At our core, we are actually an engineering and mfg facility that serves other industries. In a recent discussion, we realized we may be able to deploy our structural and design engineering as well as advanced precision mfg to the construction equipment market. I have a few things, only from experience, that I want to see, but as a business, we always have to assess the cost, time, and market. IE, someone might want to see a gold plated cup holder in their mini ex, but I doubt the market would support that 'venture'....lol On the list, I was thinking of ways to improve machine cooling through ducting improvements, additional 'war' shields to fight damage in common areas, common replacement parts, etc. We don't get into 'heavy' capacity such as probably anything for a D11R. I just figured I might open to the floor a bit. I was mostly looking at items for the CTL type markets. However, I'm always vigilant of China. Being an OEM in other industries, it has been realized people think with their check book.
Only way to improve cooling in this day and age is to kick the bean counters to the curb, and build a cooling package that can keep the machine cool on the hottest day with it 2/3 plugged with trash, after the machine gets 10,000 hours. Hell, most of us would probably settle for if it could keep it cool with it 1/3 plugged.
It's not complex but have you thought about replacement sheet metal - doors, compartments, etc? OEM pricing for doors, panels and hinges are ridiculous. I need to replace the 2 rear engine compartment doors on my 953 due to the hinges rusting out and I don't even want to know what Cat wants for them. Not sure exactly what you produce so you might want to elaborate a little on that without giving away the company secrets.
Mostly just an example but boy have I seen some bad designs, including my own equipment. I think I was watching where a pro was adding some 'Bobcat kit' to one to try to resolve some engine intake drama. Almost like being in the dirt was never perceived.
We primarily do precision machining but being in aerospace, also get into forming. Think wing skins. I know how to do doors and panels but I might open that up to see if there is actual need? I can't imagine we could survive doing that, as in lack of actual demand, and volume dictates price, There is a LOT of design work and tooling that goes into a single hatch door. However, something like say the D series CAT excavators all use the same cab. I think the CAT CTLs are like that as well. If I can find commonality and real need, it's possible. But as far as ROPS cert, I doubt we will even touch that. But sometimes liability release and decals can cover that base.
How about gears for 40 year old dozer winches?
When we had our 730 champion grader. The local machine shop made side panels and doors for the engine compartment. They had rusted out. Did a great job. Just a flat panel with bends and cuts, no rounded corners. There also must be someone around making plastic replacement parts. They replaced the grill on the 150 Volvo loader. Rough looking up close. But better than the broken one
Lot's of work to make a gear. Try a specialty shop like Rush Gears, they specialize in reverse engineering: Welcome to rushgears.com - Nobody makes custom gears faster!!! Welcome to rushgears.com. We manufacture all types of gears and machine parts in just about any material to suit your needs. www.rushgears.com
I had a gear like that quoted on Rush gears, 20 years ago. It was over 3k back then!
The portal axles on our old Unimog (U1200) had a large outer roller bearing with no inner race....the shoulder of the large gear (the rollers rode on directly) became pitted and then a super expensive gear from Mercedes was required! Bad design; I changed out these bearings three times during our ownership as could not afford to replace the damaged/pitted gear.... finally sold unit. I was able to source the roller bearing fairly reasonable from SKF...
"You get what you pay for" Do you understand what it takes to reverse engineer and then build a gear like that ? Gear engineers are a different breed, I've worked with them.
As a pretty serious welder/machinist, I know what it takes to make a gear like that. Unfortunately, the price, will usually total whatever it is that the gear goes in. What was interesting, back in the day, the price for that gear was charged in months. If I remember correctly, it was like 500 bucks for a 9 month lead time, to 1200 bucks for 6 month and increased accordingly, up to 3k for a 2 week lead time. This was for a pressure feed, power roller for a Stenner Resaw and I ended up retooling it for a different feed roller with a Freq drive.
I think reversing can be anywhere between "roughly copy the shape", all the way down to a full metallurgical and forensic failure mode analysis. We use do to some gearing for high performance transmissions in which we have to first learn the OEM composition and case thickness to determine ultimate capacity, then go to work improving things. Gearing done right requires specialized hobbing equipment, but gear profiles usually follow normal standards. The alloy selection as well as the casing is critical. I explain gears as "M&Ms". Hard crunchy outer layer with a soft center. There is a LOT of deciding in both the case hardness and thickness to get good wear resistance but enough ductility to not propagate cracks. In general, a lower carbon alloy is selected, like 8620, then a carbon rich heat treat environment such are carborizing with very specific time/temp to achieve the results. It's very critical. We do inhouse heat treat to save time, but we don't do big volumes. through hardening a gear "might" work for some time on the cheap, but not ideal for high cycle life. Something like 4140 treated and tempered back to say HRC50 is a decent balance.
How much to make the gear pictured above ?
I know nothing about it! Even with rough dims, it gets tricky.
More than $3k ?
Is it 2" in diameter or 200"? Part of the issue is needing qty ONE! I can't imagine there is not a salvage one somewhere. What I'd be curious about is what a customer would expect to pay AND what Rush might quote today.
4.683" approx outer diameter, 1.5" thick. Cost is no object, Doug is paying for it
Just a total spitball here but depending on what that "bore" even was, I think around $3k is probably in range. You have to consider the testing, programming, machining, heat treating, inspection, etc. And possibly a second one for $1000 more.
If the access door hinges on equipment are rusted but the doors are still decent could cut off the hinges and weld on stainless hinges or make HD hinges out of pipe and round bar like removable does have?
The bore was just smooth, with a bearing pressed in. Here's what the other, undamaged gear looks like
That's very helpful! Very much in our wheelhouse. I'm actually taking that up the ladder a bit, but curious if this is a common situation? Like need a straight gear you can't buy? At least in that case, it looks like the Torrington left the chat but the gear was not overloaded? But the rest survived?
I don't know how common it is. Here's a little back story, and my plans for repair of this gear. I haven't investigated getting a used gear yet, but haven't been able to find anything available new. This gear, it's bearing and shaft seem to be the only casualties. There are some ball bearings that I will replace also but they are readily available. The winch didn't work when I bought the dozer and the previous owner told me that the noise coming from the winch area was normal (the shaft turns anytime the engine is running). HeavyEquipmentForums
I'm thinking of things that are in all machines. First one that comes to mind are heavy duty seat suspension systems. A premium seat that will last more than a couple of years for a big person would be considered by large mining or construction companies. Another idea might be an aftermarket gauge package that could be installed over dead electronic packages. At the dealer levels I've worked at we custom build screens and guards for door all the time. Lots of excavators get swivel guards put in the car bodies. We also had a guy building rock guards for excavators all the time. He did so many he hit an early grave. I'll try to come up with some more.
Appreciate the thoughts John! I know you have the experience. The seat was interesting because I too have chased that in the world. Like $10k just to get a decent seat! But also realize they are all so different, with so many flavors needed in industry. A CAT seat won't work in a Deere, etc. I would appreciate your deep thought.
Most use some kind of bolt pattern to sit on a floor. Maybe an idea might be instead of building the seat frame, maybe design an adapter plate and then approach the seat manufacturers about providing the solution for putting a Cat seat in a Deere. Another idea I've had was some kind of blue tooth camera that could use a magnet mount and put the camera anywhere on the machine. Pair it with your cell phone and a suction cup mount and put that anywhere in the cab. Think of how much damage you see on the sides of machines because of working close to something the operator couldn't see. Put the camera on the boom for seeing overhead obstructions. Mount it on the stick to see inside a trench. How about on a grader blade when running a critical grade or pulling road shoulders.
IIRC AgCam made just such a device.
Ha, I followed along in your repair thread and will drop a machining reply in there. However, it honestly does sort of point to something I have to be mindful of, which is "any" price other than free may not be acceptable to some folks with backyard or private use machines. Or maybe just plenty of time. I recall some questions from people years ago I know that have a printing company and they have some sort of Italian machines that you simply can't get parts for. I guess it stood out a bit because many Deere and CAT machines, you can get parts going back a LONG ways, making the whole reverse engineer, design, setup to make ONE, sort of non-starter.
There definitely is a difference in what someone is willing to pay for parts for a hobby machine vs a daily use money making machine. If this was a machine that I counted on for making money every day, I would have a different approach and the budget would be a lot bigger.
Why wouldn't you just machine the center oversize. Then put in a sleeve and new bearing? Am I missing something?
That's what I'm attempting. See linked thread above for progress.
Thanks for the heads up. Good luck with the repair
Yeah mainly because of nonsense. That pictured gear should nowadays only cost $800. max. Being a spur gear that is great for a wire EDM. And yes the sheet metal stuff is always crazy high priced. A fancy gear can cost less than say a hood for a D155 dozer, and I suppose cat is super crazy high.
Being familiar with both the equipment types for something like that gear, and the business side of operations, I'd be quite interested if ANYONE can get that done for $800! Some just don't understand the machinery, operation, and consumable costs in that. But it does speak to why we don't really do one off parts and stick to B2B primarily. We're certainly not the only shop to get approached by Bob the Harley rider that is complaining about the $500 engine cover and wants to see if we can make him qty1 cheaper.....
EDM....I can make one on my plasma table....$100 max....
Let me know when it's ready, I'll pay in full after it's held up to a week of hard work
My ass! The majority of the cost is lead time and retooling. Wire EDM still cost money, those Cad Cam or other programs don’t come cheap.
I would say in general, in the mfg world, it can really be hard to get qty1 to ever pencil out. Thus why, depending on who is asking, we will just 'no quote' rather than give some number that will seem insulting and will never be accepted anyway. Even on something like EDM, that is an extremely long running process, but still have CAD/CAM, heat treat, and inspection, possibly even post deburr and finish, not to mention the paper pushing. A company can easily have 8 hours in that, and that is before any consumable or burden costs.