attached is diagram of regulator showing the safety valve seat. Can anyone tell me how to remove that seat? Has anyone here worked on one of these?
Not having worked on one before first make sure you can actually buy that part then get it in your hands and look at it to see how its shaped and how it may possibly come out
I thought the same, but having 0 experience with that, I didn't want to send him on a bad road. That is how I go after just about everything different. Take it apart, put it together and see if you gain "bonus" parts. Lol.
I already have the seat, and there is nothing to hold it in except tight fit, I think. My situation is that what I see in the chamber looks just like the seat, looking from the top. That being a chamfered seat. It actually looks like it already has a seat, but it could be destroyed by trying to remove it. I would hate to mess up what can't be fixed, and I don't need to put in another one on top of the original.
If the sealing portion of the seat doesnt look bad dont touch it then .if it chewed up mess with it your worst case scenario is buy a pump , if you dont feel comfortable doing what your doing take your pump and the parts you got to a shop that works on pumps.
Any chance of knowing what make that pump is and maybe a model or part number off it? Could be with that information one could find a different break-down or instruction manual from the pump manufacture instead of a not too clear parts book picture. It does appear that item number 4 holds it in place, did you get that #4 out?
Why do you think you need to replace the seat?
That is a Clark shuttle shift transmission pressure regulator. Fluid comes into regulator , through the pump #21, through the filter assy., and back to the torque converter. As shown, New Holland/Ford 6500, pressure regulator. No markings on it. #4 is a spacer, in different versions of transmission, it can be inverted. It will just fall out with spring and safety valve. Problem is , losing prime overnight.
The usual reason in my experience is the pump has lost some of its efficiency and is allowing oil to drain back to the sump. Taking time to catch a prime is also and indication of a pump problem.
Okay ! That is useful information. Thank you and everyone that took time to look and answer. I guess I will be pulling and getting the pump tested.
I know it can be dangerous to try to comment about a machine that one does not have personal experience with but one thing I would be looking at is anything on suction side of the pump. A small leak anywhere could cause a pump to be slow to pick up its prime or loose it sitting over night. Not saying this is your problem but something to at least be thinking about while looking over the system.
I am familiar with this clark pump/ regulator set up, it was used extensively in the Timberjack skidders. I would think a leak in suction would prone to be your issue. IMO concentrate on the gaskets between the regulator and converter and between pump and regulator and filter housing seals, and the shaft seal. Also the orings on plugs under the roll pins. As mentioned worn pump. Other wise all other possible suction leak are internal piping and gasket between converter housing and trans case.
You are the man I need to ask for some answers. On the converter housing where the regulator mounts, the tube for suction looks in diagrams to extend from the housing about a 1/4 inch. On mine the tube is almost flush with the housing. It only gives a very small amount for the o-ring to seal. How to remove the seat for the safety valve. I will really appreciate any help you can give.
The suction pipe is rolled it the housing and does not need a orings seal around the pipe . The suction seal is the gasket. It had been many years since I have dealt with one of these. I don't know what to do about the seat, but i don't feel like it hah to do with the suction leak. I seem to recall the side with the seat you are trying to remove is the flow control for the torque converter. The other side is the pressure regulator.
Can you possibly remember one of those Timberjacks that had that setup? I might be able to find a parts diagram w/part numbers. I know some Clark forklifts use a pump that looks just like mine.
TJ 450b with clark 2800 trans TJ 450c with clark 3200 trans TJ 380 b and c TJ 460 32000 On the TJ the transmission filter is remote mounted.
This the diagram for a 460c Timberjack, it looks the same . What kind of material is the seat made of? A rig with an extended tap and pull hammer may do it. Maybe a picture of the new seat?
Unable to determine what seat is made of, but it appears to be metal. Round, about 1/2" wide, 1/4" thick, and countersunk to match the bottom of the safety valve, flat on the bottom. Button on safety valve seats in the countersink. The seat looks great, but I don't want to ruin it and not get it out. I think I will concentrate on suction leaks and or pump. I have removed whole assy. and will start closely checking everything. The only markings on pump looks like a casting # 233282R. put there when cast. Will keep you posted.
If you freeze it down with easy start or the like and knock the (inverted) pump about a bit would gravity and/or a good magnet do the job?
That sounds like a great idea! I already tried dropping the housing on a chunk of wood and it didn't work. But freezing it first could really work. I forgot to say in the description that the seat has a 1/4" hole right thru the middle of it. An ez out might work but I think it would ruin it.
Never tried it but how about spraying it with an upside down can of that "canned air" they sell at office supply stores. When held upside down the stuff comes out as a liquid and cools things very fast. Just be careful to not get any on your skin or it will cause frostbite!!!
c gasket in place , pump side , converter side , gasket in place, I think I have found the problem. With gasket in place, there is a large gap between the parts.
pump sawzall blade won't fill gap to converter housing gasket in place the circles are raised and gasket goes on top of them. I see no way for it to seal.
Was it like that with the gap before you took it apart? Are you sure you have the correct gaskets for it? Something sure looks strange, did this ever work?
Yes, it was like that when I got it, but I didn't have any reason to notice it under the floor panel. I pulled it about 5 or 6 years ago to try to stop the losing prime. Ordered all new parts and they matched what came off. Ran it for a couple more years and parked it. Last year, I started it up again and worked it for a month, then pushed it really hard one day. Started being hard to get it primed anytime it shut off. Putting it back together this week is when I noticed the gap. The gasket in new hollands diagram (#17) does not match what everyone sells for the part#L33539. That gasket looks like the valve body to converter housing diagram..That would make the gap even bigger, and it won't fit. It may be that whoever worked on it before, got a pump or regulator valve and got the wrong one. I am presently making new gaskets to fit. When the new seal gets here, I'll put it together.
I can only hope that someone jumps in here who knows something about this unit as from here I can not see how this thing could ever work.
Put it back together today with new gaskets that filled the gap. Put the pressure guage on and started the engine. Absolutely no pressure on guage. Removed guage and left plug out. Nothing, So. I will be looking for a pump. Thanks everyone.
From your parts diagram line item 15 , shaft seal. And from the picture of the pump, the shaft seal is in the wrong place. It goes into the regulator and the shaft slides through it, that is why it will not close the gap. I think I have one in salvage i can take a picture to show seal placement. I will look tomorrow.
Also check out line item 26 in the diagrams I posted, it shows the pump shaft in the regulator.
I would be concerned about progressive damage to the pump from the seal being in that position. Tightning it together and rotating it with the engine could have damaged the valve plates which are aluminum. The pump is simple and easily disassembled for inspection.
Well, I could not find a regulator in the pile. I did find an old pump. It shows that the that the shaft seal is not installed in the pump
Is that grey spacer is the same as item 17 and item 3 on diagrams? Looks different.
Line 17 in op diagram would be the same as line item 9 in the ones I posted. The gaskets may be different as the application is different.
That info about the seal helps by getting the seal fully seated. But still have a large gap with gasket on. It takes 2 1/2 thicknesses of seal to close the gap. I was filling the pump and ran out of oil. It pumps by hand, but that means nothing under pressure. Tomorrow, I will open pump for inspection. Is there anything to look at to help identify this pump? When I changed the Hydraulic pump, all the internal parts were stamped with the part #'s.
I wish I could have found a regulator to better explain. In your picture when you can see the new seal with the green on it, it does not go there. It is the reason you can't close the gap, the seal is to be installed into the regulator, with the lip towards the pump. The gasket is between the shaft seal and the pump. You can see in the pictures of the pump I provided the there is no protrusion and gasket lays flat. So you install the seal " backwards" into regulator, slide the gasket onto studs ,then the pump. You will notice how the pump shaft has a long stem and the shaft seal does not have to right against the pump plates.
The seal goes here.. So the "back" of seal would be facing up in the picture.
That is the way I have it installed now. But, before I put it in, I tried the gap with no seal or gasket. It was still open. The circles around the bearing and the shaft are raised above the regulator gasket surface about 2.25 mm, and the gasket is about .85 mm.
Ok we are on the same page now. The circles should not be higher than the gasket . There has to be an issue with the pump. As this gasket sits flat on the pump face .
Do know if there is a clark model code tag on that transmission? Usually the tag is on the lower part of the transmission near the output. That would help in running down a pump.
I believe you may be able to better see what I have with these.
here are some more
and the rest.
I don't understand why you have that protrusion but you should not.
I found out why it protrudes. The cylinder with the bearings was cocked in the housing and would not go back inside. After I cleaned it some, everything fit. the springs in the adapter pushes them back out. I'll have to mount pump before mounting the adapter, using the factory gaskets. Now, just have to get a part# for the right pump. Ford # is D5NN7C421A for update. Original # is D3NN7A103A Been unable to cross it
So there should be a small retaining ring to hold that valve plate from protruding that way.
You might get some information from Allied Systems Company. They have always been helpful to me. The number you provided that is on the pump is a clark number, but I can't get it come up either . There may be an updated part number or it could be proprietary. Allied will likely be able to tell you which.
There is a ring there and it was in place, but only contacting one barrel. I believe that if I can find a pair of barrels in decent shape, it may still work. That will be a last resort. Thanks for all the help. Much appreciated. There is a place in Simpsonville, SC with a fork lift graveyard.
Machinery Parts Warehouse 815 580 3274 And IHM Used Parts 888 535 2817 Both show to have 2 if those pumps in stock under D3NN6A103A. I have not dealt with either , just did a parts search on Machinery Trader.
Alright, I sure appreciate that. I will be in touch with them shortly. Going to pull a vacuum on the suction tube tomorrow. I have the pump all cleaned up and back together. Left the adapter assy snugged up but no pressure on the pump. Everything looks right now. If vacuum test is good, I will put it back on and tighten the bolts. Cross your fingers.
Partsandservice, I really appreciate your help with this project. Today, I got to do the vacuum test. Before I even got a reading, I was drawing oil at the entrance to the regulator. Reinstalled the assy and fired it off. Pump primed up quicker than it ever has since I've owned it. Didn't do it properly, oil wasn't warmed up, but I had 210 lbs pressure in all gear positions except 3rd forward. It was 205. Monday, I will try to move the machine and see what happens.
Glad to be of assistance.
Going to close this thread with results. Tractor still losing prime when shut down. Now each time it sits any at all. All gears work, but you can tell the pressure is weak. About as good as it ever was, so am going to finish project I was working on. Got to change out a busted hose and move forward. Thanks everyone!!