I'm sure this will start a lively discussion, but I wanted to get some input on a project for next year. I'm going to build a SMALL AND LEAN shop to house my service truck, some supplies, and all my other tooling that I don't carry on the truck daily. Also need some space to have a personal car project in there as well. The other reason for the shop is so I can for work on customer's components out of the weather. I don't do a whole lot of welding, so space for that was limited. I want to keep the welding area away from the waste oil and working area so I'm not throwing metal grindings and slag onto a customer's component. I will not be bringing machines into the shop, only an occasional component like an engine, axle, or pump, etc.. I'm building on a tight budget, out-of-pocket, so I'm not burdened with monthly payments. Take a look at my layout, and see if there's anything that could be done smarter based off of your experience. Kind of like the kitchen triangle you know? I already have the gravel pad done, and just waiting for spring(and more money). The dimensions are 32x40x14. 12x12 door on the short, gable side. I'm considering putting the man door on the left(boiler) side, and likely building a lean-to about 12' wide for storage. Anyways, your thoughts?
Service doors: check your local building code, these usually need to be a minimum 36" wide. What style framing will you be using? Pole frame? Monolithic slab and stick walls? It's really easy and cost effective to do an addition on a pole frame building. If I didn't have the funds to build bigger initially, I would leave myself some options for the future. IE: don't set the back of your barn against your property setback unless you need too. Also, with the height of your barn, lean too additions are also a great option and very cost effective as well. Just make sure there is space left to the sides to allow for future construction. Are you doing over head IR heat with the waste oil? What zone are you in? If you are heating the shop due to harsher winters, don't skimp on the insulation. For reference, I've got R38 in my garage ceiling, R19 in the walls, insulated garage door and R10 under the concrete floor. Well worth it. It's currently 25 outside and a very comfortable 55-60 inside with minimal heat loss. I'm also using radiant heat in my slab though. Makes crawling around under vehicles/trailers very nice in the winter.
A couple of thoughts. If possible, put your air compressor outside is a separate insulated shed. The noise gets annoying after a while. Put your waste oil tank/filter bin as close to the door as you can. It'll be more convenient if you ever need to get a tanker to empty it and they smell pretty bad in a warm workshop. Depending on the capacity of your press, it should also be close to the door as you may need to load heavy items onto it with your crane/forklift. And if you don't need two access doors, just have one. Wall area is a valuable commodity in a small shop..
The lay-out looks decent enough.. I like it.. You said no vehicles IN the shop. SO, be sure to run air line connections, SEVERAL, outside. What size is your compressor? what size line are you gonna run.. Don't forget, the compressor is NOISY !!! & aggravating .. I'm gonna put mine outside w/ a small lean-to over it.. & maybe some lattice around it for "looks". I'm gonna run 3/4 line around the shop & reduce it for air lines & such.. BUT run the 3/4 TO the sandblaster..
One thing you might kick yourself for is the door. I would go 14' wide if you can.
1 thing I'm kickin myself for, is the walk in door placement.. I put it in front on the left side of the roll-up.. I CANT SEE IT from my kitchen window w/o straining my neck. IF it was on the RIGHT SIDE I could just look straight out to see the door.. just something to think about.
I would agree with others on putting the compressor outside and seeing you are in Alaska insulate that building. One thing I was told years ago is when running air to a shop is to make the piping a loop. that way if two people are using air at the same time the first one on the line will not be stealing all the air from the second person. Also at several places around the shop put a drop down pipe with a drain valve to drain moisture out of the system. Compressing air is like squeezing a sponge if there is any water in the air it will come out!
I'd consider a larger rollup door. Perhaps even wide enough to the point all you have between it and the walk through is a column. 12' doesn't leave much extra room for mirrors to squeeze through and if your truck is in there you may have hell trying to squeeze something out past it. If you make a small room outside for compressor might as well create storage for oil, perhaps the waste oil tank etc. Keeps the noise, mess and clutter out of the work area. Also, 14' isn't very tall if you start adding a lean to off the side. Not sure how much height you'll get. All depends on how wide you go with it. If you run air lines do so with steel pipe or the newer fancy plastic airline like a truck. Don't use PVC. Like was said above, drip legs are a must. I generally build them in at each point I have a connector. I could go on and on.
36" door it is then. I'm doing a pole frame with lotsa insulation, and heated slab.
I don' want an extra access door but I think a fire exit door opposite of the main one is not a bad idea. I just might have to make a spot for the compressor outside in an insulated cover.
I appreciate the inputs. I'll definitely look into putting compressor outside and making a loop, good idea. I'm going to keep the bulk of my waste oil outside and only about a month's worth or so inside. I don' have the compressor yet but do plan on running 3/4 lines.
I would make your truck door a 14x14, bumping your walls up to 15’ today you won't bring anything large in, next week, you will need to bring a gravel truck or a log truck in. I built my door too small (12x12) it was fine for about a year. I got sucked into driving a log truck for a while and greasing it outside in a Washington winter is not pleasant. With a 14x14 door I could have at least greased it on relatively dry concrete. Electrically; run conduit on the surface of whatever you sheet the inside with. DO NOT run romex in the studs, you will regret it as soon as you finish sheeting the inside and want to change something. Put a double duplex every 6’ around the perimeter of the shop. Dragging cords is just another trip hazard. I would have three rows equally spaced of 250W equivalent LED lowbay lights 5 to a row. In your welding area, I would locate some windows up about 8’ off finished floor, natural light welding is nice. I have only one window in my shop, (bad plan) and when I weld, I tend to open one of my roll up doors for better lighting. Letting all the warms escape…. I am 65, the older you get, the more light you need, so plan ahead. Don’t forget the 10 and 12 foot step ladder storage, you will need one or the other to access high shelves. Even if you don’t use anybody’s suggestions, you still have a nice shop you can look forward to using
Yes, 14' x 14' door and 16' walls. You could put in a mezzanine along a wall to store stuff that wouldn't take up floor space and have enough height to walk under and on. I put up a 40' x 60' x 16' pole shed with 14' x 14' door because it was the best bang for the buck. I priced a 30' x 50' x 14' with 12' x 12' door and it was only about $6000 cheaper but 900 sq. ft. smaller. A 14' x 14' door will allow any road legal vehicle to fit through. I kind of wish I would have went even wider for getting equipment in and out. If I ever sell the property, someone will be able to park a motorhome or other large vehicle in it and could be a selling point.
I like he idea of a window by the welding area.
Looks good and a lot of great ideas learnt the hard way from other peoples mistakes. I only rent a yard a present, but would love to buy a bit of land and put up what I want. Do you have to get permissions or can you do what you like? Rear fire exit looks like a very sensible idea. It is something we don't have and it restricts where you do hot work. As people have said, more natural light is great, but it depends on security and I find I end up doing a lot in the evenings after being out all day, so good artificial lighting is even more important. Graham
Another angle would be to build it with the lean to additions from the start, thus avoiding the cost of doing the eave walls twice. Since you only need high ceilings in part of the shop, the heating bill will be lower and since trusses will only be needed in the middle section and the wings would have rafters, the cost per square foot goes down some more. Disadvantages of this design is it requires vertical support members on the inside and you need to heat the whole thing including wings. The bigger the better! In general, the cost per square foot always goes down as the square footage goes up.
One small thing I see is never label or refer to the used oil as waste oil. Waste oil is a hazardous substance, used oil is just that, used oil, to be used for heat or whatever you have in mind.
Very true
If you go to a 14 foot high door be sure to go to a 16 foot sidewall it takes 18" or more to open a door that size depending on the track size. There are short radius tracks that will open in less head room but they're not as good and I don't think you can put a jack shaft opener on them Also I was being cheap when I built my on shop and used a 10' on one side and a 12' on the other if I could or go back in time they would both be 14
Good point! We were told to do this years ago where I worked. If you label something "Waste" you might as well label it "Nuclear Waste" as some inspector will act like that is what it is equal to and start writing you up. And if you have some contaminated oil, like with coolant or anything else you don't want to screw up you heater with, we always labeled those barrels "Non-burnable Used Oil".
You can buy "Waste Oil" furnaces, labeled as such on line. One shop I know of, the fuel tank that came with the furnace is labeled "Waste Oil Only" Now I live in Washington, where despite what many may think, there is a lot of latitude in life and rules compared to the East and Mid-West so things may be different elsewhere. I burn natural gas since I do not generate enough waste oil.
Lots of good advice for sure. Never would have thought of the waste vs. used oil thing, but I'm not surprised the govt would see it that way. I'm pretty free to do what I want, no building permits required. Although, there are power line easements on two sides. The back corner opposite the main door. I'm hearing a lot of 14x14 on the door size so I might have to look at that. I appreciate all the feedback.
I put together a shop air system years ago and took some pictures Pitch everything to drain, preferably in the direction of air flow. Imagine every pipe has a trickle of water on the bottom and how are you going to keep that from getting into your tools. I copied this layout from a tire shop. The picture of the ceiling you see is where there is an up turn to go to a utilization point. The pipe that continues straight on eventually turns downward and goes to a drain only, there is another up-and-down utilization port at that point to keep any water out of the drops.
Great insight. I've never had a nice air system before, always been cobbled together or just a hose directly off a compressor. I grew up using hand tools, and then jumped right to DeWalt electric impacts when they came out. I thought they were a gift from God when I first used one. Later on I learned about quality air tools and how efficient they make you when repairing equipment. Someday, someday I'll make than investment. For now, I'll file this information away for whenever I get around to building my own barn.
DAM, I'll bet that piping system was expensive!!?? BUT at a "tire shop" you'd be runnin some serious air pressure.. ALL THE TIME.. & I especially like the "T" in the ceiling.. where it comes UP & over, instead of DOWN, off the T.. VERY WELL thought out !!!
Birken V. That installation is one of the best I've seen... Even if there is not a lot of use, water is always present in an air system. So, from a design perspective plan for the water. Flex from the compressor is a nice touch.
It really wasn't that hard or expensive to build. Main trunk is 1.25" pipe. Branches are 3/4". I did it all with a chop saw and a hand threader. One arm bigger than the other when I got done but there is enough layout time in between threading it gave my arm time to recover. This was 15 years ago, I was younger then. On hindsight I would not have placed the underground section of pipe, there is a u-pipe with a blowout section I built into it but it takes remembering to blow it out and it is in an out of the way place. Rather I would have placed the compressor closer and pitched to the compressor tank until it got to the high point, placed the regulator there and pitched the rest down toward the drop drains. Also I used a TEFC motor compressor outdoors about 40' from the shop out in the open air, but this is California after all. The compressor would probably get too cold where you guys are. Also used an auto drain valve, the tank is where 90% of the water can be gotten rid of.
Instead of a lean, when we built our shed, we used a 40ft high cube shipping container as part of the wall. With a weatherproof seal and double doorway opening into the shop, it provides an instant second room. I have pallet racking the full length and use it to store oil and flammables, along with unsightly stuff like old parts that should really be thrown out but might just get someone out of trouble one day. You can also easily weld heavy racks, shelves or a work bench to it.
If you end up with a door opening that's too small, you'll find yourself having to back up and get a running start to get larger vehicles in there.
I have never noticed your location before " checks in the mail " good one
I've got 12 foot openings in my machine shed. Mostly it works, but the edges do take a beating. I should have gone 14 foot.
make sure you put insulation under your concreat if your going to heat it. 2 " ridged foam works good. you don't want to heat the ground.
Backup until you smell **** and hear glass break! Haha. Even my 16x16 doors have a couple spots where I've been trying to finagle something in with the sky track and bumped the frame. Here's more food for thought if the OP wins the lottery or something.... My shop is 50x90, 20' side walls, 4 16x16 doors-two on each end. The nice thing about it is if you put your service truck in there just right you can use the crane from stowed position and back. It's come in handy a time or two.
I traded out some labor and got used 2" blueboard pretty cheap from one of my roofing customers for under the slab.
And carry your heating pipes as close to the surface as feasible. Only want 2" of coverage at the most. All the engineering tests over the years have shown it to be most efficient to the top.
Check, Good point on the lean to additions. I really don't want to heat a 16' high shop over the entire footprint where it's not needed. So I started looking at raised center aisle style buildings and am leaning that way. I can only go 36' wide though, so I'm thinking a 16' high center aisle with a 14x14 door, with an 8' wide x 10' high lean to on the right side for utilities, compressor room, bathroom, and 8x12 welding area. The work zone/equipment layout will be similar to what I already drew up. The left wing will be 12' wide x 10' high for personal projects. All aisles will still be 40' deep, and when I get the money I'll put an 8' mezzanine at the far end of the center aisle. The boiler will have to go at the back of the 12' wide wing due to chimney clearances. I sketched it up today on paper after losing my patience with the computer, but I made a quick revision. The black spots in the field represent poles placed at 8' OC. The additional cost of the extra space is largely negated by the savings of using 16' trusses instead of 32'. I'll just hand frame the lean to roofs, much cheaper. This is why I looked for advice on here. I get different perspectives from smart guys that make sense.
I would be very surprised if it was any cheaper to build it that way than using a full with roof truss. I personally would never and I mean NEVER build a shop or cold storage building that narrow with poles in the middle. The pole will always be in the way. Plus now you have limited ceiling height in half of your shop. I also don't think it will make a difference in heating. The heat will end up in the peak of the center section anyway. we just run a couple slow speed ceiling fans to help circulate the air around. one of our shops is 80x80x18.
I would make the lean-to roof on the same plane as the main roof so snow can slide off without crashing down on the roof below. An advantage of this design is that's it's compatible with steep pitch roofs. The eave walls can be as little as 8' tall.
The reason for doing it that way is that you can use smaller trusses in the center section and rafters on the wings. If you have any roof pitch to shed snow, getting trusses that large hauled is a challenge. Using rafters on the wings saves a lot of money. A shop with support poles in the middle requires a lot less materials to buy, as less overhead strength is needed. If this were going to be a regular steel framed building, it would make more sense to build it free-span. But with wood, this is the most bang for your buck.
I think where you save money with the lean to's is a typical 40 or so wide pole barn with an additional 12-20 lean to on the side vs a 50-80' wide clearspan truss, those big trusses get $$$. A 16 wide truss with 8 on each side is too much futzing around to be worth the money you save vs 32' clearspan trusses, that's just for the enclosed space, not even considering the flexibility of an open building. You'll save very little in heat between the two designs, the outside envelope area is the difference (assuming same insulation) and that's only the difference in end walls, your height and width remain the same. The added complexity for the side wall above the roof, the wall to roof transition, and insulation and air sealing challenges are not worth it. If we're talking about a shop with a heated slab, finished interior etc, the difference to get 36' trusses is peanuts. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.
I fully understand the reason for doing it that way, but its 36' wide. not 50' or 60'. I would like to see it priced out both ways. Plus labor will be more on the pole in middle style. I just don't see the point of doing it that way.
A lot depends on the pitch and snow load. A free span building that can carry five feet of snow might be expensive. You may be right on the labor.
Later tonight I'll sit down and crunch numbers for a 36' free span building and see the difference. The labor will be more for a three section, but 36' trusses alone are over $6K. The point of having three sections is so I don' heat a bunch of unused space above a work area. I only need tall ceilings in the center section.
If you get a lot of snow, consider 8 in 12 or 10 in 12 pitch. You probably don't need 15 foot ceilings above your drill press and storage cabinets, so low eaves aren't that much of a disadvantage. Wood framed shops are great for do-it-yourselfers and they're much easier to insulate than a steel frame. With that much pitch, you could probably use inexpensive 2x4 trusses on 24" centers and 2x12 rafters for the wings.
EDIT: Not sure if you are going metal or shingle roof. My comments below are thinking metal roof. I would shop another vendor for the trusses. Trusses can be a either 8' or 10' spacing with roof purlings every two feet to carry the metal. No idea what your snow load is but even at a 64 lb snow load, trusses can be found on line for about $200 ea. Even at two ft spacing that would be $4,200 and make it very easy to insulate. Just checked, Anchorage code is 40 lbs. sq. ft. snow load. Don't know what yours is where you live. You also might not have a many truss manufactures as we do to bring price down. A 36 foot truss is a short truss in todays world and no trouble to haul. Most new garages are 36' wide today making that a very common truss. You will probably spend as much on exterior trim, rafter material, hangers, and all the stuff that goes with it building the lean to's than you will on trusses. Then you still need to strip the roof over the rafters if you are putting metal on. Plus all the extra labor. Using a 1 to 3 pitch is going to be about 6 foot higher in the center than at the edge including material thickness. A 6 in12 pitch is still only 8'-6" high in the center. If you want to bring down the outside side walls look at scissor trusses to gain some center headroom while keeping the walls down. I also think you are going to hate the interior posts in no time flat. The same amount of posts are used either way. Its a lot less wall purlings used than it will take to frame the exterior lean to walls. I agree with Delmer that with decent insulation and slab heat you do not need lowered ceilings for efficient heating. Sorry for the ramble but might give you some other ideas to contemplate.
Rule of thumb is that 40' is the most economical width for wood. 60-70 generally for steel. I'm no expert, but that's the ball park numbers I use for pole barn type stuff. This is what my pole barn looks like. 40x80 part with concrete, and 20' lumber for the roof the lean to's. Down here though snow load is zero, and heating isn't too big of an issue. It actually snowed yesterday, but it burned off with a couple hours of day light, the week before we were in the mid-high 70's. HeavyEquipmentForums
That's kinda what I was thinking, the pole barn system works best around that width. Now if you're sure a 12x12' door on a 16-24' wide bay is all you need, don't let me tell you otherwise. Build what you need, not what some guy on the internet says you need. I've built frames of 2x4 and 2x6 lumber to tilt up like an old barn frame only on 2-3' centers. That would work well for a smaller finished building being built on a slab.
True. But to me, 14x14 doors sound way too small. I love my 16x25, especially now that I have a door in it and it's not just an opening. Being able to have multiple things come in and out of the shop at once is great. Doors can't be large enough. Something I'd also do, you have stuff like water heater, boiler waste oil storage etc, inside the shop. I wouldn't do it that, Id have a lean to sort of area on the outside of the main 40x36 or whatever. For me, having open space is the most important thing, so stuff that's not mission critical I wouldn't put on the main shop pad area. But with the layout you posted on page 2 your already sort of doing that.
OIH and Delmer, good points indeed, thank you. Metal roof is what I planned on. I priced out the 36x40 with the split design, and also with clear span trusses. For truss companies we only have two choices up here, and I'll only deal with one. The 36x40 split design with only 16' trusses is cheaper because trusses are so expensive. But on the other hand, there's a lot more labor and spendy hardware involved with a spilt design. On top of that, my business is a one-man band so I don't have lots of time in the summer to be dinking around with custom framing details. The idea of poles in the way all the time don't sound to tempting either. So I took several suggestions from here and decided to go with a smaller footprint(32x40), raise the ceiling to 16' all the way around, incorporate a 14x14 door, and install a mezzanine for storage. I'll put a 6' overhang off the one side to store more stuff outside but under cover. I redid my sketch to show the changes. I might put the compressor outside in a insulated doghouse under the overhang, but for now I might enclose it in it's own room with the water pressure tank/utilities. A 36x40 shop with clear span trusses crosses the financial line for me when I think 32x40 will do. I was just in customer's shop(32x40) with my truck fixing a grader and the space felt right. I appreciate the inputs from everybody. Take a look and let me know what you think.
The air compressor could be located outside the main shop with a little insulation I suppose, but the temps here kind of prohibit from putting the other things outside.
Somehow I screwed up that reply meant for Delmer.
Any thoughts on putting the compressor and some other stuff that won't be used much on the mezzanine? It might be a me problem, but i have a storage space like that and I have no idea whats up there. With 16' eaves some pallet racking by the door would net a lot of storage space.
If I could somehow effectively insulate the compressor noise and vibration, I would rather do that than put it outside.
Didn't even look at your location, yeah I can get why youd want everything inside in your area. The most recent layout your posted looks pretty decent to me.
IF I can hijack for 1 question please.. sandblaster.. put closest to air compressor, {other side of the wall} OR it wont matter as long as I run 3/4" pipe to it??
http://www.parker.com/Literature/Literature Files/pneumatic/serv/TEC-15.pdf That's what google comes up with for pipe sizing for flow and pressure reduction. What pressure and flow does the sand blaster need? I'm at school without any engineering books, so can't double check their figures. That chart is based on a 10% pressure loss for pipe below 3/4" and 5% loss above 3/4", per 100' of run.
THANK YOU.. that's VERY helpful & just what I needed.. you da' man..
The bottom line is the farther the distance, the larger size pipe you have to use to get the same air flow. So it is a trade off of convenience vs. material cost.
Air compressors can get hot as hell in enclosed places. They are air-cooled.
One thing that I haven't seen here; I know you do not worry about permits, but.... Last week a fellow blew his shop up and did a pretty good job on himself, he was working on a car in his shop with a wood stove. and obviously; gas vapors got to the warm toasty stove with open flame and bang. Gasoline fumes rise up to 18" according to the NEC, so think about what type of work you do and where your heat will be located. My furnace and ducting hangs as high as possible.
Good safety advice Jumbo, thanks!
Northern Tool has a waste oil heater on sale CHEAP..
Hey! pumpguy, as you have some free time why not run up and give Numbfingers a hand?
Yeah, it' actually nice right now, 15-20 degrees above.
For you guys up there that must be short and tee shirt weather! And at those temps probably not too many `sceters!
Ya know.. if it wasn't Christmas time & I didn't have my own shop build going on,, I might consider it..?? Halibut fishing is on my bucket list anyway.. Its gonna be 70* here today w/ no wind.. short sleeves & shorts, for me..!!!!