which works for starting better ? when is cold i have got a problem to fire up the engine in my backhoe case 580sl... cummins 4t-390 im thinking to put some additional heaters... and the question is... oil pan heater, engine block heater, both or that just a waste of money? oil pan heater in my opinion already have got one big disadvantage... is very low and in big mud i might destroy plug/pins... im planning to turn on heater max about half hour before start/work, not for all night...
Your best bet will be a circulating block heater or a frost plug heater . 1000 watts would be enough. oil pan heaters can be added later if you are starting in -40 or colder. Using a 0w40 oil will also improve starting a lot.
You are asking a lot of a heater if you only want to heat for 30 minutes. On my logging equipment that stays in the woods I use 1500 watt tank heaters like the one mobiltech shows above. I can plug in to the generator and normally in an hour or so at -10F my old Detroit 2 strokes start without ether. The 1,000 watt ones are plenty big if you can be plugged in overnight. One trick we did years ago on machines with no belly pan was to put a weed burner propane torch into a 3' length of stovepipe with a 90 degree bend stuck on the other end. The heat would be directed to come up under the oil pan heating the engine with no electricity required. One has to be careful not to light the machine up or start dead grass or what not on fire. If -40 we would add a tarp over the top to hold the heat and huddle under it drinking coffee while we kept an eye on it. Not all was good about the good old days.
I would think that an engine block heater would be best for a diesel engine. Here's why... The diesel ignites its fuel with the heat of compression. If the cylinder is cold, the compressed air is cooled by the cold cylinder walls and piston. A block heater heats the cylinder and the engine head. With less heat loss to the cylinder, there is more heat to ignite the first charge. Second a block heater immersed in coolant can have a higher watt density without damaging the oil or engine. This means less time required to heat the engine prior to starting. A oil pan heater heats the oil through the pan. The watt density must be low to avoid cooking the oil. So the heater must be large in area or low powered if small. It will take more time for the oil to transfer enough heat to the block. The only way around this is to have a oil circulating heater to move the heated oil. Experts ... what say you ?
Oil pan heaters work OK if plugged in overnight. Heat rises so the entire engine does get warm if it's a pad style heater on the bottom of the pan. The little B series Cummins used in Case equipment have a plug in the side of the pan for an element oil heater. These MUST be plugged in when the oil is hot, or you will burn the oil. The frost plug heaters for these engines are a 750 watt. As far as I know, that is as big as you can get. I'm not sure if a block heater would warm it up enough to start at -20°F in an hour even if you had 0W-40 oil. I would say a 2000 watt circulating tank heater surely would though.
I have factory installed intake and block heaters in my trucks. And they work great. I have had excellent results with the recirculating pumps installed in my equipment (mentioned by Mobiltech above) as it works by convection...in an hour or two it heats all of the coolant, and will then warm the oil indirectly by heating the block. I only need to plug it in for two hours even when it's down to 0' F.
A circuiting block heater(tank heater) works by the rising heat from the heater going into the head entering on the engine side of the t-stat. The water then circulates downward as more water is pulled from the bottom of the engine into the tank heater. Your head and upper engine gets warm first aiding combustion. A oil pan heater heats from the oil up, a much slower process. I have read about multiple studies that have shown that the friction of the oil in the cylinders when cold is much more than the torque required to turn the crank through cold oil.
Mobiltech and others- can you send a link to this product online? How is this kind of circulating heater installed? (where does it connect to coolant?)
http://www.farmandfleet.com/product...k-circulation-engine-heater.html#.VJDlMrDF-So Here's one. Some of them are more of a small steel cylinder with the same barbs for heater hose. They're mounted low on the engine so the hot water rises and circulates through the engine and back to the heater from another hose mounted at the lowest spot on the heater. The one in the link looks like it has a pump, and they sometimes imply that there's a pump, but none of the cheap ones I've seen does, they need to be mounted right to work. There's usually plenty of holes/ports in an engine or water pump to attach one if you can find the right adapters. They can also be tee'd into the heater hoses, or some other ways depending on your risk tolerance.
Here is an installation on a car. http://www.fuelly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13190 Most car parts places will have them in stock. At least they do in canada.
Block heaters mounted in the block work much better and faster than tank heaters. At least that's my experience. With tank heaters the hot water is introduced near the top of the block and thermostat. The hot water opens the thermostat and much of the hot water just flows up into the radiator. An in block heater like this one for your engine http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/171547466753?lpid=82 Will heat the water inside the block first and therefore the engine before the thermostat opens. Tanks heaters do work but just not as well. I have the same engines with both style and the in block ones always start easier.
Not trying to argue with you oarwhat, but that's not my experience at all. Are you certain your tank heater is properly plumbed? Firstly, most block heaters are only 400w..maybe 600w. Tank heaters are 1000w-2000w. Secondly, tank heaters work by convection...efficiently, by passing all of the water through the tank, and then reintroducing into the block. This isn't possible with a block heater. The convection action of all the water in the block circulating about until it is thoroughly heated with a block heater simple isn't as nearly as efficient as a tank heater.
Not to argue ether but my in block heaters are 1500 watts. Actually hard to find ones under 750 watts for Cummins engines. Maybe you're talking about much smaller engines. Again in my experience with Cummins 855's and BT's and Caterpillar 3306's the in block heaters are better. I have three Cat 980B's with 3306's. One has an in block and two have 1500 watt tank heaters. I've plumbed the tank heaters all different ways. The in block is always warmer and easier to start, even though the engine weaker. The tank heaters send a lot of heat to the radiator and cab heater. If the winds howling they're even less effective. One more thing be careful with a 2000 watt tank heater it takes a lot of amps and you need to use a very good cord.
I have some Cats and Detroits as well (and Perkins). The Op has a Cummins 4t-390. I'm pretty sure the standard wattage block heater for that engine is about 400w. Actually, it does seem to be 750w. Still less wattage than tanks (but more than 400).
Just a point. I recently installed a block heater in my Deere 310C a relatively small engine. The heater is 1000 watts... or about 10 amps at 115 volts. Remember the objective is not to heat the engine block. Heating the cylinder liners & head is what helps the engine start. A block heater puts its heat very close to the cylinders. In the case of a wet sleeve engine, the heated water is right at the head and liners. No need to transfer heat from the oil pan or a foot away via a coolant hose. Less oil drag is just a plus. Heated cylinder is the objective... quicker the better. Watts and distance determine how much time is required.
This tank or circulating block heater is mainly for the smaller engines that you can't get much more than a 400watt heater for. In that case the circulating heater at 1000 watts is faster. When you go to the larger engines where you can get a 1000 or 1500 watt in block heater you are better to go with that. They do make a much larger tank heater with 3/4 to 1 inch hoses that will heat the big engines pretty fast. http://www.enginepreheaters.com/pdf/sb-sl_pages.pdf
I agree 100%
I drove a company pick up that had glycol lines under the hood from the trucks cab heater. We would get to remote location, Open hood pull out heater hoses that had quick couples. Connect these to the crane carrier engine wait twenty minutes and start. these lines were about fifteen feet long and four or five foot taller than the truck engine. It worked great and cheaper and easier to install than some block heaters. You Knew it was working because it sure cause the truck to buck and make Very interesting noises.
The. water seemed to circulate Very well. ...maybe because of temperature differential? Maybe too well indicated by the engine rocking and the interisting noises. Guess I could have kinked the hose at first or installed a valve. Thinking back maybe I could have used an air line and brass valves. And of course the duel flaming either cans!
It's also about making the oil more viscous in cold weather. Honey-like oil can break an engine. To heat the oil it is necessary to heat the block.
Sounds like it boils down to the following options: 1. Heating the air that goes into the engine (aids starts) 2. Heating the cylinders and/or coolant (aids starts, jump-starts heater, etc) 3. Heating the engine oil (helps cranking and initial lubrication action - only helpful/needed in extreme cold) I already have #3 on my backhoe (pad on oil pan). Would be nice to have #1 or #2 in addition. But I park next to a 120VAC power source, so parhaps I just need to fake out #2 with a hair dryer - would need a way to shoot inside the air filter.
I installed a tank heater on my jcb works great been using one on our old ih 270 for 20 yrs starts great even when it is below 0
If you are parked next to a 120 volt power source simply put eother a tank or block(frostplug) heater on and leave it pluged in overnight. Fixou, I still have quick couplers on the 453 detroits on my old log skidder and feller buncher. Warms them up in 15 minutes but normally I do not go play when it gets that cold.