How do you guys feel about operating schools? I've heard both sides of the story from guys I've spoken to. Some say it's good especcially if you have never been in machine before. Others say it's not worth the money it costs, (up here in Canada minimium $10,000 and that's just for excavator) and some contractors say you may develop bad operating habits. What are your guys thoughts and experience?
most don't teach you real world skillz
I've had friends approach me with the same question. I've always said find a contractor who needs a laborer to help out and will let you get into equipment when a good learning project presents itself and you can't get into much trouble. This way you are learning, and making some money. $10,000 is a lot of money to spend if you really don't know what you are getting, takes a lot of time to make that back up. Good luck in whatever you decide. Trbo But if you want to pay $10,000 to learn some basics on an excavator I will gladly show you on ours.
ha ha thanks for the offer. But I need an offer like that up in British Columbia.
Come on over here to Edmonton... I'll teach you exactly what they will teach you in school. I went to Sir Sandford Fleming College for heavy equipment operating in 2003 when I got out of high school. I was told if I wanted to join the union I needed that to get my foot in the door. I already had a good amount of seat time in backhoes, excavators, dozers and wheel loaders before I went. I spent my first week in class hearing them go on and on about seatbelts, doing a 2hr walk around my machine. Once they finally let us in the equipment I took off in their backhoe..... I managed to go an entire 5 minutes before getting in trouble. I wanted to see what their Case 580E was like... I wanted to play with the extendahoe... oops they had a lockout pin in it. I learned when I was young that with a case you just swing the boom completely off to the side stand up in the cab and pull the pin. That was a BIG no no for them, as was using the extendahoe because they hadn't taught us the proper way to push a pedal. Out of the 600 or so hrs of actual seat time you get between their backhoes, excavators, bulldozers, motor graders and wheel loaders I spent a good chunk of my time getting yelled at by instructors for my already bad habits and doing things that are acceptable in industry but not acceptable in a school. I got reamed out for 10 minutes one day for taking the excavator putting the bucket down swinging to turn my tracks. I have looked around some of the schools other than the one I went to and I have found most of them don't teach you much of anything that you could learn in one afternoon. I have a fairly low opinion of most of the schools because I have been to one, and I have looked at about 9 different others before I went. BUT if you are going to go to one.... I would seriously consider Sir Sandford Fleming. They do have a good course, its a bit uptight, but unlike most schools its not all book time. And their instructors actually have a clue in whats going on. They just push that pesky safety thing. If you need more info, you can PM me.
I went to A.T.S. in Florida to learn. I will admit, they showed me alot of ways to grade, but I learned alot more after getting my job. It was nice to get the certification though! The main reason I went was because nobody in my area would let me have a job without any experience. I enjoyed the school, never thought it was a waste of money though. Met a lot of interesting people from all of over the U.S., and made good friends. Like you said some will say it is a waste and some won't. It's up too you, and only you!
See and that's my problem. Nobody wants to hire me on an excacavator because I don't have much experience on one. Everyone says they're so short operators. But then when you go to them for a job and ask them to train you and give you a chance they aren't interested. And I can't afford operator school. It's so frusturating. How can one get experience on an excavator when nobody wants anyone on an excavator who has very little experience. It's about as ridiculous as it sounds.
No offense, but it seems to me your looking at going at this without paying your dues. You have to learn somewhere. Is the school going to teach you, no it wont. Will it help, it can, depending on the school, and what you want to get out of it. Just like N.CarolinaDozer, I went to ATS. I just went to the one in Ohio. I could make a machine move before that. Was a little better after. What i really learned was site layout. I was hired directly out of ATS. Class ended at 11am on friday, at 1pm friday, i was on the job. Did i go out to the field and run excavator, no, hell, i didnt even get to run a dozer, which was the machine i was most capable on. I was given the keys for a Cat 815, an Ingersoll Rand Smooth drum, a can of paint, a rule, and a level. Those were my machines for the better part of a year. The rule, level and paint can being the ones I ran most. I hated every minute of it. But i learned more doing that than i could learn any other way. The key is paying attention on the ground. I watched the scrapers for a while, but i spent most of my grade checking time watching and working with the finish dozer operator. He cant do the job without me, i cant do the job without him. I watched to see how he would tackle the job. I asked all sorts of questions. My last 6 months with that company, he would get off the dozer, tell me, "run this while i go to the bathroom" When he came back he picked up the level, rule, and paint can. That man taught me more about operating than anything else would have. You cant just go out and jump on a machine. No one is going to give you a chance. You need to earn that spot. Not because its the way it should be. Rather, think about the business. Average proft for excavation contractors is somewhere around 1-2%. Couple that with insurance, fuel costs, and production rates, you cannot afford to throw someone in a machine and say here you go. If you mess something up, it could be all over for that company. If you are not able to put out the numbers they figured for, they are losing money. If they can afford the loss of putting a new guy in a machine, I would like to know how they bid the jobs. Competition around here is so tight one slip up in bidding can put a company over just like that
Yeah I totally agree! Out of A.T.S., I started on a vibratory roller, than a scraper, then finally a dozer. But I learned alot from watching and asking questions all the time. I was lucky to have our fine grade operator, take me under his wing, a show me alot. He really could tell I wanted to learn. We get a lot of guys to come in and say they have ten years experience, and are not worth a crap! Two years ago I started on that roller, and now I fine grade with my dozer, and now even a motorgrader. So it can be done! I told my boss when he hired me that I went to school and still needed to learn. And he told me not long ago he has more respect for me because I was honest and didn't come in and lie about my experience. I've really moved up quick, and I feel i may be able to have a foreman job in the next five years, I hope!
Oh, and Turbo, glad to see someone else went to A.T.S. on here. Been meaning to ask around, to see who went there. Wonder if anyone went to the Florida school, I was at?
Yes, i was fortunate that my finish dozer man took me under his wing. While he didnt give all his tricks away, he did help me a lot. I went from roller, to scraper, to running a D7 pushing scrapers. I would also run excavator when we had one. In fact towards the end of my time with the company i was told in the morning there is an excavator sitting here, i need to be there at 7, trucks will be there at 7:15. That says a lot, a young guy, given the responsibility of being on a job himself, managing trucks. If i needed less, i signed them out, if i needed more, i called dispatch. After I left that company, to move closer to home, i went to work for a company that did mostly pipe work. I was the only operator that could finish grade. I did all their street grading. Went into the demo end of the business. Now that the economy is in the crapper here im back to looking for work out of state. This time I think im going to stay out of state for good
We sound about the same! We are pretty busy here! Our main customer is Wal-Mart, but our crew is doing a wideing job for the NCDOT. Come to N.C., plenty of work here!
I left out a few things in my original post... but I didn't feel like making it a novel. While I didn't get a ton about actual operating out of the school I went to, I did get to learn more about general excavation and grading that I didn't learn with our family business of concrete work. I could dig a mean set of footings when I went there.... but when it came to basements, road grading and cutting grade for a sewer... I was clueless. I got some great experiences from that college, and I did graduate with the highest marks for the year. I was also the youngest guy in the course by a long shot. I was still wet behind the ears when I was there, most of the guys were in their mid 30's and early 40's. When I was done, I went back to the family business ran backhoe for awhile and then got a job as a labourer/backhoe operator. I spent most of my time in the hoe.... but I learned a ton. I spent a year and a half working for that small company and I learned a lot about the industry and upgraded to another company where I was a fulltime operator running backhoe, excavator and grading parking lots and floors with a Cat 257MTL. I worked for Scott for about a year and a half until he went bankrupt due to a serious drinking problem. I moved out here to Alberta and got hitched up with Sureway Construction. I am now a fulltime operator running just about everything. When I moved out here I had almost no experience on larger equipment but anytime a foreman asked me if I wanted to fill in for someone on a larger machine I took it. In less than 8 months I got experience on a couple D10's, 385's and Komatsu PC1250's, a 988 wheel loader and some different rock trucks. I have always tried to be the jack of all trades but now I have been sentenced to backfill. I don't know what the economic situation is like in BC right now for work Jon... but Edmonton is killing for operators. Sureway is gearing up for the season right now. If you applied with us I'm sure you could get on something like a Dynapac or a Discing tractor. Most of our guys are pretty good about letting people fool around with equipment at lunchtime.
Here it is
the market in the uk is slowing down right now dont you think? no amount of training will get you a job in the north west, everyone is laying off! i hope sussex is better rob?
by the way, nice duck.
Hi Wildy, No cant say I agree, but again I am not looking if you know what I mean. If a good op cant get a seat this time of year he has no chance of getting a seat You might need to travel ( I dont go tooooooo far now ) even a fairly green op should find a seat this time of year. Travelling isn't for everybody I agree, but I believe it is a very good, if not steep learning curve for any op who really wants to learn. Thanks for the positive duck comments. You must have been checking the web site
i took an operating school here in NS it was $8,900 learned exc.,dozer,backhoe,frontend loader, and forklift so got trainning and certificates for.. standard first aid and cpr transportation of dangerous goods safe trenching h2s alive occupational health and saftey cooling systems luberaction systems air systems fuel systems hydraulic systems desel engines traffic control whimis fire extinguisher fall arrest safe rigging for hoisting air brake endorsement it was a 15 week course not very long thats for sure. but you spend 7 weeks in the class room getting all that stuff i just listed off. then you get 4 weeks out on the machines and then you have another 4 weeks on the job training with an employer. its a whole new game then but after the classroom we had a good idea what its gonna be like. when i was on my job training there was a guy working there that took a different course and a guy that has over 40 years in the exc. alone. i found out after i had left that even tho i had less seat time in the exc. then the other guy from the other course. i was a way better operator well i was on the the job. my instructor showed up to see how i was making out one day, and the other guys that have been running gear all thier lives told my instructor right in front of me "whatever your teaching them in that course its working". i think thats cause the 2 instructors we had were also owner/operators all thier lives, and it shows. but yeah theres lots of courses out there that you might was well just just take the $10,000 and throw it in the trash. but this one course was put on by the NSCC collages and it was a good one. the only thing i wish they had were some dumptrucks. other then that it was a very good course to learn your basics. we did alot of trenching, foundations and basic fire road buliding even some DOT road biulding and tree clearing and lots of other things from telling apart different soils. to picking up little rocks with a 210 sized exc. and not getting any dirt in the bucket with it. we had alot about basic machine maintenance. Burnout that sucks you got reamed at all that time we were told to read the machine manual and learn what it can do. we were yelled it if we didnt lift the tracks to turn the machine like you should do. we were tought how to travle with the gear the rigth way aswell. we had a thumb on one exc. but they wanted us to learn to pick things up without using it cause not every machine has a thumb. if we did something stupid we got to walk back to the shed about 1km away and then jog back and we had to do it fast. if we did something that was bad enough we got yelled at as well as the walk/run and we got to clean the tracks out of 8 mahcines alone at the end of the day. or we would just get the boot off the machine and someone else took it over and a good chance we would fail if it was for doing something that could hurt someone or badly damage a machine.
Any good school should have some qualities of a boot camp. Hated the 3 months at Parris island but it was the best thing about my life next to getting married. Got the punk ran and sweated out then the wife house broke me.
Pesky little thing called safety? I must say that I am an instructor at one of those "not worth the cost" heavy equipment shcools. Granted every thing encountered in the real world cannot be covered in the length of a class. Some of you guys have spent a lifetime developing your skills and becoming profesionals. You must admit that there are still some days that bring new and challenging situations. Our classes are custom to the customer. From 8hr OSHA compliance classes to 32hr refreshers, to a 160 hr machine specific class. Safety is a very large part of our construction world, whether we all like it or not. OSHA, MSHA and all the other guys will never run out of citation books, so we might as well comply. I'll be the first to agree that a lot of it is overkill, but so is the Income Tax system. I would love to have at least one day pass that I do not get an e-mail or news paper clipping or video of some of our brother operators being injured or killed by doing something unsafe or stupid. School or No School, that is up to the individual. Some schools are less that desirable just as we hear of those contractors that don't do a very good job. Please be SAFE in any case.
The army has the best training school for equipment. Use the governments diesel, and NEVER hear about fuel prices while doing so. Go army! :usa
You might want to think about that statement, because it is YOUR diesel that you are burning. Or maybe you have yet to see what taxes really are. Then again, with being a super shovel operator in a stone operation and all the over time you get, you know about taxes
Id rather run equipment in the civillian world over the army. Civillian world pays ALOT more $$ and you're not getting shot at and hitting IEDs. just my opinion.
do you have a link to your school's website? thanks!
I dont understand why anyone would pay for heavy equipment school when they could get into the union apprenticeship!! I got into the union apprenticeship in 2001 at which time I never ran anything, I went to work as an oiler got paid quite well auctually!!! and learned to run equipment. Several of my buddies went to penn college which is part of penn state for heavy equipment and learned nothing, after not being able to get a job they joined the apprenticeship! I think joining the union is the best thing I have ever done I'v been working pipeline and I'm never out of work I have contractors calling me all of the time its just a matter of where I want to work!!!
If they had a web site id give it to ya but they dont have one as far as i know sorry about that
out here we dont have union apprenticeship really as far as i know not here where i am anyways and the gov. says we need to have the paper work now so that means the schools and when we get done well as far as me anyways its been almost a year that i have been outta work cause i dont have the time in the machine to be worth hiring but i cant get the time unless i have a job so im $10,000 in the hole and no money to pay it :Banghead and im to be good to be a labour:wierdt
Schools I've hired some of the young operators from these schools and really had to start them from scratch. Found very little knowledge of operating, no skills in staking or even understanding them. Also no knowledge of GPS or Laser. Was really disturbed how little these boys were taught for the cost of the school. The one plus factor was really good young men and bright enough to understand things without telling them ten times over. Would recommend those schools to go to the contractors and get some really good advice on the skills needed for field operations. Just my 2 cents.
Laser and GPS? in 15 weeks. Do you realize: About half of the students coming into these programs have never even drove a car with a standard transmission. Most have never changed an air filter. or even seen an air or oil filter except in television commercials. Good luck with that..... Schools can't get anyone from industry to participate in advisory committees... "too busy" is all they hear.... and then complaints... it's unfair really It's an industry that plans 6 months into the future. Nothing else like it. Total chaos as a business model... the norm There's a lot of advice in this thread that the schools hear a lot of, but the reality of this game is that they are trying to produce a safe, employable, entry level employee. If a government operated school, they must accept all comers on a first come first served basis. They will spend a lot of time teaching people how to work a clutch and what fluids go in what compartment. Laser and GPS would not be a priority. It's 15 weeks...and sometimes it rains like mad.... I actually think 15 weeks could be too long without a continuing program to jump into with an employer upon completion... I think industry should implement their own apprenticeship program just as it does on the mechanic side. It actually does exist on paper, but no one from industry has bothered to use it. That would require some investment of time and lord help us maybe their money... the "m" word..... Schools have to be strict on safety. More so than ANY job site. Picture a dozen 18 year olds behind the controls of the iron. Put yourself in the position of field instructor. What ground rules will you lay out? Keep in mind, you have been told: The first serious injury on our campus, we are all fired, and this school is CLOSED FOREVER. There isn't a government run program anywhere that would be open after a fatality. Are you gonna have some cowboy tell you he can do this and that because he's run his daddy's tractor on the farm?..... yeah right.... if a student is just going for the certificate, they are going to have to exercise a lot of patience. Some experienced students can take a mentoring role with some of the less experienced students and that would help them stay busy and experience what they will probably be spending much of their career doing (on the job training) if they are actually "naturals". I think the schools will be the only option in the future, and industry needs to get organized and help them out. Employers want a base level of safety training, and they want to see the student's commitment to something, and the school can give that. Unfortunately, there will always be a number of chronically unemployable kids in these programs who are only there because mom has paid the $7000 as a last resort attempt to get young Billy out of her basement....but a few of these lost causes actually do make a turn around... not all... maybe not even half....but some... there are a lot of success stories out there. Funny, on the mechanic side of training, the students spend probably 60 weeks in school and then they are hired to BEGIN an apprenticeship. Why is industry so patient and willing to invest in a mechanic, but not an operator? Colleges and Votechs have had a successful relationship with the heavy equipment repair industry through the AED and CAED in North America for decades. I can't say I've ever heard much of a complaint on that side about the entry level graduates.
I'd second that - one hurdle is the waiting list.. I think someone applying now would be looking at late 2009 or maybe even 2010 start date. But that says something I suppose.
I took the course cost me 10 grand but i did learn alot from it
training WhyWhyZed, :drinkup :thumbsup Dont give up, on us or the training. We need people like you to highlight the problems that you face. Many of us are to quick to criticise without thinking through the problems. I agree the industry is a tight *ss, spending money to train feels like flushing it away, but we have to change. Darn, another unintentional pun :Banghead
You are pretty good with the puns...:salute
I have 28 years experience trucking and have trained 6 guys to pass their Class 1 drivers licence. They rode with me for a month and were paid for their training. They were safe able operators after. I took an 8 week course at Interior Heavy Equipment School in B.C. which had 2 hours classroom and 5 hours in your own machine each day. 5 months after graduating I am still looking. I don't expect to get in an excavator right away. Am hoping to get on driving dump truck soon with a small company ( 2 employees and owner). He also has equipment such as small dozer, excavator, scraper, rock truck and loader. Some companies said they would train, small outfits came out and said they had no time to babysit. There are jobs in the paper every week looking for experienced operators. Maybe they are hoping they will appear out of thin air! Canada is making the immigration laws easier so that companies can import workers from other countries. This doesn't make sense to me.
Hey tootalltimmy; What did you think about That school you went to?Was it good or bad or a waste of time? Do you need to be certified in B.C. or is it supposed to help in getting a job? Was it expensive in your opinion or worth the money if you land a job after you finish? I would like to know since I went to a similar school about 15 years ago! :drinkup
I thought that it was good. Lots of safety stressed. Obviously it doesn't make you an operator but it gives you a good start. It was expensive but fuel costs, repairs, salaries, etc are expensive. The last two days I ran a 160 size Komatsu with 170 hours on it. They had Hitachi 60 up to Hitachi 350. Only one Cat 320. We had our oiwn machine 5 hours each day.
On the job training is the way to go. usually you learn the controls with a compaction wheel then you put a bucket on on,move some dirtand finally get to digging some trenches. Atleast thats how I learned. Good luck to you
Learn on the job if you can. But if you don't have a family business, it's hard to get someone to give you seat time if you don't have any experience. they give you the insurance blah blah blah story all the time. it sucks.
I am starting a job next week driving gravel truck. We will load ourselves with loader or excavator so there will be some seat time. I'll take what I can get. It is hard to get started around here. Here is a couple pictures of the school classroom.
I'm from the Highlands in Scotland ,been on construction plant since i was 17 yrs of age,back in 1981 to be exact.I used to work in a peat factory where they had a, Hanomag 44c loading shovel ,Hymac 580D , couple of forklifts ,dumper trucks this shows you how long ago this was .I started off just laboring,the boss and really got on well together ,(we used to do a bit of hunting ,i even got paid for it,pissed the other guys off no end. ) Anyways ,i'd been working there for abt 6 months or so,having just little shots of the machines here and there.Then one monday morning the boss came up to me ,handed a book to me ,i thought ,mmm,strange ,it was the manual for the Hymac 580D,he said have a read of it and he'll get back to me the next day.Arrived at work next day ,was told to go wi the guy who drives the lowloader .When we arrived at the job the boss was there waiting for me.He then announced that he wanted me to operate the 580D .He gave me a quick crash course on the do's n don'ts ,and that was me for the next 11 months ,digging out hill roads for the peat fields ,And that folks is how i learned to operate 360s ,left to my own devises ,learn from my many mistakes ,and i reckon it's the best way .Just my opinion ..
I will be going to ATS this spring, i am taking the class through the marine corps so it was free for me, and its basically just a way for me to get a head start on the rest of my peers, even if i decide to do an apprenticeship. And im starting to see more and more closed doors to beginners. I was also looking into NAHETS college of construction in Oklahoma mostly for the crane portion. Has anyone heard of the course, or been through it? thanks!:usa
Where to start??? safety is now the majority part of our job every bit as much as using the traveller, profiles,timesheets, stone dockets, etc etc.What is the cost of the loss of a digit or limb ??,definitely if you get the operators as a clean sheet and train them from the get go in the safety proceedures and operation of the plant that their running it may save someone sometime. Its a good day when you can put on your boots and a great day when you can take them off yourself at the end of the day. To be honest I am operating plant for more years than I care to remember ,now I suffer from tinatus, have damaged hearing, have scars from operating bad plant ,scars from repairing it sore knees from the wet and cold (no heaters etc. Now days, most of the new breed want to know what stereo is fitted ,annoying, but I will wear it would not want to go back to the old days ,anyway after all these years I still find myself watching other operators to see if they have anything I can learn ,as for training I have signed up for a couple of courses to do over the christmas ,as well as the part time course I attend every week to get my management diploma , It's a changing world and interesting times we live in and training and certification is the way forward where ever you get it .
Well Im 21 yr old drop out I have been running front end loaders skid steers backhoes sence i was 16 I have no schooling in it. I first got my job as a ground man picking up crap all day, one day I said to hell with it and got in a machine and starting running it was hard at first but i did it man did i get my ass chewed real good almost got fired but today im one of the best operators there. just get in learn it go with the flow. I am the only loader op that can pick a car off a trailer from the bottom with no wheels and not even touch the trailer. Wheel loader is a good start then move to a backhoe or a skidsteer if you can run all 3 with ease you can run a excavator.
DONT EVER PUT YOURSELF DOWN, yes capitals means shouting. First, Thanks for being honest, and congratulations on managing to get on in life and the saddle Health & safety wont allow me to comment on your proggression to the said saddle, but well done. ( HSE REG Follow ) It is not recommended for untrained personnel to operate mechanical quipment ! :beatsme If you find yourself in the enviroment where you think it would be beneficiale to yourself and the company (either or both) to benefit from the chance of yourself being let loose with a set piece of equipment! ASK SOMEBODY ! That way at least you will get SOME guidance and hopefully dont put your supervisors job in jepurdy!
Is the gi bill covering it for you?
Yes I contacted the VA and they said that the new GI Bill will certainly cover the cost and the training institute said they will likely be able to recieve it as well. Im sure if they have money in hand there will be no arguement on thier end. I am doing two different schools, one is National trucking out of florida where i will get a beginner operating cert. and CDL (this is paid for by the military because i did the class as distance education while on active duty), and the other is by NAHETs in Oklahoma where i will get my three tiers of "operators levels" and my NCCCO crane certification as well. (covered by the GI Bill) Hope that answers your question ohioduramax :usa
Reason im asking is because im in the reserves and was supposed to go to a school just like you are doing. Then i Got back from all my military training just to find out they would only pay $954 of it. So I dropped out of that school and paid my duramax off instead. I got screwed over pretty bad there, signed up and planned on using the gi bill just to find out I couldnt. Now im a first year union apprentice that only worked 352 hours this year and im laid off for the winter. And im supposed to get the gi bill for being in an apprenticeship, I applied 6 months ago but ill probably never see a penny.
Sorry to hear that. I was thinking of trying to get on with the local 18 in columbus, any advise.
I hope your ready to be a oiler on a crane cuz thats what most of the first year apprentices are doing in ohio from what Ive seen. Be ready to travel up to 3 hours or so one way to get to work. Have another source of income too because It was august before I went out to work and I only worked 10 part time weeks. Some apprentices didnt go out to work at all this year.
Thanks for the advise. Do you have any idea about this summer. I looked on their website and they are still going to take applications this year. Hope all goes well.
they don't call them "Diesel Dummy" schools for nothin.
I havent really heard anything about next year. Im hoping its a better year, diesel is half the price of what it was last summer. Im not in the apprenticeship anymore.
Im not in your local, 18? But im pretty sure you guys are in the same boat as 324. Crappy economy has really kicked our work in the butt. But we keep adding more apprentices. Lets be honest, we dont need them today, but in few more years we are going to need lots of people to fill the seats. Our average age is 48 years old. That tells you what kind of position we are in. Unfortunately, the apprentices I have seen lately are not worth a damn penny.
Hi there, Did you end up going to a school? I am currently enrolled at Taylor Pro Heavy Equipment Training in Kelowna and it is quite different than you might expect reading some of these posts. We are working with laser and gps in the second week of the 7 week course, and I feel I am learning some great real world skills. So far I would recommend it for sure, although I have no idea if it will lead to a job or not.