I’m not looking to make this political. Just don’t ok? I’m wondering if / how the executive order signed back in July of last year has effected anyone of us? I’ve been watching the right to repair thing for awhile now, and as a tiny independent operation, it has implications for me. If I can get the software to work on JD equipment, that opens up a possible revenue stream. Can we get Service Advisor now? Does a license cost $50K? What are some of you guys seeing out there?
I'm pretty sure Deere and others just ignored it. Or did something meaningless and lied that it was complying. I can't seem to find that news story at the moment.
Right to repair is kind of a funny thing when it comes to Deere. Right to repair came from the after market electronics industry so they could fix a stereo or some other piece of consumer goods. The farmers jumped on Deere with it because of Deere's screwball position that only they could touch anything electronic on a machine that they produced. I have a logging client with a fleet of Hitachi excavators that are handled by the Deere dealer who shut off their customer troubleshooting software. I don't know if that was a Deere thing or a Dealer thing. The forestry side of the issue didn't seem to be a problem until a few months ago but may be going the way of the ag industry. I don't see anything less than a court case to change Deere's practice of denying access. Just to play devils advocate, what I believe the farmers want is access to bump up horsepower thereby possibly putting Deere in the cross hairs of government regulations for exceeding pollution standards. The rest of the manufacturers prevent access to their engine performance algorithms to prevent that. It is my understanding that Deere is using pollution standards to prevent basic troubleshooting on their tractors and combines. Does anyone know if that is true?
The official line for those in favor of right to repair, regarding Deere, is that they will have breakdowns during harvest and other critical times, and need help diagnosing. Then they replace some part. Then the computer needs to be reset/recalibrated to accept said new part, or to tell it that the fault condition is fixed. Since they can't get the software they need, they are at the mercy of the dealer, who is always several weeks out. Several weeks means they could be bankrupt. I think the increased HP thing is a straw man set up by Deere and similar, although it certainly is possible. But some of this stuff is things like recalibrating position sensors in lift arms on the back of the tractor. Everything is run by a computer these days, not just the engine. Besides that, even with full dealer software on any normal level, you are allowed to do things like reset DPF and injector codes, but not to re-rate the HP. That is, and will remain, secret squirrel stuff. The main focus is giving the average Joe the ability to do normal repairs, and then reset some sort of software lockout that happened because of the failure.
Yes you can. Service Advisor can be purchased from the dealer, which involves filling out a Customer Service Advisor 5 request form. The dealer then also decides the level of access. Manuals only or connectivity ability. The connection ability will not allow controller programming. That can only be done by the dealer. You could look into EPC Catalogs as well (see link). https://www.epcatalogs.com/john-deere-service-advisor-5.2-2017-construction-and-foresty-equipment/ Exactly the issue. For years you could perform dealer level troubleshooting with aftermarket programs like Texa with the exception of controller programming.
Can you do that on Ag tractors and combines?
IIRC, Deere's initial stance was, "we want to protect our brand", and it's since changed to "we need to protect the environment", supposedly against horsepower happy hillbillies who want to roll coal while harvesting. I may have that backwards - they may have opened with the environmental thing, then moved to the brand thing. While I am quite certain there is a portion of their customers who just want to watch their pistons burn, most of the folks I have run into just want their machine to work. I've turned people away because I can't touch a JD. I also hate messing with computers and codes and all that in general, so I'm not terribly inclined to that anyway. I'll try to stay abreast of it
Also, conceited green is concerned with vehicle speed. Machines like IVT tractors and hydrostatic combines are capable of much higher ground speeds than their software limits. Deere charges something like $20K extra for a tractor that will go 32 mph vs. 26 mph. The difference merely being a software setting. Don't want that revenue stream to dry up. deere employees are generally some of the most conceited people I've ever met.
Just a side note. My Deere dealer, Valley Truck and Tractor was recently bought out by Papé. Valley was always pretty good to me. I wonder how Papé will be.
Have they taken over the whole west coast now. Washington, Oregon, Northern California before, how far south now?
Cummins is playing the same sort of game only they approach it from the warranty end. For example if you buy a turbocharger from Cummins for lets say a ISX, said turbo cost is $6,700 with no warranty. If a independent shop installs it a 90 day warranty if Cummins installs it then it has a national warranty of 2 years. On most parts for the owner there is no warranty if he installs.
I have the option that most don't have, and that is to never buy a Deere again. I won't miss them.
Around here on tractor it's Pape', Equipment Western States.
Several around here switched to Case IH.
We have seen here, time after time. My xxxx is throwing a code or, I believe my xxxx ain't working right. I wanna defeat this or that. I want to trick the computer. Instead of troubleshooting and correcting root cause, they want to change parts to older more simple design, that won't tell them something is wrong. It won't respond the way they want. But the dealer and mfr are jag- offs because they didn't authorize the software access. The other risk is, some of these farmers don't know what they are doing. They may start an uncontrolled fire by resetting a DPF trying to regenerate when it's already saturated. There's so much that could go wrong.
Caterpillar won't let me do anything emissions but, I have no problem with that. I can do everything else.
Dealers make or break that my dealer is not the most helpful with anything for cat Now the deere dealer treats me ok if I call in for simple information otherwise its bring it in but I have been beating on deere for 2 years about reliability and in the last group I participated in out of 6 guys 2 of us wanted access to service advisor without paying an arm and a leg while the other 4 didn't care cause they make the dealer do all there service work they wont touch it so its 2 different mindsets Self performed repair work took a backseat in construction with electronics and equipment adopted the consume and discard approach to iron so the market is geared to that and if your under 10 machines that doesnt leave a lot of money in your pocket to always have payments
We are a long way from any dealer, like an hour or more on high speed roads. A lot of Deere in my industry (power gen). I have yet to come to the job where I could not fix it by hook or by crook, but the hours I spend scratching my head to figure out how to do it without the computer either come out of billable hours or they get billed to the customer, or I guess the third option is to call the dealer mechanic which I have not had to do, yet. I think I may try renting a laptop from one of the third party companies if it comes to that.
I've been told it's 4 lines of code to change to a different factory fuel map with the right software. I know a farmer that doesn't have the software, but puts a tuner on all his 4WDs. Buys 400's and bumps them up to 600.
My boss has 18 of the 6 series tractors and 3 little deere wheel loaders on the road in the winter. The reason is around here deere keeps the resale the best and there service is far better then anyone else. For us since we push snow its a need it now type of thing so service is the most important.
They were always here it's just that Papé had the construction side and Valley had the ag side. Now I guess it's Papé or nothing. When I worked in Central Oregon, they had the Cat dealership there. Seemed strange to see them with Deere all over everything nowadays.
I don't know if Deere AG dealers offer a customer version. EPC Catalogs offers an AG version though. In the end I don't see the big deal in allowing any customer, contractor or farmer, access to diagnostic software. No different than the auto business with the tools available to work on them. However, I do agree with the manufacturers on not allowing software reprogramming.
One of the issues is the construction and ag brands aren’t using common communication protocols. Auto industry has OBD-II, and has since 1996. Volume of cars (huge) plus a universal protocol means there is a viable aftermarket to make cheap tools and software that works…mostly…with some exceptions needing different brands of scanners or factory tools. Closest thing the diesel world has is J1939 which isn’t used for everything plus manufacturers are introducing advanced stuff like Ethernet and so on. And nobody uses a universal connector design…Cat alone has at least two different connectors in service (three if you count the connector for the clicker box) some of it is undoubtably manufacturers being butts about it just cause, some of it is definitely emissions concerns, which the fed .gov just LOVES to screw everybody they can on. As we all know you can buy third party diesel software like Texa that does some of what you need but the current best solution is manufacture software and adapters which if you had to buy it for the cars it would cost a pretty penny as well. the only thing right to repair would mean is you get a chance to buy the manuals and software and connector to repair your machine from the manufacturer, most likely through the dealer. And it can be a hobbled version of the software that doesn’t do the updates or changing settings it can be a glorified code reader. Those expecting to get the software for free, which many seem to do, are going to be disappointed.
I'll use an example from recently. Propane fueled engine, electronically controlled. Engine runs a random time then shuts down for no reason. Show up and can easily plug laptop into ECM with CANBUS device. Can see fault code list, fault is for TPS different (two poteniometers running opposed on the throttle) more than 20%. Can read TPS numbers from a screen easily and see that they are approaching 20% diff so we know they are not lying. Order part, replace, easy peasy. Total cost of diagnostics equipment, less than a grand. Use my own laptop. It does not have to be so hard except "they" want to make it hard.
You can get the troubleshooting stuff from the monitor panel on all the construction and logging machines that I have looked at that were less then five years old. Can you do that on the ag machines? I have yet to see a time that I couldn't fix a machine when I was able to get information that was provided by the codes and I had some type of translator to tell me what the codes meant. Current production machines even tell you what the codes are. Can that be done on ag machines?
When did that happen?.. been a minute since I’ve needed Deere parts... What about the Deere dealer in yuba city?
We got a letter in the mail around the end of the year. Yuba City was/is my store too. Parts guy named Guneet Singh, very helpful.
Looks like United Equipment has taken over all the Deere Agricultural and Construction Dealerships in New England.
Fault codes on the display are better than nothing. But everything is so expensive. So you would like to be able to see exactly what is happening. If it says rail pressure low, then you would like to see when the rail pressure is low. Does it stay low all the time or dip down? Is it the pressure control valve or the sender or the pump? Or the ECM? What duty cycle is the PCV running at? Are there historic fault codes or other things coming close to setting a code? Not to mention the things that absolutely must be done with a laptop such as certain types of forced regen, or replacing coded parts such as injectors. All this info is available but it should not cost $1000 for a dongle with 3 connectors and 5 chips that you could buy on ebay, and $7000 for a laptop with software that will run it, and have to get mother Deere's permission and shell out $$$ to keep using it every year. That is another thing, if Farmer Bob wants to be prepared and gets the software and hardware set up, for his tractor, and it works on year 0, he should be able to continue using it to work on that same tractor for the life of the tractor. He doesn't need the latest and greatest software updates, he just needs it to keep working the way it did when it was new, the same as if he bought special tool DZ10029039432 for seal replacement, he does not need to renew a subscription on that tool if another seal goes out 5 years from now.
I'm just wondering what Farmer Bob has access to in the first place. Does he get a diagnostics screen at all?
There should be a sticky on the main page. A place where folks share the secret handshake that allows you into the service screens. It sounds simple, but if you don't know what button to push while you stand on your head rubbing your belly, you don't have access to service menus. Now John C has gone to the next level with YouTube videos explaining how to get the most out of Komatsu instrument panels. We kinda need something like that across the board for all makes.
Any on road aftermarket is nothing more than code reader, the only things that can be reprogramed is top speed and cruise, idle time, but on freightliner you can set in the cab with nothing more than a index finger and bring up the trouble codes. I haven't upgraded any because of that.
McCoy Equipment bought out ERB Eq. Deere Construction side here, Sydenstricker and Nobbe two of MO Largest dealers have partnered where who knows where that will end up, control about 3/4 of MO Deere AG side.
deere has told all of their dealership owners they are either a buyer or a seller, mother deere doesn't care which. deere doesn't want customers to be able to shop between stores. You can't buy deere equipment from anyone other than the dealer that owns your territory, or deere withholds all the marketing money on that unit. If you are a small customer and get crosswise with your area dealer, you are just SOL. If you are a large customer, deere will either broker a truce, or allow you to use another dealer.
Just found this: https://www.courthousenews.com/john...ng-tractor-repair-industry-in-antitrust-suit/
I don't know who Heritage Tractor bought out, but they've got a big chunk of MO south of I70 now. I remember when it was just one store in Baldwin and that was 20 years ago.
I really, really liked my older Deeres. And Doyle Equipment. I've got 25k hr 544GTC machines. TC54H 544J The H and J all had teething pains, but I could never get the H right. It went away. Still have the Js. But, Murphy took Doyle, and they charge 15-18% over list price for all parts. So, giving Deere another chance, we incorporated in another territory and got a 544K from another network. Aside from the FIVE months, under warranty, where it COULDN'T be fixed, it's been a "decent" machine. In other words, screw Deere. And I'm not even talking about the steering issues, brake issues, harness issues, injection pump, egr issues, paint and rust issues...My Komatsu and Cat loaders have been far more reliable and those dealers don't charge me 18% over list price.
Deere's philosophy, make the shareholders money. Control the customers markets so they can't go anywhere else. Also according to Deere's sales agreement when you purchase equipment, you are buying the rights to use the software in the controllers, Deere still maintains ownership of the software. Therefore, your cannot legally modify the software. Deere's lawyers are very well paid. Their user agreements are very far reaching. I know several corporate Deere employees. They sign agreements when hiring on, that any ideas they come up with while employed(product changes, updates, better management, how to manage customers, etc.), are Deere's property. Deere owns their souls!
Every year, we see this come up. California farmers were the first ones, I believe. Now, I think it's all farmers collectively and some guys in the dirt side. It's always the same name, Deere. I don't think this is gonna go any further than it has in the past. They have the EPA on their side. That's it, that is the end of the story. For decades we've been getting away with mods to cars and trucks with the help of SEMA. Last year the EPA pushed hard to rescind that right. But we are limited to non-highway use. Until you can "roll yer own " software package with EPA approval, you will continue to 'borrow' software from the mfr .
We're not asking to modify anything over here. All we want is to be able to see sensor values when troubleshooting a problem. And program simple values such as reset DPF or update injector codes when changed. Without paying a grand for a box with 5 blinky lights and 3 simple connectors. And groveling to the increasingly consolidated dealer network to allow us to purchase software for several grand more that requires subscriptions. For the same equipment we worked on before, that is getting older and older.
BV, I agree with you. I was just pointing out that the EPA is backing Deere in their "right" to the software in your customers machines. Since the EPA seems to have as much authority as a DNR officer looking for a poacher, it's gonna be an uphill battle. I have never had opportunity to work on full-blooded Deere products. I have worked on some engines in screeners but they had Murphy displays which would give me generic information. Anything more than basic faults and sensors, we would call the dealer tech. It seems to be "the way"
Someone said it best earlier, we dealt with this in the early 90's in the automotive world, the right to repair act made information available to the aftermarket like snap-on and OTC and Mitchell on demand. Mitchell on demand is 3k a year, and a good scanner is 10k. In automotive you have dealers, Independants and homeowners, right to repair kind of left the homeowners out because of cost of purchasing equipment. 25 years later the homeowner has some other avenues because of the internet. In Industrial applications you have the truck market and the equipment market. Issues with emissions seems to be the catalyst for any of these markets issues with diagnostics. As an independent Technician in these markets it is difficult to have multiple makes to keep up with, and expensive to have information and technology for every thing because their is no one supplier.
As the labor market tightens for real mechanics something Is going to give because dealer wait times for service are getting bigger let's not talk about parts on the shelf so when I have a machine that's under warranty that takes months to fix and I cant use it you have grounds to push way back Dealers have a lot of pull and believe me deere has a lot of customers railing against there dealer network right now cause there is no competition really witch means they dont have to perform like the automotive world would But I do know the dealers have been a big part in why it's the way it is because they pay a license and subscription as well to deere as well and they dont want there revenue stream cut because customers can easily access information and the absolute last thing any oem wants is to have there dealer network side with the customer so the dealers have been conditioned to charge an outrages amount for service to offset what they pay deere Another thing that really surprised me is that you would not believe how many big customers have similar problems as the little guy from dealers but there account managers have more incentive to get it rectified than they do for the little guy the corporate dealers dont even see big companies in times like these so the whole situation sucks because of the size of these corporations
Local AG dealer is into Lease Options now, Figured out really quick is NOT a boon to their bottom line as when a machine goes down, they are responsible to provide a Loaner(At NO Cost) according to these contracts, Loaners go down they too must be replaced with another loaner. Yard up in Macon has fourteen NEW Combines, ALL are loaners for the Lease units they have out, rotate them often enough to have a driver on standby during harvest and a machine already loaded. Tractors same way as Cropland Prep and Planting began last fall, are losing major money to Loaner machines per the shop manager Here. Even Purchased units with extensive warranties are under same context, cannot fix it NOW, loaner AT NO CHARGE comes out. Trades are becoming at near end of warranty schedule so losing money there too. Little guys as I, are buying 10-20-30 year old machines and fixing them ourselves, we do know that will end at some point as do the dealers.
As far as equipment choices, ag has few choices compared to dirt. If you want a most popular sized 300+ horsepower row crop tractor, you basically have red or green. Maybe you include silver (Fendt). If you want a 20 ton class track hoe, you have what, 6 or 8 choices, depending on what dealers are around?
Most of the dealers in my area take the trades on a contingency or agreement with the auction companies. The auction company sets the value. The trade only stays on the dealer lot a certain number of days and then the auction gets it. If it sells while on the dealer's lot for more so be it. If not the auction company pays the agreed amount and takes the machine. Even the Cat dealer only wants to take consignments now. A trade only gets shoved down their throats by a heavy hitter. Really, there are few people left that know how to make money on trade in machines. The next generation doesn't have the stomach for them so they push them on someone else or just say no. As far as parts prices go, most are set up on a matrix which means that the more pieces sold, the more the price automatically goes up. Good parts managers also know their markets. If they have the last of anything, it's going to be expensive.
Link please?
That's where having or finding a dealer parts department that you can buy from on a steady basis works best. If I need something that's in high demand or limited supply and I find it at another dealer I don't normally use I call my regular and have them get it ordered and drop shipped for their price.
Here's a link to one video of his, from here you can bookmark his page.
This one will give you all of them. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9ZtvgWG-EtmGZhvtMeBMEQ/videos There are more there than just monitor panels.
If I ever come across a time machine I'm going back and doing a remove EPA lol
Thanks guys.