just wondering if anyone has videos of pushloading scrapers. im mainly interested in the dozer technique for smooth pushing. any tips or opinions would be great from the blokes around here who have used 8H for pushing
push loading in my time pushi loading i found that it is best to always pick up the scrappers on the run dont let them stop in the cut i think it is more productive that way have the scrappers cut in lines next to each other and have the only make shallow cut do this the entire lenght and width of the cut area and then go back to the start and begin again this generally leaves a nice clean cut area i was always told that the dozer hand is in charge of the cut so make sure that the scrapper hands are traveling on the shortest path and that they know how you want them to make thiere cuts, also try to hook up with them smoothly or they my gouge just to **** you off good luck to you.:usa
Ive never pushed with a d8. The crew i was working on had Terex Ts14bs and was pushing with a D7h or D6R. The rules of the spread are simple. The guy on the dozer runs the cut. You may have time between scrapers to rough grade the area by eye. When it comes to the, I would push the until the cut gets too heavy for the dozer, and then i feather that blade of dirt out. The pan operators then know thats where to start the cut when they come back. When it comes to running the cut, I try to have the scraper make a pass, then skip just shy of a scraper width, and make another cut. This leaves a windrow inbetween the last two cuts. The next pass they pick up that windrow. It looks something Similar to this ___---___ It is easier to keep the cut even that way, and its easier to load while picking up the windrow. When it comes to pushing. I always sit just to the left of where i want the scraper to come in. My rule is, never go by me on the left, as the 7H and 6R have the seat angled to the right, that means my left rear corner tends to be a blind spot. I sit at an angle, as the scraper comes by me I start moving once the left rear passes the corner of my blade. I try to push in 2nd gear. The scrapers need to be in the cut in 1st, otherwise, they tend to run away. When making contact with the stinger, I have my blade as high as I can. That way you catch the bottom of the stinger with the cutting edge, it makes a smoother pick up. If you notice the stinger is curved, the same as your blade, like this )). Once you make contact with the stinger, I drop the blade, this locks the back end of the scraper down. One a double barrel, that means the rear tires have better traction. It also means the front of your tracks wont ride up, therefore, more of your tracks stay on the ground and maintain better traction
Once you make hard contact with the push block put the blade in float.
always start next to the slope so you and your scrapers have a straight line to go by, the fastest way to push scrapers is called chain loading. thats where the pushcat pushes out a scraper then backs straight up leaving enough room so the next scraper can swing in get straight and start digging where the previous scraper left off. cat scrapers and dozers match up well in second gear if the scraper pulls in at a 45 angle in 2nd gear when his back fender is almost past your dozer start moving pick em up in second wait till he bogs you down a bit shift into first to finish off his load, depending on the dirt scrapers should not take more than 30 sec. to load. 15-2o sec. is ideal. most important get into a routine, if the scraper isnt locked into second and he outruns you then stops tell him once then give him the hammer, if they pull in and sock it in the dirt, tell them once then give them the hammer, dont ride the brakes for no one. when that rear fender goes by your dozer there should be one puff of smoke from your cat, until you back up.
thanks for all the tips, most of my pushin has been 51s with a 11 on downhill faces about 50 meters long and pushin on the run didnt work there so i never was able to try it. now im on the old 8 pushin 21s building dams with nice long loading and i just cant get the production i want. so i think i will try the on the run style and see how it works. the dozer driver before we was not very good at all and had taught the scoop drivers a lot of bad habits which made it very hard for me. but this time around i will have 4 guys who have never driven scoops so i be able to teach em my ways. and as for givin em a hammer ive got a real good style for doin that but you gotta really upset me before i do that. i dont like bein hit when im on a scoop and you better have a good reason for hittin me.
I don't have anything to add other then I don't leave windrows they make it too rough on the dozer hand.
While I greatly prefer twins due to their superiority, I’ve spent plenty of time around singles and push-cats. First off, you’ve received a lot of good advice so far. I’ll second what Renfroe Grading said, putting the blade in float once you make contact with the stinger is important, it greatly decreases wear on the blade of the push-cat and the wear plates on the scraper. As always, regardless how experienced one of the scraper hands may be, or thinks he is, the push-cat operator runs the cut. Every scraper does as he signals. A few basic signals: The push-cat hand will raise his right or left arm and hold it visibly in the back window to signal which side he wants the scraper to come in on. If the scraper has left his ejector forward, two fists with thumbs up are placed together (thumbs pointing apart) as the scraper passes the push-cat to let him know to get on the ejector to get it back. If the push-cat wants the operator to load out a windrow, he’ll place his hands straight with his arms and hold the finger tips together to create a pyramid shape with his arms/hands to signal this. I hope that makes sense? I also like to see the push-cat drop his rippers slightly while pushing, if done with discretion, this won’t decrease load times on the scraper being pushed, and will increase overall load times in the cut. Make sure the grade checkers (assuming they’re using GPS rovers) always stake the cut in straight lines working with the angle the scrapers are cutting. As the scrapers cut down and the stakes get a few feet high onto long ridges, the grade checkers had better be on top of it to get stakes halfway in between the previous lines so the scrapers can start loading out the ridges. Based on the material and the push-cat, I set a spec time for loading. This number will really be gleaned from experience. Say a D10R pushing 631E’s in gravelly material. Load times shouldn’t be over 18 seconds, and I want to see material over the sideboards in that time frame. I’ll cut a new guy slack for a little while, but if he can’t consistently load in less than 18 seconds and have material over the sideboards, I replace him. The guys that get in are heaped and off the push-cat in 12-14 seconds are the ones who get raises. I’ve often told new scraper hands to start counting as soon as the push-cat makes contact, start at one-Mississippi and if they’re not well loaded by 15 (or whatever time fits the situation), they need to improve. This also seems to help get them into the rhythm of lifting their can and closing the apron around 14-16 seconds so they’re pulling off the push-cat in a consistent 18 seconds or less. This keeps things fluid and increases production. Second, every scraper should be picked up on the move. If the haul’s gotten short, the fill-cat stopped the scrapers and they all got to the cut at once, than they’d better be can-dragging the windrows to clean up and grade the cut up to the push-cat, or wheel-rolling the windrows in the cut which will increase load times (this is only if the cut is large enough to prevent this from becoming a clustermuck). I won’t tolerate a scraper sitting in the cut waiting to get pushed. If a scraper comes into the cut, drops his can and waits for the push-cat, I’ll have a little chat with him, if he does it again, he’s done. Ideally, with an adequate sized push-cat, the scraper should be dragging into the cut in 1st or 2nd gear (depending on material and size of push-cat) and have at least 2-3 yards rolling up into the can when the dozer makes contact. This alone can shave 2-3 seconds off load times. Once you get a few hands used to working with their push-cat, good operators can get this down to a science. In the right circumstances I’ve seen excellent operators load above the sideboards in less than 10 seconds. Another thing you might want to look into to increase production is build supers into the turns on the haul roads. As long as your cut and fill aren’t changing too rapidly, giving you a pretty constant haul road, any sharp turns should have a good super built into them. On big fills, I routinely have the scrapers build a stock pile at the end of the fill, perpendicular to the direction the scrapers are hitting the fill. I’ll then have a dozer carve out a big Nascar style turn into the side of it, and a blade feather it out perfectly. On big long term fills, I won’t flinch to put 30,000-50,000 cubic yards into the pile to create the super. Give it a nice gradual contour from the flat of the fill up onto the turn and back. It allows the scrapers to hit the fill at full speed, dump as fast as possible which makes for level filling which aids compaction and decreases compaction machine’s workload. The scrapers can then continue balls out for the super, hit it and be headed back across the cut to the fill without ever slowing down. This also really helps on canyon fill-ins where the scrapers have to climb elevation to get back to the cut. While this may increase haul distance by a few hundred feet (the scrapers won’t turn around immediately after dumping), haul times are drastically reduced because the scrapers never having to get off the throttle. Also, the sidewall flexing from tires making flat turns is greatly decreased which in turns greatly increases tire life. That alone makes a big difference in cost by the end of the job. As the fill builds, the big super will become a hole, so I’ll have my biggest utility cat(s), preferably D10’s stay late one night with the compactor and water pull, push the material into the hole and compact it. So far every geotechnical inspector I’ve worked with has overseen this operation and as long as there’s adequate compactive effort while tearing the super down, I’ve had zero complaints. The next day I’ll have the scrapers build a new stockpile, and that night, or the next night, depending on the amount of material needed, I’ll have one of the mid-sized finish cats stay late with the blade and build a super into the side of the stock pile to continue the fast cycle times of the scrapers. Anywhere on the haul road that there’s a turn, and often at turns into cuts, I build supers as well. This is especially true with twins, which greatly benefit from hitting the fill at high speed. Hell, on some tight schedule jobs I’ve painted the brake pedal every Monday morning and told the scraper hands that anyone who’s worn that paint off by Friday can find a new job. Everyone who works for me knows that the scrapers need to be the ones moving full speed all times. It’s everyone else’s job to support this and make it happen. I take the speed of my scrapers seriously.
Pushing scrapers. Hi, Ozscooper. Most of the advice given above will work in one situation or another. Basically, it is what works for you in the particular sitaution that you are working at the time. Sorry I can't help with a video. Maybe the description below will do. My favoured method of picking up a scraper is to have them pull past me on whichever side I am angled to until the push block is about one dozer length, give or take a bit, in front of my downstream corner tip, the side on which I will be pushing the scraper to. See Fig. 1. I start moving as soon as the scraper is past me, pulling across the back of the scraper and aiming to put the corner tip closest to the push block right under the push block with the cutting edge at the same height as the bottom of the push block. See Fig. 2. As the corner tip touches the push block, I start to turn the blade under the push block making a sliding contact with the push block as the blade straightens up behind it. See Fig. 3. The cutting edge of the raised blade, being angled back from the push block, helps this sliding contact and reduces any shock loading and jolting. As the contact begins to firm up and the scraper starts moving, begin lowering your blade so that the push block slides up the face of the blade to be cupped by the roll of the moldboard. This lowering of the blade can be done as part of the turning in behind the push block, once you get the 'feel' of it. You can get an approximation of this by closing one hand into a fist and holding it facing directly across your body, fingers and palm facing down. Now bring your other hand up, palm open and angled back at about 45 degrees so that the bottom back corner of your palm, directly under your thumb contacts the near corner of your closed fist with the bottom edge of your open palm at the same level as leading knuckles of your closed fist. Now slide your palm towards you, turning it as it slides much like a dozer blade would as it turns under the push block in the manner described above. At the same time, let the knuckles of your closed fist slide diagonally up the palm until your palm is directly behind your closed fist and at right angles to it, just like the dozer blade in the attached sketches. Get the picture? This method only works with a straight or semi-U blade. It does not work with an angle or 'U' blade as there is a rather large risk of spearing a scraper tyre. Timing and coordination are EVERYTHING but it is the fastest way I know of picking up a stopped scraper. When you get your hand and your eye in, you can pick them up on the run in second gear at full throttle and NO bump. With an angle or 'U' blade, I still pick them up with the cutting edge at the same height as the bottom of the push block when using an 8H or 8K. 'cos you can still see over the blade. I just do it square on from behind. As the load comes on and you slow down to a bit below first gear's top speed, downshift into first, complete the loading and upshift into 2nd again to boost the scraper on its way. The D8H, along with the D9G, are my favourite push-loading tractors because I find the separate clutch-nad-brake steering smoother and easier to judge my turns with than the later integrated types. Even with a D8K or D9H, I would use the clutch lever AND the brake pedal for my turns when picking up scrapers. Then again, maybe I'm a dinosaur. But I'm a happy one. I disagree with one member who advocated putting the blade in float once you have made contact. I always like to keep a little weight on the blade to aid traction. You can also control the cut of a scraper to a certain extent if it is cutting heavy on one side by tilting your blade up on that side. If you WANT to make it cut heavy on one side, tilt the opposite side of your blade up. This will also help with steering if you have to make a cut on a turn. Tilt the blade down on the side you are turning to. I prefer to always keep the outside edges of my cut low as it is hard for a scraper to get up on a high, in-sloping edge and stay there while loading but it is easy to take a high centre down. On the other hand, it pays to keep the outside edges of a fill high to help stop scrapers sliding over the edge as they dump. I only raise the middle of a fill to facilitate drainage if rain is likely. Hope this helps.
Pushed some 631C's with a D9H. 3 pushers and 9 scrapers. There was an excellent pushcat hand that taught us young guys his ways. We were production, not cutting grade and here is how we did it; Pushcat is pointed straight where he wants scraper to cut. Scrapers typically came in at 90 degrees to the cut, were pushed downhill to load going towards the fill, and the cut was worked side to side evenly with 1 pushcat on each side and 1 in the middle. Scrapers typically worked with the same pushcat. Scraper coming in at 90 degrees would shift to second and do a 90 degree turn in front of pushcat at about 1/2 throttle, leaving his rear tires square in front of the blade. Scraper should let off throttle a bit more and start skimming and slowing down until he feels just a bit of a speed increase and he'll know the pushcat has picked him up. If scraper stops before he is picked up he probably outran the pushcat by taking off to fast after turning. If he does stop he Should Stay Stopped. Pushcat shifts into second as scraper turns in front of him. Due to the turn radius of the scraper tractor the rear tires are traveling slowly and it is easy to creep up smoothly on the stinger. As the scraper straightens from the turn ease into contact with the stinger. Here was the hardest thing to learn, be traveling at the same speed but accelerating, when you touch the stinger if you are at the same speed and accelerating the scraper is not jarred at all, from the scraper you just notice a slight rise in speed. On downhill cuts with the D9H's and 631C's we never had to drop to 1st, good hands didn't even slow you down in 2nd and got real nice loads. Downshifting jars the scraper so I try to avoid that. Another good reason for scrapers to come in at 1/2 throttle and the deaccelerate is to avoid spinning the scraper drivers, a big no-no. The reason a scraper shouldn't take off after he stops is the pushcat probably was very close to picking him up when perhaps suddenly the scraper stops, so pushcat locks up to not bump him, then ease forward to pick him up gently. IF the scraper keeps trying to move he will probably take off before the pushcat makes contact, and so now the pushcat is chasing the scraper and the process repeats itself making an easy thing very hard. Running a single load long cut if there is a another scraper coming in he should set himself in the cut and wait for you to back up and get him. If you have time you should back the pushcat in 2nd at about 1/3 throttle to your next waiting position. Doing production correctly you should not be dozing at all. Moving dirt in the borrow with the dozer just costs money and isn't necessary. Sitting and waiting patiently is the most cost effective. Don't hit scrapers on purpose. You want your scrapers to work for you and with you. These dozers had the pushin-cushin blade and we used the top of it where the cushion was, the hinge was on the bottom. On a straight or u blade raising the blade does help to reduce the straight on shock of the blade down lower. After contact it depends on the blade on whether or not you have to just ease it down some or can hit float. On some dozers throwing it into float and letting the blade move suddenly down can jar a scraper. Once or twice ain't bad, but after the 60th load or so that day it gets pretty old if your on the scraper.
a couple pics of some of my pushing when i can figure out posting a video i will show you how i have been picking up and pushing
i couldnt see the slope very good, but by the looks of your cut it looks like you were doin just fine, so how many seconds would those 51s take to load? would you give them first gear?
I've always been careful about putting my blade in the float position since a little incident that happened to me years ago on a E.L. Yeager dirt spread. This one day a dozer and a push cat hand that rode together were not going to make it to the job. I think they had grenaded the engine in their car... Anyways, they were a no show. Our foreman starts moving people around so he can keep both 57 and 51 spreads going. He leaves one of the utility cats in the yard and takes me off of a 57 to go push 51's. Bill Kelly was one of their regular push cat hands...he'd been pushing scrapers since the beginning of time. This old man was good. I had run a push cat for Dudley many times in the past and he knew Bill and I worked good together. We would both push 51's... We would alternate who would come in first. If I was on the scraper and Bill was pushing me, as soon as I'd lift my left hand Bill would throw it in reverse while I finished with my push. Bill would then pick up the next 51 and I'd come in behind him. When he waved me off, I'd back up and pick up the next 51. This worked out great. I would have my blade in float until the scraper was loaded. At that point I'd grab a gear with my left hand, take her out of float and wave Bill off. Y'all know the black plastic dome looking thing that is at the bottom of the blade control on some of the older Cats. When they get worn they sometimes hang up.... Well, with me pushing a 51, blade in float and the 51 about ready to grab a gear is when it happened. Pushing in 2nd, I had just grabbed 3rd gear. While pulling back on the blade control I thought to myself, "self...this don't feel right". Since I was fighting with the stupid blade control I had not given Bill the signal to back off. As the scraper pulls away, the blade hits the ground while Bill is still pushing. It's amazing how fast a narrow blade behind 2 D10N's will dive on you. I still kind of think Bill did it on purpose... After all, I had not waved him off so like the good push cat hand that he was, he just kept the coals poured to her. Not that it was that big of a deal. I'm sure the 51's were wondering what in the hell was going on. Even though that was almost 20 years ago, I still think about it every time I throw the blade in float while pushing a scraper.
slope was pretty soft in those pics, i liked the scoops to be lifting out after 20 secs and gone by thirty, most times the boys were good but got the odd "clingon". when i first started on the 51s we had a "dozer legend" pushing us he hit me three times in 4 loads third hit knocked me out. no reason just a heap of excuses but i found out later he was using mobile phone. same bloke hit another fella who was a ex champion jamacian boxer and boy was there some fireworks. the only word comin from his mouth that wasnt swearin was kill. they sacked the dozer boy a week later
sometimes thats a delicate relationship between pushcat hands and scraperhands, when i first started pushcat guy would point down to dig deeper, when they point over and down that meant if you got a problem with the way im doin this lets get in the dirt. i seen a couple altercations over dirt in the cut, sometimes pushcat wars would make a day fly by, if i was in a 41 or 51 with their huge fans and the metal fins angled the engine air to the side, i would drive by the pushcat with it rapped up, he was on a bald 9, just to watch him grab his hat when the temp outside was hot and the engine heat really hot, he would look away and shield his face, in front of him i tried to never come to a stop.
yes theres nothing better than the look on a operators face as you join him in the cab for a chat or stand nose to nose in front of the blade
On Paint And Speed Hi, MassX. While I agree with you on most of your points, you have also told me that I just plain wouldn't work for you. For mine, anybody who'd pull your stunt of painting the brake pedal and firing anybody who wore it off oughtn't be in charge of anything more dangerous that a chook raffle. The brakes are there for a reason, to aid in controlling the machine and operating it safely. I also think that it is good to work to support the speed of the scrapers but, again for mine, it HAS to be within the constraints of safety, an aspect that you did not mention. The whole object of safety on a site is to have as many able-bodied people leave the site at the end of a shift as entered it at the start of the shift, without having to replace anybody. The same could be said for the machines in the spread, allowing for breakdowns. Just my 0.02.
one thing that you can do to prevent the initial hit when approaching the push block is to try and contact the push block just above the cutting edge and as the blade makes contact with the block it will roll up into the center of the blade. i learner this from a dozer hand in CA. i have seen and FELT alot of dozer operators use the center of the blade, but once you try and make contact with the bottom and let it roll up you will see it is much easier for the dozer operator and less painful for the pan operator. i hope this makes sense
I have nothing wrong with scraper operator's but the dozer operator is in charge of pushing. If I push pans, they have to do it my way or I'll sit there until they understand me. I let one pan sit still for 30 minutes one time, and the foreman came flying up in his truck cursing us with every word he could think of.:cussing I explained to him I wasn't going to chase pans all around the cut. I also said if they dont stay tight in rows he could find a new pusher. I expect the pans to stay beside each other in rows and the next one to be pushed should be ahead of us being ready. I hate when I'll be pushing one and have to back up 50 to 100 yards to push the next one waiting. Common sense is all it takes, but it seems the one's we have never get it, even though I explain it to to them muitiple times. ointhead To keep the load counts high, both dozer and pan operator's have to work together! And understand each other how there is a right way to cut. Lucky thing is I dont have to push anymore, now that I fine grade and work slopes, so now that our pushman's problem.:woohoo
+1 deas, i dont know how much scraper massx has run but safety is first. mass x i noticed you said pull in front of the cat in first or second, cat scrapers do not naturally shift into first, to get into first is a manual shift. i use first for when i get stuck, pulling something out, or coming off a really steep slope. im not above shifting c,d, model scrapers manualy but the newer scrapers with the trany locks so convenient i very rarely shift manually. i hope you werent suggesting the cat rip while pushing?
80% of caterpillar scrapers are in California
I read more variations on correct sraper operations than the opinions on President G W Bushs ever changing foreign policy. Just do whatever works in your conditions. Brakes are meant as additional safety and a tip for scraper hands. Carry your bowl low and remember the biggest brake for emergency stops is "Right hand out".......C ya..........Ray
I kinda figured mentioning that would get a reaction, so let me give you the details. Then let me know what you think. That contractor hired me shortly after buying fifteen 631C’s and D’s of dubious quality to move a substantial amount of dirt in a short time. The big issue was the scraper hands hired; only three had prior scraper experience, and several had zero previous experience operating heavy equipment. The job was simple; cut on a slope with two D10 push-cats; straight off the bottom of the slope about 1200’ was the fill. Haul road looped back up around the ridge to drop into the cut. All but the experienced operators were shy of going fast coming out of the cut, and timid to hit the super on the fill with any speed, which was causing fast scraper hands to catch up with slow hands, and cause frustration because they couldn’t pass (I don’t allow passing on haul roads). Scrapers were dropping off the top of the ridge into the cut and riding the brakes as they approached the push-cats, some staying on the brakes while getting pushed to try to control their speed, not experienced enough to know their can would keep them slow and in control. Then riding the brakes coming down out of the cut to try to keep their speed down. I was catching heat from the mechanics due to the brake problems this was causing, or making worse, and the downtime. The push-cat hands were frustrated, and we were behind schedule. I painted the brake pedals on Monday, made it clear to everyone that in this situation there was no reason to do anything but go fast. These guys just needed to keep a safe distance from the machine in front and MOVE. They could use their retarder and can do keep a controlled speed to drop into the cut, and then just fly right down to the fill and back. The threat worked great and by Wednesday things had turned around and while we had to work a lot of hours to make deadline, maintenance issues declined, and things started running a lot smoother. A few of the operators even turned into halfway decent scraper hands. I kept painting pedals until we wrapped up that phase and it worked perfectly. I wouldn’t recommend it to everyone, in every situation, but for me in that situation, it was exactly what was needed to get things on track. Oh, and I had zero safety incidents on that job as well. No need to fret the safety aspect of my operations either. In the nine years I spent as a Kiewit foreman/superintendent, I earned a merit award for 110,000 supervised accident-free manhours. I do take safety seriously, but safety and high production can run hand in hand with each other.
As posted above, there are more theories on the "right" way to run a scraper spread than I know how to count. Part of this is due to different site conditions. Each technique has its place. Picking up scrapers with the scraper in 2nd gear is appropriate in good conditions, andwith consistent material, it is normal for the scraper to drag a few yards into the can on his own before the cat gets there, helps him slow down and makes things easy on all. Different methods depending on single, double, or even triple pushing. See ROP's post above. Yeager spreads are some of the most efficient around, using 2 and sometimes 3 D-9L or D-10N pushcats. 3 Cats shaves only a second or two from the load time, but the load is bigger, and not just from being piled on, but it is compacted into the can. 2 similar looking loads, one with 2 cats, one with 3, when weighed, will show about 2 to 3 CY more in the can with the extra cat. If they are making 120 loads per hour, the 3rd cat is worth an extra 240 to 360 cy per hour. Al this goes out the window if you are in rock, or even worse, loose material with scattered boulders. Trying to run production like that in the rock will end up with cutting edge bolts sheared, floors peeled back, tire damage from the dozer when the scraper suddenly stops midway through your turn to catch it, and a host of other problems. In these conditions, I advise each scraper stopping and the dozer tagging up then load. I know its slow, but things stop completely when all the iron is broken. Sometimes, you can get away with making sure the scraper keeps the can up untill dozer is firmly tagged up, then dig in.
You guys crack me up, Who would have thought that something as simple as paint could be used to judge the competency of an operator? First it was scratches on excavator counter weights, then the backside of cutting edges. Now its the brake peddle. I guess I'd better thank the owners of the company for keeping a hack like me on the payroll for the last 18 years!
MassX Glad to see you clear that up. I know from your previous posts that you know what you are doing. The past few years have been tough running scraper spreads, with so much work and a shortage of experienced operators. Sometimes extreme measures had to be used to complete projects on time with the lack of experienced hands. I don't think we will have that problem again for a few years. I have a stack of applications a foot high of experienced operators out of work. If you can find a job, the people are available to get it done.
How many of you have to run scrapers in muddy conditions???? Except for dry summers here we have to deal with mud most of the times.So running scrapers and pushcats in cuts that you can hardly get through empty sometimes is tuff. Sometimes you have to skim the scraper half way throught he cut before you can get a load,because if you get to big a load before you get close to harder ground your stuck along with the pushcat. So half a load it better then geting stuck,plus burying the pushcat gets nothing done.Not an easy task sometimes. Most of the time you have to run the cut alot different then what i'm seeing of the post above.It's easy to run a cut when your working with dry dirt. Mud cut you have to keep them so they will drain also which means sallow cuts and not how fast you can get a lot.More that you don't get stuck,then there isn't any production. Shale and rock cuts and loading scrapers is also another situtation that you can't always keep selfloading.You have to stop and let the pushcat pick you up a lot of the times.Not always ,but you better not be spinning the tires trying to self load.That why you see those XXXXXXXX painted on the rims.Sometimes it's just common sense. Running productive cuts isn't as easy as it looks in mud,shale,and rocky conditions.:drinkup:usa
Another good scoop thread, Ozscooper i worked with 13 of those 51,s and 4 - 5 of those 11,s you had on the M7 and the pushloading methods i saw really impressed me, the use of the dual tilt to crank the blade over and slewing onto the pushpad low and letting it roll up the blade was very fast and not a big hit at all and the lack of black smoke from the dozer exhaust shows how quickly they could get picked up and then punched out in 15 seconds in the real creamy stuff, was a pleasure to watch.
your spot on gavin the abi method works real well with the 11s and 51s real smooth once you get a hang of it. i need to try newer styles now that i dont have a nice 11 to push with.i keep gettin me arms all tangled up trying to slew and change gears and move the blade i really miss me finger tip steerin. my old 11 just had a birthday in sydney mate said it looks like new again, bit different to how she looked in the pics.
Hey, I know this is an old thread, if you go to you tube and put in 651 scraper, there are plenty of videos of Single engine scraper/push cats working. I have to favor the operators in Socal as the best, they are very effecient. The push cat Operators you see in France & Germany loading mostly 631's have a lot of learning to do.
Here's a link to one of Socal earthmovers videos of a D9L single pushing 651B's very effeciently. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9BMRakDMKQ&feature=player_detailpage
Hes in 3rd gear, thats a big NO NO where i work.
Yeah, but Cat would not put it in there if the machine could not handle it. He is a very good pushcat op in my opinion. I think watching push pulls with good operators is how pushcat and single powers need to work, picking up on the run to keep the cycle going and in good order.
it can handle it, but cuts undercarriage life in half
Maybe he was told to use 3rd? Maybe that contractor bids their jobs assuming they use 3rd? Seems like a smooth operation, one 651 pulls in just as another is pulling out of the cut.
Or maybe they dont know any better, alot of people dont.
very impressive i do not know alot about these ops. mass ex with scrapers and push cats. my opinion would be that the outfit is very successfull. part of that is the operaters. i am sure an op. of this size has supervisors and boss men around frequently. if there was a problem with the speeds the cat operater is using i am sure they would make it aware to him. no reason to pick apart another operation. these guy's obviously know what they are doing and are sure moving the material efficiently. my hat goes off to the cat hand, i am sure he is bushed after doing that 5-6 days a week. regards. cd
All contractors are willing to sacrifice something at the detriment of something else, the key is to know those limitations and walk the tightrope in order to maximise profit and move the dirt for the lowest cost per cube. While 3rd gear can look like a cowboy running it this guy does a good job. There is another vid Kenny has posted with this guy running a C27 repowered D10N and he is punching out 2 651B,s per minute, now most dirt contractors bid on 50 minute hours so 100 51 loads an hour is really moving the dirt!!
fftopic after hearing directly from my father who has done major infrastrucure projects in china. you may want to learn how to move dirt before commenting and posting a link that has nothing to do with our conversation ointhead :usa:usa:usa Mod edit - yeah CD another spammer bites the dust.. :guns
Gavin/Mass-X You both seem to know scraper operations inside and out. Personally I have never run in a pan fleet like this, they are all by a thing of the past around here, so forgive me if this is a stupid question. The rate the 651's are coming in at justifies, to me anyway, reversing in 3rd gear (one of the few times you'll hear me say that), but if he was in 2nd to push them, wouldn't the pans be able to take a deeper bite and get more packed load into the bowl in a relatively similar time?
I dont think he is pushing them in 3rd, hes just backing up and and catching them in 3rd then down shifting to 2nd or 1st, theres no way he push a f1 in 3rd, it bogged down to bad. 100 loads in an hour huh??? How far were they going 50ft??? I find this hard to believe, we had 2 10R's and an 8T pushing 17 631's this summer and the highest load count we got was 750. thats 75 loads an hour with 3 dozers. Ive never even heard of a dozer pushing 100 loads an hour. 1000 loads a day? with 2 scrapers, Come on! Those 2 scapers are movin 40,000 yards a day???
Vapor, i think you might be mixing up my numbers a bit there and i apologise if that is how it seems i put them in the context of the post. If a single D10N can push 2 51,s in a minute then on a 50 minute hour there,s your 100 loads, simple math, sure the dirt needs to be spot on but i never said only with 2 scrapers! It depends on the haul how many scrapers you need. Here is the link to the video, he catches the pushpad on the first scoop at about 15 seconds and begins reversing off the 2nd scraper at at about 1.17 and you can clearly see he has a few seconds delay beetween scrapers. http://www.youtube.com/user/Gavin84w?feature=mhum#p/f/90/qvrSg6PNTX8
Yair...had to grin at a comment there about tandem pushing. I was a fitter/spare operator and what all on a nice little dirt job a long time ago. The dirt boss was a Texan and he had a bee in his bonnet about tandem pushing. We had a motely mix of subbies with Cats and Wabcos, one bloke had a couple of Green Lizards and there was an Allis chalmers some thing to make life interesting. It was still the days of cable blade and stick shift and I was pushing with an Allis twenty one which are a bit more nimble than the common or garden variety D8's they were using for pushcats. Tex insisted that that I be tag man for this tandem pushing caper. They built push blocks for the D8 rippers and Tex gave us the drum on tandem pushing complete with diagrams on the wall. It worked okay I suppose but I still think the concept is B/S. I pointed out after the first day they would have got more production if the toolbox session had been on how to set an alarm clock than than how to tandem push a scoop...two of the twenty ones had idled for forty minutes on the sevice pad waiting for jockeys. If a job has been bid that tight that a few seconds per load is going to make any difference to the bottom line I think the outfit should stick to landscaping with a wheeling can...that way they won't get into too much trouble.
Tandem pushing comes in handy thou if you are having to push up hill or if you are in hard material. And before i get flammed for pushing uphill, we all have had to dig a lake or retention pond before, you have to push uphill when building one of those.
It,s interesting you mention the topic of tandem pushing in "Australia" Untill the advent of things like youtube i had not understood the advantages of cushion blades and just brushed them off as a US only type thing because in over 30 years of being around earthmoving in Au i had never seen one. The australian way and i have seen this with many contractors is to have the scraper come into the cut skimming the bowl getting a couple of free cubes and keeping things fairly tidy and then stop and wait for the dozer to tag up. Twin power P/P usually hook up on the run and i want you to hold that thought for a minute. After seeing many vids on Youtube (primarily posted by Ken on his SoCal site) i did not see 1 single power open bowl scraper stopped waiting for a dozer (AU style) to get to it and 99% of the dozers pushing had cushion blades and some set up with 2 dozers double pushing. As with trucks scrapers do not make money when they are not moving dirt from A to B, the inherant advantage with scrapers is they are on the move while loading where as trucks are sitting still so the more you can keep the cycle ticking the better you are. Now also while trawling through youtube it seems the French are big scraper operators as well and a number of videos show at least 6 - 10 different companies all using cushion blade equipped D10,s with 31,s but the difference to the US style is they tag up in what i would describe as Australian style and when you watch it there seems to be little advantage to having the cushion blade as compared to Australian contarctors (with SU blades) and even less when compared to how it is used in the US (Primarily California, the scraper capital of the world) The US style as i will call it see,s the scraper and dozer tagging up on the move, just like you would see pushpulls as mentioned earlier and when you watch it a few times the advantage is as obvious as the nose on your face, try this video for a good example of it: http://www.youtube.com/user/Gavin84w?feature=mhum#p/f/140/7VhqBXwmzLs I truely believe that if an Australian contractor adopted the Californian style (think of it as the back scraper in a PP set up being the dozer) they would be moving dirt quantities far in excess of what they do today but i think there are a couple of fears that the tractors versatility is compromised with it having a cushion blade along with a "thats how we have always done it" attitude that stops this concept from getting over the line. Great to hear peoples thoughts from other parts of the world on this and to me this is what forums are all about as opposed to some that just turn into pi$$ing contests
Yair...hey Gavin interesting comments. I reckon tandem pushing is a SoCal thing although Hamblins played around with it on the Fairbairn dam in Qld...I think it would have been about 1972. They had a couple of gees set up with rippers and rubber push blocks instead of blades...they were known as "pigs"
You don't need a cushion blade to catch scrapers on the move. It just makes life nicer for the scraper hand. You just catch them with the blade up high so the stinger can ride up the curve of the blade. That acts as a cushion then you just start dropping the blade down to where it should be. I can get over not seeing that L and N not rolling some coal damn CARB BS. Smoke was one of the things I used for timing and a good indicator of things in a scraper spread.
I've seen tandem pushing in Missouri as well.
Its not just a Socal thing, we have 15 D10's all have cushin blades on them except the 2 new T's and half of them have push blocks on the back and the other half have rippers, and most of are work is around illinois, texas, oklahoma, and Kansas
I think our friends in Australia meant the USA it certainly isn't just a Socal thing
Just replying to the 100 loads a hour, but I have never seen that done. I've seen some good push cat guys and have never even heard of 1 D10 cranking out 900 loads a day. The company I work for runs D10's and 631's and they are a very succesful company. I'm not saying it can't be done but we had a spread of 16 631's and 2 D10's with a scraper with them at all times and we were getting about 800 loads a day out of both D10's. I'd really like to see the video, any links?
Back on page 3 i posted the link to the guy doing 2 651,s in a minute, it only goes for a minute and a half or so but times that minute by 50 and tell me how many loads he could do in 60 minutes
You cant do it like that it dont work, the next minute he may have got 0 loads! In a 10 hour day 450 loads is alot! 1000 not possible!
I would like to understand why you can't do it like that when it clearly shows that he punched out 2 51,s in a minute with a slight delay beetween them. If every time he backs up there is a scraper pulling in why would he get 0 loads in the next minute? You would continue on as seen keeping the cycle going. It,s all about planning, simple as that.
MESA is the company in the video shown pushing out 2 scrapers in a minute. I have visited California several times and seen MESA working on dirt spreads just like this. And weather you believe it or not Gavin84W's numbers are highly likely correct. YES it is possible to get 100 loads an hour if you have a guy that knows what he is doing. I have seen pushcat guy's in worse material than he was working in getting out 2 scrapers in just over a minute, and with butter material like I see this there is no reason for him no to be pushing out 2 a minute. There is a reason this guy runs pushcat for them while 90% of the other operators are sitting at home unemployed (maybe like yourself?). Did you forget production is key? The jobs of today are not like the jobs of the past. Maybe some should get there head unstuck and take some notes,actually learn from this fellow...
i think a 1000 a day off of one tractor is hard to belive but not impossible given the right conditions. Here in nebraska in the muddy ground we have my best day is 520. But in my experiance in the pushcat something always goes wrong when you are having a good day thats messes up your rythem. I usually have to go push the morons out as well so one stuck scraper if there isnt a dozer on the job can cost you a number of loads. But im jsut from alittle dirt outfit in Nebraska that doesnt in my oppinion work very profitciatly by most peoples standards
also im sure its been said in here already somewhere but where i run pushcat not that i agree with it but im am not allowed to back up in 3rd. actually 3 our of 4 of our pushcats have 3rd gear blocked out of them
Thats a key comment right there, i learn a lot from the tube Vapor i am not tryin to shoot you down or bag any outfits that run pushcats etc, i love this **** and i have made a good living working on and around yellow iron my whole life. I just see that with a broader awareness and an ability to "think outside the box" there is as they say a better mousetrap, sometimes that can be using the mousetrap you have better and thats all the thread is about, definently not having a go at anyone or trying to be a smartarse with what i post but would like to see the discussion flourish a bit more than things like "it can,t be done"
Have you seen 1000 loads out of one tractor? I'll compare load counts from our 631 Spread to your guys. We use D10's as well, with a spread of 12 631G scrapers. What is there to learn as well? I'm happy to learn a few tricks, but hes saying simply because this guy has a good 2 minutes that its capable for him to get 1000 loads in a day. I thought the 2 push cat guys I had working for me in Louisana were good and they averaged 400-450 loads a day. Those push cat guys didnt even stop to pee. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Fqo-hhTsg&feature=fvsr That is another video from the same guy that seems more realistic. Also in work days you figure a total of 9 hours that the machine is actually spent working. Between grease and fuel in the morning, tractor going to the cut and setting up, hopefully the scrapers are waiting on him, then giving machine time to get back to the boneyard at night, and time to cool down. This is also not including the operators well being either. As I'm sure hes gonna have to stop and have a bathroom break, as well as get something to drink as well. From the video of him pushing those scrapers above I calculated his load count to be about 500-600 a day. Which is still very good and he is a talented operator, but I again will state 1000 loads a day from one machine is not possible. at least in a 10 hour day.
You make a very good point, theres always gonna be that one guy or one scraper thats gonna mess up your rythem. And when you have a big scraper spread going that could mess up a big part of your day. We try to have a D8T wrking around our push tractors so they can tighten up the straglers.
:drinkup Watching that video, if he says as consistant as he does in the 4 minutes (I counted 6 loads) that ends up being 900 loads in a ten hour run. Also I wouldn't be surprised if there is a second dozer floatin around that cut, grading and ripping, he could probably cover for the pushcat, when he needs a time out. I don't run in scraper spreads so I don't know how these things really work, but I do know that anything is possible if you have the right equipment (type and number of) for the job. I also know that everyone has their bad days and truely banner days, I for one see it as possible to get 1000 loads in 10 hours working, and also possible that some days they only will get 100. In my opinion if it takes longer than 30 minutes to track to the work area from the staging area, maybe the project team should look at the possiblilty of building a new staging area, so you aren't tracking the equipment so far at the begining and end of the shift, at least for the slow equipment. The company I work for, the Fuel guy is suppose to come after the shift is over, so no lost time there. But hey, I'm just a lowly operator, what do I know:drinkup opcorn
Im just saying I have never seen a 1000 load day with 1 tractor (being a single D10) pushing 631's. As far as 30 minutes, if every operator is like yourself and was sitting on their tractor at 7am no one would have this problem. As well if every operator looked over their machine on their own time. By the time you check your oil levels, walk around your machine, as well as grease it its gonna be 30mins before you can get in the cut. Guess there are the guys that just start it up and take off, but if thats the case its gonne be longer then 30mins because they are gonna be sent stright home. Never seen an operator wait til exactly 12 to take lunch either. Also he got 6 laods in the 4 minutes. So thats about 1.2 laods a minute. 1.2x60=72 72x9=648 Even if you do count a 10 hour day its not 1000. I used the 1.2 as I did not see another scraper behind him. What company's that work 10 hour days charge the whole 10 hours to the machine? We typically charge 9 to the machine. I would go as far as saying it's possible to see 700-800 loads. Just would someone please give me some real experience as to what load counts they or their operators turn in. Not a youtube video that you watch 4mins and figure out his load count. I told you what ours typically run which is around 500. Another push cat operator stated his best day was 520. I'm nobody important either just trying to get a handle on 1000 loads a day.:drinkup
http://socalearthmovers.com/forum/index.php?topic=606.0 Theres some pictures of are scraper spread, me and KMAN9090 are brothers and work for the same company, one of the Largest in the united states. And no one has seen 1000 loads in a 10 hour period out of 1 pushcat.
It's typical on a big spread in Socal if the cut is a long way from the parking area, that the push cats & ripper cats will just be left parked in the cut at the end of the shift & the foreman will ride the operators back to the vehicles. The service truck will come to the cut & fuel and lube. Same goes for lunch, the machines are left in the cut & the foreman gives the operators a ride to the parking area. Only on weekends are the push cats walked back to the main parking area. As to warming up the machines, the mechanics arrive about 1 hour before the shift & check the machines & start them. Then at 7am when the shift starts, the machines are warmed up & ready to work.
If you look at the situation, there apears to be 4 scrapers on a real short haul, looks like a recompact. You will notice the same equipment numbers apear again. Another dead giveway to the same machines is the one 651b is a converted 657B and you can see it still has the rear planatery axles, come back to the push cat real quickly. This guy is a good push cat operator, he has good control of the cut, I noticed in one of the videos, if the scraper bogs down after being loaded, he leaves the scraper to get going on his own & gets back to the next scraper arriving in the cut.
And as for being unemployed! LOL! Past 3 years have been my best years, and looks like this next 4 million yard job we got coming up is goin to be my best few years yet! But we will have 20 631's and 3 D10's so if were movin 3000 loads a day, we should be done in 3 months! But we will also have 20 john deeres pulling 2 pans, and 10 740's and 6 740's with 60 yard eject beds on them so will proably have this job knocked out in 4 weeks tops. Should have it finished in 5 days to since are D6 operator can finish 100 acres a day and the job is only 470!
Dug overburden, Where I work, we're expected to be there "boots on" 15 minutes before whatever the start time is. Most operators (myself included) are there a good 30 minutes early to check out the machine and fire it up. Most cases, if start time is 7am, we're done our morning huddle and usually in the machines going to work. If we work a ten hour shifts, it may not be ten full hours, but it better not be 9, super's get a little cranky if you're taking an hour lunch all the time. Side note, if you guys are using the E-ject 7460 wagons, I sure as hell hope for your sake you aren't claiming 60 yards on them. Heaped they are rated at 46.9 cubic yards.
The company i used to work for (early retirement) would require we get there 15 min early to inspect machine and warm her up. Also we didnt take lunches, i hear most accidents happen after lunch because the operators head isnt in the game. Mathamatically it is possible to get 2-3 loads per minute with a pushcat if the operators are good enough. I was always taught that i had to get loaded in 12-15 seconds when being pushed. If the spread has good hands, it is possible. My record with push-pulls is 313 loads in a 10 hour day, x2 is 626 with 2 machines. My partner and i have gotten 1min, 30 sec ROUNDTRIP times in front of the cat rep, which was our faster time. They were talking about sending us to the proving grounds but that never materialized. These are great machines that were engineered superbly, anything is possible with them. BTW we (Blount Contracting) just got a 3 million yard job in phoenix that i might have to come out of retirement for
I get to my job everyday 30 mins early, but as for greasing your machine, and checking the fluids we dont do until start time, are you saying that you get there and grease your machine and check the oil on your time? And that you are not getting paid??? And take a look at the other picture i put up of are eject trailers and check out the massive side boards we put on ares, its not no 46 yards. The next time you are around a scraper spread i strongly recommend you ask your boss or the dozer operator what his load count is.
Most of our foreman will pay us the extra 15 at the beginning and end of the day for fluid checks and or greasing. I'm not a foreman so I don't know the specifics on claiming the equipment. I personally only grease in the morning during the summer (ie warm days), winter time I try to either grease at the end of the shift or any time during it that I can. Gives the pins time to warm up as well as the grease gun. How well do those wagons work? with or without the sideboards...
This will be are first job working with them, but have heard they will move ALOT of dirt as long as the ground is relativley flat, and hard. If its hilly or soft the 740 just doesnt have the guts to pull it, and a 740 with a regular bed will lap them. You also have to have a pretty open site, since it takes half a football field to get them turned around, and if you have to backup you mite as fell forget about it!
Yes, i would get there early and check my machine for FREE, grease too. I enjoy being around the machines, so i have no problem with it. Pans suck, they haul struck yardage, not COMPACTED heaps
Vapor, do you go by the name Vapor300 on youtube as well?
yes i do! Yes pans do suck, i prefer running push pull type scrapers, but when the ground gets soft you cant beat the pan scrapers. As for getting there early and greasing your machine off the clock thats awesome, just wish everybody had that attitude, but rarley do you see that. Most of the times its the guys that start a 7:05, take lunch at 11:55 go back to work at 12:35 and quit at 5:25
True, but they do good sand if you can get morons to start at the end of the cut and work back cutting downhill. Do you know how many people start at the front of the cut, cut down a couple feet only to have a uphill slope? It drives me insane!!
Why are ya'll arguing about this? Ya'll are being to literal. Maybe they only got out 980 loads in a day I think thats close enough. Or they probably they don't get 1000 every day since no one is calming that. Vapor and Kman have you every worked a big spread in socal? I have as well as many other areas and there is not many other place in the US where dirt is move like it is there. The vid clearly shows he is knocking scraper out in a rate that would achieve ~ 1000 loads a day. I'm sure at some point in your lifes you have told someone something can't be done just to be eating crow later.
I am by no way shape or form claiming it can't be done but I am saying 'I have never seen it or heard of it". I will say there are other places dirt is moved in bulk, being from the texas area you have to of heard of the SH130 job?
There are many, many videos of dozers pushing scrapers on U Tube, check it out.
There is no other place in the country that moves dirt like SoCAL! http://www.tjlambrecht.com/austin_sh130.asp moved 2.2 million yards a month, also mcaninch moved around 15 million yards at branson airport in around a 9 month period!
The video shows 1 minute of a 10 hour work period. How can you base a load count of that??? Does your boss ask you to only count your loads for the first hour, then calculate your load count for the day off of that one hour???
funny you should say that ive seen alot of pushcat hands get lazy and start to average load counts and for some reason the ones that were known to do that always come up with claims of hauling 600 plus loads a day............ i dont think it can be done 600 is a near impossible number to make in my oppinion but thats here and in my tractor in nebraska dirt. idk about elsewhere.
Ive never seen 600 either, best ive seen was around 500!
my best day is right is just over 500. my granpa run a pushcat for 30 years, from new mexico to the north slope of alaska at prudoe and he said the same as you 600 is not possible and 500 is hard to make.
Now thats a honest answer. Never heard of SH130 that I can think of off hand, but its a big state, I'm a Demo guy, and don't have much interest in MassX since I left Socal. You missed the point I'm not that pompous about moving dirt. I'm an though on the fact that TX in the best state in the union though. I never said no one knows how to move dirt better then they do in Socal. More that there terrain, soil conditions, and ETC makes it prime working conditions for scraper at times. Though into to the mix a hand full of speed addicts on scrapers that are feeling no pain and your mov'en some dirt then. Your right you can't but it clearly shows under the right circumstances it COULD be done. I'm not saying it has or hasn't been done. From my recollection though with a D9 our load counts where in the low 600 range, but we did have another D9 ripping that would occasionally pick up a scraper. Actually I pay someone to count loads and don't care how they do it as long as the numbers add up. Its a good thing too because I suck at counting loads. "Hummmmmm Did I count that load or not????? Hummmmmm"
bang, click, backup. bang, click, backup. of course without the literal bang. but ive never had and issue as long as your loadcounter is in the right spot and not a junk pushbutton style counter
but what do I know im young with alot to learn. to me tho counting loads and counting them accuratly is part of the pushcat hands job description. if you cant to that and do it profieciantly your no hand.... this is just the way i do it and I keep a pretty good load count. i was also told when i was tought to run pushcat that if you second guess whether you counted the last load or not that you probably did and not to add another
Thanks I'll keep that in mind. Anyways load counting is the scraper hands job and I skipped that position. But hey I'm young too maybe I'll learn to count someday
knew I spelled that wrong
If you working on a dirt moving project and are running a dozer and have never been on a scraper your missing out, usualy the dozer hands are supposed to be the leaders out there and are supposed to be the ones that show the scrapers what to do and how to do it, and if you have never been on a scraper you have no idea what that machine is capable of, what it can and cant do, and how to build it. 90% of the good dozer hands ive worked around were good scraper hands. Now if your just finishing with the dozer thats a lil different, but if your going to be working around the scrapers, you need to know how to run one.
I feel the exact same way. As far as im concerned the best hand always start in a scraper. Scraper hands also to my knowledge always make the best foremans and supers too. If you cant build something with a scraper chances are you arnt going to be able to build it with anything else either. It is the root knowledge or all dirt. It teaches you how to do something alittle at a time and thats the most important thing you can learn IMO
I never said I haven't ran a scraper, but I'm not a scraper hand I refuse to go balls out all the time(had back issues all my life). I have always been put on more precision oriented things. I grew up running dozers so it was easier to just teach me to run a scraper spread, but I'm not expert. My first time working with scrapers I was thrown into a 825 and told to run the fill. That the past though not many scrapers here and a heck of a lot less guys that know how to run them.
The Sh130 job was the largest dirt moving job in the state of texas. Started up a few years ago but are getting close to wrapping it up. I believe it was the largest grading product in the US, but not sure but I did hear that before.
I think it is pretty unreasonable to predict production by looking at the few minutes that are showing on that vid. In the real world you have to reorganise the cut at times...and scraper flow will alter as they dump out along the fill. In my experience you just can’t keep them lobbing so convenient on the push Cat. for the entire shift. That bloke is good but, he greases on real nice. It’s not that hard though...he has obviously been told to take it to the limit. I have never seen it mentioned here but if you make first contact with the blade sliding across the push block the tractor will push at an angle for a moment and then as you let the clutch in she takes the load and boogies and squares herself up nice. ( Yeah, yeah, I know, you probably haven’t got steering clutches but I’m sure you get my drift) When you get it right you’ll sometimes see (and smell) a little puff of friction smoke...at night a trail of sparklers will glow a moment on the blade.
My old company had an operate that was capable of doing what you just described. It was cool to see, he didnt have to back up and catch the scraper. He'd just slide his blade across the stinger leaving marks that looked like an arc welder was moved across it
with the pushblock on this dozer you can grab your scrapers all the way to one side or the other and push them though almost a 90 degree corner and never touch a clutch. because pushing on one corner or the other corner of the dozer will tend to pull the tractor to one side or the other. if you have to grab a steering clutch while pushing a scraper you usually get a jerk not to mention all power to one track and most likley you will spin. the tractor in this video is a clutch tractor. the problem with sliding, is a clutch tractor doesnt turn like a diff steer tractor does. to run that sharp you would have to grab a brake pretty hard. it is probably faster to do it the way he is. the other problem with the slide method even with a diff steer 8 or 9 is one misjudgement in how far you back up and you smoke the stinger of the scraper with the side of the dozer blade. this could result in cracking a hardnose or trunion ball for the "inside the rail" push dozer. or you could tare up the steps on the back of the scraper. im not saying you shouldnt or cant slide the dozer behind the scraper and make it work 99 percent of the time. im just saying there is risks and it is hard to do if the scraper never stops moving foreward and you never stop moving backward to time yourself perfect to slide the pushblock across the stinger while shifting to 3rd forward and turning....
not to mention if "it looks like you dragged a arc welder across it" and you seen sparks there was alot of friction......... friction wears iron out and it isnt cheap in labor or iron to resurface a pushblock or scraper stinger.
Do you mean the move that Deas describes in post#9 of this thread?
Yair...thats right Buckethead, a good diagram there, I had not checked out the first part of this thread...basicaly the first part of the contact has a slight sideways component instead of straight ahead. I emphasise "slight". I don't quite understand the "arc welder" marks as commented on above. Things do wear though but a 600 amp Lincoln can make a big difference overnight.
Thanks, I get it now.
Kinda sounds a bit contradictory there. I have seen it. Is it common? No, it's not, but on days when everything lined up just right, we saw one of our 11s pushing 51s make the 1000 load mark a few times. I've never done it myself, but I have seen it done.
Sorry still dont believe it, and wont believe it either. In order to get that you dont need everything to just line up, you need a miracle. 1.6 loads a minute, and thats if the dozer is pushing scrapers at 7 on the dot, and is still pushing scrapers at 5:30, and saying that he does not stop to take a leak or anything.
I guess you guys don't know how to set up a cut then, because a D11N pushing 651Es in a downhill cut can load one, then back up, and grab another one in less than 30 seconds and do it again......and again....and again.....and the skinner can stop for a leak anytime he needs. Yes, it's a real highball show, but it's possible with a good crew and the right conditions. I've seen it, and I know it's possible, but if you don't want to listen, that's your call.
If i said i got 500 loads on a 627 would you beleave me??? I have no clue what crew you have been on and if you have even worked around a scraper spread before, im not just going to take your word for it. There is more then just us 2 that has said that its not possible.
To be honest, I don't believe anything you or your brother (if you are actually different people) say after the crap you have posted in the past, but that's neither here nor there. I know what I have seen, I know it's possible, and I know I have spent far too much time around scrapers for my liking. But like I said, if you don't want to listen to someone who has seen it, so be it, your loss.
http://s369.photobucket.com/albums/oo132/kman9090/?action=view¤t=TNT2.jpg proof we are brothers http://s369.photobucket.com/albums/oo132/kman9090/?action=view¤t=100_0011.jpg&newest=1 proof we work around 631 spreads on a "DAILY" basis http://s369.photobucket.com/albums/oo132/kman9090/?action=view¤t=100_0008.jpg&newest=1 I have no idea about a D11 and scrapers as I have never been around them, but I do know what a D10 and 631 spread will do.
Everything i have worked around i have pictures to back it up, the only thing i dont have pictures of is the 5230 and 777's i worked around 2 summers ago. And everything i have said i have backed up with pictures, and it really dont bother me what you think. For all i know you could of worked around scrapers for a week and now think you know it all, seen that before. The day that they got the 1000 load count, what were you doing?
It was more than once, and usually, I was fixing something that someone else broke. Though, sometimes, I might have been filling in on a production machine because someone never showed up for work. Be it a hoe, dozer, grader, or loader, it doesn't really matter. I did that duty for 5 years, so that should qualify as being around scrapers more than a week, but then again, what does it matter, you won't listen anyway. Now I move real dirt, not the rinky dinky little road building shows that only run small stuff. Got sick of the hours and living on the road, now I'm home every night and warm and comfy in a cab.
So its safe to say that you were not apart of the 1000 load day, and that you could of very easily misunderstood someone saying that they got 1000 loads in 2 days, or that the 2 pushcats got 1000 loads, or something along those lines. You just heard there load count, but you were not running the pushcat, or a scraper, or anything for that matter that you can verify for sure that it was done. You just heard it. And that i am not going to beleave! SORRY
Like I said right off the bat, I haven't got that kind of count, but I have seen it. I know it's true, and not a misunderstanding. I don't really care what you believe or not, it's a simple fact. You have no idea what we were involved in, or how in depth we were in it. So there's no way for you to understand how I know the numbers are right. When the super pulls in the yard and tells you he can't wait, looks like we'll break a thousand loads again if none of our crap breaks down, and you only have the one push cat running with the 51 spread, it's kind of hard to misunderstand. But all facts aside, you are free to believe whatever you want, and I'm done trying to get across to you that it's possible. Some people just can't pull their head out of their butt long enough to listen to someone who has been there. So you just keep on pretending you are two different people, and live in bliss.
LOL Did you not see the picture of us in the 27's??? We are identical twins, and are 2 different ppl
Yup identical twins except Tyrel has a little bit worse attitude then me. We have done everything together our whole life. Whether it be run a push pull team, to fourwheelers to pulling trucks. You can easily go to www.competitiondieselforums.com and they will verify we are 2 different people. Or you can easily go through our photobucket account and see our 4 wheelers as well as pulling trucks. We even have almost identical 2008 Ford F-350 pick up trucks. I can assure you we are 2 different people. I'm glad you like your job, but I like completing jobs and moving on to another one for a different challenge and conditions. We also do alot more then just road projects. http://s369.photobucket.com/albums/oo132/kman9090/?action=view¤t=meandtyrelinlake.jpg
Now that we have providied over 100 pictures and shows we are 2 different ppl, how about some proof that this 1000 load counts happened? Why does it bother you so much that i dont believe you?
Your pics don't prove anything just like there is no way to prove guys have hit 1000 loads unless you see it in person. I do know one thing though you don't know as much as you like to think, and you going around calling people lairs only proves that. You still haven't said weather you have move any dirt any where but the plains.
since i have no knowledge of scrapers and what type of production that can attain, i will not enter into the bit..ch fight that is going on here. my only thought is that there is a wealth of knowledge here and a couple of young turds might as well shut up and give it a break for christs sake. please give it a break children. tell us about something interesting or helpfull to othere.. but this is getting out of control
No problem, just saying we are 2 different people.
Its my opinion i said it wasnt possible and that i didnt beleave it, thats when he got all defensive, and started all the crap about us being one person and so on, and im sorry i defended myself, i see that know that u guys wouldnt. I know im very young, and you have no idea what i know or what i dont know.
So we have beat the scraper load count to death, how about hoe and trucks??? The best operation i have seen with hoe and trucks was around 2200 loads in a day but that was 2 12hr shifts, with 2 5110's and 8 740's to each hoe. The outfit was Mcaninch picture i took
I don't know why I'm bothering, you'll just argue anyway,but...... We don't really go by load counts here, we count how many tons we move, and that averages around a million a day.
When we still had our 385 it would average 12000 yards a day during a ten hour shift with four 740 rock trucks. I don't really remember what the load counts were though. Course this would belong in a new thread since it has nothing to do with push pulls but that is the nature of a HEF thread. Haha.
I just figured id put it in here since we were talking about load counts. Rather interested in load counts since a million tons is not hard to do, i cant remember how many tons we hauled in Indiana but 777's were hauling 220 loads a night!
It completely depends on what material you're digging and how far you're moving it. It's not as easy as you may think. Have you ever moved 1 million tons in a day?....didn't think so. Hauls can be upwards of 8 miles for a round trip for some trucks, and may be as little as a quarter mile for others. Depending on the series of 777s, they range from 85 tons to 100 tons rated capacity, so figuring in a 20% overload on a 100 ton truck...which may be on the small side depending on the material....220 loads a night would have been in the 26,400 ton range. For us, it depends on which trucks are running from what shovels, how far they're hauling, and what the shovel is loading to give the load count, and it's changing all the time. So, unless you're in dispatch, there's really no way to count it up with 72 trucks and 11 shovels.
Thats just what was hauling to us, which was usually only 4 777's. and the foreman for the mine (peabody) said that the trucks were rated at 100 ton. But they had 14 777's there were being loaded by that 5230, and i dont know how many 785's were down in the bottom of the mine hauling coal. It was my first time working around trucks that size, and man they come move a serious amount of dirt in a short period of time. They were striping the 10-20 feet of dirt off of the rock and using it to build the track, we moved 350,000 yards of dirt in 2 weeks.
Little bit of pushloading went on here
Looks kinda like are spread we got sittin now, 15 631's, 3 d10's 6 D8's, 4 D6's, 10 740's, 4 740's with e-ject beds, and 10 john deere 9630's! Soon as we start rockin and rollin ill update with pics every week
And I don't see a single pushcat in the picture!:stirthepot:stirthepot
Clever
I love those one word replies, they mean so much and explain the reasoning for it so well,
We have 3 10's on the job now and all have cushion blades, and im sure we will be getting a few more. Just found out today that we are buying 4 new 627's because they dont think the 623's will be able to get around very well. Id say by the time we are at full force we will have around 75 machines on the job. We already have what i listed above and we havent moved a yard of dirt yet.
http://s369.photobucket.com/albums/oo132/kman9090/?action=view¤t=012.jpg 631G's waiting to go to work
By the sounds of it vapour you wouldnt know sh#t from clay.Just coz you or anyone you know cant do it doesnt mean it cant be done
Probably not worth beating this dead horse but Vapor said back in post #120 he saw 220 loads in one night. Now in a 12 hour shift that would be a load about every 3 min. What, were they getting loaded and driving ahead 50 feet and dumping again?? Maybe he meant 220 loads total between all the trucks.