So a local freight company is looking for bankruptcy protection, I read a article about it a while back. Now more info is coming out, they have a dispute with paccar over downtime/ warranty. Reads like they quit making the payments, because of disagreement about what they were costing to keep on the road, and the dealership repo'd the trucks. Now they need/ want the trucks back. The bankruptcy docs don't give very exact numbers of assets vs liabilities. But the debt load is pretty substantial. https://www.freightwaves.com/news/m...lame-dispute-with-engine-maker-for-bankruptcy
Good you posted that, there is a real issue but some of it is caused by delayed action on the part of truck owners. A company running lets say 40 and has three in the shop and another is having issues but is held back till one of the first three is ready causes a boomerang effect for the company--then all of a sudden it's 6 down. * But with that said----it was a very poor decision on the part of Freightwaves to buy that many with that power plant, it's a known issue. Plus it's never wise to put all the eggs in one basket, a smart way is a trial run on a small amount. A package deal was cut that turned into a can of worms.
Are paccar that much cheaper to spec over cummins cause I have never heard anything good about paccar not that cummins doesn't have issues
Well think about it PacCar has their hands directly on the money valve, not dealing with another party. There are huge incentives and price brakes when buying fleets. This is where the guy buying one or two get full bore they are making up for the big shots.
Aren't the Paccar engines mostly Cummins to start with?
The large Paccar engine (MX13) was based off the DAF engine was it not? I thought Europe was supposed to be lightyears ahead of us in truck technology?
The small ones are like the PX7 and PX9 which is really just a Cummins B6.7 and a C8.9 platform, in fact we used to take them to the Cummins dealer for warranty because the PACCAR dealer was incompetent. But the big ones are some Euro trash that they have slapped a label on and probably screwed up in other ways.
A local fuel hauler here in Ontario Canada has found a loop hole. They are legally replacing their Paccar's with old C15 Cat's. They got a real good mechanic that makes his own wire harnesses. The Cat's pass the emissions test and they are actually getting better fuel mileage now at 140,000 gross. It is illegal to delete but apparently if the truck is 2016 or older you are allowed to do an engine swap as long as the engine meets it's factory emissions for it's year.
Really only two manufactures have built their own successful inhouse power plants, Mack & Freightliner. Edit that -------in very modern times.
I've been hearing good things about the S13 Navistar, which has suprised me. Seems like the only good engines they've ever managed to build were the DT's.
Freightliner? You mean the Detroit engines?
Penske started Development of the Series 60 as far back 1986, by 1988 the 11.1L. Daimler/Freightliner bought the Series 60--then wouldn't let PacCar use it later on. Late 90's. Then Daimler/Mercedes/Freightliner spent a huge pile of dough designing the DD Series mid 2000's. The short & short of it.
Wasn't GM involved in development of the Series 60 to some degree? I seem to recall seeing GM logos on some of the sensors and decals on them.
Didn't GM own Detroit at some point?
GM with it's wonderful idea of a 92 made out of a 71 put them into a spiral, it was called the OO-92. Nothing but a punched 8V71 block and crank and rods fitted with 92 cylinders. The warranty just about killed Detroit-nobody wanted a detroit even after the introduction of the Silver with a 200,000 mile warranty-which was unheard of in those days. It was Basically offered to Roger Penske who then ditched the dinosaur with the introduction of the Series 60 the first electronic. 2 strokes were still built for marine & military, becoming DDEC also. * Alexander Winton started/founded the design in the teens, and later sold it to GM in early 30's. * it was a turd.
So the series 60 was designed by someone else and Detroits parent company bought it and slapped Detroits name on it? That actually makes a ton of sense if ever look at the two strokes and then the s60
My knowledge of the timeline for the Series 60 is a little different than you have TS. Development started in 1980 or 1981. I know the outside contractor who did the air flow development on the cylinder head in 1982 and 1983. The first Series 60 blocks were machined by CBS Boring in Fraser, MI. They had the contract for several years, as Detroit Diesel was still building the 2 cycles. The Series 60 was in production when GM sold a partial interest to Penske in 1988. IIRC after the sale of the rest of Detroit Diesel to Penske, GM tried to sell Allison transmission to ZF, but was prohibited on national security grounds. Rolls Royce eventually ended up with the turbine engine part of Allison (first sold off in 1984) and the transmission products side was bought by private equity. on edit: The Series 60 was designed by Detroit Diesel. GM threw an incredible amount of money at the program given the economy. For those of you old enough to remember, the early 1980's were not a good time. There was a billboard on I94 leaving Detroit saying "Will the last person to leave please turn out the lights". Pretty much all Detroit cars were turds and Japanese cars were kicking the motor city's ***. Detroit Diesel engineers had practiced their designs on a couple of poor engines prior to the series 60, the 1960's Toro-Flow and the 1980's Fuel Pincher. They did get it right finally on the 60.
GM still owwnnned Detroit, Detroit had in the 70's 30% of the engine market, because of the sour ass taste left by the Double OO 92, and sales not rebounding with the Silver 92, Detroit's share dropped from 30% to just less than 5% and that also included the introduction of the Series 60 in late 80's. GM brought Penske on board and he took over the controlling interest 60%, GM owned 40%. It was Penske's job to bring them out of the massive hole that was created--and he had a vested interest. * And you were about a minute ahead T-rex.
1984 is the earliest year I've ever found.
Is Penske the same as the trucking/rental company?
Anything that say Penske on it ----is Penske Corp. Penske Leasing owns more trucks, buys more tires, more of anything vehicle related.
Engine programs take longer than that. A 10,000 hour dyno test is 13 1/2 months just by itself, after every thing has been built. While I don't know, I suspect the project was started in the late '70's when GM still had lots of money to spend. By 1982 if they hadn't had a significant money already in the project it would probably have been shut down. Money was very tight and interest rates were above 20%. The oil companies were the only ones hiring at the time. About half of Detroit moved to Texas. Yes on Penske, Roger Penske, race car driver, team owner, Penske Truck leasing, and also owner of Indianapolis 500 motor speedway.
Sorry T-ReX I disagree with that one, The biggest claim was the short time it took to complete. They didn't have the computer control/module developed yet that would take the heat & shock. It took a few more years for the whole electronic control system to even do constantly what they wanted. There was no electronics in the late 70's or early 80's capable--The engine block and OHC was simple-----making electronic diesel injectors at that time not so much. And serious doubts about a 10,000 hour dyno test, 5 maybe, and 5 complete engines under actual road tests too. * And I base it on my best recollection of talking to a factory series guy during that time.
Mine are also my best recollections as well of conversations that took place 30-40 years ago, when I have problems remembering what my wife asked me to do today. We were talking to people who had felt different parts of the elephant.
Did deere have anything to do with the s60?
Back to Bankruptcy & PacCar.
What about Volvo D12 & D13?
Which brings me around to a situation back in 2007. The original owner of the company I worked for {Tom} traded in 9 2001 Kenworth T800's with roughly 380,000 miles, which all happened to be powered by 3406 6NZ Cats. Tom had a thing about having the latest and greatest, always had a pickup no older than 1.5 years, had his hair trimmed every week, had a 2003 heritage Harley parked in the garage, had a Alumaweld jet boat, both the harley and boat were just for show in his home garage along with a Snap-on box full of tools he never used because he didn't know how. * He traded those 2001's in on 2005 T800's all powered by early ISX Cummins. First it was the rubber shrouding that attached to a hoop for engine fan, the rubber would come loose into fan it went destroying the hoop, radiator and anything around it, all 9 had that happen some twice. Next was the thermostat in the oil cooler that went haywire, all 9. And the constant EGR cooler, EGR issues. And the VGT turbos that took a dump, along with everyone of the U.S. made exhaust manifolds cracking, China stamped were ok. That is just a small list of issues. * Then one Tuesday morning 5 out of the nine ended up in the dealer shops all at once. Tom exploded, he bought 15 new Freightliner Classics with the dreaded Series 60 DDEC-V's EGR VGT. He found a idiot in Kansas luckily that gave him $90K each for those 9 T800's. The word was out about the ISX's and that wheeler dealer in Kansas lost his ass and went under. * The Freightliner Classics were no better--but Tom being Tom bought them and put the company up for sale, which led to the currant owners. They took the bait because they were dyed in the wool Freightliner people. Because of the high boost in the Series 60 {V's} which would hit 50 psi, the engine wouldn't hold a head gasket. In the period of time Gayle and I replaced every radiator twice some three times, then it was at dealer getting new liners or cylinder head. The V-Pod which controlled the VGT would take a dump and it would start barking back through air cleaners. Then little by little those were traded off for the new Cascadia's, which had there issues but nothing like the 800's or the Classics. * So buying trucks in large numbers tends to lead to catastrophic fiscal issues, with major engine failure issues. This is where sampling the doughnuts pays off.
And what anybody wouldn't give now for 2001 T800's with 6NZ Cats that had 380k on them . . .
Yeah I like telling that story---Tom walked right off the cliff.
I have this truck/car with zero issues but it's old, let's trade it in! Probably the best thing about current times less people feel the need for a new vehicle.
Penske cheated in racing early on with acid dipped cars that would dent if you leaned on them. I wonder if he skimped some on engine development and other things? I'd bet yes based on what I've read on here.
Well the 60 series is a legend of its own so I don't think it would matter that somone was cheap in development because the engine was wildly succesful
Correct---so correct--it has out performed everyone's favorite Cat then Cummins by a long ways. Racing----everyone cheats.
I know he is cheating like he'll, 'cause I'm cheating and he is still beating me.
I thought the smaller 60 series had some issues? Could be Penske wanted reliable engines for his fleet so didn't cut corners or challenge the rules like he did in racing. I think it's much harder to cheat in racing now than it was 50+ years ago.
The only real issues with the early models were front housing at cam gear leak and the early ECMs had some issues, and the early jakes. By the time DDECIII rolled around most all of that was taken care of. But even the later diamond seal at front cam seal to cover would still make a mess if not carefully installed. The 14L DDEC III, IV, V, had a issue with rear structure leaking to block mating, only used silicon from factory. But Napa brand {Right Stuff} works real well in that area.
Are the newer DD engines a spin-off of the series 60, or are they a new design. I have a 21 WStar with a DD13 engine. I am old as I ran some 71 series in the 70's and 80's. When some of the guys ask how the DD13 is, I say it's a modern 671, which is not true at all. FWD
Daimler/Mercedes design.
TS, how much commonality is there between the DD13 and DD15?
As in?
Same bore spacing? Accessories like water pump, oil pump? Just curious if similar or completely different engines.
Basically the same, although my main familiarity is DD15-16. Water pumps in two varieties, standard and magnetic drive, you will never be into it for oil pump. starter is same, best to stick with MBI Oem, cables fit up better. Most important--keep dryer cartridge changed out.
Roger Penske. And Penske Racing. And leasing.
Early on, it was said that Deere supplied some cast iron components for series 60. It was mentioned on Ag Talk, so when I got a chance I looked at a couple of engines, and sure enough, on the side of the block there was a JD logo near the casting number. That was a long time ago, and I don’t know if that proves anything, but Uncle John has always had a good reputation for the quality of their foundry’s work. I’d bet that has changed by now, They had developed some 13 litre and bigger engines for their choppers and combines, etc, so there may have some some other connections.