Hey everyone Ill try to keep this short, Ive been lurking here for about a year and I finally decided to start posting. Anyway, I started a company about 1.5 years ago, Im 23 yrs old. Ive been around the underground utility construction business since as long as Ive been alive. By the way go easy on me if Im doing something wrong in the pictures below lol, but Im very open to any criticism you guys have. Thats me and my dad. Okay this isnt going to be short lol...My dad sold his business back in 2000, he wanted to get into other things that were more enjoyable to him. He didnt grow up around machines like I did, so I feel like I really do enjoy it and I always find myself kicking the dirt around and digging with my feet. Things didnt go so well for my father financially after he sold the business so when I was unsure of what I wanted to do as I had lost interest in college after 3 years we both agreed on starting a new utility contracting business. My father wanted to just be a consultant to me and I make all the decisions and run the jobs. So far it has worked out really well, through an old contact of his Ive gotten some pretty big work for just being in the business for 2 years. Ill throw up some pictures at the bottom of the post, onto the questions.... Questions I was interested in moving into doing gas lines and water mains instead of the cable/fiber (4 inch pvc) Ive been doing, what would be different in burying pvc 4 feet deep and burying water mains? How is the pay? The cable work around here usually pays about 30$ per foot and I was averaging about 100-300 feet a day...usually in really bad conditions. Lots of rock, concrete etc. Right now I only have 2 trucks, both CDL trucks. Me and my younger brother both have CDLs, one is a utility truck with a 30amp inverter and an under deck air compressor capable of running 2 jackhammers. The other is a single axle mack dump truck, one of the mid liners, I dont like it that much but it gets the job done, it has air line hookups for a trailer as well. Should I bother buying a backhoe or just look into buying a wheel excavator? Why do people use the track excavators instead of the wheel excavators if youre working in the street? What are the bare essentials to start doing water main work, even if its just repairing breaks (theres a lot of breaks around here)... Where do you guys get most of your work from? I dont have a yellow page ad yet and Im going to do that, Im also trying to work my way into the local gas company before I try for water main work... I know I have more questions I guess Ill just post them as I think of them, heres some pictures of what I have going on... Here are my two trucks, we were going under traffic loops here The tri axle and backhoe I rented from the contact that I get all of my work from atm Here we ran into steel plates buried on top of shallow utilities....a week before I told someone the only way we could run into worse conditions is to hit solid steel under the road, and so thats exactly what happened.
Im not sure how to get it to show the picture, usually the IMG tags work?
Think I got it now...
Welcome to the forums, Aliate. We don't have the IMG tags enabled. We prefer to have the pics posted here, rather linked to a server someplace else, because that way we can be sure they'll always be available here. If somebody decides to move or remove their pics from where they're linked to, it just ruins the thread here. Here's more than you ever wanted to know about how to post pics here: On edit: I see you figured it out while I was posting this.
Alright thanks, Ill try to fix everything, Im uploading the pics to my attachments now I can only have a max of 5 pictures uploaded to my attachments?
More
Nice pics, good luck with the new company.
last ones
Aliate said: Where do you guys get most of your work from? I dont have a yellow page ad yet and Im going to do that... Welcome to the board - Looks like you are off to a good start. My suggestion is to get a basic web site up ASAP, you might want to get some professional help with it - so you can be found by the search engines (like Google), my feeling is that yellow pages are becoming obsolete in the internet age. I can't tell you the last time I opened a phone book. I would also suggest a nice lettering and graphics job on your trucks, as they say - 'it pays to be seen'. Good Luck, Ziggy
Thanks for the advice, Ive thought about a website and about the lettering whats on there now is just the customers name and info, just so I had something on the side of the truck until I get the money for a good logo, I have the idea in my head, its simple but it stands out. I have a really good image of what I want the company to look like in my head. Right now I still feel like Im logistically catching up to the work that Im doing if that makes any sense, like Im a little bit behind the game every job I go on.
Congratulation on you business. Just remember collections and working for people who pay is the most important thing for survival. If you get 100 per foot vs 30 and don't get paid it means nothing. Good luck you can get a ton of info here from others in your line of work. Looks like you rolling very good for new and young just don't bite off to much.:drinkup
Yeah I was renting the tri axle and backhoe, I just own the utility truck and dump truck, I got both for about 30,000$, the utility truck has a cat 3126 with 32,000 miles....best deal I ever got in my life lol...the compressor on the truck is 15,000 alone installed
Would you consider using a rubber tracked mini digger around a 12000lb-16000lb size? A rubber duck is equally useful tool doing utilities ask ATLAS ROB.
renting is OK as you hand it back and keep capital in the bank and no repairs. There are bargins out there on equipment now. If it sits in the yard it is no bargin to make payments. If you can put the rental cost in the job, it saves the work of keeping equipment maintained and storage. Where are you working NYC?
I would but I just dont feel like the have the same power unless Im wrong, the only reason I find myself using the front bucket atm is because I dont own a skid steer yet, Im trying to buy one next year though in june or so. I run into a lot of bad stuff under the asphalt around here. I was doing a job and there was 6 inches of asphalt on top of 24 inches of steel reinforced concrete, we had 2 jack hammers going 8 hrs a day for 2 weeks. I went through a lot of ear plugs. As for where I work, I work in the city sometimes, usually in the bronx or brooklyn, but those pics were in Jersey City and Morristown NJ.
Your killing me with those hammers, bro. Where is the saw? Its one thing if you are by the hour and you want to put on the big show, but if you are contract, you need a road saw. We need to get you into the second millenium. Also - you'll do a lot more with a properly sized duck - don't foget you'll spin around 180 and dump that asphalt, then the gravel right into the truck. Take it to the approved site and no big mess after. You need a football field to turn that tractor around in - uh-oh, now I gotta stop traffic again while I make a 15 point turn with the backhoe.....its a nightmare, dude. Get a duck.
The biggest saw I have is a Stihl TS420 hand saw, I still havnt been able to buy the right road saw yet, I need one that uses a 36in blade. Although on one job I was using a vermeer rockwheel which makes even the biggest walk behind saw look like a toy, I had a lot of fun running it. The motors screem and they just destroy the road its really cool. Thats not the exactly one I was using, but the same diameter wheel and stuff, Ill take pictures next time I have it. Its on wheels instead of tracks.
Weeell, I don't know if you need a 36 inch blade..... probably a 16 will do you. Remember, you don't need to cut all the way through if you have a machine with some breakout - 60% will do it. You might lift the last few coats a little, but they won't break the cut line. And those big toys are nice if you're cruisin' the net, but overkill is not practical when you need to service the "wrong" machine.
I rented a walk behind saw with a 16 inch blade and the thing was nothing but trouble, the only time I had an easy time pulling out thick asphalt was the two times that I used a saw with a 30 inch blade. I was using an case 580 with 6000 hours on it so I dont know if that was the problem. My next job Im going to rent a john deere 410 and see how that works out. I also try to keep a clean trench as far as the edges, I dont know maybe Im wrong there. Everytime I did a neat job, nobody seemed to care, they just want production...you ever run into that?
All the time. Except at the end, then they want everything left neat. If you're going to get into water main you'll definately need a hoe of some sort. Plus all sorts of other fun things like trench boxes, ladders, a loader w/ spoon for gravel, forks for pipe, sump pumps etc etc the list goes on. Water main tends to go in alot deeper then cable/fiber. You think you have fun working around stuff in a 3' trench? Try going through the same spot except another 17' deeper and tell me what you find down there!
VantageTES Aliate said the pics were taken in New Jersey. Water mains in NJ are usually 4 feet of cover over the top of the pipe.
Well with a duck or excavator or skid steer even the hoe will take a breaker and may have been quicker,cheaper and less stressful on the employees...
For sure if you are going to continue using a backhoe, you need to cut more. You can use a narrower bucket on one of those things, but then you leave the bottom of the cut edges ragged. You need something with a little power.
If you have a neat cut it will help to keep your quantities tight and also make repair easier.If you do not cut there is no knowing how big a scab will come up and have to be repaired and then you will still have to cut the edges.
will a small size excavator, like one of those m322's have a problem with asphalt that is only cut 60%? Will it rip up the edges of the road or still leave a neat cut? And how much power do they have compared to backhoes, I see the horsepower ratings arnt much higher at least with the small size excavators. (m322's and 319's)
Don't look at HP compare the break out force of the Buckets that where the exc win over the Bhoe
I really think you got a good company going remeber when you rent you wast your money (I think), Alot of ditchs were dug with a backhoe, and you have two machines in one. I have a 50D mini it will out dig my 310sg in easy going at 3' deep. Any deeper or hard ground and the 310 is way better. But the mini gets into tight corners. But you need a skiddsteer. I dont know a thing about wheeled excavators so personally i would noy by one. Around here water lines are 8-10' deep. WORD OF MOUTH is the best advertising you will get. Yes get a web site i dont have one yet bit hope to soon good luck
You are right i would rather dig with my 690 E have a bigger ditch then struggle with my 310sg. Break out force is every thing
Aliate, the following advice is by no means the only way to "do it", this is just how we do it, we are in the water/sewer business, first we cut the road with a standard concrete floor saw, we never hook up the water hose, but I think if we did it would be easier on the blades. Then we use a breaker mounted on a back hoe, or excavator to break it up. Then we scoop it up and put it in the dump truck. We work in the streets and for the most part we can manuever around pretty good. If you are wanting to buy some equipment I would recommend a backhoe, trailer and dump truck. On the backhoe you can get a hammer and a quick attachment on the rear. Or as mentioned before you can get a skid steer and a hammer attachment, however we tried that before and I don't know if it was the hammer or what but it did not work too good. Before you jump the gun and buy something-demo different pieces of equipment and see what you think works the best for you. Talk to the dealer salesmen and explain your background and what you are wanting it to do, they will be more open to allow you to demo the equipment. As far as wanting to branch out to water, I don't know,if that is what you want to do then go for it, however I would stick to what you are doing now if you are making money and have the work lined up. Also, look around and see if there is something else you would like to do. It is nice to specialize in something where there is not a lot of competition. That is what we do, we slipline and pipe burst sewer lines and now we have started doing the same for water. You can check out www.krgutility.com , that is our website, you might decide to try get into that area. But whatever you do, good luck and it sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders and a good family to support and work with you.
I never use any machine smaller than a 15 ton in the road - it just takes too much screwing around. I think a 322 is still a mini, right? I don't think I would mess around with that, either. I cut the road about 4-5 inches and even if they are 6-8 asphalt, the ex leaves the top cut perfect - and it goeas fast. I can cross a 40 foot road in about 10 minutes after its cut - and that includes turning around and horsing it up into the truck. Now you don't have screw around dragging all that crap to the job too - compressor, hose, hammers, bits, 2 extra knuckleheads, etc, etc. If I were you ALWAYS in the street, I would get a duck with a blade (if anyone makes one with a blade??) - because then you trap the asphalt against the blade and scoop it - you wont even believe how fast you'll go.
Thanks for the advice, branching out into water lines would probably be within 5 years or so, nothing immediate. Right now I have a good single axle dumptruck that Ive pulled a 24,000lb rocksaw with no problem. My father who has a lot of experience in this business prefers case backhoes and thinks a case 590 would be best for me, but Ive seen john deere 710's and I want to look into them. They are only 2 inches wider than a 590, but about 1/3 more breakout force. I know that as my first and second purchases, they are very important, so Im trying to do as much research as possible. I dont like that the 710's that arnt 2008-2009 dont have joysticks for the front bucket, and it seems like none of them have 4 in 1 buckets which is an absolute must for me. Im also looking into buying a skid steer mid next year and I think Im going to go with a Cat, not sure on the size yet. Id prefer something that can load a tri-axle. I really appreciate all the advice everyone, its very helpful. Its hard to find good solid advice from people who have experience.
good luck with the biz
thanks
My personal preference is for an excavator, especially if you work in tight spots. How much of an advantage is the loader on the backhoe going to be versus a mud bucket on an ex? If you want to get fancy you can put a rock/cement/asphalt saw onto an ex but they would be very expensive. A hydraulic hammer is a must have in your situation, consider a 100kg bloke leaning on a jackhammer versus a 5 tonne ex leaning on a hyd hammer. Duck versus tracks? The main advantage of the duck is that it can be driven from site to site but their disadvantage is they only tend to come in bigger sizes and are not as maneuverable as track machines, trying to straddle a trench with a duck is awkward. If you are going the track ex route you have to consider size, firstly it has to be able to load/unload into your truck. It has to have the digging depth and the power to do the job in the conditions you work in. They make a staggered teeth bucket for machines these days which increase the digging power in tough conditions. Basically it is a matter of sitting down and working out the pro and cons of each set up, have a look around at prices for machines, you may be able to pick up a good used ex with hammer and a selection of buckets for not much money but backhoes are pretty cheap if you don't mind an older machine. Ohh and you'll want this to stick on the ex http://www.digbits.co.uk/excavator_attachments.htm#boom_broom
The 322 is actually a 25t machine. Sometimes I am running into 15 inch thick asphalt on top of 10 inches of concrete, but on average Im hitting 12 inches of asphalt going across city streets. Ive had a lot of hard jobs this year thats why I want something with plenty of power. The best digging I had was literally through bricks. They demolished a building then paved on top of it, so I was digging through brick, tiles, pieces of steel pipe etc. It was almost comical. I thought about it a lot today and its hard to shy away from a good backhoe because I might start with the house services to ease my way into the main line work, and I think it would be easier using a backhoe on someones lawn than an excavator. I can also pick up a good case 590 for 50,000, I think I would be hard pressed to find a good wheel excavator for that price, unless Im wrong. And yeah you are right about that blade it would help a lot. Yeah I feel like I did a lot of that working out pros and cons today. It seems like just buying a good used backhoe and a skid steer would be my best route. Im aiming to buy the skidsteer mid next year, and if things go really well maybe I could pick up a backhoe too, but I things would have to go amazingly well lol. Once again I really appreciate the advice from everyone, its a huge help to me. By the way, do people use 12 inch buckets with excavators? If so that would be really nice.
As for digging crossing lawns a track will beat the snot out of a back hoe any day.Oversaw a job recently for a buddy where they had to dig across a lawn one very wet Saturday when they finished they relaid the turf and the damage was minimal,hand on heart a rubber tyred digger would have made a holy mess of the place. IMHO
really, I would have thought it was the other way around, I guess the stabilizers really can make a mess of things. If I were going to buy an excavator I would buy a wheeled one though as after a year and a half I have yet to dig in anything but the street.
i use a 12inch, 14inch, and a 24inch buckets on my mini excavator and 12 and 24 on my backhoe pretty slick when you are diggin around utilities :drinkup
can you put a 12 inch bucket on a full size excavator though? I normally use a 6 inch and 12 inch on my backhoe
It is not really the stabilizers that make the mess, it is all about ground pressure. The tracks will ride right across, the tires on the backhoe with the weight will cause it to sink if the soil conditions are wet.
yeah that makes sense
That was a pretty quick response, why are you not out working?:cool2 I got to come home early due to rain. It will be hard the next two days:Banghead
Things start to slow up this time of year for me being that I only have one customer, and when things starts to get slow, theres really no overflow for me to pick up being that Im a sub contractor. I went to look at a job in the city that Im going to be doing, Im just waiting on them to do some grading. Didnt see you were from NC, up here when it starts to get cold, work stops because the ground freezes, another month and it will be about that time.
You previously refered to this m322 as a "small machine" - now you are saying it is 25 tons and wondering if it is comparable to a backhoe? Are you kidding? I own a 30 ton excavator also and it would bury any rubber tire backhoe in MINUTES. Here is your post #25: "will a small size excavator, like one of those m322's have a problem with asphalt that is only cut 60%? Will it rip up the edges of the road or still leave a neat cut? And how much power do they have compared to backhoes, I see the horsepower ratings arnt much higher at least with the small size excavators. (m322's and 319's) " I guess I am trying to figure out what you are asking - people who actually do this work have told you to get a duck (unanimously, I believe), yet I think you are still leaning towards a backhoe. Is a 25 ton ex really "small" for you??
Well I considered it small compared to the 385's and stuff everyone posts about. The reason I am still considering a backhoe is because if I buy a ex, Im looking at spending 200,000$ where I can pick up a good case 590 with low hours for 50,000$. Financing has been hard to come by for me. Even the used wheeled ex's are 120,000$
Where are you getting these prices - you don't need to spend that much. Here - look at this: http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=6318237 Perfect size for you. This thing will rip asphalt out like nobody's business. Even has a blade!!!! I might even buy it.....
Personally I like a 8-10 ton mini excavator with rubber tracks for water work. They're fast, strong, and versatile. In NYC you'll probably be 4-5 down for water, so you really don't need anything bigger. As far as a rubber tire excavator like a 318 or 322, they're not that small, and you'll be more likely to break stuff underground compared to a medium sized mini. I could go on, but I'm slow at typing.
Is it okay to buy something like that with that many hours? Im used to backhoes, after 5000+ hours they are pretty much done. That really is nice though.
Equipment Specifications Year 2000 Manufacturer CATERPILLAR Model M312 Price US $39,000 Location Batavia, New York Serial Number 6TL00991 Condition Used Stock Number S28132R Hours 5,186 If the hours are accurate she is only about a third way through her working life,if she was minded,and serviced etc.What axles does she have ? I know some of the Cat axles gave trouble,but so do Hurth gkn etc. She still seems to have it original ballast weight paint might not be a bad buy ps it even got a Q-HITCH
What is the normal life? 15,000 hours? And whats a Q-hitch
The company I used to work for had 2-206's and 2-212's. (The 312 looks alot like a 212.) All four had Perkins engines. We had to replace one of the engines-I don't remember why or the hours. The company bought their excavators usually with less than 2000 hrs and sold them at 10,000 so they didn't run into to major repairs and the associated downtime and while they still had a good resale value. Other than the engine, the only other major repair was having the brakes done on one of the 212's The blade is nice because sometimes you may not be able to put the outriggers down and if you didn't have it, you'd bounce all over the place. Roading them is a kick at 25mph. Edit: One other thought. With the 312, you might run into problems with overhead lines and overpasses that you woulldn't with a mini.
When you say mini do you mean like a mini excavator? The little ones landscapers and stuff use?
I don't do utilities so I can't recommend a machine. I was trying to give you some insight on the rubber tire excavator and the longevity of similar machines.
He has a point about the wires - but the trade off for the additional power is worth it. You just have to pay attention.
I dont do water or gas main work but from what ive seen in my part of nj is backhoes but theyre not running into what you are. E- hoe, quick coupler and side dump bucket is the most common setup. Like other said the road saw will make things easier too. Check auctions. I think we picked up our propane 36" Target model for 2000$ with 650hrs. my opinion can only be based on what others in my area use so take that into consideration.
Where do you find auctions like that? Because that saw is exactly what I need. Id like a diesel one though.
There is no real 'normal life' when it comes to machinery, you can have identical machines and one will go to 20,000hrs and it's twin will be a wreck at 5000hrs. It's to do with maintenance, repair and how the operator treats the machine. That duck in the ad might look OK in the photos but a closer inspection may well reveal that it has had more operators that hours. Minimal maintenance and needs a pile of work done to it. There appears to be a hole cut in the side of it but looks like it is being sold by an offical CAT dealership but the dealer is a long way from where the machine is. A Q hitch is abbreviation for quick hitch, which in this case appears to be be a non standard one but that is not a big problem.
Generally under 5 tonne is considered mini.
One thing to consider is that if you have earthmoving machines you can do general earthmoving jobs on the side.
This is the lawn job I spoke of earlier after we were finished,remember it rained cat-an'-dogs that day.
I have to agree strongly with that. i have been out of the field for a while but a skid loader and a compact/mid size excavator make a mean pair. You will need to consider if your are going to get into bigger projects before you decide on what combo to get. Thing that is nice about the 2 machines instead of a TLB is that you can do 2 things at once. sizing is the big issue its better to buy a little bigger then something a little to small. You can usually transport both on a single trailer. Also the attachments are available to expand the duties if the machine and the compactness of the machines increases safety to a degree. I know my my location comes up as OK but i was born and raised in NJ exit 14a and 8a
Yeah I think about this a lot, Id much rather have machines that are specialized. Im going to buy the skid steer next year once things start back up again. The reason I wanted to buy a duck is because I dont have a tractor trailer to pull around a 330 or something, but I guess the answer to that is just looking for a 319 being that they are a lot cheaper than the ducks and pulling it around on a tag along. I know it has been gone over a lot in this thread but I dont have a lot of experience using different machines and dealing with different breakout forces, but will a excavator really run circles around a powerful backhoe say a case 590 in tough soil conditions? Im sure the answer is yes but I just want to hear it from you guys. Thanks for everyone's patience with me I know Im asking questions that have simple answers but I just like to talk about things a lot sometimes when I have nothing else to do, like work has slowed down for the year and Im not buying any equipment until spring/summer.
i watch auctionlistservices.com and auctionzip.com
Hmm MY good man a tlb has a breakout force similar to a 14-16,000lb excavator.A 26-30k excavator will out dig a tlb by 2.5:1 and a DUCK WOULD BE SIMILAR. Have a look here under digging force at bucket breakout force
Just a thought if your going to be in roads a lot why not a cat 314 lcr zero tail swing with rubber pads? Plus you could even work in a single lane of traffic if you had to. Thats what I would use or a tlb with side dump bucket.
I run a 580M turbo. We do gas main work all day everyday. I prefer a Super M much more than a M turbo but she does every thing we put it through. Most all gas crews around here use backhoes. 580 Cases being a big majority. We have a bobcat with a sweeper attachment also. Backhoe is my favorite machine but many times I sit thinkin to myself how nice it would be to have a nice little hitachi 80 or 100. Be able to spin around, hit the travel pedals and just walk forward. Honestly gas work, a backhoe is the only way to go unless your gonna be doing alot of residential services.
I cant believe how cheap stuff is going on there for...is there some sort of catch? Do you regularly get crazy deals on stuff on that first website?