Has any one dealt with OSHA excavation regulations when relating to solid frost? I have an excavation that was opened in the fall of last year and was left open. It has been exposed to freezing weather for three months. Can this be considered solid rock?
If a chunk of frozen soil breaks off and hurts somebody, I´m pretty sure that the lawyers won´t be calling it 'solid rock'. CYA.
Classification of soil and rock deposits. Each soil and rock deposit shall be classified by a competent person as Stable Rock, Type A, Type B, or Type C in accordance with the definitions set forth in 29 CFR 1926 Subpart P Appendix A. Basis of classification. The classification of the deposits shall be made based on the results of at least one visual and at least one manual analysis. Such analyses shall be conducted by a competent person using tests described in 29 CFR 1926 Subpart P Appendix A, or in other recognized methods of soil classification and testing such as those adopted by the American Society for Testing Materials, or the U.S. Department of Agriculture textural classification system. Visual and manual analyses. The visual and manual analyses, such as those noted as being acceptable in 29 CFR 1926 Subpart P Appendix A, shall be designed and conducted to provide sufficient quantitative and qualitative information as may be necessary to identify properly the properties, factors, and conditions affecting the classification of the deposits. Layered systems. In a layered system, the system shall be classified in accordance with its weakest layer. However, each layer may be classified individually where a more stable layer lies under a less stable layer. Reclassification. If, after classifying a deposit, the properties, factors, or conditions affecting its classification change in any way, the changes shall be evaluated by a competent person. The deposit shall be reclassified as necessary to reflect the changed circumstances. This is from OSHA site.
i can read the osha law, but it doesn't make any reference to frost. i am not asking for speculation. i am interested in knowing if anyone has had actual experience with osha on this issue or has osha written any opinions on frost.
Does frost matter to osha or the cornner? If you get a warm day and the ditch caves, i don't think saying that it was frozen that morning will make any difference at all.
We don't get warm days in north dakota. I am not concerned about that. Additionally the job i am looking at will be a one day project with frost the full depth of the excavation. My question is still has anyone dealt directly with OSHA or read any OSHA decisions concerning frost?
If it's over 4 feet deep, why take the chance that something could go wrong?
Because he might save some $$$ It might just be me but the OP comes off as a real pr*ck in many of his post, but I'm just speculating here. I would tend to think if the excavation was save last year and it hasn't eroded to badly it would still be safe today. Thats the kind of call that has to be made in person. Hence the " Reclassification. If, after classifying a deposit, the properties, factors, or conditions affecting its classification change in any way, the changes shall be evaluated by a competent person. The deposit shall be reclassified as necessary to reflect the changed circumstances. " But we have established you can read already.
Why don't you just call your local OSHA rep and ask them instead of getting on someones case when they gave you the best information they could get? And asking a question like that on here shouldn't get answered anyways because if someone does give you information and you act on it and someone gets hurt from it, it could cause them serious problems.
Excellent answer!
this one may be getting away from you i tend to agree with the group here. 1- why ask a question that you may not want to here the answer too? 2-why jump down other's peoples throat's for trying to help 3-if is frozen earth- then what will the osha guy tell you?? my knowledge would tell me anything after 4' i have to bench or box. it would also tell me that if it is dirt then treat it like dirt- frost is not rock. it may seem like it to all of us that work in it but put yourself in the osha guy's boots. think how he thinks. better yet. if you are worried about it call your risk manager and have him put a call in. 4- "we don't get any warm day's in ND"" whatever bud... please, give it a break! 5-i could go on and on but it is not worth it
The soil classification does not change because it is frozen in the eyes of OSHA, that is the reason why they don't address it. There is no way to know the strength of frozen soil/rock unless you analyze a specimen in a laboratory to determine the characteristics of the frozen material and how it performs in a trench situation. So instead of going through all that expense for a 1 day job, just follow normal protocol for the soil type.:cool2
What is the Agri-Industries policy on work place safety?
although not really what i was asking for in an answer (ie personal experience with osha or an osha decision) this is a logical explanation of how osha would probably address the situation. this makes sense. thank you for a well thought out response. our safety manager read through all of the osha decisions concerning excavation this afternoon and found no references to frost. Agri Industries has a thorough safety policy. There have been problems and concerns in the past but there is an improved awareness of safety and a good program is in place. I did call the local osha rep this afternoon and his answer was very definite. i provide him with two scenarios. one in which the excavation is below the frost line and one in which the excavation is deep but still in solid frost. the response was that this material is not considered solid rock and that it must be classified and sloped or shielded as per normal conditions. As a side note this year we have had 16 days with temperatures above 30 degrees, 28 days between 10 degrees and 30 degrees, and 21 days below 10 degrees. I think i can pretty safely say its cold here most of the time.
excavation is excavation, weather its rock or not, put a trench box down if its bad or rip it and open it up, No exceptions to frost as far as im concerned
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And what exactally do posts 16-19 have to do with this thread ? jr
Nothing?:Banghead
Can you say spammer!
It's your garden variety human spammer. :ban In the future guys and gals PLEASE do not refer to their posts in the thread. It makes a lot more work for the mods to clean up each spam post. Usually the spam posts are just removed and the thread continues on it's course. When you reference a spam post and one of us Mods removes the post, then for example - post 16-19 aren't the spam posts but regular members posts and that gets confusing fast. So we have to take each individual post and remove the spam. Thanks CM
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Each soil and rock deposit shall be classified by a competent person as Stable Rock that is the key when the crap hits the fan. As a masonry contractor this would be like saying the ground is frozen so I don't need mud sills under the scaffold.
Often when pits or mine shafts are excavated through the soil overburden, freezing of the ground using artificial refrigeration is often used to control the walls of the excavation and prevent groundwater infiltration until retaining walls or collars are constructed. However in the OP's excavation, a sunny day might cause enough radiant heating for a boulder to fall or a partial collapse to occur even if the air temperature remains below freezing.
I know i am a ***** but sunny or warm days are not a factor. It is cold here. Yesterday it was -20 F today it might get to 15 F. The frost here is somewhere between 12" to 84" depending on where you are digging. I have spoken to OSHA and been told that frost doesn't change thing. My question is still if anyone has personally experienced any discussion with OSHA on frost or are aware of any OSHA decisions relating to such.
Well you got your answer when you talked to OSHA, if the soil isn't gonna fly without shoring, benching or sloping then it doesn't matter if there is frost or not. Any speculation otherwise is unsafe, and by OSHA illegal.
I know the answers here aren´t what you want, but if someone on this public forum (which anyone can post on including 13 year-olds and spammers from India) gave you an answer contradictory to what you learned directly from OSHA, would it matter?
Yeah, you're right.
No. I have learned from the OSHA rep that frost doesn't change things. I was really hoping someone could point me towards an OSHA decision in which i could read in OSHA's written words what they determined about he effects of frost.
Man, me thinks some people are in bad need of a warm sunny day! Although it seems pretty obvious what is needed in regards to shoring, the request for actual OSHA interaction or comment on the situation is a valid one, and seems to have been totally ignored and ridiculed. I know I personally try to learn all I can about a subject of interest from the best sources possible. This means that even after I have gotten a basic answer, I am still looking for more detailed information. That is how I ended up here in fact! I am actually surprised that nobody has made any comment about the personal attacks and general lack of the politeness that is the second best attribute of HEF. Hopefully it's just winter blues and not a general decline. From my reading, the OP and CM were pretty much the only people that were civil. I rate the OP pretty high for not stooping to the level of some of the comments! Guess I should return to lurking before I get my blood pressure up... Ben~ P.S. Since when has discussion or advice been withheld because it is based on personal opinion and might get somebody in trouble if they follow it? Never slowed me down!
I have read articles about using refrigeration units to freeze the ground... that has been years ago... but I think it was to stop water infiltration into the excavation... I don't remember if was actually used as a shoring system...
Yes, there was a personal attack. Personally, I don´t think it´s worth dwelling on- point of fact: everybody else politely ignored it. As for ridiculing the OP, I think you´re reading too much into what´s been said here. I do not perceive it as the tone nor the intent of the discussion. :beatsme