1993? John Deere 410C. I've always loved the control of a John Deere hoe. Wasn't seriously considering a purchase until today an opportunity came to me. I trucked this machine two years ago when it was bought by a friend. He wanted out today. I thought faster than my brain should, made a low ball offer, he accepted. I'll get pictures tomorrow. Everything works, but I don't believe it has seen a grease gun this century. I love my Case 580K but love a little less the jumpy backhoe.
C were a pretty solid series not much to go wrong and if your a case guy then you wont care it's a straight boom
Yup, lots of hours in a C-series, good machines. Ed
I'd rather have a banana boom. I've had an older 410, and two Case 580K. I always loved the control of the JD Hydraulic plumbing makes it easier to operate smoothly. The choice of this particular tractor was based on price, and opportunity. Big backhoes are less common & they tend to be high hour machines. I'd sure prefer a newer one, and the male extendable dipper makes adding a thumb near impossible.
Willie B, Good luck with your excellent score! As far as the thumb, I have researched one for my NH675E, and came up with this style: http://equipmentland.com/categories/Thumbs-&-Grapples/Hoeclamp/ They are a bit spendy at ~$3k, but amulet has a decent reputation, and they look well made. No hydraulics to worry about either. I have not pulled the trigger as my piggy bank is still broke from buying my machine and fixing it up.
They look fragile, though I may be wrong in practice. The price tag is a bit much too. I've not yet put the finishing touches on the thumb for the Case 580K. I have used it quite a bit. It is very robust. My needs are to grip rocks too big for the inside of the bucket mostly. Pretty heavy duty use. I built my house on two separate 1 acre lots. I believe 1/3 of one lot was cleared of rock by moving it to the other. The other lot only had a home from 1907 to 1927. Its owner was considered quite eccentric. He hung a block & tackle high in a huge tree & one at a time pulled thousands of boulders into a pile. I assume he wanted a bit of lawn. I've removed most of his pile. I hope to remove the rest of it.
How do you steer a John Deere? I think I mentioned I live in VT. Don't see the bumper stickers any more "Vermont Ain't Flat!" I think it offended the foreigners. About half the time backhoes front wheels aren't on the ground. You steer with brakes. In my Cases clutch is right thumb on shift lever & loader lever. Right foot is throttle. Damned if I understand, left foot for clutch, right is go + steer. This is NOT cool!
Willie B, If you come up with something that will work with an inner boom extenda-hoe, please share. We have LOTS of rocks here in the north east of PA too. I have many, many to move. Thanks.
Pictures, Willie, we need pictures ! Are the all front counterweights on it ? If they are would adding more of them help the steering problem ? Maybe ballast in the front tires ?
I'm not sure if a bigger counter weight is possible. Tire ballasting might help a little. Case's over center hoe parking is less tail heavy.
You could always fill the loader bucket full of rocks or dirt for more frontal weight. Man you guys all have such nice looking machines. I'm embarrassed to post pics of my old rag-a-muffin NH. It did begin life as a Texas municipal machine and has spend it's whole life out in the elements.
I keep my front tires filled with water, it cuts down on her tendency to climb the trailer on her hind legs. Maybe one day I'll post pics of my two b'hoes, they have spent their working lives in fertilizer in wiinter, spring and fall, and saltwater in summer. You'll feel a lot better about the looks of yours.
In the freeze zones calcium chloride or beet juice is used for tire ballast. I don't know about beet juice but cc requires a tube in the tire. I saw way too many rims (rear farm tractor tires) get ruined when the cc leaked into wheel. My brother had a John Deere that the bead area of the rim nearly fell off before he replaced it. I read that beet juice is 25% heavier than water and won't freeze until -35°.
Beer juice works, but makes a nasty mess if the tire has to come off for repairs or just to change it
Seems like a waste of beer, Colson
I understand some use windshield washer fluid too. I have the calcium in my small TLB. It does make rust by the valve stem. The dealer installed it when I purchased the tractor new. I would not consider wasting my beer in a tire
Lol, I meant beet juice, not beer. I should proof read better before I post.
I Like Beer Juice, call it Barley Soda Here!! Have 60 gal of Ethanol(WS Wash Solution) and water in each of my farm tractor rears. may need to do fluid fill to fronts on it as it is Nose Light.
New problem: This tractor has had too many years with not enough TLC. The backhoe vertical functions settle sometimes, don't when cold. I thought foam in the oil. Suction screen plugged Suction hose crushed Leaks in suction line Maybe plugged filter, (not likely) Seth used it this morning. Raging about what a POS it is. "The boom won't lift the tractor!" This was a very different experience than I had last night. We discovered a clean suction screen, a collapsed suction hose from reservoir to pump. I ran to Rutland for new suction hose. When I returned, I found an empty tool box. Seth had tried everything possible to get the return filter housing off. It is cast aluminum surrounded by transaxle & transfer case. Only a 1-9/16 specially shaped wrench will address this filter. He had ground a 1-1/2" open end to fit. No bueno! Might get a very short box wrench to fit, but no space for leverage. We broke several strap wrenches, then improvised. Long time, vice grips & copper wire make a good strap wrench. No go! 1-1/4" ratchet strap as the wrap broke without starting the thread. 2" ratchet strap, sliced a fat groove in a 1-1/2" socket Made a loop in 2" strap, passed a loop through & inserted a 1/4" rod. Two big men, 3/4" breaker bar, 2' cheater pipe, we made noise, but didn't budge the thread. 1-9/16 (or whatever the metric equivalent is will be here Sunday. I can predict it won't move this thing. What do we do next? Machine is at 3400 hours. I'd bet the filter hasn't been changed yet.
That looks like a nice clean machine you have there Willie. I hope you get your filter off, I am sharing in your frustration, I'm pretty sure we've all been down that road at one point or another where you can't get a filter off no matter what you try…
If my feeble mind serves me well.....only the one front counterweight and front tires should've been loaded at the factory. Ed
We got the filter housing off. Several hoses, a couple bolts & a spider web of stuff in the way. The whole filter assembly came out. Bolted it to channel, & welded channel to loader bucket. 3/4" breaker bar, 3' cheater, & Sean (6'5", 290 LBS mostly muscle) the filter canister unthreaded. Found some bits of metal in the filter. A few steel rings maybe 3/8" diameter, #14 wire, one bent. And there was a 3/16 long piece of porous brass, maybe 1/4" ID, 5/16" OD
That has to have been the worse filter ordeal I have ever read about or was involved with. Willie ! Scary assortment of stuff in it to.
Filter canister got cracked in all the improvised strap wrenches. Went on line. A new one is $800. It was oil soaked porous cast aluminum. Thankfully, not in a critical spot where heat would affect the seal at the thread. Weld would look good, then bubble as it cooled. It kept expanding trying to get a seal. It ain't pretty.
That will ooze like a bad sore. If have a p/n check some yards or Machinery Trader part look up for a used one while keep using this one until shows up.
JBweld on the inside and forget about it. And stick a couple hard drive magnets to the filter cartridge before you put it back together.
Wicking thread locker seals porosity: LOCTITE 290 - Threadlocker medium/high strength - Henkel Adhesives https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/us/en/product/threadlockers/loctite_290.html
Never liked putting anything Inside a Hydraulic system that was not intended to be inside.
I take you tig welded that housing. Grind it off an do it again if you want to get the oil out of the pores in the aluminium. I have repaired stuff like that and sometimes had to redo it three or four times.
Only ran it 30 minutes. So far no sign of seepage. We even put it together with the old O ring! The new one arrives Tuesday (maybe). Filtered the old oil, put it back. Bought HyTran to replace it. We'll do that when we have the new O ring. I would not have believed it, no leaks yet! So far, replacing crushed suction tube, new filter, hydraulics seem to work properly.
Would just keep a close eye for snail trails or odd controls reactions when using Sounds as got a win
I'll keep a close eye. The filter came without an O ring. Nortrax (the only John Deere dealer has to approve me as a customer, no word when, before I can order parts. Ordered the O ring from a less exclusive aftermarket supplier. Should see it Tuesday.
Update: It is a 12 gallon hydraulic system. My son now reports he refilled with NAPA oil rated to meet the standard specified. He replaced only 8 gallons, some remains in the cylinders. Checking the suction screen; clean. Replacing the filter; a couple bits of metal described above. A bit of gunk, not bad. Found a crushed suction hose between transaxle & pump. I reasoned it interfered with oil getting to the pump. Tried it for the first time extended use last night. Same as before surgery! It digs well for 1/2 hour, then loses hydraulic power. Can't lift a bucket full of rocky dirt. Boom settles quickly to the ground when parked. What do I do next? I hate to start throwing parts at it. A pump might explain the weak hydraulics, but it won't explain the settling. It behaves like my 1974 410 did, that proved to be two defective sections in the backhoe valve leaking past to the reservoir.
Heating up, expanding clearances within the pump, possibly in the valve body but the settling most likely bypassing oil at cylinder seals.
Sounds like two separate problems. I would reseal the boom cylinder for a start. Then you know if that is the problem or the control valve. Any noise coming from the control valve or pump when using it ?
No noise I've noticed.
You might have burned all the oil when you welded the filter housing. It's common on aluminum, especially castings to have to weld and grind it out several times to get all the dirt and oil out. Just keep an eye on it. The nice thing with aluminum is you can reweld it again and take more steps to burn all the oil out. The weld isn't completely black which indicates you got it pretty clean.
Tried it again before supper. 45 minutes on a hot day digging in soil about half gravel, half boulders. No evidence of earlier symptoms. Plenty of digging power, little settling. If I fully extend dipper, extend it all the way, boom 45 degrees from vertical, I'd guess 3 hours to touch the ground. Could it have been air in the system, emulsified oil?
That's great news!
Good news, Willie! Yes, probably air. Wow 3 hours is good.
Not bad bleedoff for an older machine, could have been air or the mixing of new/old oils with whatever moisture still in the old oil.
The problem came back. I'll say when the boom just falls I use all the hydraulic flow to overcome the boom falling, there is nothing left for other functions. The problem is some of the time. I believe it is worse when hot oil, but sometimes it digs fine hot. Sometimes It does it cold. I got a truck/heavy equipment mechanic involved. He was convinced it was a "port relief valve. Took it apart, cleaned & adjusted it, it worked fine a few hours. Testing it I blew a curl hose. Repaired it, made it home. I let it sit 90 minutes, and when I tried it cool it settled quickly, probably 30 seconds to the ground. Five minutes later, it was fine. This machine raises the boom fast, then stops short of latch position. Last little bit is slow cushioning the latching. When it does this that slow raising won't work. I don't think there was any debris in the valve seat. Weak spring?
Intermittent and at any period of time cold hot or otherwise is a control relief or seals in a cylinder overload bypass circuit.
Getting a bit frustrated. John Deere doesn't offer the port relief valve I need. I found a whole backhoe valve used $700. It'd be the only sure thing, but used parts don't tend to be serviceable. I have a John Deere part number AT151814. Every effort to track it pops up a different part. No one knows whether it'd interchangeable or not. I believe this is the cylinder overload bypass circuit.
Take it to a reputable Hydraulics shop, most of these are built by outside source companies and they should be able to match out.
I pay my bills immediately. Locally, I can't find a hydraulic shop able to consider my problem. Here, there are 6 companies who fill hydraulic shops capacity. If there is ever a pause in work load, they will think about me. Until then, they leave my stuff outdoors to rust with no projections as to when they can start.
I had loader that acted similar to your boom once, Willie. After a lot of frustration I found that some dummy in the past had the control valve apart and left out a tiny spring. I looked and looked at the parts book and, what I had on my workbench before I saw it was missing. New spring in it and the loader was perfect.
What does "approve me as a customer" mean?
Not sure I know. Nortrax, (John Deere's dealer network) has a website you can look up parts & order online. I tried the website ordering, got a notice they had to approve me as a customer before I could order. They would notify me by Email. Never did hear from them. It was after hours at the dealer, I couldn't call. As the process evolved, I needed other parts. Calling Nortrax has not yielded any parts. Anything I need is NLA.
JD's AG parts site doesn't work for anything other than looking up part numbers. It use to show stock and prices if you had your dealer selected but doesn't even do that now. Before when it showed stock and prices I tried to pay for something online for dealer pickup and it wouldn't let me check out. It still allows me to put stuff in a cart but no stock or prices given and checkout just gives an error.
Did your "friend" tell you about these issues?
That friendship is fading fast. More my son's friend than mine. I say he couldn't help knowing. My son says he doesn't think he used it enough to know. In truth, I used it to dig a hole the size of a grave with no evidence of a problem.
Sounds frustrating Willie. Hopefully it is something simple you can figure out. The place I used to look up all my Case parts at lost their factory dealership and shut down their parts look up feature...was a great place to search for other views of the machine beyond the parts manuals I have. At least you're working on it know and not in January!
I bought my first Case machine 16 years ago. My Case dealer is an incredible resource! Never needed a part I didn't receive in three days or less. Town Line in Plainfield NH is the best! John Deere says "no, this part is NLA."
Update; I took two Port Relief valves out this evening. Not a lot going on. If I get it, a needle in a small port is pressed by a spring. When pressure reaches enough to lift the needle from its seat oil floods the space at the head of a very small piston, overcoming the spring that holds it against a seat. The needle I mentioned doesn't have a conical seat, only a hole in flat. I think wear, or other miss fit, The needle doesn't always find the hole. Four of eight port relief valves are identical, with the boom lift tightened more. This was tight as it could go. I'd guess it had been attempted before under different ownership. Seth & I switched reliefs loosening the new crowd out to where the old was, & loosening the new boom just a bit. Now the boom stays up forever, occasionally the "crowd out" sags, but only a cycle or two. I'm on the right track. I will order a new crowd relief. I believe they are available. I don't understand why John Deere won't say "use the other relief valve, but turn it up." They could have saved me a lot of trouble.
Next question: Where do I buy weldable cutting edge for a backhoe bucket. This one looks like a Danby woman. Teeth are missing. Shanks with teeth are bolted & worn out. Shanks without teeth are worn to nubs. Cutting edge is cupped & worn pretty deep between teeth. My Case has a Hensley edge with 5 tooth shanks preformed on it. I explored that option. Cost made it not an option. I've heard Essco offers something similar.
A place that sells ground engaging tools should have the edge and weld on shanks.
Not sure on where to get the cutting edge but I can highly recommend getting some single point tiger teeth. I bought mine from a CAT dealer and they are holding up great. These babies will rip some roots. I'm not sure if these eBay teeth are the same quality as my factory CAT teeth but they may be worth a try. Mine cost $100 just for the teeth and retainers without the shanks. EDIT: These folks have some edges also. If you don't see what you need you might try messaging them. Their shipping is kind of high so watch for that too. https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-CAT-Style-J200-Backhoe-Bucket-Shanks-1-Lip-Rock-Teeth-1U-3202TL-119-3204/261889643608?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
evil looking
Not sure they'd last where I live. These have 100 hours on them & it isn't even the bucket I use for rocks & trees. The 12" I rebuilt last year is better suited for rocks, and even logs. Digging stump in sandy soil that'd be sweet! Also, where I can, I take out the stump when I take the tree. 16" & smaller, drive those teeth into the trunk. push up. Bigger trees I tear some roots out on one side first. I've taken 4' diameter pines that way.
After removing two valves, finding them to be identical except adjustment, I wondered if the other valves in the stack were available. I asked to speak to Service department at Nortrax. We discussed the part number: NLA Alternative part number, shipped from stock pre adjusted to lower pressure: NLA Can you sell me a rebuild kit? A: No. You mean there is no kit for any of 8 port relief valves on this valve pack? A: No, we list rebuild kits. they're $53.00. I'll have it to you Thursday. I'm not sure why they couldn't have mentioned that option weeks ago!
As for a much earlier subject, not enough front weight, when I replace my front tires on my 580sk I plan to get them foam filled, no worry of flats, and adds a good deal of weight.
OK, never heard of foam as extra weight. Nor have I felt the need for more front weight on the 580K. The over center parking position of the hoe makes a difference in balance. Mine has the 900 LB counter weight in front & I can swing the hoe to the side to compensate for side hill. The JD locks the hoe center, & hangs it off the rear. Can't seem to keep front wheels on the ground, and I need right foot for the throttle. I'd steer left foot on brakes, but it is needed for the clutch. I need more feet to use a JD. Of course both my Case 580K & JD 410C are extend a hoe machines. Case says extend a hoe adds 2050 LBS to the rig. heavier tires, heavier counter weight, and heavier hoe.
My 580sk is cab, heat, a/c, extendahoe, 2' heavy duty bucket, and I was thinking 1500lb counterweight, but driving up a decent hill the front tires are off the ground. ♂️ I mean it's tolerable, but the extra 150lb per tire would help. It's a polyurethane kinda like what seals windshields in.
The front tires on my 580sK are filled with water, just like the rear tires on a farm tractor. It helps a lot. And it was free...
I have seen tires on small backhoes and forklifts filled with foam...they are heavy! I have also seen a tire filled with foam that was so out of balance that the forklift operator felt like the bounce was going to eject him from the machine. We sent the tires out to be filled, so I know nothing of the process or what went wrong in the case of the forklift, because others were just fine. I remember that once the tire is filled, it is done, so in the case of the forklift, a several hundred dollar tire was scrap. I believe they have to cut them off the rim because they are solid once filled, again, we sent them out so I am not familiar with the specifics, only that we had a bill to pay. All the above stated, they did work as intended....weight and no more flats. Personally, I think I would stick to the beet juice. Willie B being in VT, I dont see water as an option.
Am using Methanol and water in my AG tractor Fronts as well rears, All tube type. Tires remain Fixable and rims do not need replaced when a tire is due. Know when get a thorn in a front, becomes a fountain.
Rims are still usable afterwards just have to cut tire off. The place that fills them will cut them off
For how much? I've got a JLG lift with foam filled tires that need replacing. Tires are original, broken down and falling apart, but they are foam filled. I'd have them replaced already if they were still pneumatic.
In PA, I don't think water in the tires would be a great idea, I really don't road my backhoe much, so not overly concerned with out of round. If calcium and stuff wasn't such a pain that requires a pump I'd go calcium since it's the most sense fill.
The old standby has always been calcium chloride. It weighs much more than water, won't freeze, and inside a not leaking tube, is no problem. One of the absolutes in tractor ownership is that tubes leak, tires leak, oil leaks, coolant leaks. If you got something not leaking, it is empty. Some use second hand anti freeze in tires. It'll kill a beloved pet when it leaks. I'm not going there. Some use windshield washer anti freeze. Less toxic, but expensive. Beet juice is my choice. Tire dealers get 6000 Gallon shipments, and pay for the whole truckload with mark up on the first tire. Very costly, it lasts as long as a tube, and won't kill when it does leak. We play around in antique tractor pulls, spend too much time trying to figure out how to cast lead into unnoticeable add ons. Tires get water until October, then get drained. No rule against weight, but hiding weight and pulling 25000 LBS on a boat looks impressive! I want to add 2000 LBS of lead inside my tires.
Can't say for sure but maybe for free for your business The place I go said he would remove the old tires for free after I told him it cost me a chainsaw chain removing them myself........