Hey guys. So I'm nearing the end of re packing all my hydraulic cylinders and almost all the hoses on this 580 Super K are in bad shape. At the moment I got one that is leaking I need to replace that goes from the backhoe control valve to the boom. This area has prob 6 or more hoses running all together at the swing pivot area of the hoe. I just yesterday got two hydraulic hoses made up at napa for the extendahoe and had those two hoses cloth covered. The look real nice. The cloth covering was crimped underneath the crimp fitting on each end and not zip tied or some ****. Question for everyone: Is there anything wrong with replacing all my hoses with this cloth covering included? I don't see a issue, except maybe the extra cost... In my opinion, all these hoses have shorter lifespans due to aging in the sun, so protecting them with the cloth cover sounds like a excellent idea! Thanks for the opinions!
Sounds like a good idea. As long as the cloth don't cause the hoses to get snagged on anything.
I've never seen it crimped on. It is usually just added loose as an abrasion resistance measure but it may keep the sun from damaging too. I have sworn off cheap foreign hoses and just have our local Carquest make Gates hoses for me now. I was getting all my hoses made at a shop that specializes in anything hose but some of the Italian stuff they sold me cracked and split in 3 years. They have sold me three different brands of hose and I think the ones that didn't hold up were the only ones made in Italy so maybe the others will last longer.
There is a protective sleeve available now for hydraulic hoses. It is designed to contain the oil in case of a burst hose and not allow it spray everywhere. It is not designed to function as extra abrasion resistance. Usually used in any compartment where there is heat present that could ignite the oil spray from a burst hose. The protective sleeve is crimped to the end fittings of the hose.
Here’s a couple pics of the fittings and the crimped in cover.
I make sure that the hose is safe in all positions. Sometimes it takes a few cycles and on and off the seat to really look at things, and then a really small tweak at the fitting. It is worth it. I also use the big zip ties in figure 8 standoff between pesky hoses that will not leave each other alone. We do that in aviation, and also do the wedge and silicone bed method, where you see the bad spot, put a big dob of silicone between and then add a wood wedge that stays overnight. Take the wedge out the next day and you have a custom bumper standoff. Monitor it and see how it holds up.
Never have seen the cover crimped with the hose ... I like that, if the hose doesn't blow off or leak. The covers I got were held at the fitting with zip ties. When the cloth shrank in the weather, they pulled back exposing the hose. Skyking1 ... good tips , thanks
That looks like the protective sheath I’ve seen, but with a difference. On the hoses I have seen the protective sleeve is crimped on top of the end fitting after the hose has been manufactured. That way if the end fitting crimp lets go the sleeve is still there to contain the oil flow. On the hose in the photo if the hose separates at the end fitting it will still blow oil everywhere. https://ch-part.com/i.caterpillar/i07233873/
The stuff I've used was made of kevlar and did provide abrasion resistance. I would never include the material inside the crimp on fitting. The fittings are made to clamp onto the inside mandril to a specified depth. Anything more and you risk damaging the inside liner of the hose or the possibility of the hose failing at the crimp. We always zip tied the stuff at the small end of the fitting just past the crimp if possible. The kevlar cover won't contain the oil that leaks out. It will cut down the spray atomization possibly preventing a fire.
The sheathing that I use to buy had a quantity of narrow width band clamps included. When properly clamped in place the OD of the clamp (usually) didn't prevent the hose from going back into tight places. But you had to be aware of the position of the fitting when installing the clamp, even though they were pretty small they could interfere in tight areas. This was before the days of cheap high strength zip ties. I don't ever recall seeing it placed inside the sleeve before crimping.
Mine aren't crimped and are made of fire hose with zip ties on the ends. I expect they assists in delaying sun damage and would delay any spray if they break.
@John C. , I had one of those bad cramps from a Cat dealer. Had a leaky hoe pack hose, drove just a couple minutes over to NC in the valley. The parts guy said hey they showed me how to do this the other day! He handed me over the hose, I drove back up the hill in Kent put it on. I pushed the pedal the hose blew off immediately and there was this perfect outline of a dry spot where this guy was up in the seat. I was completely covered as was the back of the back hoe. On inspection I could see that he got the hose about a quarter inch into the fitting stepped on the pedal and called it good!
Says it does though.......
Having the Kevlar protection on the extenda hoe hoses is a good move as for the rest like skyking1 said make sure the rest aren't rubbing and they'll last for years.
I wouldn’t dispute that, but abrasion resistance was not the original reason why it was designed. It was to comply with Australian Standard MGD41 for hose bursting protection.
Only thing that should be under the fitting crimp should be the hose. If you don't like the zip tie method to hold on the hose cover get an oetiker or SUR&R one ear hose clamp kit and crimp em over the fittings.
Maybe they only inserted the cover a little bit into the fitting.
I agree on the Gates hoses. Our local NAPA went to Weatherhead hose years ago and the outer rubber layer was spiral wrapped on and within no time in the sun the rubber would start to crack along the joints of the spiral and let rain water in then the hose would be bad and a lot of the hoses that were on equipment that sat outside wouldn't last much longer than a year. Any way I always felt like the cloth covering would help defend the rubber from the sun and I'm sure it will but it ultimately starts with a quality hose.
The cover is NOT supposed to be in the crimp and I wouldn't trust that for ****. That's what happens when you have someone that doesn't have experience in building hoses....build hoses. The crimps are done to a specific measurement and that cover material has thrown that out of whack. It wont last long.
This is what I bought, it's sitting at the UPS facility waiting on me to get home to put it on. It says to use zip ties or band clamps, not crimping it. https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydra...-Hydraulic-Hose-Protec-NHS-153-9-12496-12.axd Just bought $750 worth of hoses myself to replace all on my backhoe, next will be FEL.
One of the hydraulic facilities that I buy hoses at, measures the finished crimp with a micrometer.
My local Carquest built my last hose and had to reuse one of the fittings off the old hose. He told me no guarantee since their chart only gave crimp parameters for Gates hose and fittings. He calculated how far to go using the diameter of the fitting and hose ID and crimped a little at a time and measuring with calipers. So far it has been fine. Cost was half of a factory hose and done while I waited. I did have to make two trips because I cut the old hose and the fittings needed to be clocked. He assembled the hose and fittings without crimping. I went home and put it on the hoe and marked the end positions with a grease stick. Took it back and got it crimped.
So ya i had a suspicion that it wasnt normal for the protective cover to be crimped underneath. Seemed pretty neat looking but just not designed to do so. i went ahead and talked to a guy named Kieth at gates in product development engineering and he told me that “no, that cover shouldnt be crimped underneath” So im gonna go back to napa and have them re make this hose and ill just zip tie the protective cover on after. Thanks! Good think i havent put this extendahoe back together yet!
If you have installed and it's not leaking, I wouldn't worry about it. Might go 20 years that way.
We have a gates hose maker where I work, every size hose has a specific squish pressure that involves a die that makes the crimp inside an outer cone and the extra material inside the fitting will interfere with the crimp on the crucial part of the fitting,the barb...I have made hundreds of hoses and would not trust the one they gave you....That sure looks like a Gates crimp to me...
I have a firewood processor that has a bunch of hoses on it, and every hose has the fabric protective cover crimped under the fitting. Came from the factory that way. Haven’t had a problem yet...
Well, IDk. I'm gonna have these put back together in two days so if there are more opinions on whether I should take them back or not, please speak up. I guess my main concern is not a instant failure, of course that would suck taking the extendahoe back off... but its a failure in a year or two. At $120 bucks for both hoses, I'll be pissed if they don't last me longer than 5 or more years (this is just a backyard hoe lol).
You sound like you have authority on this, so I'll prob still take them back, but part of me wants to experiment a bit and see how long they last...
Are they long enough that the fittings could be cut off and replaced properly ?
Tinkerer, prob not, but IDK I just gave them the old ones to match up. If I take them back, I kinda dont care about re using anything, I'm just going to ask them to remake with new everything...
I wouldn't hesitate to use them there's inserts the hose is squeezed against and the thickness of the shielding would be insignificant.
I'm not an authority on hoses brother, just telling what I have seen, I installed the kevlar sleeve on all my dipper/hoe bucket lines for the abrasion protection...At $120 for both lines you got a pretty good price, especially with the wrap, too bad it's tucked into the fitting.....hopefully the "boss" at the place ya got 'em has a brain and remedies the issue...
If the die can't get a good squish due to all the extra foreign material in the fitting, it just may be an issue, especially for the poor sucker standing next to the hoe when it pops... just sayin...
Different application man, probably the setup Nige was referring to..Maybe uses a different type of fitting and different sleeve, but those in the photo don't look legit to me...
The ribs and the grip is on the inside of the hose right? I think you'll be alright.
I never use auto parts stores for hoses, just cause billy got shown the crimper and makes a hose or two when he isn't asking make, model year and is it 4x4??? Doesn't mean he's qualified people None of em here check crimps, clean the hoses or cap em. I'm ask my weatherhead hose rep if I can crimp spiral wrap under the fittings and see if I can freak him out next time I see him
OP didn't get spiral wrap protection. He got a fabric covering. I'd like to know how Weatherhead views that or how do they recommend securing the fabric to the fitting.
Well here's how Cat recommend doing it on their hoses. Note the sleeve is run right over the top of the crimped fitting up to the end, folded over, and secured with a separate steel band. All this is done after the hose itself has been assembled. Also I note that the latest version of the document intrducing the protection sleeves (also attached) makes no reference to increased abrasion resistance. My 2c is that if those hoses had been made for me then I would be taking them back. There is no way IMO the crimp on the hose can be correct when the folded-over sleeve is sandwiched in between the hose and the fitting that is supposed to be crimped tight to the O/D of the hose.
Exactly.
I wouldn’t worry about it.. like I said I have a large firewood processor that has been in use for a long time. Every hose on the machine (there’s a lot of them) has the fabric cover crimped under it from the factory. I would think if one was going to fail I would have seen it by now.
Lol it's called a joke.
How about somebody with Cat reusable fittings equipment puts pieces of metal and plastic in the crimp because their non Cat hose is a smaller diameter? How about when it's on the fittings for the main hyd. supply going to the control valve? Had to lay under the machine in 60 litres of oil on soft ground to take it apart and repair it. That's after I wrestled the belly pan off due to it sinking in the soft ground. Hoe stabilizers were down so no way to even pull it out with a bigger machine. All the machines I've seen new from the factory with the kevlar sleeve have it crimped with its own fittings over the hyd. crimps.
My one rep said crimping fabric under the fitting was a crazy idea.
It is crazy. The biggest thing to remember when putting a sleeve on a hose is to make it long enough. If it's just long enough with the hose straight it will pull and be short if the hose has to curve.
Darn right ...Before I knew better, I left the hose place happy as a clam. A week later the fabric shrank leaving my hose looking like Steve Urkel and high water pants.
Alot of the outer crimp collars have serrations in them also to grip the hose. If its griping a cloth cover...............NO BUENO!