I just bought my first truck with a road ranger. I did my driving course with one but that was about 10 years and I haven't driven one since. I bought a 1980 ford louisville LNT8000 tipper and the previous owner told me he replaced the gearbox with a s/h one at some point. Its a fifteen speed with deep reduction and then low range and high range. I'm having trouble changing down from high range to low range. If we forget about the deep reduction and call 1st gear in low range gear 1. I'm having trouble changing down from gear 7 (high range) to gear 5 (low range). There is no problem changing up from 5 to 7. I flick the range switch to high when in gear and move the stick, no clutch, no problem. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it I should do the same procedure in reverse to get from 7 to 5. But something is not happening right because I can't get from 7 to 5 without crunching sounds coming from beneath me. I've been trying to use the clutch, so in gear 7 I flick the range switch down then put the clutch in, move the stick to neutral, but when I let the clutch out there is a crunching sound. and then I can't seem to find a gear without slowing right down to a walking pace. Am I doing something wrong? I haven't tried to engage the deep reduction while moving but it does seem to work while stationery. I live in a very hilly area and I think I will need it to get up these hills with a load. What is the procedure for changing into deep reduction while moving? Thanks for your advice
The range change unit on a road ranger has a syncromesh unit to engage high or low range. When the syncro rings are worn out you hear grinding noises as the range change is taking place. To repair the back section of the gearbox has to be pulled off and the syncro unit replaced. Just in case, check that the air hoses for the air shift are not kinked or blocked restricting the flow of air to the range change unit. Some of them also had some sort of screen or filter on the transmission air lines. Some of the drivers on the forum may be able to give some tips about whether it is possible to work with a worn out range change syncro by matching the engine revs somehow.
I really hate to say this to anybody, but, I think you are describing bad synchronizers. To check, get the truck moving, shift up to high range, flip the switch down, then, without using the clutch, move the stick to neutral. Don't try to put the stick in a gear, just let the truck coast. If you get a grinding sound then, you are going to have to rebuild the rear section of your transmission. If you flip the switch back up, the grinding will probably stop. If you find the tag on your trans. and post the model number, we will be able to give you a little more specific help. It should be a number something like RT14615a, or something similar. Make sure you get all the numbers and letters right. Good Luck, Mitch
thanks for the news guys, I will get the number over the weekend and post it here. Cheers, Nick
Do I just follow the air lines from the stick to the box? they are all exposed so it shouldn't be a problem. if I find a filter should I pull it off and try to clean it out?
The air lines from the gear lever will go to a relay valve and then bigger air hoses to the shift units. I just thought it worth checking as a long shot, before declaring that it is a worn syncro unit and having to pull the back half of the transmission to bits. Its easy and cheap to check the simple things first. I replaced a syncro unit several years ago on a road ranger in an Izusu truck and I think it cost around $1,000. Mitch504 sounds like more of a specialist so he might be better for detailed info. I would be interested if anyone knows of any way of driving to work with a worn out range change syncro, or if it is just not possible.
Thanks Plant Fitter, I would be very interested in information like that too. I will try Mitch's test of moving the stick to neutral without the clutch on Sunday and see what happens.
You can open the Range shift cylinder on the back of the tranny it has an O ring on the piston clean it and the cylinder walls.I did this a few times was having the same problems and this cleared it up.
Thanks 2stickbill, that sounds very promising. Is this cylinder hard to find? how big is it? what should I clean it with? Methylated spirits or something like that?
I don't ever remember seeing the filter,lines or cylinder causing a grinding noise, but, I'd sure never say my not remembering something means it couldn't happen.:beatsme Usually, the air system will produce a slow range shift, or none at all. A quick way to check the air system is to build full air pressure, shut the truck off, put the stick in neutral, and simply flip the range selector back and forth. It should produce a quick, crisp, CLACK, CLACK, back and forth as it shifts. If it has a long lag time, or is mushy sounding, it is a problem in the air shift system. If you believe you have an air problem, I would first build air pressure, shut the truck off and crawl under it. Listen first for any significant air leaks, then look at and feel the air lines associated with the transmission for crimps and melted spots. I would then wash the filter as it is a more common problem than the cylinder, and is supposed to be done once a year or so as a maintenance item anyway. If the filter is kept clean, it should protect the cylinder. (By the way, you have drained the air tanks since you got the truck, haven't you? If you didn't find 3 drain valves, look for a plug in the bottom of a tank where a valve was removed. Not all trucks have 3 drains, but most do.) Drain the tanks before removing the filter as it can go flying or tear o-rings if you don't. If you look at the back of the transmission, you will see, usually at the upper right, a 4x4" or so cylinder sticking off the back of the transmission. It should have a bunch of lines connected to it. The air pressure regulator for the trans. is usually on the back cap of the cylinder. If you look at the regulator, you should see a hex plug on the top. It usually takes a 1.5" wrench. Unscrew that plug, and under it you will find a sintered brass filter, about 5/8" x 1.25". Pay attention to which end is up, as the filter is tapered. I usually moisten a rag w/ some alcohol or light penetrating oil (WD-40 if y'all have that), and wipe out the inside of the filter housing. Then you can wash the filter w/ about anything. I usually put my finger in one end and run some water in the other, it should flow freely. When I find a clogged one, I wash it w/ whatever it takes to get it clean, then wash it w/ soap and water to keep from putting solvents into your air system, where they can harm o-rings. I would put the filter back and try the test again before removing anything else. If the filter was clogged, you may have to flip the switch 10 or 12 twelve times w/ full air pressure and the stick in neutral to clear things out. If you get a good crisp clack, go drive the truck and see if things have changed. The cylinder the filter/regulator was mounted on is the cylinder Bill was talking about. Your transmission may be set up slightly differently, but most roadrangers are set up this way. That's why I wanted the model number, so I could look in a book before giving detailed answers. Everytime I have heard a grinding noise when shifting ranges one way, but a good shift the other, it has been the synchronizers, but I learn things everyday. Please let us know what you find out. Oh, by the way, for us flatlanders, it is possible to drive the truck by just never flipping the range selector down unless you are going very slowly. Be glad it is your low range synchronizers, and not the high range ones. Good Luck, Mitch
This answer depends on what sort of gear ratios you have in the transmission and rear end. We had one truck that would do what I think you are describing, grind horribly on the shift from high to low. It was a 10 speed with a 5.14 rear I think. The point is, with this truck you typically started off in 4th gear and went immediately to high side so you never really needed to flip back to low while driving. I would just leave it in high range until the truck came almost to a dead stop and flip it to low just before the wheels stopped turning. (If you flipped it to low after stopping sometimes it would not fully engage low resulting in no movement once the light turned green, embarassing.) This problem is now fixed. I speculate that the transmission may have had the wrong oil in it. I do not think it had any internal work done as I would have known about it, but its possible. We have an outside shop that is good about finding problems as they develop and fixing them for us. Anyway, just an idea to maybe help you make money and not spend it until you get some more jobs completed.
Thanks Mitch, sorry I haven't got back out there yet to get the model number. It's now looking like monday when I'll get back to look at it. There is some very small air leaks so the tanks are usually drained by the morning. These leaks were too quiet to hear in the industrial yard where I bought the truck, I can just hear them ay my relatively quieter house. I've only found the release valve on one of the tanks. Thanks for the tip to drain the tanks first, I wouldn't have thought of that! From memory it does click up and down in neutral with the truck off,perhaps there was a slight delay. but I will double check on monday. Birken, I have no idea what sort of gear ratios I have. I know its a 15 speed and in the top gear it only gets up to 80km/h I guess that would be about 50mph. And thanks for the suggestion of making it instead of spending it, that exactly what I need!!
If I remember correctly a 15 speed is like a 10 speed except it has an additional deep reduction on it. I reread Mitch's comments and he said the same thing before I did. So it seems to me that with that low of a gear ratio, you could probably easily just avoid shifting from high to low except when barely moving, and save your pennies up for a better repair later, so long as it has the right oil in it now.
Which oil would you recommend?
It's been a while since I drove the old school 15 speeds but from memory I used to start in 2 deep and then shift to 2 low, to avoid going into 1st low, which was a bit uncomfortable to get into. However the shift from 2 deep to 2 low was not 500 revs, more like 800, so if you are goona drive the truck using only deep and high you have to aware that the revs need to be altered when going from 5 deep to 1st high (in other words you want to go from 5th to 11th if you count all the gears) however deep reduction is not another range insofar that you go 1-5 deep and then 1-5 low and then 1-5 high. Deep reduction is more a half range, perhaps think of it in the way that you can shift 1,2,3 deep and then go to low to keep within the 500 rev range. It's hard to explain in words, far easier to show in truck but going by a vague memory you would need to shift 1-5 deep, rev the guts out of the motor, which is no big deal on the V8's and then drop at least 800 revs to get into 1st high (in order to avoid low range). Going back down is going to be a bit easier, as you can slow the engine right down in 1st high and then give it a fair few revs to get into 5 deep. This may be of help http://www.roadranger.com/rr/Produc...missions/OtherTransmissions/PCT_308982#tabs-2
Far out, this truck must have been set up for some specialised job, like carting bitumen or water cart?
I have seen a few dump trucks set up this way, particularly w/ low horsepower engines. The only problem w/ using the deep reduction as an alternative to low range is that you have to go into low range before you can get into the deep gears. His original problem is that he can't get into low range while moving in high.
LN8000 with Cat 3208 goes 80km/hr @ about 2400 rpm. LNT8000 is probably similar. 30 years ago, a lot of people were happy going that fast. LNT9000's go a bit faster.
Any roadrangers that I have driven, you change gears at 1500 rpm, which works fine if you have an engine which has plenty of power at relatively low rpm. How does a 3208 perform with a roadranger? Really to get any sense out of a 3208 you have to be running between about 1800rpm and 2500rpm. Does that make it hard to change gears? How do you do it? Do you have to run a gear to say 2500rpm and then when you change rev it up to 2000rpm to get the next gear?
The cylinder is on the back of tranny.Round has 4 bolts if I remember right.I used a spray cleaner and fine emory cloth.Piston has O ring that can be changed.Cheap fix if this is the problem. You might want to get some one to show you where this cylinder is.Hard to explain on here.
I have one in a service truck behind a 3208. It shifts just fine, and I keep it limited to under 2300 r's. A trans that drops 500 rpm at 1500 between gears will drop a bit over 700 at 2300. This keeps you where you need to be.
I wasn't sure about that, as I have never tried skipping low range, so what happens if you inadvertently try to get into deep whilst the box is still in high? Will it just refuse to shift the range or is there the possibility of expensive noises occuring?
You're probably aware that WA is a big place and doing 80 on a long haul would suck, however yeah in a tipper situation doing local work 80 would be OK. Guess in 1st deep it would be barely moving.
http://www.roadranger.com/ecm/group...roadranger/documents/content/rr_trsm-0515.pdf Hang on this is for the 15 speeds I think http://www.roadranger.com/ecm/group...roadranger/documents/content/rr_trsm-0525.pdf Loads of info on the Eaton site. And if you are not sick of reading http://www.wellertruck.com/pdf/tsupp/EatonTS/Lightning Troubleshooting.pdf
Thanks for the link Hendrik, this was taken from the 15spd operators manual. CAUTION: Never move the Deep Reduction Lever/Button to the "IN"/ FORWARD position with the Range Preselection Lever UP in the HI Range position OR at any time while the transmission is operating in HI Range. I got out there for a little bit yesterday and did that check that Mitch suggested for the air shift system. Air tanks full, engine off, stick in neutral. Moving the high/low range selector it doesn't seem to be very quick or crisp. there is a slight hiss of air then it kind of clunks both ways. Also when I shift the deep reduction selector when I put it in there is an audible air leak in the cab, I didn't find the exact location of it yet. I going to try and clean that air cylinder today.
Deciding when to change cogs depends on various factors, like engine size/HP/torque, load, gradient, type of engine, etc. Modern electrically controlled engine develop a huge amount of torque at 1200rpm, so you can get away with shifting at low revs, something which I have hard time adapting to, however old mechanical injection engines tend to drop off below 1500rpm. so the shift range is between 1500-2000rpm. The only time you really wanna go over 2000 is if you are pulling uphill and don't have a lot of gears to choose from, in other words you go to maximum revs but still want to get into the next gear at 1500 because of the forward momentum being washed off. However with splitters it makes life a lot easier.
Yeah but Eaton also tell you not to shift without using the clutch and never ever use the hidden gear. Seriously though, by the sounds of it you have a sticky/leaky piston somewhere, as the range shift should be almost instantaneous. It might also pay to change the gearbox oil and check if there are any nasties floating around in there. If you check the oil and it is all good then you can be just about guaranteed that the problem is with the range selector system and not a worn synchro.
Which oil do you use in yours Hendrik? I use mostly castrol oils and they recommend CASTROL TFC 450. Any thoughts?
It would appear that you can get oil designed for the box http://www.oilman.com.au/transmission-oils/road-ranger-50/ http://www.hi-tecoils.com.au/?p=1058 Eaton recommends synthetic http://www.roadranger.com/rr/ProductsServices/ProductsbyCategory/Lubricants/index.htm http://www.myshopping.com.au/ZM--12...LTR_FULL_SYNTHETIC_ROAD_RANGER_OIL_SAE50_GL_1 but the price is not worthwhile for an old dumpy Castrol TFC 450 appears to be for automatic transmissions?
It would appear that you can get oil designed for the box http://www.oilman.com.au/transmission-oils/road-ranger-50/ http://www.hi-tecoils.com.au/?p=1058 Eaton recommends synthetic http://www.roadranger.com/rr/ProductsServices/ProductsbyCategory/Lubricants/index.htm http://www.myshopping.com.au/ZM--12...LTR_FULL_SYNTHETIC_ROAD_RANGER_OIL_SAE50_GL_1 but the price is not worthwhile for an old dumpy Castrol TFC 450 appears to be for automatic transmissions? OOOps pressed the wrong button, someone delete this?
Thanks JDOFMEMI and Hendrik for the info. My LN8000 has a Spicer syncro box, and I had always wondered how well the Roadrangers went in these trucks. The high idle speed for a 3208 is 2900 rpm I believe. If fully loaded to GCM you really have to be above 2000 rpm to get any sense out of it without clouds of black smoke, but I never go above 2500 rpm.
SA is a big place as well, and doing 80km/hr does suck. I suppose 30 years ago the Louisville 9000's were lined up against the Kenworths and Macks for the long haul work, wheras the 8000's probably looked pretty good against the Leylands, Dodges, Inters, Commers, Bedfords, etc for local work.
Any mechanic that knows what they are talking about will tell you the same. So why would you want to shift without using the clutch?
Well I got under there today and I still can't figure out what the model number is... can you guys make any sense of this photo? I followed the air lines from my stick today and unbolted what I thought was the cylinder as discussed above. In hindsight I'm not sure that it was. I reread mitch's post and went looking for the filter. couldn't undo that because I don't own a spanner large enough, went to buy one, couldn't find one in several shops but did get a jumbo spanner set ordered in. hopefully that will arrive tomorrow and I'll have another crack at it...
Its the bottom number, RT?613?????, Looks like it has had a couple of different coats of paint, you will have to get that off. If you can't read it try wiping some black grease over it, the grease might stay in the indented numbers and show them up better. Take a photo showing the back of the gearbox, one of us will be able to point out the air cylinders. Any time you need a spanner in a size you don't have, you can make a very effective one by cutting it out of some steel plate. Same goes for sockets too.
ok cheers, i'll get another pic tomorrow. what do you cut the steel plate with?
Ahh, a 13-speed, not a 15-speed. RT X613 A much more common setup, used w/ low hp engines to help out at high speed. (Before anybody jumps me for saying low hp, there is only room between the RT and the 6 for one digit. Thus, it has to be an 8 or a 9.) A 13 has no deep reduction, it has a splitter that gives you the equivalent of half gears between each gear in high range. Of course the driving instructions for a 13 are very different from a 15 speed. If you found the filter, it should be mounted on the back of the range shift cylinder. Seeing that model number puts us back a couple of steps. (Still clean the filter as it is an often neglected maintenance item.) Please get a picture of your shift knob, and we will discuss things some more. Good Luck, Mitch
Oxy-Acetylene
Because I am soft and my leg gets sore. Far as I know, no synchros involved in a full shift, the RR don't seem to mind and plenty of drivers have got a million k's out of them without using the clutch. However I am always willing to learn and if you have got good reasons as to why the clutch should be used, I am all ears, the downside of using the clutch is that you wear the clutch out quicker.
I do know that if you try to force the shift without the clutch, you will wear out the synchros, and cause hard shifting. I had a hired driver that by the time he learned to do it right, he had the trans, and especially 3rd gear, which was the common one to start off in, to a point it was hard to get into gear with or without the clutch. I also know that when done properly, with the engine speed matched BEFORE trying to stab the gearshift, you can do it for many years without using the clutch. I believe all the manufacturers recommend using the clutch in order to keep the idiots from damaging them during the warranty period. It gives them a basis to deny the claims. For me, as long as I can climb behind the wheel, the clutch is what you use to get rolling, then leave it alone.
You did read through the roadranger publications? http://www.roadranger.com/ecm/group...roadranger/documents/content/rr_trsm-0515.pdf The system works on a relay principle, rather than having big airlines and a huge range shifter in the cab, they run small air lines into the cab, these air lines go to a slave valve (which is like a relay) on the side of the box, from this slave valve big air lines go to the range cylinder on the back of the box, page 4 has a nice picture. Note there is an air filter which could be partially blocked. For the 13 speed this is the manual http://www.roadranger.com/ecm/group...roadranger/documents/content/rr_trsm-0430.pdf
Of course the makers will not condone non clutch use shifting but most drivers do it and I don't see a huge pile of blown RR boxes sitting next to the average truck repair place. Sure if you don't know what you are doing use the clutch but with experience comes the ability to shift smoothly without clutch. Also you can shift quicker without clutch. That's the problem I am having, trying to shift too quick with using a clutch, doesn't help either having driven a small Japanese type synchro box for the last three years.
Just a small point, there are no synchronizers any where except in the range shift and splitter. When you are moving the shifter in either of these trannys, it is totally unsynchronized.
I was taught you only use the the clutch to stop and start. Once you learn to drive this way using the clutch makes you look like a amature.
My experiance with a 613 is in a IH 1900 with a DT466 you have 3 deep reduction gears then 5 in each low and high range. Not your typical 13 spd with a spliter in high range. They are great trans as you have the road gears of a 10 spd and deep reduction like a 8LL. I have had problems with the shift knob mine is the old style round metal knob about 3 inches round with the air shifter inside the knob. I have had O-rings blow and also dirt and oil builds up in the knob and makes it not work right. If you unscrew the three screws on the bottom of the knob you can take it apart and clean and instal a new O-ring and that normaly fixes it just be carefule as there is a spring and a few parts in there you need to be ready to catch as the last screw comes out. Good luck!
No you use the brakes to stop
There are no syncros on a roadranger gearshift, just a sliding dog clutch to engage the gear with the shaft, the only way to get it to engage is to have the transmission input shaft and output shaft turning at the correct speeds. When you are moving the output shaft is turning, with no gear engaged it is being turned by the vehicles driveline. The engine is also turning, at whatever speed you decide it should be. If the two are turning at the exact correct speeds, you can slide it into gear. If you get it wrong, the momentum of the vehicle has to try to alter the speed of the engine, with the sliding dog clutch being caught grinding in the middle. If however, you have the clutch disengaged, the momentum of the vehicle only has to alter the speed of the input shaft and clutch plates, which is a lot easier on the sliding dog clutch. I have heard of a warranty claim across a fleet of trucks that got rejected, Eaton told the company tell your drivers to use the clutch. The auto shift manual transmissions were developed to overcome drivers who can't get it right. As for increased clutch wear, I doubt that it would be all that excessive. Even if they wear out faster they are cheaper and easier to replace than the dog clutches in the transmission. If you can get it exactly perfect 100% of the time, go for it. I have been exposed to a lot of drivers who can't. Some of them shouldn't even be allowed to drive a truck actually.
Well I've attached photos of the knob, and two views of the back of the box. I put it into what I think is deep reduction today and there appears to be 5 forward gears there and one reverse. The only time i've really used it is backing into narrow driveways to reduced the vehicle speed. The ugly bastardised bit is the clutch brake, its held on with a hose clamp This is the left side if the tranny looking from the back, I think thats the filter up top there... the right side, that top bit is the bit I mistakenly took the bolts out of...
These are your air cylinders.
I would have thought that if it is a 13 speed, the larger black switch on the front is the range change, the smaller blue switch on the side is a splitter. Go through the 5 gears in low range, then into the 4 gears of high range. Each gear in high range can be split with the splitter, giving each a half gear, making 8 gears in high range. So 5 gears in low, 8 gears in high equalls 13 gears. When lightly loaded you won't have to bother using the splitter. This is my understanding, but anyone who is more familiar can feel free to correct me on this. I am not a full time driver.
the blue knob on the side won't go forward when the black knob is up. ie when its in high range the blue know won't budge. This is just sitting with the engine off, stick in neutral. could it be different when in motion?
Well maybe I have it wrong. Sorry if I do. Thats how a 13 speed works that I drive sometimes. Someone else will have more idea. Anyone feel free to correct me. There is also the possibility that you have the wrong gear knob for the transmission if it has been replaced at some stage.
I think it is not the original transmission. The guy I bought it from said he got a s/h box at some stage in the last 3 years.... also it looks like it has had a few coats of paint which I imagine would only be done when its out of the truck. also I'm still thinking maybe its a 15spd I'm fairly certain there are 5 gears in the deep reduction, 5 in low and 5 in high... actually I have only used 4 of them in high...
The numbers on the model plate made me think that it was a 13 speed.
if there were only 3 deep reduction gears, what would happen when you put the stick into the two slots that don't have gears? I had drive in all 5 slots...
A 13 speed has a red splitter button. Blue button indicates deep reduction, as they are only on an 8LL and a 15 speed.If the splitter is grey and there is a high/low range selector it is an 18 speed. Grey splitter w/o high/low selector is a super 10. It baffles me how folks get these confused. I will have to say, however, that is the first finger operated clutch brake I've ever seen and I've been in and around trucks my entire life(I'm 42).
There would still be gears in all 5 slots, however you just don't use them all, as the ratios are not spaced in order, meaning that if you did use them all by the time you go to change up into the next range you would be going too fast to use the first gear in the next range.
I got it confused because of the 13 on the model plate. Is it possible that the gear knob is the wrong one for the transmission?
Tireman, what you are saying is true for modern trucks, if they are still set up like they left the factory. This is an old time 13-speed, not shifted at all like a modern 13. We know this is not the original transmission for this truck, but it may well be the original shifter. Most of these transmissions had a round, chrome, shift knob w/ a 3 position knob on the side. It was labeled low, dir, high. I didn't know until I researched this that some of the last of these were shipped w/ this type of knob. The correct shift pattern is 1,2,3 in low (deep reduction), then shift like a 10 speed. The reason that 4 and 5 in low are not used is because they overlap gears in direct, as Plant Fitter said. Just out of curiosity, what year is this truck? These transmissions were popular in the '60s and early '70s. This is definitely an early one due to the type of filter/regulator used. on edit: BTW, that kind of clutch brake isn't on the input shaft like most. It is mounted to the unused PTO port, and when you mash the button, it presses a soft piston against the PTO gear to slow the front section of the trans.
its a 1980 Mitch...thanks for all the info. So now we know what we have here, is cleaning that filter/cylinder still my best for getting it to shift from high to low range?
OK so we have established that this is an old 13 speed? I am pretty certain that this is not the original gear shifter, back in the early eighties the range shifter was the old style, attached to the stick and not incorporated into the gear knob. Some of the deep reduction trucks even had the deep shifter on the dash and only the low to high shifter on the gear stick. So we can assume that this gear shifter was taken off a current 15 speed (with splits on the low range)? That is where the confusion started, the number on the side of the box indicated that it is a 13 speed but the colour of the splitter button would make you think it is a 15 speed. So I dare say if you jumped in this truck and tried to drive it like a 15 speed you would be confused. I am somewhat confuse why the made the RT613, however the assumption here is that it is designed for medium duty local work, basically a cheaper version of the 15 with deep. Anyway back to the original problem, I take it the low high range air cylinder is the top one in the picture and the lower air cylinder is the deep reduction one? Also is that thing with the red air line going into it the air filter? An example of the older shift set up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PATXBUbOUBo&list=UU2DudN5RnPRs-bx1pDQ713w&index=2&feature=plcp very similar to ACCO trucks Another thought, does this old girl have a shift pattern somewhere in the truck, like you can see above the drivers door in the road commander, more than likely it was on the old gear shifter.
So that would make it a "working 13". I'm familiar with them, even drove a couple. This tranny was just discussed in another thread only a couple of weeks ago or so. I should have put in the disclaimer about referring to factory set-ups. Thanks, Mitch. That does look like an old range selector with the handle gone, doesn't it?
That seems to be consensus, unless there is a an expensive problem in the box, the RT613 is a 600 foot pound rated box, which is not a lot but if the 3208 is the low power version it should be alright. However I would not be too keen to put a trailer behind the truck. In those pdf's there is information how to service these boxes. Thinking aloud here, would it be possible to swap hoses from the two air cylinders, to try and eliminate the problem being in the slave relay? Probably not as the hoses are too short, however it should not be too much trouble to pull the range shift cylinder and overhaul it. I would also like to say that sometimes you are better off to use a big shifter to undo air hoses than a cheap open end spanner or crows foot socket. Worst comes to worst a Stilsen has been know to be used way out past the black stump. I say Stilsen because our friends on the other side of the pond won't know what that is, don't tell them or they will think we are a bunch of knuckle dragging cavemen, whose toolbox consists of two shifters (big and bigger), a couple of screwdrivers (which double up as pry bars), three hammers (standard, big and sledge) and some rusty fencing wire.
Yep, it's definitely an old school 13 speed (shifts like a 15) with a newer style knob on it. But the correct knob for the application. RT613 or RT6613, shifts the same. But the original answer is still the same, just don't move from high to low unless moving very slowly, unless you can fix the problem that causes the grinding. If you could get an 18 speed knob you could use deep reduction in high range, but someone with more specific knowledge will have to say whether or not that is a good idea. I can't see what it would hurt being that high range has much less torque, but maybe the gear rotational speeds would be too high if you used the higher gears in high range, who knows.
ok thanks Hendrik, so the top right cylinder is the high/low range right? when I pull the cap off the is a largeish nut right in the centre with an air hole in the middle. do I undo that? how tight to I do it when I put it back on? could you point me to the link with the right manual Hendrik? I find it pretty confusing with so many different models. I think the last 13spd link you gave me was the on without deep reduction. Cheers, Nick
Seeing that the RT613 is outdated, getting the proper manual for it may be difficult My guess is that the 15 speed manual is very close http://www.roadranger.com/ecm/group...roadranger/documents/content/rr_trsm-0525.pdf page 13 gives the torque of the range cylinder shift bar nut at 70-85ft/lbs Air system starts on page 22, page 74 shows the removal of the shaft, however it would appear that the back of the box has to come off to remove the yoke from the shaft. However I have never pulled a box apart to that extend, the only time I had to pull the lid of a RR was when 1st/reverse yoke broke a finger, due to large hairy beasts jumping or yanking on the gear stick. Job would have been done sooner except it was the middle of the night and we forgot to push the neutral pin for the slave back in before tightening the lid, crack, "ohh poo that's not good". So I would advise that you service the air filter and check the slave before looking at the range cylinder. Hang on, think I found it http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...PL6t90Y6Q&sig2=ysns9A03-YliuWY4YUOAtA&cad=rja not sure if that will work,damn google Seems to work, parts numbers http://stemontreal.com/LCD/Eaton-Fuller-Tr/Eaton-Fuller-Tr-HD-PL/RT-613.pdf
http://www.roadranger.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@roadranger/documents/content/rr_trsm-0600.pdf
That's the link to the rt613 manual Now, Hendrik, it's not just you knuckle dragging aussies that know what a stilson wrench is. You might be shocked at what I've fixed delicate mechanisms w/, 10 miles in the swamp, when I didn't fancy the walk. Ok, this is what's confusing me: What the heck is a "shifter" that you carry in your toolbox? Nick, I've said before that I give you a less than 1% chance that your problem is in the air system. The air system will make it not shift, but I don't see it making it grind. That said, if you take the cap off of your range cylinder, you should be able to look at the cylinder walls and get a sense whether it is dirty or not. If I didn't see a lot of crud or rust, I'd put it back together and be confident the problem isn't in the cylinder. It is probably possible to remove the piston off the shaft and out of the cylinder, through the back, but I've never tried it without getting deep enough in to get the fork loose and push it out from inside. If there's not threaded holes in the piston to pull it out, be very careful prying it out, because if you scratch the cylinder or piston, you will cause more problems than you solve. Good Luck, Mitch
thanks for the links. I opened up the filter and this is what I found. Can I turn the truck on with this filter cap off? would this blow all that crap out of the filter housing? the filter element appears to be made from an old porous hose or some such thing. should this be the brass filter element like it says in the manual. There is also a large spring which I can't see in the manual. It looks like the filter assembly is a different model to the pictures in the manuals... Either way it all looks really clogged up and I'm hopeful that cleaning it all out will fix my range change problem.
This thread is getting very shifty A shifter is what we call a crescent wench, or adjustable spanner. Far as Mr Nick's shifty issues goes, I don't see a problem with activating the shift system with the air filter out, as it is a one way blow off valve type of thing, I think and does not suck air into the system. There is also a 1% chance that you have been shifting the box the wrong way, easy to do without a shift diagram. However I would expect with the truck in neutral that you hear that definite clack clack sound as you flick between low and high range with little delay and a slight hiss of air escaping from the air filter. You said it was mushy and kinda slow, which would indicate an air issue, be it in the filter, slave or cylinder. Perhaps pull the slave valve off and check it next?
Yeah, you can build air w/ the cap off. It will blow out any crud in the lines from the tank. Just a guess here, but, I think somebody has replaced the filter w/ a piece of something, that could be an old style filter, but I have worked on stuff from the '60s w/ the hard brass filter. The air comes from the tanks, through the filter, to the regulator, and is then used to work the shift system. If the air system is slow shifting, you may also want to check the regulator and make sure you have the proper pressure going to the tranny. On edit: I bet that spring is part of the regulator, I'll have to look and think about this.
So I should be replacing that filter with a brass one right? What about the spring? it doesn't show up in the diagrams. and the four pointed star thing? looks pretty rusty. Hendrik, would truckline have all these bits?
I was thinking that 4 pointed star thing might be part of the regulator too. :beatsme I will look in some old parts books I have in my office tomorrow.
Thanks Mitch I look forward to hearing what you find out. I've been googling and I can't find any RR air filter that looks like the one I've got. Or one with a big spring in it.
Here is a photo of the filter housing, it doesn't look to me like the one in the manual, but please correct me if I'm wrong. here's another angle...
Hey Nick, that is an old style filter housing, I've seen them before. That manual is the 1986 update. That's one reason I think your transmission came out of an older truck. I didn't get the chance to get into my 40 yr old parts books today, I spent most of the day on a jobsite and was soaking wet and tired, I didn't even go by the shop, I just went straight home. I'll try again tomorrow, Mitch
BTW, what's the round thing in the center of the last pic? is it the pressure regulator, or maybe another filter? The modern filter housing that mounts on the cylinder cap has the regulator built into it. those cylinder caps are another reason I see this as an old transmission.
i have no idea! i'm pretty confused at this point. I'm not sure wether to put the old filter back in, i soaked it in methylated spirits but it still looks really dirty. driving it without the filter would be bad huh?
As long as it isn't disintegrating you can put it back in. If it works better you have your answer (still need to find a new one) if it doesn't get better then you have not proven anything. But that is the way we have to troubleshoot sometimes.
I put it back in but there is no improvement. if anything it sound more mushy and sloppy whilst in neutral with the motor off Do you guys know what a flam is? any drummers out there? basically it sounds like two clunks close together. whereas the change from deep to low range is quite clean and crisp.
OK we are going to go over this again, when trying to repair old stuff, sometimes you have to make do with info that may not be a 100% applicable to your equipment. Often there are production changes which are not in the manual, that is why you often have to use other information or a bit of guesswork to be able to fix stuff. I am somewhat annoyed as it would appear you have not bothered to look at the parts pdf I posted, http://stemontreal.com/LCD/Eaton-Fuller-Tr/Eaton-Fuller-Tr-HD-PL/RT-613.pdf if you had you would see a big spring on page 14. Funnily enough the air filter in that pdf looks a lot like the one you have. For your and others information I will say that parts books are a valuable source of information, as often they will have references to superseded and upgraded parts, which is not in the R&R book. Also often they will have diagrams of the parts and how they connect together, which is handy if you don't have a manual. Any pro mechanic on this forum will tell you that you have to use the repair manual and parts book together to do a successful repair.
Pages 32-34 show the air flow for the three ranges, do you understand them? Notice that the intermediate cylinder works different to the range cylinder, however they both need a certain air pressure to work and they both get their air from the regulator, thus if the intermediate is working well but the range is not, we can deduce that the regulator is working, dirty filter or not. So we may focus on the range cylinder or slave valve as being the problem, as I don't think the synchro comes into play when the truck is parked. Perhaps another simple test is to pull the air line off the range cylinder, as you may see only in high range is the back line charged and in deep and low there should be no air coming out of the back of the range cylinder unless the big O ring is leaking. if the small O ring on the inside of the range shaft where to be the problem you would have good range shift from low to high but poor shift from high to low.
Boy Hendrik, I surely agree about the parts books, they usually have much better diagrams than the service manuals. I looked through my big stack of Eaton stuff and couldn't find a parts book for a 613. I missed your parts book link the first time around too. I actually found a part number I needed for a 1970 RT9513 in that book. My only complaint was that it is sideways, but I guess it is right side up for you guys down under. Seriously, I'm going to save that site. If the o-ring on the cylinder shaft is leaking, you should be able to hear the air leaking out of the breather on top of the tranny. If you go chasing air leaks, be careful. My brother took the top cover off and was feeling for a leak when the button got hit, he lost 2 fingers cleanly, but not painlessly. I still don't think the problem is going to be in the air system. I have run down many, many, air problems; and I have never seen anything but an internal mechanical problem cause a grinding sound on range shift. An air problem usually causes slow shifts, or no shift.
Gee that makes me feel special, nobody reads my posts, why do I bother, ahh well it's typing practise. Might as well just type any old rubbish about eliminating the simple things before pulling gearboxes apart or some such thing but why should I, no one will read it, perhaps once again suggest draining the oil and checking for metal, lots of metal = problems, expensive problems. Especially as the gearbox is under the cab, which makes it a pain to get at, one of the advantages of a cab over I suppose? I know, perhaps I'll start my posts with FREE BEER that should get peoples attention until they figure out there is no free beer and switch back into zombie mode and spend hours looking for information that has been posted before. Speaking of beer I might have one or two and contemplate why no one reads my posts :crying even the smiley list hates me know and won't automatically put in a emoticon :crying Ohh yeah the reason the pdf is sideways is because mechanics lie on their backs under trucks. Maybe I'll write my posts sideways?
Hendrik, I am sorry, I too missed that link in that post. I promise I have looked through all the other links. that parts book is fantastic! And thank you, I really do appreciate your help. I kind of understand the air flow, but it is all very new to me so I'm not really 100% confident in my understanding. I have read though it several times and each time it seems to make more sense. It makes sense that the filter and regulator are working ok. Mitch's story about his brothers fingers has me a bit worried. I don't think I'll do anything with the air lines or range cylinder unless the tanks are drained. Hendrik, do you know where I could find parts like the filter element in Perth? or Australia in general? Mitch with Hendriks book I can safely say you ID'd the regulator in that photo further up. I have noticed air leaking out of the selector switch when I shift deep reduction in and out. Sometimes in leaks when its in and sometimes it leaks when its out. I've only noticed it with the engine off when I been listening for the click clack sounds. I can hear a fairly quiet air leak somewhere near the top of the tranny but I haven't really figured out exactly where it is coming from. After a few hours the primary air gauge goes down to 50 PSI or less, I need to build air again before I can take the brakes off. Is that considered a significant air leak? I found a valve like this on the other two tanks, how does it work? is it a drain valve?
Drain the water and oily muck out of the air tanks at least once a day.
One of my tanks has a cord that you pull and I do drain that one every day. I'm not sure how to operate the valve pictured above. Do you just unscrew it? do I need to drain each tank separately?
That's OK it was a tongue in cheek comment, your on a bit of a learning curve, which we have all been on and are still on. I actually know a lot more about RR boxes know than I did before this, so that's good. The air flow diagram is straightforward, you just have to understand which line is active and which is not, now you'll notice that the older style shifter has three air lines, whilst the newer style (like in your truck) has four. Those air lines are named H/S P S and SP on the four line shifter, the three line does not have the H/S line. The SP line goes straight to the intermediate cylinder, whereas the others go to the slave cylinder. That's because the intermediate cylinder has it's own slave valve built into it. So you really should be looking at pages 35-37 for your truck. Yes putting your hand into a road ranger box is not the best idea. You can try truckline or another truck parts place, if they give you joy you can go to Eaton direct for parts http://www.roadranger.com/rr/Custom...rRepresentative/AustraliaNewZealand/index.htm Part number Description / Replacement Part Notes List Price # of Units Core Value 16920 ORDER K-1486 K-1486 REPAIR KIT-AIR FLT 27.88 http://www.roadranger.com/rr/Aftermarket/PriceLists/index.htm Air leaks, try leaving the truck in different ranges to see if it leaks more or less. Once you understand the air flow you can figure out which O ring is sealing in a particular range. Generally leaks are found by a process of elimination if they can't be located by sight, sound or feel. WARNING AT THIS STAGE I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT WORKING WITH HIGH PRESSURE AIR IS A POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS THING MAKE SURE YOU WEAR SAFETY GLASSES That valve is a basic screw type, undo the butterfly and it should open unless it is blocked up with gunk, then you gotta take it out and clean it or replace it. Yes each tank should be drained but generally one does more work and will have more water than the other, which is normal.
The first tank after the compressor will collect most of the water and oily muck, but it is still a good idea to drain the others as well. When you work out which one collects most of the muck, you can drain the others a bit less often.
The butterfly doesn't seem to undo when I turn it, I've ordered 2 more pull on the cord type drain valves and will replace the butterfly's when they arrive. I ordered them on ebay because I have no idea where to buy that sort of thing.
You might want to think about putting an air hose fitting in the truck, if it don't have one, comes in handy for inflating tires and such.
Any truck parts shop should be able to sell you something like that, Truckline or the like.
Good idea. Just don't put it where the drain valve was. Find another port.
I found one after that suggestion. its just a bit rusted up so I'll replace that one shortly too. I didn't explain very clearly about the butterfly, it just spins on the thread but doesn't actually undo anything.
yep, that's how those valves die
The other day I was talking to a bloke about a part time job doing demo work. They've got a couple of CH Macks with 13 speeds and he said that on one of them you have to change the range with the box in neutral, otherwise there will be grinding. Perhaps try that and see what happens?
Hi Hendrik, Thanks for the info but I've already tried it. Even at 5km/h in neutral it still makes a nasty noise. I have to be not moving at all and even then its still a big clunk. I'm just kinda putting up with it for now.
It's most likely a synchronizer inside the transmission has gone bad. At Least it was was with our Mack when it started doing that.
Yes someone suggested that earlier. Have you had that problem recently GPC? The last suggestion was around $1000 to get it fixed but it was quite a few years ago. If your's was more recent perhaps you could let me know how many hours it took to replace it then I can do the maths!
I came in here late (I apologise if the question has been already answered) but why skip 6th gear, when changing up or down with the range selector? 6th gear is a progressive jump between 5th and 7th on both the RT(direct in high gear) and RTO(overdrive in high gear) ten and fifteen speed transmissions. We have one fifteen speed and three ten speed/four speed setups at the place where I work, that's how we shift them, 5th- 6th- 7th going up and 7th- 6th- 5th going down. BTW using the deep reduction go through first second and third in the deep reduction then push in the clutch and flip the button, leaving the lever in 3rd, that is the next progressive step up. Alternatively, you can shift up 5th gear, then flip the button while shifting the trans into 4th gear position, that is also the next progressive step up. If you have to skip 6th gear to change between high and low range it sounds like your trans has a 13 speed gearset in the front half.
Mike, by time we got to the third page of this thing, we got a pic of the model number; turns out it is an old style 13-spd.
HeavyEquipmentForums This post shows the link to the service and operation manual which shows the 15-speed-like operating pattern.