Why is it you think you have got on top of things when you notice something else..because dozers never get boring ! Can i have some opinions on this ,i'd appreciate it. Exhaust ports 1 3 and 4 are oily with black oil .But the engine oil is clean ? I also noticed that the head gasket is bubbling along it's length between the head and the block on both sides with bubbles and oil by a small amount.Even when i turn the engine off the bubbling still happens ,this is also evident with the radiator cap off and no pressure(something i noticed) I was thinking that maybe the oil pressure is leaking past the head gasket and into the combustion chamber ? Or the rings are gone.I am not sure what to think . If the engine oil was black i would just assume the rings were gone,but because its fairly kinda clean, just a tinge really of brown in it i am thinking it's the head gasket . Anyone want to jump in and offer what they think please.. hmmm..$$
That's diesel soot instead of oil. You need to work it hard few an hour or two and it'll dry up. If you don't have an attachment like a blade to work it with, just drag around something heavy to really make it work. I am not sure on the bubbling head gasket thing though. Has it been worked on lately, like maybe the head reconditioned? After you work it for a while, you may find that this problem has been solved too.
Hi d9gdon thanks for that. I would have thought soot is dry ? why is it wet. I have a blade on the front so i can work it when i get it out of my backyard.That is no probs. The wetness comes out of the exhaust manifold to engine exhaust pipe(it's loose and not tight) and drips half a dozen drops every minute and rolls down the side of the exhaust manifold. As for the head bubbling,i believe it has not been worked on recently, i have only had this machine for a few weeks now .I suspect the head may need a retension..
Typical condition of "slobbering" or "wet stacking". Comes from light load operation and glazed liners. Allows a mixture of fuel, oil and soot in the exhaust. If the rings are good, a few hours of heavy work should clear it up but if left to long periods of idling or light load "cruzing" it will reoccur. Head leaking compression around external edge is usually due to loss of head bolt torque and failure to use a head gasket sealer or at least one that works well.
Yair . . . Grizly . From my experience I reckon the fellers have given good advise . . . she needs a bit of work to dry out those exhaust ports. Dunno about the bubbling along the head gasket though. If she was mine I'd prob'ly retorque the head. I'd back of each stud in sequence to make sure they're turning free then torque them to spec. work her butt off for a few hours then let her cool to ambient and check the torque again. Cheers.
Thank you for all the advice ,it's all making sense,but origionally i didn't expect it could be from the engine being run cold by idling...I suspect when i work it cylinder temps will warm and burn the fuel...not do what it's doing.. Some really helpful replies can save a loty of people watsed time and money,so thanks.... It would be good if the dozer was out the bush right now i could just run it hard and see,but i don't have a truck yet and i live in suburbia,i think i'll do a retorqe and try that, get a trcuk and take it out.. The only other thing is the radiator cap (just bought one ) cat price $150 but it still leaks watre because the spout is ot doing it's job. When you twist the cap on it is slightly (dicked) *spell check please * ,So when i put the cap on there is very little spring resistance and as it just starts to feel a tightness its slips open again...it pisses water easily.A radiator expert might need to cut the spout off and refit a new one.
Check with Cat, should be able to get a new spout/neck.
yeah i'll do that,iv'e been in the Cat dealership 3 times in as many weeks ,I guess the spares parts bloke at Cat was right, he said i reckon we havn't seen the last of you..lol i just tried a head retorque but after 8 bolts they all seem tight at 80 foot pound.. so i have decided to pulled the head.I guess like you said it might not have sealant Old Magnet..May as well check it doesn't look like too much work.
Looks like i damaged that Ferrule ? the bore appears to have decent hone marking still...
No sealer anywhere on the head gasket,and all the liners look like this ,hard to photograph ,i tried to add torch light and that helped a bit..
Yair . . . Grizly . Its been along time mate and things may have changed . . . Old Magnet may well know more than I do but I would check it out before using any "sealer" on a head gasket. It used to be pretty much a no no. The prerequisites for the job were an immaculate smooth and clean deck and head, the correct protusion on the liners, a carefully installed new head gasket with all the ferrules and O-rings held in place with a dob of aviation goo and, most importantly a lifting devise or helpers to lower the head gently and absolutely square. Idealy the nuts should spin onto the threads with minimal binding. Cheers.
I'm gonna qualify my comment because I haven't worked on a D2 before, but that head looks like it has been reworked lately from the looks of the valves. Also, it looks like those liners don't have any protrusion. In fact, they look low in the block to me. I might be seeing a shadow around that liner. Can you take a nickel (or local coin) and place it flat on the block and slide it toward the liner and see if it skips over the top of the liner or if it stops on contact? Old Magnet can say for sure when he sees the post. I don't know what the protrusion is supposed to be on a D2. That one ferrule in the block is a water director and should be shaped like that I think.
Coffee hasen't kicked in yet but here goes: Can't see much down those bores......maximum bore wear at top ring...0.015 in. Liner projection 0.002 to 0.005 max. and all the same within 0.002 in. d9Gdon is correct on the water director. If you can get it use the Permatex Super 300 head gasket sealer or the #2 Permatex but it's not as good. Sealer is a must on the D318's (6-cyl) but is best to use on all of them. Attached head torques (for your D311)
Ok now, cheers.. That is great thank you for that diagram Old Magnet, and d9gdon and Scrub Puller there is some kind of protrusion very evident with the gasket off,i will check it with a feeler gauge and straight edge today.Is that with gasket off ? i almost got caught out there with the Numerical sequence and the Alphabetical sequence, until i looked a bit harder ..and now it makes sense. But i do have a couple of questions, of course i do...The Permatex do you apply it liberally to both sides ? I havn't anything to measure the liner wear with, i was wonder if i should go ahead and buy a tool like an internal micrometer to measure the wear ?I see you provided the wear numbers is all.. edited to fix typo mistakes, i see my other post looks like i was typing with a blind fold on...
A little bubbling along the edge of a head gasket is rarely a problem. If liquid wells up and runs down the block- that's a problem. The head is full of captured air pockets around the head bolt holes which draw in moist air when the engine cools. Moisture also wicks into a gasket like this that uses seals around the coolant passages because there's no barrier. The moisture will escape when the block gets hot and creates bubbles at the edge of the gasket. Sometimes the bubbles are just the engine "breathing" moisture. Sealing the gasket with Copper Coat will prevent it.
Liner height check should be done with the liners clamped down simulating head pressure. You will get a false reading otherwise. Light coat of sealer, both sides. Is the liner ridge anything you can catch your finger nail on?
Liners don't have any ridge i can feel. But how do i simulate head pressure ?
gabsgarage it is leaking oil at one section of the head gasket,and the thing is i aint even working it yet,basicly at idle it dribbles at a small section.. Very hard to get permatex super 300 here btw Old Magnet
Something like this:
ahh ,that's quite clever. That will take a litlle bit to make up. thanks
I had a look at Permatex 2 ,given that it is a liquid in a tube, how do you get an even spread across such a large area of a head gasket ? I would have thought a spray might be easier..
Talking about D2 4Us, can anyone tell me the size spanner to use on the two nuts that connect the yoke to the thrust bearing of the steering clutch? What size is it across the flats of the nuts? Also can anyone recommend the torque to tighten the bolt that secures the steering clutch to its tapered, splined shaft? Thanks
High tech!! Just spread it around best you can with your finger. Don't get to carried away with the thickness. The preferred product stays somewhat flexible. The #2 eventually becomes hard, the 300 does not.
I knew you were going to say that....why i asked i don't know.. You know the 300 is not available in Australia, only another one called Permatex Aviation Form-A-Gasket No 3 Sealant, but i can easily get the Number 2 anyway....
Except for a few press fit specs and clearances the chassis service manual doesn't list any torque values. Guess Cat didn't believe in them back then. Just use standard bolt torque chart recommendations.
Why is that water director shaped like it was squashed,when the others are just round ?
I think your correct in spotting the buggered up director. Should be eight of them and they are all the same.
See how these pics look,i notice glazing,can you please tell me what you think...i am hoping the engine will be ok for a bit yet with out honing it and all that.. Also, after i looked carefully i realized that director was exactly the same as the rest except someone had squashed it.. By the way ,the radiator neck turned up ,I guess these things are just pulled out or something..Have you ever replaced one Old Magnet ..
Yair . . . Grizly. I reckon I've seen a lot worse holes than those ones mate, the ole' girl should be good to go for a few hours yet. Don't know on that engine but things like that director can get damaged if you don't have the means to lower the head square . . . I used to like to look through and check that the ferrules were lined up and entering the head and the "O" rings were in place. Cheers.
cheers Scrub Puller...yeah that ferrule was like that when i pulled the head, i put a new scratch on it when i lifted it but i realized the last bloke to work on it must ahve done that.. It now has a new set of ferrules and seals though so that'll help get things sealing up and cooling off properly.. I thought what i was seeing on that glazing wasn't an immediate issue ,to me that is. Hoping it will behave itself and i know when i get her going and start working it , i shouldn't let it idle for very long when it's not working dirt ,that will help spare any type of glazing issue. I need this machine to be up and running asap as we are using to push some leases with..Gold leases,nothing too big time but there is a bit there ,that i know ! BTW... any thoughts on a good engine oil that would suit this D2,they say the correct oil can also help reduce glazing..
From what I can see those cylinders look fine. I can't remember changing the neck on D2's but have done several D4's. Need to pay attention to aligning any drain holes with passages cast in the upper tank. I just run straight 30w oil in mine. Lots of folks run 15-40w.
Yair . . . Grizly . Dunno about these new Hi-tech oils but as Old Magnet does we used to run straight-weight 30w (Mobil Delvac) in those days. Cheers.
That's all good news, there is no ridge at all in the liners so that is even better news . I will go ahead and get that type of oil,you guys have run this stuff before,it is taht kind of experience i will definitely listen to.. I wasn't even going to worry too much about a further problem this dozer has had since i bought it, but if it doesnt really require too much work (more than 40 hours ) i just may have a bash at it. It wont turn or steer left ,This dozer was parked for several years before i got it, i have been told the clutches on one side are siezed ? it amounts to about 3-4 hundred dollars in parts which is not that bad. So how long would it take a bloke with a bit of go in him to do the clutches on one side ? also if it wont go left i guess it's the left side that needs doing? If it were fixed though,it would make a big difference in operating the thing.. cheers
If the clutches (or their operating mechanisms more likely) are simply seized rather than buggered you may find that liberal doses of pentrating fluid while disassembling (the opposite of the famous "Some home assembly required" ) will loosen things up so that the clutch will work. You really don't know until you tear into it. I can probably help you as regards a Service Manual procedure for the D&A plus the adjustments.
Hi Nige I don't have a manual for this ,if there is any procedure you could share i would be grateful for sure.. I ordered a manual but that is weeks away as it is..Usually about 3 weeks.. The dozer was siting he says for 7 years ,so maybe it is just siezed..i would definately prefer to fix it without spending more money, but if i have to and it wont take weeks of work (which i don't have really) i'll give it a go.. Thanks
Mate, it'll have to be over the weekend when I have a bit of spare time away from the Hell Hole known as work ........ I'm busier than a one-armed paper-hanger at the minute......... PM me with your e-mail address plus a complete Serial Number and I'll see what I can dredge up.
busy as too, anytime you can do it nige, there is no rush ,like i said there is one i have ordered,in any case i can start pulling it down and doing it the old fashioned way...will pm you..
gidday grizly. D2 steering clutch plates were a fiberous or asbestos lining and were prone to freezing to the steel plates. Some may have been updated to sintered bronze plates which were better [933Gs had these]. But often if you adjust the release screws up tight and hold the lever back for maximum release. And then load that side track [ try to push or pull something with that track released] it will often break free from the rust freezing the plates together. May work for you or may not. Did for me on my 7U. If it doesn,t its strip down. And on a D2 you have to take the track, track frame and final drive off in one unit to get to the steering clutch. Totally different to all other cats; except 933s. And yeah its abit of work . cheers merv
Thanks for that Merv I am not sure about the adjustments though,where are the release screws found?
I may need some help people . Ok, so i got this far pulling the left hand side to get to the clutch, all the bolts are out,i have a couple of mm seperation,but i fear breaking something as it is still a bit tight. Is there any adjustment you have to back off so you don't break anything ? Am i doing this the right way ,why did i buy a dozer ?? $$$ question ..
Thats typical of D2 stuck steering clutches. They rust up to where they won't separate between discs and drum...often wind up breaking the drum to get them apart. New aftermarket drums are available in the US @ about $250 ea.
Thanks Old Magnet... The nightmare continues $$$ i see. I have it about 1 inch seperated now.. The radiator neck is simply pushed into place, i destroyed mine by twisting it with a wrench until it came free, i also used some heat from an oxy ,then it came free,no solder holding it in.I am now going to assume the filler neck was sealed with a glue .That's what i am going to use to put it back..heat resistant sealer.. I wouldn't usually Butcher something like this as long as the side of the neck kept collapsing easily i was sure it was just pushed into place and no solder.
The best part is i found that all the track rollers on that side have collapsed, what kind of a party will i be having trying to get a set of those... From what simply was a clutch replacement has now become an Everypage Open" rebuild when i get the service manual..
To my knowledge no one is producing D2 rollers. There is one source that may still have the double flange units only (one flange can be removed) www.fpsmitheq.com Try looking for good used. D3 rollers can be adapted with a spacer bar mounted to the track trucks. Looks brutal but that's the common method of removing the radiator neck.
Old Magnet ,i just rang a guy about that ,he said a bit over 2 grand for a set ,i think i'll do that later on though when i have the extra money unless something changes in the next week or so.....i hope it will be ok till i get the time after we use it . i got the clutch pack out ,not sure about the best way to get the clutch springs off so i can seperate it..? Thanks
Make up one of these.....doesn't have to be fancy.
Old Magnet I am going to try and get some D3 rollers, any idea on what part number they are though>? By the way i made one of those presses up today, works a treat thanks for that..
With the later model D2 with longer track frame guys who install D3 rollers usually put 5 instead of 4. Not sure if the shorter track frame(before 1954, serial#13326? Old Magnet will correct this serial# if wrong) will have the room to accomodate 5 rollers.
That's correct, late s/n tractors have the longer track frame. If your going the D3 route there are several things to consider: Use 6S3608 or 3T4353 double flange rollers Use 6S3607 or 3T4352 single flange rollers On the D2 the back roller is cut out for the D2 sprocket. D3 rollers are not so move the back roller forward an inch or so. D3 rollers are a little wide for the D2 chain but work fine. If your going to run D3 chain you need to change to D3 weld on sprocket rim. The pitch is the same (6.125 in.) but the D3 bushings are (1.85 in. dia.). D2 bushings are (1.69 in. dia.) If you need new D2 weld on rims the part # is 7H0463. Nice thing about D3 tracks is the alligator master link. The spacer bar to make up for the smaller D3 rollers is 1-1/2 x 2 in. flat bar.
some great info there OM...
OM did you end up putting that spring adjuster cover back on the track adjuster ? I have not looked at mine yet ,but from your it looks like a spring and thread type of adjuster ? so anyway back to my rebuild..by the way...someone else mind find this topic helpful for sure.I know i am getting by by taking it in from the experts and knowledgable right here (thanks for this) Things are progressing, the right side just came off easily,that is because it's full of water and oil..slipped right off in fact..almost fell off. The steel plates look good . if oil can stop them rusting up,then why don't people run the casing in some oil ? would the clutches slip ? it would certainly stop them rusting together ,and not engaging.The clutch looks fine, i have yet to remove the springs and have a close look at yet. I believe (not sure ) motorcycle clutches run in oil ? anyone know .
Later model steering clutches run in oil. If you don't leave it sitting around you should have no problem with them seizing up. I don't know if it is possible to run the older style ones in oil. The oil ones will have grooves running across the friction material. I'm sure Old Magnet will be able to tell you.
something for me to think about though there PF thanks mate for the input. So the late ones run in oil, but as you mean not the early ones....that is interesting, but as you say they have a groove which must be like a channel to disperse it i guess...Like a tyre tread ! Just makes a bit of sense..but taht could be the mother of all FUs' if i decide it could work for mine... The side that was full of oil was working fine,but i don't know how well it would drive under hard load because i didn't drive it under those conditions.
What I meant was that later model dozers in general have their steering clutches running in oil. I don't know about later model D2's. The grooves are like a cross hatch pattern in the friction material, my understanding is that they are for the oil to escape, like you suggest.
yeah i know what meant...i was just playing with the idea of doing it ,thats all..
None of the D2's or 933's run oil steering clutches. The biggest improvement is the late discs are sintered bronze faced instead of the old organic style that was prone to swelling and sticking.
General Gear will post a new set of clutches pretty cheap ,these ones are Bimetallic Discs ect..Are these the same as what you are talking about OM... Did Cat improve them ? or after market suppliers ? The old clutches i pulled out are swollen to crap...really bad condition ,now i know why i would never had gotten this to free up, and i also am glad in a way because i found that a lot of things need doing really...Brake linings ect seals,the final drive is full of filthy oil and water as well....(jeesz) i think this thing must have bee sitting in a lake for several years.I can't jsut bolt that back in ,it is coming apart ,when i understand how. Can someone give me a clue as to how to seperate the final drive so i can have a look inside ? I have the nut's off ,i tried to split the case and it does for a couple of mm , but the bearings are obviously reverse so you need to press the inner shafts in maybe,it's driving me up the wall .. lol .My service still hasn't turned up yet from the US. Other queries that have arisen are i can't see how much drive clutch i have but taking off the inspection hatch ,thinking that it would be good to check that out before i start reassembly,when ever that happens.... The amount of work required just backed my days off from work up by about 1 month .At the end off the day i will know the machine inside and out,there abouts.
General Gear www.steeringclutch.com is a good source for main and steering clutch discs and other parts. Cat actually made the metaliic disc upgrade back with the 933 loaders. Takes a different count to make up the old thickness so make sure you get enough steel discs and metallic discs. You need to remove the sprocket shaft nut and press the shaft out to separate the final drive housings.
I got a puller and split the final drives finally..The bearing are all shot in the final drives, pitted badly, and the pinions and also pitted but will have to clean tehm up ...thanks I went ahead and ordered from General Gear for a set of clutches and springs ,but have some problems with the pressure plates. The steering clutch pressure plates and inner driving drum surfaces have some pitting ,can i machine these to bring it flat again ? Would not really have to take much off ,but teh rivets have eaten some of the material out, the surface is pretty crappy for a new set of clutch plate to have to bolt up to..
I have never seen anything published in the way of minimum thickness specifications for clutch plates but that being said I know surfaces have been refaced. I'd proceed but with minimum material removal.
If you think about it after you look at the ferrules and seals and all, you will see that the only thing the head gasket does is seal the top of the liners, outside the first step, to the head. All water and oil is handled by the ferrules. Caterpillar instructions were to use aluminum paint on the head gaskets and nothing else. The Cat brand gaskets came with aluminum paint on them back then, We never used any kind of chemical goop on head gaskets. The only time we had any problems with gasket failures was when liner projection was not correct. The liners work themselves down into the block and get "low". If you start with low or uneven liners, everything else will be for naught. The specs given above are correct. You check the liners in four corners, with them bolted down as shown. Make sure that there is a minimum of .002 on the projection above the block (max .005) . There should not be more than .002 difference between the measurements one one liner or between adjacent liners. But the only thing that will leak from the head gasket will be compression (which may be oily). A crack in the head - usually between the pre cup and the exhaust valve, but possible most anywhere- will cause a compression leak into the cooling system but will not always put coolant in the oil. If I take off a head; I always have it Magna Fluxed or dye checked. I also pull the pre cups and change the metal seals under them. Be sure you have a decent seating surface for them on the head surface - this area corrodes easily because the seals are (were) made of aluminum. Be sure to use anti-sieze on the pre cup threads and both side of the seals. A cheap insurance policy for your time and parts costs. If you have an oil or coolant leak under they cylinder head, the problem almost certainally is from one of the ferrule/seal assemblies. Typically, the larger ferrules carry water and the smalller ones carry pressure oil. The seating surface on the head and top of block sometimes become pitted and rough, and this area must be smooth to seal on the rubber grommets. There is a measurement in the little yellow "Servicemans Reference Book Caterpillar D2 Tractor" on the specifications page for steering clutch minimum overall width plates and discs. Unfortunately I do not have that book with me. One last thing was that all of these old tractors recommended 30 weight (straight-weight) motor oil Series 3 (That was the spec for a hi detergent diesel engine oil) Shell Rotella 30 wt was what we used. Doc
Thanks for the replies, i havn't been around here for a week or so ? busy with the rebuild ect and work of course.. BMC ,the head and ferrules for the oil delivery , ah yes ,i realised later on what the extra (number 3 ) rubber ferrule seal was for after i bolted the head down.Of course in the recess of the block or the head ,it should have gone in there.Seeing as when i pulled it down it did not have one i wasn't the wiser when i got a new top overhaul kit.I dug out 3 rubbers ,and wondered why (dahh) they gave me 3 when i need 2 .Oh well ,so now the recess in the block or was the recess in the head now, i can't remember. I now wonder (stressfully) whether it will leak ...oh s## ,after all that work , i learnt i should have had a manual for all this.