Hi, I have parts and service books but the categories used for oils are very different now and I can't make sense of the grades give a low weight SAE30 is recommended for the Final Drives but a pen note says SAE90? Equally it appears to me like my old 753 Bobcat you could use engine oil in everything? Is this almost the case here? Somewhat confused, happens when you get grey, thanks for any assistance.
Should be the same, least the 70s book for my 977 is. I got Torqforce 50 in the finals, 10 for hydraulics and trans I think.
MX45 - Here's the Caterpillar oil recommendations webpage (link below). There's missing information in the "transmission" section. It lists the transmission as holding 28 litres. That's only for the 3F/3R transmission. The 3F/1R transmission only holds 19 litres. CAT Fluid Selector www.catfluidselector.com That's a beautiful little machine, now you just need to install all the correct decals to finish it off! Question: How did they arrange the hydraulics for the ripper? Did they install an additional spool valve, or did they simply install a diverter valve and use the spool that normally operates the bucket clam action?
TO-4 in both. SAE30 for the transmission and SAE50 for everything else.
Thanks Guys, I have looked that all up and have got the right ideas now. Looking at adding NulonG70 to each reservoir. I have has success with their products and think it is worth the effort to reduce wear on any machine including older ones. Oz you asked me in another thread what it cost. It cost me $32K and I would say the previous owner spent over a number of years the better part of $20k on parts alone not including labour. It also had fitted at my request a new ripper assembly which cost about $5k supply only which he fitted for me. I paid separately for delivery of course. I like to check a machine out pre working on my quite steep site so going through the steps. I need to adjust the RH Brake but I think I have a handle on that after reading a bit of the service manual and parts manual today. I will give it a few more turns around the flat before heading up the hills maybe next week to cut a road back into place. I gave the pretty large battery a boost and it took the best part of two days with my Ctek 25000 to get it up to charge but it is there now and holding. Fitted a Solar Panel to keep battery topping up and also Amber Flashing Light to keep stupid away. First Photo is of gravel grid I have laid on bottom section I tidied up with Kubota 46hp but it won't do the steep bits. Hence acquiring the CAT. I can attach photos of what I propose if anyone is interested of where I am going!!!
NB I have just found out the previous owner put 85/140 in the reduction gears and SAE 30 in the transmission??? NB2 Drive infilled with Granite 10mm. First 80 odd meters done and another 220 meters to go for the first section.
According to Nulon's PR sheet G70 is for mechanical transmissions. Personally I wouldn't put it in a powershift transmission based purely on that alone. Use a good quality oil in any compartment and additives become unecessary, unless the equipment manufacturer specifically recommends them. (the addition of anti-chatter additive in wet brakes is a case in point) I defer to your personal experience but most of these products are snake oil IMO and not worth the money. YMMV. The viscosity of an 85W140 gear oil is measured on a different viscosity (gear oil) scale to TO-4 oils that are measured on the crankcase oil viscosity scale. Roughly speaking an SAE50 TO-4 oil falls in the same viscosity range as an SAE90 gear oil. See attachment. In your climate conditions (no really cold starts) I fail to see the benefit of using a multigrade oil in the rear end. In Antarctica or North of the Arctic Circle it would be a different call.
Thanks for the understanding about the gear oil and ratings it sort of worried me a bit if the oil was wrong. I have used the Nulon product (no am I not affiliated in any way) for many years in different transmissions and diffs on cars with success in making them quieter when they were a bit noisy and they gave me no trouble. Hence the +ve outlook on them. I have sent a technical query off to them so will find out tomorrow maybe Australian EST. (Summer Daylight Saving) Before I do anything.
So "worn" in other words.? A bit like someone using Lucas oil treatment to get a bit more oil pressure in the engine of a car they want to sell and pass off as a "good runner" to the buyer.? Are there any weird noises in the 931B.? If not stick to the recommened oils and don't waste your money, again IMHO.
HI, no weird noises but only driven less than 100m to service locale at the moment. I am hoping for no negative surprises. The Nulon assisted shifting in a high km Subaru Auto transmission, has quietened down power steering, etc. It does not 'fix' things but appears to have them operate smoother. Better left at that. I already have the G70 on hand so no cost not already spent.
Oz, I don't know how he connected the rippers but they work off a small lever to the RHS of the driver's seat that looks like it was meant to be there. Once I get the gear out of the bucket I can operate both and see if one lags when using the other.
Nulon G70 contains PTFE, (Polytetrafluoroethylene), which has many useful applications - but mostly in coatings. As an oil additive, I cannot ever recall seeing any approval by any manufacturer of the use of oil additives containing PTFE. Neither have I ever seen any independent oil chemistry research or conclusions where oil with PTFE additives was tested, and provided verification of improved performance and lifespan. Virtually all the claims by oil additive companies are hyper-marketing and they do not produce independent test results. In fact, Nulon say not to use G70 in automatic transmissions. Multi-plate, oil immersed transmissions, such as most automatics and Cat powershift transmissions, require specific oils with tailored additives that provide good lubrication, without allowing excessive clutch plate slippage. I see no harm in using the Nulon in the engine, but I would studiously avoid using it in the 931B transmission. As regards the bevel gear compartment and the final drives, I have read that PTFE is undesirable in gear trains where an EP oil is specified, as the PTFE particles shear under heavy load. EP additives leave a metallic coating on gear teeth that are under heavy load, thus preventing metal-to-metal contact, and protecting the teeth from damage. PTFE molecules could interfere with this process. As regards the heavy 85/140 oil in the final drives - no harm done there, it's still a suitable gear oil, just a thicker viscosity that is designed for high ambient temperatures. You may notice a small amount of power loss to the tracks with the thicker oil in cold conditions. With regard to the 30 weight oil in the transmission. If he used SAE 30 engine oil in the transmission, this oil is not designed specifically for transmission use, it's designed to be used in engines. The Cat TDTO 30 (as recommended) is a specifically-tailored transmission oil for Cat powershift transmissions, and will provide better wear protection than an SAE 30 engine oil. Regarding the tractor pricing, I think you got a superb deal, that tractor is worth considerably more than you paid for it, after seeing the reconditioning work that has been carried out on it.
^^^^^^^^^^^^ Wot he said - wiv knobs on.........
HI, No expertise on this end technically. Really appreciate your informed opinions as it gives pause for thought. In relation to the purchase price I think I am blessed and very fortunate at the same time. I have seen advertised as recently rebuilt and seen track plates missing in photos on super sloppy tracks, etc. I had been to see plenty of equipment that was pretty sketchy but seller was saying great condition. Inspected very large dozer at one stage and was at Auction but pulled the dipstick in the engine to feel essentially sand grit in the supposed oil which could not have been blacker. Walked away. On the information I had this could not have been a better purchase in that I want the machine to work for some time without major issues. No guarantees of course but absolutely best place to be. I doubt there would ever be another one like this. Appreciated,
Generally because they cannot find an independent laboratory that can reproduce their claims. Think Theranos as a good example in the biotech sector.
I can recall a marketing stunt by one of the oil additive sellers, whereby they manufactured an acrylic oil pan for a Holden 6 cyl engine, put it on a stand at shows, filled it with oil, put their additive in, then drained all the oil out of it, and started and ran the engine continuously. It was supposed to be an "Ooooh-Aahh!" exercise that defied physics - an engine running with no oil! But - they never ran the engine over an idle - and there was always traces of oil running back down the acrylic walls of the oil pan - thus proving the oil pump was occasionally picking up a bit of residual oil, and pumping it through the bearings. Our offers to grab the throttle and whip it wide open, and keep it there for 10 minutes, were always declined, for some reason!! LOL
Update, well not all that glitters id gold. RHS Brake was pretty much on the floor and took me a while to make my body bend enough to get to those cover plates for the brake adjustment and then get the right combination of socket bars to reach the 9/16 brake adjuster. However adjusted to spec and RHS brake is now like LHS Brake pedal. Hope when I put the rest back together it operates to spec as well. There were a few bits and pieces not quite right but I still think the machine should be solid, touch wood!
Unfortunately, regular brake adjustment is a feature of dry clutches and brakes. The oil-immersed clutches and brakes are a massive improvement, and they run cooler, too. But, you have to work with what you've got. I don't think you're going to have too many major problems with that machine. The other feature you'll soon find out though, is that everything is a nice tight compact fit on these 931's! Makes for some figuring out how to get to, and work on, various components!
Hi Oz, you are a prophet. I have invented Reverse Yoga or Limbo dancing for the Elderly after working in that compartment. I wrongly identified the humped domes as the location of the brake ports for adjustment so did a lot of panel removing only to discover the brake inspection/adjustment port just in front. Oh well other than one lost bolt to bell pan heaven I got it done and the brakes are huge improvement and still drives, steers and now pedals are pretty near equal height although respond differently. Saw some surface corrosion of fresh rust in the cavity and some condensation so I would have to run this machine frequently to avoid a freeze up. I suspect maybe it has not been run frequently recently. Rain here the next few days so no work on the slope for a little while. I am certain I had a really big smile though when the little bit of WD 40 on the throttle control made it so much more manageable/smooth to control engine revs and motor started up straight up. With 150engine hours on the machine and new oil at 100 so 50 hours on this engine oil it is remarkably very clean - hardly a colour to it. That is MAGIC. Thanks for all your help. I do have by way of mention the old crankshaft (scored) and the old cylinder head which will need work to use again and I don't anticipate using them as a new head was put on and a new crankshaft put in. Since you are rebuilding should these be of use to you please let me know. Also a set of counterweights as I am never likely to remove the rippers.
MX45 - Yes, these Cat designers can produce a lot of hidden trickery, can't they! I'm not sure what can be done about corrosion in the steering clutch compartments. Welder Dave brought up an interesting angle when he said he thought that Cat had originally filled the compartments with nitrogen, and not fitted breathers to them, to try and reduce corrosion problems. I have some anti-corrosion sprays I picked up at auction, they are produced by Cortec. Cortec produce a vast array of anti-corrosion treatments - everything from protective plastic films to sprays and coatings. Their range of products is just amazing. One of their products I acquired is VpCI-337, a waterborne anti-corrosion agent designed for short-term protection. I was going to try some in my steering clutch compartments to see if it dampened down the corrosion. Another of their products I acquired was a heavier Cortec spray coating, which is very much like Cosmolene (the common coating in parts protection and in battery terminal sprays). I was also considering the use of this product. The VpCI-337 has a relatively short life, so perhaps the heavier Cosmolene-type spray would perform better at dampening corrosion in the clutch compartments. https://www.cortecvci.com/products/ I'm all set as regards cylinder head and crankshaft in my engine, thanks very much for the offer, anyway. My crankshaft turned out to be near perfect when I stripped the engine, it just needed a polish, and the dimensions are still standard, so I'm fitting all standard-size bearings. My cylinder head is also in great condition, it's been reconditioned with all new valves and new valve springs, and K-line inserts were installed in the guides. The valve seats just needed a light clean-up, and the head is now, as-new. I would be very interested in your counterweights, though. My tractor has no ripper, and although I'd like to fit one, it's not a major priority. I'll send you a PM.
All Good, I will get some photos together but not today, pretty tired.
Which counterweights are you talking about? I wasn't aware of rear counterweights other than the sprocket counterweights or bucket counterweights or counterweighted idlers for use with a backhoe. I could be mistaken though. I remember from the brochure the ripper used it own control as did the 4 in 1 bucket. I'm curious if the person you bought it from added the ripper section or it already had it. As far as adjusting the brakes I've mentioned a simpler way to do it as was told to me by Bob/Ont who was Cat dealer mechanic and absolute guru on these machines. You could find it in the archives. It's a little long to type out right now.
Hi, I read the brake thing and then could not find it. I did a whole lot of unnecessary work lifting the wrong cover. Once I found the adjuster under a smaller cover I managed to get a 9/16 socket on a wobble bar and turn it Clockwise quite a few times to left the pedal up. Successfully as the pedal and drives work correctly for the few minutes I tested them in forward and reverse. The counter weights are in a packed set of five and bolted together. There are cut outs for it to fit. I will attach photos in a few days. The rippers assembly data are in the other post inquiring about my serial no details for the CAT. They are specifically designed for the 931 as I understand it. Photos in other thread as well. NB I could not find or see the underneath brake band adjuster and since it was only rebuilt 150hrs ago I made the call that the top adjuster would be enough to solve the issue without creating others. I did notice that the adjuster I would say had high and low tension points as I turned it but did not click like a vehicle brake adjuster that has the wheel and teeth? I imagine it could unwind under pressure and so maybe that is why the pedal was low, but only surmising.
MX45 - Ahhh, sorry - my misunderstanding here. I thought you were discarding the SPROCKET counterweights - which is what I really am after. I already have the plate counterweights on the rear of my tractor. The sprocket counterweights are useful as additional stabilising to the 931B when you have the bucket raised. Dave - These are the standard rear counterweights on the 931B when there's no equipment hung off the rear of the tractor.
On the brakes you have to make sure they aren't dragging. The machine should coast if you drive and pop it in neutral on flat ground or on a slight incline. In theory and maybe when new you might hear a click when adjusting the brakes. There is a flexible metal piece that that runs against a star wheel type deal. There should be round pipe like protection rings around the brake support bolts underneath. The bolts are a square head with a jam nut to keep them from moving. If you don't have those, you likely have wet brakes. I can't remember if you've mentioned the types of brakes. It's really important the brakes don't drag if they are wet brakes. They will chew into the drums. The easy way to adjust the brakes is to take the rod off that goes to the hump on the clutch compartments then tighten the brake bands up snug, not real tight just snug. Also snug the support bolts underneath and then back them off about 1 and 1/2 turns. With the band snug shorten the rod going to the hump as short as possible that you can still get the pin in. The pedal should be all the way up. Now loosen off the brake band adjuster to get the proper pedal travel about half way down. This should also be about 1 1/2 turns. Then test the brakes and make sure the machine will coast in 2nd gear when you pop it into neutral or on a slight incline. I adjusted mine after having the clutches rebuilt and new brake bands installed and haven't had to adjust it in 3 or 400 hundred hundred hours so I don't think they need constant adjusting. I never really thought too much about the rear counterweights since I have a backhoe and the brochure I have shows a machine with the backhoe brackets. It certainly explains why my machine is light on the rear with a full bucket of clay without the backhoe. The 4 in 1 bucket only makes it worse. I need to remount one of the sprocket counterweights. The sprockets aren't Cat and have torched holes for bolting the weights on but the holes are a little big for the washers that were made. I'm going to make some larger washers so they can't pull through the holes. I almost had the weight fall off so I took it off. Not a big priority with the backhoe on but I want to fix it. Had to torch the bolts off because I used Loctite and it's a bit of a pain getting at the bolts. The ripper is specific to the 931 and D3 machines. It seems amazing that the previous owner of your machine could just find one. One thing I like better about JD machines is the ripper and backhoe both use the same mounts so you could have both attachments and not have too much trouble switching between them. If I didn't have the backhoe on I'd tip forward with a heaped bucket like below. Might even with counterweights. I thinks it's about 1 3/4 to 2yds. of moist clay.
HI, all good then as they are the rear counterweights for sure. The ripper assembly came from a machine/parts supply company and was obviously sitting out in the weather although brand new as paint had faded but still warranted by the dealer. Looks fine in operation. Yes, the machine rolls in reverse and first down a slight incline readily and brakes are pretty even. Content they are as good as it gets. I think the brakes are dry brakes as no fluid in compartment with adjusting rod except some condensation.
Sounds good but there should be the support bolts underneath. I've read of some people leaving them out so water can't accumulate in the clutch housings but I think dirt, mud and other debris is then going to get in there. Taking the bolts out occasionally to check for water is a better idea. I mostly keep my machine parked inside now I have a pole shed. Theoretically the compartments should be sealed but I think heavy rain and especially snow piled thick can still find the smallest little unsealed area to get in. I also try not to drive in deeper puddles for the same reason. When the brakes are working properly it's a nice productive loader. Obviously with a backhoe heaped buckets aren't a problem. I can overload a tandem dump truck with 6 buckets like the 1 in my previous post.
Yes, I acquired the CAT to re-establish one route on my property about 350meters and cut at lest three pads, one being for the shed which will house it and all my other tribe of machinery, etc. Should have built it more than 21 years ago but did not have the foresight. I hope to get that done sometime in the next year to be complete. First is the road to be able to get standard vehicles to the pad site for the house. Then cut the shed sites and the machinery shed first. I am close to the coast so getting stuff out of the rain save a lot of maintenance time on rust prevention, treatment.
I should have put up my shed a lot earlier too but sure nice to have now. Organizing though is another huge issue.