that money. Put it in a strainer barrel and for the most part forget it.
Thanks Gang, it sounds like the plan will likely be dig a hole, stick in a pump with filter of some sort, attach a line that will hold a siphon. Are there pass through pumps? Meaning can water siphon through the pump or does there need to be a "T" with one end connected to the pump, a 2nd end loose in the hole, and 3rd end is the outlet?
@old-iron-habit You saying that if I dug a trench 600 ft long, with my backhoe, for this guy I should be charging more than 7 grand?
Yes, nearly any cheap plastic sump pump without a check valve will work to prime a line that rises less than ten feet. They're just a centrifugal pump that water will flow through either direction without any resistance at lower volumes. Don't put the outlet too deep underwater in the trap though, that height will add to the pressure to start the siphon.
You would not get a 600 ft. ditch properly sloped and finished at that depth for $7,000 here. I assume that you will be doing a lot more than simply dig a bucket width trench if it is to be a daylight drain. Now you may be able to glue up a plastic pipe or two and lay them in from the surface, backfill it, and have it drain thru the pipe for that money. That may be the best option for him. All gravity, safe, clean and out of sight.
Hmm... That's interesting and I'm apparently way off on what I would think to charge for things. I dug, essentially, the same kind of trench about 4-5 feet deep, but about 250 feet instead of 600, at my buddy's house. It took about 2 days of decent work. He paid me around a thousand bucks, if I recall, and I felt like he was giving too much.
A trench is one thing but a drain ditch that will stay open has to be sloped back at 1.5 to 1 slope or 45 degree angle meaning for every foot of elevation you go out 18 inches doing that at 600 ft 10 ft deep would take a week with a backhoe at best so if I gave a hard number 7 grand would be the cheapest I would think about closer to 10
^ what I was saying, and that 1.5 slope is no great shakes to maintain either.
Ah! I understand now and can see why that would increase the workload quite a bit. Thanks!
So if you put in a 10 hour day for 2 days, 50 bucks an hour is pretty cheap for a back hoe. At least around here. I guess if you use the FBI rate.
@skyking1 I didn't understand what 1.5 meant. Similar to like 3:1 for a pond edge? 3 feet out for 1 foot down... Running that out so it is a legit swale (again assuming I understand what that means) is there and can be there for years is pretty much a PITA.
It is a ton of dirt to move for sure.
State of MO DNR has legislated rules as to diversion of water or release of waters across property boundaries, not allowed unless a Known drainage route(Creek) and if from an impoundment(Pond/Lake) gets seriously stupid on wording but does not allow for swamping a neighbors ground just because wanted a retention basin where you put it. I would really consider researching the rules on this through PROPER channels before making a mess that may or may not be legal.
Thanks DMiller, I'll advise him of such. It really does sound like it's not uncommon for there to be some rules against the neighbor's pond draining across several yards.
Let me muddy the water with maps for everyone to drool over everyone loves pictures right!
Definitely messing with protected waters with what you are doing... Over there at Possum Creek Metro Park is protected water of the sorts, which I surmise Opossum creek feeds into from the elevation map I posted in previous post.
This should help also...
Holy **** @Spud_Monkey ! Where'd those first maps come from? I love the one with the landowners names! While, yes, I agree that we are messing with Possum Creek stuff, I'd be very surprised to hear that anyone in the township would care, especially considering the amount of water that's being discussed here. I am going to discuss the legalities with N, just so he's informed of his potential options. I'm also pretty sure that anything that doesn't soak into the ground makes it's way to that creek anyway. I'm, by no means, discounting all you guys are saying about the legal aspects of doing any of this junk and I appreciate your input and suggestions. I think if no one is concerned about the run-off, through my yard, of the clear-cut 30 acre section across the street from me, they won't worry about a trickle from this guys pond. Not to mention I doubt (but I'm not positive) that N's across the street neighbor got/needed a permit when he built a decent sized pond to help the soup his yard became. Thanks also for the Slope Diagram!
I can also get fresh sat pictures within past 72 hrs, can't zoom in well but I can get them.
I can see my house from here! So, @Spud_Monkey , are the first set of map pictures, with landowner names proprietary or is that something I can find?
Yes you can... www.gaiagps.com or https://www.onxmaps.com/hunt/app or https://ogrip.oit.ohio.gov/Services.../OhioSpatialDataInfrastructure-Downloads.aspx Just don't trust the first two to be 100% accurate on owners the as you can see from where I live at by the house icon that I own that one and am paying on the second one to the south as they were owned by the same company. Hopefully take the property to the north soon. Look to the left those are 600 plus acre BLM land tracts I can play on along with many others around the area.
Thank you kindly sir! I'm a huge map fan so I'll probably mess around with these a lot! Also, this is making me a little grumpy... I'd like to own more land.
It's a tiny picture but this is my latest gokart track!
Let me help you with that
Haha! Man, that's pretty recent! Is this from the paid for version? You can also, barely, see the bee hives! And clearly where I buried the dog!
Is this the pond ? Or did I miss it by a couple of miles ?
Yep it is and paid version and I can see where your screen name comes from now running background, check credit score and lets see what else I can find.. I'm kidding you or am I....
@Tinkerer - that is a different pond, one that has solved some water problems. The pond that is causing the problems is actually under the tree canopy directly across the street and north half a tick. You can't see it from any of the maps I've seen. It's pretty small. @Spud_Monkey Ha! Snoop all you want wierdo! My screen name is pretty easy to understand but it also has to do with a family friend, when I was a big fat baby, who called me egghead, because I had a big fat egg shaped head. At some point I realized my initials spelled it differently and I liked it.