I have 4 telehandlers which are Lulls with all John Deere motors 85-92. Question is they require oil change at 100 hr. I just was looking at a new CAT model and they said 500 hr. for oil and filter. Are all the newer machines that much more extended for oil and filter? I know cars have made great strides in recent years and I am familar with oil testing on my cars and trucks. Any feed back is appreciated, thanks!
Did you get a spec sheet with warranty requirements for filters? If not, I'd check with what they recommend. I worked for a fella that used aftermarket filters on a brand new CAT engine and they almost pulled the engine warranty when they saw filters other than CAT.
Cat is picky
We have Cat and Komatsu equipment in the fleet. Oil sampling is done on all equipment and Filter and Oil change intervals were increased. Machines with 500 hr change intervals are still changed before the 500 hr mark but are greater than 100 Hrs 250 to 300 hrs.. Both service reps recommend there brand filters during the warrenty period
I don't have a new CAT I just saw it on their web site about 500 hr. oil intervals. What are new JD motors doing for oil change limit.
I think the service manuals are online so I will look the at JLG forklifts. The Cummins manual said 250 hr.
The engine manufacturers make the recommendations on the recommended time periods for changing oil and filters. If you want to run longer I would suggest using an oil sample program of some kind, as dist3 states, to monitor when problems start to show up and then change some time before that base line is established. Personally I have found that the cost of the oil sample program is usually about equal to the savings by extending the oil change intervals. As to who's filters you use, the manufacturer's cannot specifiy their own products in order to maintain a warranty. The Magnuson Moss act passed into federal law in the sixties says that if they specify their product to maintain their warranty they have to give it to you. Having said that, should you have a problem and someone elses oil filter is on the engine when that happens, it might be used as a lever in negotiating the repair. Unlike oils and fuels there are no independant professional organisations that set minimum specifications/standards for oil filters. There are only two or three oil filter manufacturers in the United States and the rest are rebranded in another name. 100 hours seems way to short of an interval from my experience. That would add operating cost to the machine that would be used by competitors as a lever for selling their machines. Cat's 500 hour specification is primarily due to increased crankcase capacity. Komatsu has done the same thing on many of their machines.
How many hours does your machines have on them? That 85-92, does that mean they're 1985 - 1992 models? If so, I assume they have the 4-239 Deere engine, most of those hold somewhere around 2 1/4 gal oil. I agree with John C., 100 hrs is way frequent. 200-300 hrs should be sufficient and an oil sampling program could extend that. I'll say this for you, at least your paying attention to oil changes. I've worked on machines in the field for new customers that have 800-1000 hrs on the oil, talk about not caring for your equipment!
John C just about says it all. Good point about oil capacity. More oil is better. So long as filters meet the same spec as OEM, manufacturers can not holler too much. Now if it is a specialized filter, for some odd reason, that's where you have to look sharp.
Older engines tended to be harder on engine oils in the soot loading department. that might be the reason for the more frequent oil changes. I would stick to that if you are using the new low emissions oil since its add package is for the newer diesels that burn much cleaner and don't need to handle as much soot in the crank case. but i think you could safely take that OCI out to 200 Hrs without a problem. Oil is cheep parts are expensive. in the end your the only one to blame.
You are correct on the engines one is turbo the 92 the others are not. OEM intervals were 100 hrs for oil and 125 if you use JD oil. I usually use JD engine oil filters and a few Baldwin. The machines have 2900 on the turbo then 3200, 6500, 3800. They all run fine with only one waterpump installed on the 3200 hr machine recently. Doubt any have gone over 140 hrs without a change. I want to update as used stuff is so cheap on 2000+ models but I hardly ever had a problem with any of them. Two injection pumps, few injectors, and not much else. I do oil testing on my Dodge dooley diesel and my Ford Excursion and found the Ford needs oil swap at 5000 vs the 7500 recommended and the Dodge can goes 10,000 vs 7500 recommended. I use dino oil not synthetic. Actually one is a Detroit 6500 hr. not sure what type model 4 cylinder it is a 1985 machine. Thanks for the help.
You have a Lull with an old 2 stroke Detroit "Green Leaker" in it? Now that's something you don't see everyday. If that's what it is, it's going to be either a 4-53 (4cyl, 53 CID per cylinder), or a 4-71 (4 cyl, 71 CID per cyl). On either engine the blower is mounted on the side of the block. Look on the other side of the block, the 53 series has a rectangular cover plate on the side of the block with the long length of the rectangle horizontal. The 71 series has 4 individual cover plates on the side of the block at each cylinder. And you need to know this about your Detroit; use only SAE 30 engine oil. Modern multigrade oils have viscosity modifiers that are not good in these engines, the inverted scraper rings will destroy multi vis oils, and over time, the engine.
Way back when I was just starting out we were told to never use less than 40 Wt. in a Detroit unless you were running in the freeze. I'm sure you can't run any multigrade oils is the two stroke fossils.
SAE 40 will do. I was just working with the original Detroit spec of SAE 30, and I considered that Speedpup is in New York. But SAE 40 is a good choice.
I don't know much about the Detroit it is the only one I have not had since new. No blower on it, the JD in the 10444 has the blower. It is two stroke and seems to rev higher than the JD's. Funny I was going to get a manual on it after having it as a yard machine since '92. I had a 844 Lull 1980 with a 318 Chrysler and it was fast but it burned double the fuel may be 40 gallons in 7 hours when I was busy all day. So I sold it and bought this one from a friend for 5 grand less for the 1985. Mine was repainted when I sold it to another friend and he still has it and is a general contractor. It also had a 6' wide carriage which was a PITA for a mason. I have to get the serial number and see if I can get a manual on the Detroit. I have been using 15-40 in it since 92. I'll snap a few pictures and may be you can help me identify it better. Thanks!
Pics please, as I am getting confused here. You stated "I don't know much about the Detroit it is the only one I have not had since new. No blower on it". There's no such thing as a 2 stroke Detroit without a blower, it won't run without it. I'm curious what you have.
Here's a pic of a typical 4-53 Detroit. If you look (in the pic) to the left of where the intake pipe flange bolts the the blower, you'll see a flat area on the block, that's where your model and s/n is stamped. The model number will be the top numbers, it will look like this; XXXX-XXXX. The s/n is below the model number. You will also see the Detroit circle arrows (as seen on the blower in pic) casted into the block and blower.
Well that is my motor:thumbsup:drinkup Never even thought is had a blower. I was looking for some thing like my JD turbo not some thing can of buried in close to the block :Banghead ointhead. I like the sound of it better than the JD and it seems faster in the rpm department and seems like the machine is slightly faster. How do you measure wear or performance on the engine for wear without being invasive to the engine? Sucks I just changed the oil & filter again and put 15/40 Valvoline in it. From what I googled it is a very old design from near WWII. I guess it is not still made? If so when did it drop out of production?
Speedpup, Welcome to the wonderful world of the old Detroit "green leaker". Your right, there's nothing like the sound of a Detroit. My favorite was driving cranes that had the 6-71 and have that thing pegged out pulling a grade. Man what a sound. I think the last production model of the 2 stroke Detroit was the 8V-92T, somewhere around 1995. The engine just cannot meet the modern emmision standards of today, but the parts are still available and probably will be for a long time as there's still a lot of them out there. I wouldn't worry too much about your "just changing the oil", since you seem to do it quite frequently anyway, long before the oil breaks down. Just start using SAE 40 on your next oil change. As for wear/performance, we can't expect your engine to operate like a new one, as it's obviously not. But we can say this; a good Detroit with good compression doesn't have to crank long to start. A good/tight Detroit will fire off fairly quick when start is engaged. A new properly built Detroit will smoke very little if any, even when cold. Aged engines will white smoke a little when cold, but should clear up when warm. Oil useage is important on aged Detroits. Excessive oil useage indicates bottom piston scraper rings are bad. They allow a small amount into the air boxes (Detroit terminology) to lubricate the top piston rings, but exessive amounts mean they're worn. That's when you'll see excessive oil coming from the air box drain tubes and leaking onto the ground. My point is with the Detroit engine; as long as it doesn't "smoke everyone off the jobsite", starts fairly quickly, and doesn't use a ton of oil, you've still got a few years on her. Now that you recognize the "blower", I'll describe to you just what it is and why I said "it can't run without it". It's similar to a supercharger, but it's not a supercharger. It's what's called a "roots type blower". This engine is a two stroke engine, meaning, it doesn't have an intake stroke or an exhaust stroke. It only has a compression stroke and a power stroke. How can it do that??? Well, that's the blower. The Detroit cylinder has air ports at the bottom of it. The piston goes down below the ports, exhaust valves are open, fresh air is "blown" into the cylinders via the blower which removes exhaust gasses via open exhaust valves. Exhaust valves close, blower puts charge of fresh air into cylinders. Piston goes up, blocking ports, compression begins. At top of compression stroke, fuel is injected, piston forced down, power stroke. At bottom, ports open, exhaust valves open, we begin again. 2 stroke engine. I know this is a long post, buy hey, it's Friday night, got nothing better to do, and it's addressed to you. Just thought you might like to learn a little something about your green leaker. We affectionately call them this because they do leak oil. A fellow asked me once "how do I get my Detroit to not leak oil?" I replied "I wouldn't worry about it if it leaks oil...I'd worry if it didn't, because it doesn't have any oil!" I Hope your old Detroit hangs around for many years, your living old school in a modern world.
Oil & filter changes with old vs new equipment? Superchargers/Blowers: Good job of explaining why a 2 stroke (cycle) diesel engine needs a blower ATCOEQUIP. Here's a little more on the subject.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots_type_supercharger Now... explain how a 2 stroke (cycle) chain saw engine works... :cool2... OCR... Edit: That's odd... I made this post at about 11:20 PM... but it shows 07:30 PM... Time stamp at bottom of page, copied and pasted... All times are GMT -7 The time now is 07:34 PM...
I use to play with two stroke motorcycles and loved the power band so that is probably why I found myself fond of the Detroit. Even though it was a Friday night Atco I appreciate the time you and all have taken. Mine smokes a bit when started and is a tad slow starting and needs a shot of ether in the cold but in the yard I guess it will last a long time. Never noticed a leak it may seep with dirt caked on it. Where do they usually leak? I want to clean and paint the machine in the spring. I didn't get to the yard to take a picture of it yet. I did google it and it seems it is shoved in a ton of vehicles and boats. One person but it in an Excursion but I have no clue how it would pass emissions inspection:beatsme. Friend had a Detroit in a Ford 10 wheel dump I think it was 1986 and it always sounded very cool with the whine it had. He just took it to auction and sold it for near nothing and it was still in great shape. I would have taken it for the 1500 he got for it.
OCR, I didn't take the time to tell Speedpup that, in certain situations, that engine will run backwards! Unlikely on his machine though, since it's probably torque coverter drive. That's a nice article on the Roots blower. Thanks for sharing. explain how a 2 stroke saw works!!! I got a chuckle out of that one. I could, but Steve or Digger would probably chide me that this is a heavy equipment forum. :laugh
I know you could... And you're probably right about the chide... OCR...
Well, I wouldn't worry too much about it, it sounds like it's just an aged engine. The leaks are mainly caused by two things, 1) it's an engine that has a lot of gasketed parts on them, gaskets will leak in time, and 2) the most oil leakage will come from the air box drain tubes. These are small 1/4 tubes that extend downward from the block on each side of the engine at the flywheel end of the block. Like I stated previously, the bottom piston scaper rings allow enough oil to pass by them to lubricate the top piston rings. This oil can build up in the air boxes. The drain tubes prevent this build up of oil. Aged engines produce more oil in the airbox which drains out the tubes to the ground. As for the starting and smoking, if you've had this machine for a long time and haven't performed much internal service, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have the injectors tested. If you know a mechanic who can work on these things and have him remove the injectors, an injection pump shop can test them and determine what kind of shape they're in, if they atomize fuel properly. Even if you have to replace them, they're only about 60 - 70 bucks apiece. I could very much improve your engine performance.
ATCOEQUIP... don't forget to explain about the emergency shut off... :cool2 I accidental tripped the one on the 4-53 we have... ... ... LOL It would still run... but talk about smoke... Might cause issues with the blower too... OCR...
I pull the emergency shutoff so they can't start it by the starter by jumping it. It is next to the seat in the Lull and I have to reset it when returning. Sadly a few times I forget and I am trying to start it and it turns into a swearing match then I realize my stupidity
Hee hee. That reminds me of one day back in the '80s when I worked for a crane outfit. One of our operators was driving #154, a Link Belt HC200 with a 6V-53 called on the radio that the crane quit on the ramp to the weigh station. Said it tries to run, but just kinda idles and smokes! He was in a panic! I was just 5 minutes away, jumped in my service truck and drove to him, raised the hood, re-set the E shut down, and said "fire it up!" It started and he looked at me like "what the X#@* did you do?"
I drove an FWD with a 6V53 in it, that truck was an absolute pig. Made all kinds of noise and smoke but wouldn't get out of its own way. I drove an Autocar ten wheel dump with a 6/71 and 13 speed, not a powerhouse but it got me around. The trucks with Cummins and Macks would outpull it. The Detroit that impressed me was the 6V92T, that engine would lug like a 4 stroke. It was rated at 300hp and would stay right with the Cummins 300s and it was much quieter than the other Detroits. There's a rock quarry about ten miles from me and when the weather is right, I can hear the Terex haul trucks with the 12V71s climbing the hill out of the pit. What a unique sound. There's a traffic light about a mile and a half away from my home and just yesterday I heard a truck with an 8V71 pulling away from the light. You don't hear them so much anymore and when I do it gets my attention. Someday I want to buy an old truck with a 71 series in it and preserve it.
Hey Steve, I have to agree with you, the 6V-53 was nothing but noise. No sound, just noise. A pig is an apt description. But as for the other Detroits; you have admitted to being a "Detroit Nut". That is, when you can recognize what engine it its by the sound of them...your a Detroit Nut! It means you've been in the seat of one of them. It's no argument that the Cat's, Cummins, and Mack's today can produce much more horsepower than the old Detroits, but they can't match the sound. May Detroit's live forever!:usa
Steve i was thinking that the 92 series was a four stroke engine:beatsme Not sure about engine with convertor ,but i know for sure that one with a hydrast transmission will get you in trouble with engine running backwards. One of my trencher which is a 1975 model has a 471 and has seen reverse before.You will know and not forget.Smokes comes first then here comes the oil out the aircleaner.Not a pretty site. As how you say? with the trencher when i was diggin i hit a hard spot and before i could get the hydost pulled back the engine was lugging down and almost ready to die.About this time i get excited and pull the hydrost level back in the process it goes over center.Just as the engine stops the hydro pumps and motor is still turning ,but in reverse,about this time the 471 fires up ,but backwards.SweeTTTTTTTT ! Now you looking to find the kill shutoff button Another way is can happen is when you go to start it.You crank it over a little then let up on the starter button just as it kicks back and for some reason your in a hurry? imagine that !!!! You hit the start button again on the kick back and it fires running backward.This is rare,but has happened,not sure why since you would think the start should be trying to turn it the right direction unless the compression during the kickback is over powing the starter and with the electricity turning the starter it actually turns the starting for an instant backwards also:beatsme It did happen:Banghead:usa
Detroit engines had a rather weak torque curve. I found it rather amusing they found they're way into so many different pieces of equipment. Barber Greene/Dynaplane had them in their asphalt milling machines and they had NO where near enough power. The sound was unique and deafening if exposed for it too long. I heard stories of truck drivers going deaf after spending to many years in a truck with one. (I think some of them had the exhaust blown off too)
The 92 series Detroits were 2 strokes too. The 60 series was the first I knew of that was 4 stroke. I got the 6/71 in that Autocar running backward once, I was hauling on site and got bogged in mud. Just before the truck was about to stall, I threw in the clutch. The conditions were just right that the motor spun backward, it started making a funny growling noise and smoke was pouring out the fender mounted air cleaner. I pulled the fuel shut off quick on that one. When the engine is running backward, so is the oil pump so there's no oil pressure, bad for the crank! The truck I drove with the 8V71 was an old White 9000, I always wore earmuffs in that truck.
Your right Steve, the 92 series was the last production Detroit 2 stroke. They developed the 60 series 4 stroke to replace it, which is the engine used today. I've heard a lot of drivers say it's a really good engine. You described the ideal situation to make the old 2 stroke run backwards. Makes your eyes pop out like a stomped on bullfrog the first time it happens to ya'. I'd say by the time this thread is done, Speedpup will understand he has one crazy engine in a Lull of all things. As for the post by Milling_drum, one of the many reasons the Detroit was used in so many machines was the versatility of the engine to accommodate the machine designer. Take the inline engines for example; you can have the crank turn clockwise or CCW, the blower or starter will go on either side. You want the exhaust manifold of the other side? Simple, switch sides with the cam and the dummy cam and turn the head around. Also was the ability of so many components to bolt up and drive off of the engine. Compressors, pumps, etc. 6 cyls not enough for ya'? You could take two 6-71's, bolt them together, you now have the 12-71. An almost endless variety of ways to configure the engine as compared to other engines that were designed just one way and you have to design your machine to fit the engine. No, they weren't the most powerful thing on the block. Noisy? Some models for sure. Driving them for so many years I think is the reason I don't hear my wife so good! Ha Ha. Detroits seem to have a unique trait among engines; you hate 'em...but you love 'em. :usa
modular engine system you decribe sounds really great. Bolt towo together
Yep, Detroit could do that with their inline and V engines. Two 8V-71's together and you have a 16V-71.
how big of a bolt together engine did Detroit ever use?
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it would have been the 24V71. Ususally used in applications like barge towes of big generator units. As Steve mentioned before, the 12V-71 was used by Terex/Euclid in machines like haul trucks. Detroit would join two 12V-71's to make the 24V. It was actually easy for Detroit to make the 12V, it's basically the same design as the old 8V-71 V block, they just extended the block pattern by two more holes on each side, now they had 6 / 71 CID holes on each side of the V block. Put some 6-71 heads on it and away we go. It's like I said to Milling_drum previously; the poularity of the Detroit with machine builders was due largely to the versatility of the engine. Heck, I'm surprized they didn't build it to where it would run upside down.
I've worked and few of those old 12V and 16V 71s but never even heard of a 24 cylinder 71. Basically you can get the same horsepower by going up in cubic inches to the 110 series and later to the 149 series engines. The Haulpak trucks mentioned in another thread started out early models with 6-110 engines and later went to the 16V71 engines and on to the 1710 Cummins. All three engines ran between 700 to 750 horsepower. I've seen 24V149 engines running 2,400 horsepower, but not for long. Marine use saw the cylinder sizes even larger with 268, 278, 567 and so on. Those engines were all two stroke and had the same adaptability to application that worked on the 53 and 71 series motors.
There you go Speedpup. I knew there would be someone out there who knew more about it than I did. Fairly big engines. But yes, JC, Detroit did make a 24V71, you'll find them with a quick google search. Even I stand corrected, I was just looking at a PDF at mellingengine.com for Detroit engine parts and they list a 32V-71. Never heard of one of those myself.
GM engineers had a great time bolting blocks together to make larger engines. I dimly remember seeing a 24V71 once, I think it was on a large generator setup for an oil rig. Don't forget that GMC engineers bolted two V6 gas engines blocks together for truck engines in the sixties. They would pass everything but a gas station. I gotta agree about the 2400 HP 16V92's. They busted rocker studs like crazy at that setting. My Titan fleet in West Virginia had at least one engine out of commision every day at the higher horsepower, so we reset them down to 2200HP and started getting longer service hours out of them. We started using an updated and stronger stud too. I really didn't like the 16V92's. Everything about them was expensive as hell. The 71 series was a lot better, but of course, they couldn't come up with the pony's.