Any thoughts or opinions on these machines, conducting as much research as possible on subject matter pertaining to new business venture. All input provided is appreciated. Thanks...
A papermill I deal with bought one four months ago. It has needed over $10,000 in repairs in that time. The mill has demand JCB take it back, their engineers are coming Tuesday to watch them load paper with it. That said they are hard on stuff. They have bobcat S175s also. Both have had sveral boom arms and one they broke an axle off, that said they went two years before anything major went wrong.
Thank you Bocatdan, I really appreciate the input. The reason I am looking at these machines is two fold. One, I have a Volvo CE dealer in my area and all I have ever heard or personally experienced is Volvo makes excellent wheel loaders, decent hydraulic excavators both wheeled and tracked all being extremely fuel efficient with minimum down time. I also personally know the owners of this areas most successful underground utility contractor and they won't use anything but Volvo loaders, in fairness to them they swear by and only own Liebherr excavators, the gist is a one stop shop for all my equipment needs. Two, I once nearly injured myself permanently while getting out of a Bobcat, and never quite understood why an Operator should be forced to climb over an implement to gain access to his or her cab. These new Volvo/JCB machines are side entrance which in my humble opinion is a far safer configuration for both myself or any future employee. I really, truly believe in safety and an Operator's well being. Again, thanks for the input. Regards, Sean
If your ultimately concerned about safety and find that a typical skid steer or CTL is fundamentally unsafe than the JCB based skid steer is your only option. There is not disputing that. The dispute will come as to whether that is a reasonable concern or not. Check the OSHA website and people have been crushed and killed from falling skid steer buckets while exiting under them. No doubt many have been injured from stepping into a machine over the bucket or attachment. Again most are willing to take these risks. Partly because the standard skid steer design looks past these issues so its easy for the end user to do as well. The other fact that has made the safety issue easier to look past is the only alternative is the JCB based skid steer which has been mechanically flawed, little dealer support, and near zero resale value. They have redesigned the machine and according to JCB Iron (frequents this site) it is substantially better than previous. He is obviously not overly objective since he sells them so its up to you the end user to decide how successful JCB was at their redesign (ultimately thats the way it should be anyway).
KSSS, Thank you for your input and you make perfect sense in every sense. But again I have this memory of injury and would not like to go down that road again. Having said that, I will add the my local Volvo CE is well regarded when it comes to customer support and I too have heard there are improvements from previous models. I guess it would be fair of me to say how this machine will be used. Its application would be C&D Recycling in primary pre-sort and basic utility such as angle broom and forklift. True it is an unfamiliar configuration but really nothing more than a mini-telehandler. One of the benefits to its configuration is being able to have a climate controlled cab with protective caging all around, I am not aware of any standard configuration skid steer or CTL which will allow for this. Again, excellent input and much appreciated. Regards, Sean
I don't want to sound like I'm bashing JCB. They are used in about the hardest I have ever seen a skidsteer used. They broke a axle clean off of a bobcar S175. If you do not like getting into a normal skidsteer, and I know where you are coming from, my left knee has little life in it, what about a mini wheel loader like a Deere 244 J. I'm not recommanding the Deere, it is just the modle that comes to mind to give you reffrance.
I think some clarifications are in order. I am a firm believer in a "one stop" source for all my equipment needs, it really does make conducting business that much easier. All of my machines will be Volvo, there is a great Volvo CE dealer very near me. The Skid Steer I am choosing is for the reasons of safety, meaning a side entrance and the ability to place caging all around the cab and having the operator at eye level with the ground personnel which it will work in very close proximity of. This machine will be used on the pre-sort floor in a C&D recycling environment. It will be fully equipped with solid wheels and all necessary guarding as required in the waste handling industry. It will carry as a primary attachment a scrap grapple bucket, at times it will sport a angle broom for floor clean-up at other times it will sport a 48" pallet fork for general forklift work. It will not have to work hard as most "pushing" is done on concrete, it will do precious little lifting as well. It will work in a very hot, humid and extremely dusty environment. If there is the need for heavy pushing or lifting there will be three Volvo L120's nearby to assist. My goal here is to gather information regarding any issues I might have to contend with as far as reliability, longevity, fuel consumption, operator feedback etc. I need to know as much as I can so there are no surprises down the road. I know this machine has a completely different configuration than any other skid steer on the market more akin to a mini-telehandler than the venerable Bobcat. I appreciate the input so far and consider it quite valuable but what I am interested in is those who have experience with these machines.
The machine I was talking about is used to move recycled paper that is dumped from trucks. It runs in a scoops up a load with a grapple, spins around and drives a U pattern and dumps into a compactor. Paper is surpisingly hard and they go threw grapples pretty quick. They break the tilt cyclinder pins so often they refur to them as shear pins. The JCB mechanic is there about three times a week. This is a union shop, machine training is little to none and nobody gets into trouble, the mill dosn't want to put up with grieves. The machine has been a huge failure and they want it gone.
Bobcatdan- Yes, I am beginning to get the same picture about the JCB/Volvo skids. I'm reevaluating my actual need for a skid steer machine at all. An important factor in my decision making process is customer support, what I am now finding is my Volvo CE dealer is not exactly as good as I once thought. I am very happy I joined this forum, in just a few days I have learned more with the insight from others than I have in months of research on my own. I can't thank you guys enough, I haven't spent any money yet but I have definitely saved some already.
The mechanic at the mill who I am pretty good friends with, thinks using skidsteers for this is stupid. He personally thinks a forklift with a baleclamp would move the paper much better.
Bobcatdan- I haven't decided yet if for my application a skid steer is unwarranted, I honestly don't care for them that much though, a little too jerky for my taste. I will have at least three med/lrg wheel loaders and a good grapple/excavator Operator should be able to accomodate pre-sorting adequately. I still haven't come to any final conclusions one way or another.
I agree with Bobcatdan on suggesting a compact wheel loader. Much easier on tires, much better visibility, less fatiguing to run and I have to think (although I dont know by experience) they would hold up better. They cost more upfront to purchase but it appears to me that they hold their value better. They of course would be much more safe.
KSSS- I'm still on the fence with this decision. If I can make the process work productively and effectively without a skid steer or compact loader I'm ahead of the game altogether. I appreciate all the input however...
skidsteer is the jack of all trades , master of none! just like a mini excavator that weights 8000~10,000 lbs can out trench a 20,000lb backhoe .
Agreed, they're the right machine for many applications same as the mini-ex. My application is C&D Recycling and there will be three med/lrg 20t - 22t wheel loaders present so I'm just not certain if a skid steer or compact loader are going to be worth the extra money. It would be great if some of you had experience in C&D recycling and could give me your insight in a real world application but I really appreciate any input at this point.
Stay away from both, great machines as far as cab entry and visibilty but are mechanical nightmares. I have yet too see one not have some sort of problem.
Thanks RAD, that's what I have come to accept as reality with these machines. I have decided against any skid steer.
ah i am back. did you miss me?? ah we should be getting our new jcb 205 in a week or 2. it is going to be sweet. i will be able to inform people indefinitely about the machines reliability.
Glad you're back, can't say I missed you since I never knew you existed. It would be nice to here how things go with your new JCB in the long term since most in here do not think highly of the reliability of the machines. You could change some minds...
I am just going to throw this out there, I know you don't like the front entry, but how about a bobcat A300 or it's replacement the A770. It is an all wheel steer steerskid. There is a switch on the dash to switch between aws and skid mode. Overall vey reliable and everybody who owns one LOVE them.
Hello Dan, Actually I have decided against any skid steer or compact wheel loader altogether. The whole purpose of purchasing a skid steer was to be able to put together a competitive bid to do C&D Recycling which after the realization of how many heavy hitters were bidding too it doesn't look good for us. I do appreciate your input, thank you...
What is your experience with the new machines? Do you own one? Work on them (professionally)? Just curious as to the problems you have seen. This thread interests me in several areas.....First, I have not heard of any MAJOR chronic problems as are being described. I'm not saying that it's not happening, just that this could be one VERY isolated incident. I could probably cut and paste KSSS's comments from this thread ( ) and post them here. One problem doesn't mean the entire machine/line/brand is doomed for all eternity. If that were the case, we would all still be using shovels and picks. Show me a brand that hasn't ran into a mechanical flaw. Secondly, I would also be interested in the application use/maintenance/etc. Again, not passing blame, but it's kinda like a guy who is pulling triple 17yd pans with a Quadtrac thru 3 feet of mud and a D7 pushing from the back and then complains that he's breaking sh*t.....common sense goes a long way. Lastly, I can only speak from my experience with these new units, but our feedback has been fantastic. We have only had a few minor issues (faulty temp sensor, blower fan relay, etc.) thus far. It's just funny how when a guy owns one brand, it is the best thing since sliced bread and all others are junk or "have had some sort of problem." Funny story: I had a guy tell me one time that his Bobcat Versahandler was the best machine out there (as I was trying to get him to give a JCB a look). I asked a few questions, one of them being "How has your reliability been on your Bobacat?" His answer was, "Oh, it's been great, we love the machine." He then proceeded to tell me the unit had caught fire once, the hitch was slopped out, the boom had cracked (but "they patched it and really beefed it up") and that the reason I couldn't inspect the machine for myself while I was there was because it was in the shop with transmission problems. (unit had about 4000 hours) I know this isn't about a Versahandler, but I think I've made my point. I also know a guy who has a new T770 and it's been to the shop 3 or 4 times in less than 200 hours, so I guess all Bobcats are junk too. It sounds like you have decided to axe the project all-together, so this all becomes moot, but informative nonetheless.
Does that mean you disagree with my view? I think its pretty objective.
The comparison I was making was to the statements you made regarding the TR/TV Case CTL's in the other thread.....I took your point as one isolated incident of mechanical, or in that case, electrical failure does not mean that the entire line of machines is flawed and heading for the scrap heap.....Is that a valid assesment of your commments? If it was, then yes, I agree, no matter what the brand may be.
@KSSS By the way, I think I should get some sort of royalty check for the use of your signature!
LOL! Fair enough, I will give you 75% of everything I make off it, so far, your royalty check is $0.00 but who knows that may change. As far as my comments, yes that is a correct assesment.
Hello JCBiron, Yes, I have made the decision not to purchase a skid steer or compact wheel loader. Personally, I was under the impression that the new JCB/Volvo skids and CTL's were very good machines, although I have never owned or operated either. I became a member of HEF to hear the feedback and experiences of those who have owned, operated or worked on these machines and know all too well about the Chevy, Ford and Chrysler mentality which is why they make chocolate, vanilla and strawberry ice cream, something for everyone. For me there is one major drawback and that is product support, the local Volvo dealership is not well liked and I haven't a clue where a JCB dealership might be in close proximity. In my 15 years as a General/Electrical Contractor I have rented most type machines for various projects and if I really had to make the decision again to purchase compact/utility equipment I would buy Kubota. I have had zero issues with their machines and the product/customer support they have provide me has always been outstanding. So, for me this matter is closed and I sincerely appreciate all the input from those who have contributed to this thread, thank you!
My experince with JCB is based one one brand new unit that has proven so unreiable, the mill rents a backup from us. In four months, the JCB has been down more then actually used.
Sorry for the late reply, first let me say, I really like the concept of the units, great visibility, easy acess into cab, comfortable and decent hydrulic/engine power. Nice looking machines also. So far, engine oil pan failure (300hrs), the structure underneath engine has no access to properly clean out dirt and debris. The dirt/debris sands the pan until it actually rubs a hole in the pan. The same also goes for the hydraulics underneath cab, the tracks actually throw dirt and mud into the hydraulic compartment and builds up terribly. The operators do not even know they have a leak because the built up dirt soaks up the oils and the unit quits functioning due to lack of oil. The above problem is supposed to be corrected on the newer models in production covering the engine compartment. In my opinion, there also needs to be large clean out panels in the hydraulic compartment. The air intake system sucks up the dirt from inside the engine compartment and right into the air filter. Multiple problems with the "one time use fittings" blowing off the hydraulic lines, (less than 10hrs) happened on three seperate machines. Hydraulic hoses rubbing in compartments causing leaks. The entire right side of engine has no access, almost impossible to get to the second fuel filter. Engine oil plug cap is also almost impossible to screw in the enviromental hose drain the oil unless you are "Tiny Tim". Boom suspension problems, bucket float problems, wiring harness rubbing apart.... etc... Multiple problems on multiple machines, these are just the problems I have seen with my own eyes, in fairness I will not list the others I have heard about. I know problems exist with all machines, especially skid steers it just seems as it has been so many problems with these.
@ RAD What application is the unit running in? Also, when was the unit originally placed into service? (how old is it?) I have heard complaints about not enough clean-out access in the belly of the machine. I have also experienced firsthand that the tooth-fairy herself couldn't spin the oil drain hose on that fitting. Right-side engine access is definitely not as good as the rest of the engine, but you have to expect some compromise somewhere....access to the rest of the engine and daily maintenance checks is pretty fantastic. The one-time use fittings you are referring to, I assume, are the smaller servo lines? I'll be honest, I was not a big fan of those when first seeing the machine, but I can say that we haven't had any cause us any problems yet. Eventually, most (probably not all, but most) of them will be gone anyway once the large frame units go to EH controls. As for the other issues you stated, I have not heard of such issues. The only similar issue I am aware of was that when running a mulch head, the cooling fan created a wind-tunnel effect at the front of the chassis between the cab and the frame, and it actually sucked sawdust/debris into the belly. This was easily solved by a $20 piece of weatherstripping, so it shouldn't be an issue on machines going forward. I guess the last thing I'll say is that from a dealer perspective, all new products go thru growing pains. Some more than others, but they all do. I'm gonna reference back to my Ag experience with the Case IH Quadtrac again, but if I were to list all the "small" problems that machine had as it evolved, you guys would think it was the biggest POS there ever was. Quite the contrary, that machine is the baddest articulated tractor on the planet, and I would take anyone's Challenge (pun intended) in the dirt to prove me otherwise. What it comes down to is having a good dealer to help you through those situations and keep you going, whether it be with their service, or with a loaner until your machine is back up and running. RAD, I hope this is the case in your situation.