hi everyone im new here and i have a question if someone can kindly answer. i have a backhoe which is older and i have not started for about a year.. i have charged the battery but it does not start i have brought in the starter to have it checked all working fine, a mechanic has said to me that the engine is seized is there any advice on how to unseize an engine i have been using diesel fuel but i cannot spin the crank and suggestions.. thanks
Is the exhaust pointing up and open to the weather? then you're in trouble. If not, then you're probably fine. If the starter is still out, take a long screwdriver and pry on the ring gear teeth through the starter hole. If it moves, go to the fan and fan belt, get ahold of the belt with one hand and the fan with the other and turn it slowly. Does it move a tiny bit and get harder? wait a few seconds for the compression to release and continue around 360 degrees. Then put the starter back in, does it crank? if not then you have a loose electrical connection. come back for more advice.
Hi Delmer sorry i went to visit my brother next door.. yeah the exhaust goes straight up but it has a cup over it..ive been pouring diesel fuel down the cylinders for about a month ones a week and i went today to try to move the flywheel but nothing. it seems very hard to move.. i will try tomorrow with your advice given and will post again with the results.. thanks for the quick reply i really appreciate it
How are you getting anything into the cylinders?? remove the injectors?? remove the glow plugs?? pouring it in the intake manifold??{I hope not} We need to know what kind of "old backhoe" you have?? Diesel fuel aint gonna cut nuthin.. You need ATF & Acetone mix.. & even that wont help if the motor is metal to metal locked up.. IF its just rusted stuck, atf solution should work.. & do as Delmer suggested.. big screwdriver on the flywheel.. Take it easy tho, you don't wanna start busting teeth off of it. How about getting a big socket & a breaker bar & turning the crank shaft.. that way you can rock it back & forth..
Hi.. its a gas engine and ive been pouring deisel fuel in the spark plug cylinders and having it soak.theres no room for me to get a breaker bar to turn the shaft. is there a way to determine the age of this backhoe sir. thanks
Well first off it would help to know what make and model it is. Once we know that much someone might be able to give an idea of whaere to look for a serial number that can be used to determine the age. Another good starting point would be if you could post a picture or two. Maybe one of the whole machine and another one or two closer up showing the engine. You say in reference to turning engine over "it seems very hard to move". Does this mean you have been able to turn it but it just turns hard or that it will not even budge a little? If you have tried turning it one way have you tried turning it the opposite way? Does it move even a slight amount? Now don't take offence at this next question but, is the transmission in neutral while trying to turn engine?
Good question Hansen.. Gas or diesel would have been nice to know from the git-go.. but now we know.. so lets move on. Still, the D fuel will lube the cylinders but {in my experience} wont cut rust.. go to the parts store & get some cheap old automatic transmission fluid{ATF} & some laquer thinner{acetone} mix 50/50 & dump it in the "spark plug" holes.. WAIT aday or 2 & try the screwdriver methode. & MAKE SURE its in neutral..lol You can google, JD serial # location.. & it should pull up all the places a sn tag might be.. Good luck.
Hello everyone, here is a couple of pictures. The backhoe is a Case 580 Model Number is 580CK and the serial number is - 8336576. i just purchased atf and acetone just mixed it like suggested and poured in the spark plug cylinders, how long and how much should i be pouring in Thank you.
hi no offence taken yes its in neutral when i use the pry bar its very hard to move flywheel it doesnt budge at all, also its a standard not automatic machine. very little room to work . thanks
Like the fancy number tags on the plug wires! Well if it is a standard transmission do you have something else that could move the Case? Just thinking about after you let some of the ATF/Acetone work on it for a few days put it in high gear with plugs out and give it a tug to see if it will turn over. Don't go crazy and try towing it at 40 miles an hour and then pop the clutch. I'd just try moving a few feet in each direction a couple times. Might want to put some paint on the flywheel teeth so you can tell if it turns any. Just don't have anyone standing near the plug side of the engine if it does break free all that stuff you put in the plug holes will come out like a rocket for a moon launch! Also beware that even if it does break free it may not run right if at all, rings could be stuck in pistons and cylinder walls rust pitted
Hi..i only have a 4x4 truck and both buckets are on the ground..when trying to move it to see if the flywheel moves does it have to be in gear or neutral. thanks
If trying to turn engine with pry bar on the flywheel the transmission should be in neutral just like when stating with the electric starter! Sorry if my comments caused any confusion!
no no you didnt cause any confusion i think i was asking should i try to pull the backhoe to try to free it up should it be in neutral or in gear im a one man show here no one to help me..thanks for replying i look forward to your answer
You could hook your 4wd in low range to something solid not something with hydraulics like the loader or hoe. The front frame is hollow and is the hydraulic reservoir so I wouldn't use that either. There is some thick steel underneath in the back if you can get behind it and pulling it backwards sounds like a better idea to me. It doesn't matter as much that the buckets are down going backwards unless they are teeth down. You don't need to move it much - you're just trying to break it loose. You will have to have it in gear for it to try and turn the engine. If you have it in neutral, it will move easier - but it won't help unstick the engine, will it? How did water get into the cylinders if the exhaust was covered? If enough water got in the cylinders, chances are good there is water in the bottom of the oil pan. Before cranking the engine over and pumping it through the engine, I'd loosen the drain plug a little and see what drips out. If there's water, it will show up first. I'd check the rear end drain plug the same way. Just loosen it enough to drip - you don't need to take it all the way out.
Good advise Grady..
If the engine is stuck that badly I would be taking the head off. I think it will be coming off anyway. Plus no damage is done prying on flywheel teeth or drive line parts trying to pull or push it to break it loose.
Hi.. Thanks for the reply i will try this...as for the water that is what i was told. The backhoe hasnt been started for a year. i pulled the dip stick out and the oil was clean but i will loosen the drain plug like suggested but only question i have is what about the diesel fuel i poured in spark plug cylinders would that come out to or just water first. Im not really mechanically inclined so i have to take advice or should i say listen to the mechanic that came here and diagnosed the machine so far right up to the day i joined the forum i have listened to his advice.. all the replys i have been getting and advice here is amazing and im learning quite a bit .thanks
Theres so much to take off to get to the heads. wheres its parked is another job..i think i have to do all the other advice given first and should it come to that it would have to wait until next summer..thanks for the reply
As for the "water in pan check" oil, engine oil or fuel oil are both lighter than water so the fist thing that will come out when the plug is loosened with be any water that may be in there. Now seeing it has been sitting for a year I would expect a little water from condensation as Ontario is not exactly a desert like climate and the freeze thaw of winter will cause some to get in to things. Also I'd be looking close and what comes out to see if it looks like antifreeze. Wish I/we could be more encouraging about this engine but the chances of having a good running engine after it is stuck from rust after sitting for a year is rather low. I might be tempted in using some kind of suction device to suck the stuff you poured in the cylinders out to see if there was in fact water in any of the cylinders. If you have an old five gallon bucket with a top and a shop vac of any kind do a search on this site for "suck bucket" there is a lot of reading about it but it would be an excellent tool for getting the liquid out of those cylinders. Very simple tool to make and very handy to have.
I think I'd try more of the ATF and acetone in the cylinders and then drain and replace the oil before trying to crank it over - just some cheap oil that I would drain again soon after getting it running if that ever happens. Sorry to say it but I'm also in with those who have their doubts about it just shrugging off being seized up. If it doesn't spring back to life, I'd drag it into a barn or build some kind of cover for it if you are going to try and repair the engine. I've seen pieces of equipment sit for a long time and start right up but the engine hadn't seized. Maybe the can on the exhaust blew off and was replaced later on? I use a 5 gallon bucket on the exhaust and secure a tarp over it if the machine lives outside. It's a PIA to cover and uncover every time you want to use it but it avoids the big problems like this. It doesn't take a year or more to have water get in your exhaust and ruin your engine, it can happen overnight. If water of any quantity gets into one or more cylinders and you try to - or even worse succeed at starting the motor - it's going to be trouble. Make sure you have the spark plugs out when you are trying to crank it or pull it if the cylinders are full of your rust buster potion.
Hi..thanks for the response and advice i appreciate it and to all who have been giving me there personal advice or should i say expertise.thanks
Hi Thanks for the advice i will do that within the next couple of days my firewood logs just arrived and yet another job. lol thanks again
Did you happen to pay close attention to the ends of the spark plugs when you took them out. A telltale sign of rust on the tip of the plug would tend to head you the cylinder or cylinders that may be stuck.
hi.. i didnt pay attention at all but, when i took them out i dont think i saw any rust on anyone of them..i think that is something i would of seen hmm. i guess its to late to see now what do you think..thanks
Maybe you could jack up a back wheel and you could use that to rock the engine. At least that would tell you if everything from the back to the engine is free. Clutch could be froze. Those old tractors had rubber boots over the shifters and crack over time allowing water to get into those compartments and freeze things up. At least you'd be narrowing down the possibilities.
Hi Grandpa..thanks for the advice raining really hard here right now all things come to a hault...we need the rain we have forest fires all around us 1 hour away from me..thanks again
With all the news about the fires in the western US I had not heard about those in Ontario! So I can only hope you keep getting the needed rain!
yes rain is needed here we had a down pour for a few hours..the fires has grown to over 11,000 hectares.
Well i had no luck turning the flywheel i wanted to take the oil plug out today to see if water came out first but i got side tracked also put the starter back on hoping maybe it would spin the flywheel and of course i couldnt remember how i took the wires off so i have to figure it out..i will keep all who answered posted..thanks again for the great advice
If you can't budge the flywheel with a screwdriver, how is the starter going to turn it? It won't.
That's what I was thinking, too. No sense putting it back together yet when it still needs to come apart more.
yes you are both right but i just wanted to see you never know. when i had the mechanic here it turned very little thats before i joined this forum his answer was its seized. also i took the drain plug out ..what came out didnt look like water..the question is would it be the diesel fuel ive been pouring in for a month every 3 days ..since last week i switced to atf and acetone also, when i pour the mix in each cylinder 3 cylinders takes the most and the 4th takes the least mix does this mean anything.. thanks
Most likely reason one cylinder takes more than another one would be one of two things. First is the one that takes the least is near the top of the cylinder. Second reason the one that takes the most may be leaking past the rings a little faster. I guess putting starter back on will only cost you your time so if you have time to give it a try why not. If you could post a picture of the starter it might be possible to explain how to hook up the wires. Make a note of how many wires there are and how big they are like are they as big as your thumb or the size of a 16 penny nail? A picture showing the wires migh also help even if starter is off.
Hi.. thanks for the replay i figured out the wires took awhile but i got..itook starter out again takes 5 minutes to remove starter...is there anything else i can try to free up the engine or should i just keep adding atf and acetone?? Thanks
Could also be the cylinder that takes the least is full of water also. Did you check to see if water was in any of the cylinders before adding any penetrant.
There's a few things that aren't adding up in my opinion. If the stuff that drained out of the oil pan didn't look like water, does that mean it didn't look like oil either? Get some on your hand, then run some drops of water over your hand, you'll know real quick if it's water or oil based. Same thing with the cylinders, dip a dried stick in there (like a piece of straw or old ragweed stalk) then see what level the liquid is and what level the piston is. Then dip that stick in water if you can't tell if it's water based or oil based gunk. The middle two pistons should be the same height, and the front and back should be the same height. All of the acetone should drain out of the cylinders overnight. Did the engine turn at all for the mechanic? how far and how did he turn it? Does the belt turn with the alternator and water pump if you turn the fan blade and belt by hand?
Okay guess it's the second time I need to write this out today. Earlier it was an old Yamaha XS650 and the steps re just about the same for this Case. Fist thing I would do is remove the valve cover may be a pain to get at but I really don't think anything at this point is going to be a five minute job that will result in any success. Once valve cover is off try wiggling the rocker arms to see if they both have some clearance on one cylinder this would indicate the valves are both closed and engine is on the compression stroke for that cylinder. Make a note of which cylinder it is and temporally set valve cover back on to keep dirt an such out of engine. Now you might need someone with a welder, brazing torch or a tap and die set. Take one of the spark plugs and without damaging the threaded part that goes in the head break the ceramic insulator out of it so you end up with the threads for the head and the hex part the wrench goes on. Now what is needed is to figure out how to get a pipe bushing with 1/8 female pipe threads securely connected to the part of the plug body the ceramic used to come out. This needs to be a strong and leak proof connection. I don't know what or who you have to deal with but you will have to figure it out at your end. If you manage to get that far next you need a good lever operated grease gun with a flexible hose on the end. Take off the end of the hose that would be used to connect to the grease fitting. Fill the cylinder that you noted the valves were both closed on with motor oil. Next screw that homemade adapter on the end of the grease gun hose and then screw it in to the plug hole in the head. Next if this is a used grease gun remove the cartridge that hold the grease and fill the body of the gun with motor oil. As long as you can hold the grease gun up so the oil doesn't spill no need to put the end on the with the spring and plunger that pushes the grease down the tube. Now pump the grease gun to force the oil into the cylinder. The oil pressure should easily push down on the piston to break it free. This assumes the valves are closed and no major leaks past the piston. Simple math will tell you if say this engine has a 4 inch bore you have approx 12.56 square inches of surface area on that piston top and if you can only get 1,000 psi pressure on the grease gun you will be putting 12,560 pounds of pressure on that piston and if it is a good grease gun it should be able to build up to 10,000 psi for a pressure on the piston of 125,600 pounds of force that's over 60 tons! If you do go this route and get it to turn the next part will be the messy part. You will need to crank that engine over to push out all the oil and other stuff you poured in the cylinders. And if you do it by hitting the starter be prepared for it to fly everywhere unless you have someway to contain it as it come out.
If I remember the CASE 580 correctly the hydraulic pump bolts onto the front of the crankshaft along with the pulley for the fan belt. You might be able to turn that drive shaft with a pipe wrench, don't over do it . Just try to make it turn a little each direction until the rust breaks free. If prying on the flywheel teeth hasn't moved it I don't know if you will have much success turning the other end. If you can use the suck bucket to clear the cylinders you might be able to look in the plug holes with some type of borescope camera. My son has a cheap one that uses his phones display. It works OK. Look for corrosion and rust in the cylinders. FYI like the suck bucket idea. I'll be building one real soon. I also like using hydraulic pressure to break the cylinder free. Great tips.
Hi..No i didnt.. i wish i was told this before from my mechanic..
Hi.. I think this is to complex for me i think i will try the easier stuff first it sure sounds like you know what you are talking about boy oh boy maybe i will do this but not right now..great advice.. thanks
Hi.. i have an old shop vac that i can use thanks
Hi.. the exhaust has a fixed flap on it.. i will make sure i remove spark plug and there alot of potion in there to...thanks
Hi no the engine didnt turn over at all i was told the solenoid was no good i bought one still didnt turn over.
Hi..when i pull out the oil dip stick theres no sign of water on it.. is that a good sign..
Is there any sign of anything on it? If kshansen's suggestion sounds too complicated, you could simplify it by just going to the hardware store or home depot and buying some threaded adapters that go from whatever size the spark plug thread is [like 14mm or 7/8 - 18, take your old one with you to the store] to whatever size your grease gun threads are. [take it, too] If you tell the guy at the store what you need on each end, they can figure out which ones you need. Then you just need to pump some oil through your grease gun. It isn't hard or complicated, it's basic and might just work. I'd give it a try if it was me. To determine which plug hole to pump the oil in, you need to figure out which cylinder has it's valves closed. To do it without pulling the valve cover, you could get some different adapters that will connect the same spark plug adapter to a tire type air valve like they use to blow out water lines, etc. Again, just ask the guy, that's what he's there for. That will allow you to use air pressure to determine which cylinder has it's valves closed so you will be able to build up pressure in it. If one of the intake or exhaust valves are open, the air will escape - either through the muffler or carb but if it's valves are closed, it should hold air pressure - at least temporarily - and that's the one to put the oil to. You also might be able to adapt one of those portable hydraulic hand pumps in place of a grease gun. I'd also pull that drain plug out and leave a drain pan under it to catch whatever drains through. You can put some fresh oil in if and when it breaks loose.
yes, it's a good sign if there was no water. So it doesn't turn one bit. Have you tried the screwdriver on the ring gear both directions? I forgot all about the hydraulic pump, check that along with the fan, alternator and water pump. You can just remove the belt if that's easier. And either loosen the hydraulic pump to see that it turns, or turn the shaft to see if it has enough play in the drive coupling that you can see the pump move but not the engine pulley. A couple different ways to go about Kshansens method. Use either the middle pair or the outer pair. The one on the compression stroke doesn't matter, choose the pair closer to the top, remove the pushrods of the pair you use. An airless paint sprayer, porta power, or tractor hydraulic outlet will also work, pressures vary.
Thanks.. i will try all this ..
motor oil would work, diesel might work.
I realize my method sounds complicated but actually all you need to do is find out which cylinder has the valves closed, the blow air in method is a good easy one if you have access to air pressure of some kind, then use something that can pump oil in under pressure. I did forget to mention the "suck bucket" but the message was getting a bit long already! Just don't make the mistake I did when I came up with this idea years ago for a stuck Mack Diesel. Only thing handy I had to produce the needed pressure was a air powered grease pump. If you think oil filled cylinder will make a mess how about filling a cylinder with #2 grease . Long story short that one did run but did use a little oil after freeing it up.
Hi..once i figure out which one is stuck what do i do next??thanks
Hi everyone...i was just going to apply air pressure to the cylinders but i decided to pull it in neutral i managed to pull it about 5 inches or so and said what the heck try the crow bar and guess what the fly wheel turned maybe 1 inch where as before i couldnt budge it at all , what should i be doing now..thanks
You are in a little over your head here but if you try to understand the concept of how an internal combustion engine works and what has happened to yours that makes it refuse to work, you would more easily grasp the concept of how to fix it. That said, we are proceeding under the understanding that the piston rings are seized to the cylinder walls - which they likely are but none of us know the history of the machine. Is this a machine you've had for years or did you get it in this condition? Was it running fine when it was parked? If so, and we are on the right track, it doesn't really matter which cylinder is seized or if all the cylinders are seized. They are all connected by the crank so pushing on any one will cause them all to move if that one moves. The only one you will be able to move with pressure like has been described above is the one(s) with the valves closed because if a valve is open even a little it won't hold pressure to push down on the piston and hopefully free up the stuck rings - wherever they are. These may be new concepts to you but try not to be overwhelmed because they are simple concepts. There are probably slow motion video simulations of how an engine works if a visual aid would help.
You replied while I was writing so I missed your last post. That's a good sign that it moved a little. I'd try prying it back the other way now. Make sure there is some atf or diesel or some kind of lube in all the cylinders and pull the drain plug so you don't pump that stuff through the motor. Then pry it back the other way again. You should gain a little each time you repeat.
Yep sort of like the instructions on the bottle of shampoo"lather rinse and repeat" In this case "Turn till it stops, top off the acetone/ATF, turn the other way till it stops" repeat till it don't stop! Actually the first thing I would do is if it is as far as it will go in one direction use some paint to mark it on flywheel through the starter hole then turn it the other way and again mark the flywheel through the starter hole. This will help you know if you are making progress.
Hi..I have had the machine for 10 years now everything was fine.when i parked still running great didnt need to use it so i parked it..this year i needed to use the machine this is what i encountered when i tried to start it. thanks
Hi.. ive been doing that for awhile now but still very hard to move.. i have a side bar on the machine protecting the engine and the pry bar only allows me to do very little becausel it hits this side bar.
Hello again..is there any way i can lift the front bucket up so i can try to move the machine to a workable work space..thanks
yes use a chain and run under corner of bucket connect behind bucket when tightens up will pull under bucket and raise it
thanks ..ok got it
Hi...i would like to know now that i have the flywheel spinning a bit how would i get all the diesel fuel atf and acetone out of the cylinders...thanks
Rock it back and forth till it goes around a few revolutions easily, put the starter back, run it five seconds with a fresh squirt of oil/atf, wait 5 minutes, repeat. then drain the oil pan, re fill and start.
Thank you very much
Go back to post #20 in this thread and you will see that question was already answered. To make it easy on you here i the key part of my post: If you have an old five gallon bucket with a top and a shop vac of any kind do a search on this site for " suck bucket " there is a lot of reading about it but it would be an excellent tool for getting the liquid out of those cylinders. Very simple tool to make and very handy to have. Just spinning the engine over will work but is not exactly environmentally friendly when working outside! And with all that acetone you've been dumping in there if the ignition system is working a stray spark could as they say "Light up your Life!"
Hi..well i havent starting spinning the engine yet..i will be using the suc bucket for sure makes more sense at least i will get a lot of liquid out ..thanks again
I would avoid using starting fluid in your attempt to get it running again. If you foul the plugs with whatever remains in the cylinders, put in a new set. A tune up isn't out of the question.
forgot to add, leave the plugs out until you try to start it. hope that was understood. I wouldn't bother with the suck bucket but that's me. Most will have drained into the pan.
Hi..Got it
Hi.. I think its due for a tune up
If there is any chance of getting a video of the first attempt to start I think it would be interesting to watch especially if it does start! You will be notifying "The Ministry of the Environment (MOE)" right?
Oh yeah.. the ministry was on top of the list..I havent tried to start it yet or did i attempt to remove the liquid in the cylinders...what i did was use a bottle jack did lift the front bucket as much it would go and got an old flag pole and another pole stuck it underneath the bucket and pulled the backhoe to a little better spot to work on..thanks