I guess even big companies can try and rip you off. Furnace quit working so called the number on the sticker on it. They had replaced the ignitor in 2010. A guy came out to troubleshoot what was wrong and said it was the ignitor was again. Then he said the ignitor is no longer available so we need a new furnace. I asked if there were aftermarket and he said no. He arranged for a tech. to come out to give an estimate. The furnace is a 1998. Partner came home and said to call the place that came to look at a plumbing leak. I never realized they did heating too but she had their card. I gave them the model of the furnace and they would look into an ignitor first thing this morning. They said a lot of bigger outfits try to upsell you and the diagnostic techs. get commission. Got a call at 8:30 they found an ignitor. I called the other place to cancel the estimate. They said they'd inform the guy. Nope, guy shows up at 10 and says he never got a call. Shortly after the other guy shows up with an ignitor and 20 minutes later we have heat. He said his supplier had 14 ignitors in stock and it's a very common furnace. He also said in a pinch you could use a universal ignitor. We're putting in AC in the summer so they'll be getting the job. These large scam artists should be put out of business! We paid the 1st place the $100 diagnostic fee and the ignitor replacement with labour was around $250. They e-mail the bill later. A new furnace would probably be about 10 times the cost and had the 1st place just replaced the ignitor probably would have got the job to install AC in the summer. Really makes you wonder if these places have a conscience.
I don't know if it's a Canadian company but it sounds like, for this post to be effective, you need to call out their name! This kind of stuff sucks and it's a shame that big companies can apparently market their way out of being crappy businesses. Glad you were able to save some money when it was all said and done. I had the opposite experience with the plumbing company (Korrect, in Dayton, OH) when I had a water heater issue 2 weeks ago. It cost 280 bucks to fix but the repair tech was very friendly. He showed me how to replace the things he was replacing if it needed it again (for $35!), how to test it, and how to fix a clunking issue on a waste pump I have.
All dealers are about the same . Had a part for the shifter break on my explorer. Dealer said I had to buy a whole new steering column $1300 . Went to advanced auto bought the part for about 20-30 bucks.
By all means, name and shame. The only way they'll change their tactics is if they're caught enough times that they have to change, as long as they make more money being dishonest than honest, they'll continue. The internet is the only way for consumers to keep up with companies like this. It sounds like you were perfectly happy to pay $250 for changing a $20 igniter so it's not like you're asking for something for nothing, or playing one guy's bid off another. For future reference, most modern furnaces are actually fairly simple, they have diagnostic codes you read by counting the red LED flashes then look at the back of the cover to see what they mean, 90% of the faults will be the condensate drain backed up, dried out over summer, or bird nests etc. blocking the intake or exhaust pipe. Igniters that fail are easy to check with an ohmmeter if you don't see them glowing orange when they should.
Well, if you had a fuel pump die on your 20 year old excavator, would you trust (insert least favorite dealer here) if they told you they could not repair it but could sell you a new one for $200,000??? Even if it were obsolete, you would probably then look for a used/salavage or NOS pump before giving up on the machine. Contractors prey on naive homeowners. Never expect a vendor, contractor, dealer, retailer to be honest unless you have experience with them or they are a trusted referral. There may be more bad consumers than people ready to take advantage of them out there.
Ummm, On the newer high efficiency furnaces there are a couple other simple things that stop them dead. In zero weather frost forms around the exhaust pipe causing back pressure. There is a sail switch that trips when the air filter gets dirty and the air flow is reduced. After changing air filter the switch has to be reset on some brands of furnaces. There is always a schematic diagram inside one of the furnace access panels also.
Ignitor was $141.00 so about $100 to come out and change it. For comparison some equipment shops charge $160+/hr. Reliance was the company that are based in Ontario but across Canada as far as I can tell. Sticker was from The Furnace Company but Reliance had bought them out several years ago. The place that fixed it said they got into business because of places like Reliance ripping people off. They were recommended by a plumbing company we had used that couldn't come to look at a leak because the owner was dealing with stage 4 cancer. Just heard the cancer had returned and he had passed away. Very sad, he was a super nice guy. He chased off some other scam artists and fixed a frozen water line a few years ago because the heat tape failed. Saved us about $900. The place that fixed the furnace were surprised the guy from Reliance didn't even bother checking to see if there was a replacement. I asked him but he was pretty adamant there wasn't and said some places have put the wrong one in and had to replace it every 3 month's. What's even more disturbing is Reliance has good reviews overall. After looking did see some that were 1 star though.
HVAC is a scammer's business! Mostly because most don't know a thing about it and techs bank on that. I ripped a guy a new one last yr trying to charge people up for R22 telling people "you can't get it anymore".... Yeah, it is being phased out, but there are mountains of it left! They pay about $11/lb, and try to charge people BY THE LB! In some cases $100/lb!!!! That is nothing short of extortion! I am glad I trained up on the engineering side of HVAC and never had to call someone. My dad recently had a failure on his new furnace. Code was obviously that it was not detecting flame. Obvious it had flame. Any tech would have changed the sensor. I TEST before I replace. it was nothing more than a dirty contact. That was 2mo ago. 15min fix. Took longer to argue with my dad!
The pad mount AC for my house is a 1970 Seaburg Air Ease, which has been owned by Lennox for years. Only thing I've had replace is the densor cooling fan. I had a old HVAC guy tell me don't let anyone touch it leave it alone that ac could run 70 years no one builds a AC unit like Seaburg did. He was right the only thing I've changed is the cooling fan for the 25 years I've lived here.
The best thing to do is leave an honest review. No slander. Just be truthful to what they did. Post to google reviews.
A better analogy would be, to say you need a new excavator because your battery went bad. Lol. Ignitor is a basic part and is usually the first thing to check.
The guy that fixed said it's like buying a new car because you got a flat tire. I'll see if I can put a review up. It's funny that on the receipt for the diagnostic it has a check mark in the yes box for new product inquiry. I doubt we're the first ones they tried to scam.
I was at a friends house in the Chicagoland area. He had me deal with an AC man coming for a check-up on the AC, as he was on a conference call. Repair guy said the capacitor was going on the fan, new one was $215. I said leave it in until it fails, then we will call him back. After he left the new capacitor was $12 from Graingers.
The idea of replacing a whole unit because some ignitor was NLA just seems silly even if it really was NLA. Surely something could be "engineered" to work. I used to work for a gas company. 5pm we got a "no heat" call. Went out and found a bad ignitor. But the gas valve would open for several seconds before logging an error code so I just lit it with my 3 foot aim & flame and told them to set the thermostat high and let it run until they could not stand it to heat up the house before nightfall. Then call a furnace fixer in the morning. But my point is that is how easy it is to light a furnace. Just something to make the flame start is good enough.
You must be hooked up to get out of Graingers for 12 dollhairs
I agree, I could get one for $12 from the local HVAC supply house but Grainger would surely sell the same part for $25 to me.
Well drillers ain't any better. One local company, any problem they were called for required a new well. Another used plastic fittings instead of brass, they would always break over time requiring service. They would've got me, but I dug it up and fixed it myself. Ed
I don't know about this furnace (it's pretty sealed up) but years ago the pilot light for the furnace in our mobile home went out. The ignitor didn't work but there was a little door that could be rotated out of the way to get into the fire box. Hold the gas valve down for the pilot light and drop a piece of lit newspaper in the access hole to light it.
If you guys ever get in a bind on HVAC, feel free to shoot me a line. I don't mind helping where I can. I have realized that the idiot techs work in rezzy work, and the good ones move on to commercial and refrigeration, where the pay is better, but they are also held accountable. There is rarely any "gas and go" with those guys because many thousands of dollars of frozen goods could be on the line. One thing that pisses me off is single phase AC compressors rarely have current OL protection on the aux winding. If the cap fails shorted, that can take out the entire compressor. Also ALWAYS increase the voltage rating of the cap when you replace! Install 440s in the place of 370s! So many things....lol I will tell you this, I was in a hurry with an install and I called "a guy" just to vac and charge. Simple! We had a very minor issue but he said "your compressor is bad" and left. I fixed it and did the work myself and that compressor is still banging, 10yrs later. I also had him install a liquid filter. He cooked that filter to a crisp with his torch because he could not be bothered to use a wet rag on it. That cost me $400 in a new drum of R22 because that filter shot a pinhole later. So I brazed the new one up, swapped ALL the schrader valves, and dialed that charge in on a nats ass! Seriously guys, if there is even one shred of advice I could give, it would be CLEAN YOUR A/Z COIL!! Almost no techs want to do it, it is not difficult, but it takes time. That is the coil indoors that the refrigerate lines go to. If it is not accessible, make it that way! They should be cleaned. Also, clean your condenser coil (outdoor) and do not rely on appearance. Use a hose, but also use compressed air! Unless you have a spine fin coil. I documented about 20lb lower head pressures just cleaning a coil. Basically, your HVAC "tech" will say your system is getting weak, consider new, when what you need is clean coils, BOTH of them!
That's a nice offer @fastline ! Uh, A/Z coil? Though you kind of said what that is I have no idea what it is! Also, when you clean the outside coil with a hose do you mean just hose off the fins, or like take the fan cover off and spray it down?
I'm glad I was born mechanically inclined, otherwise I would have spent some unknown fortune on parts or a new unit. I have an Outdoor Wood Boiler (OWB) and got into a bind starting it up in October 2019. Mice got inside controller during summer and chewed every freaking wire inside. Stripped all insulation off every wire and pissed all over the temp controller box. I call the number for manufacturer to find out they went out of business, parts are NLA. All stickers/part numbers are gone from parts I need replaced. I walked into Grainger after being recommended there by mechanical company, and Grainger had everything I needed in stock for about $150. Headed home, rebuilt the controls and had a fire going before dark that night.
We've got a great well service company located 2 miles from my place, All J's Well Service. He doesn't drill, but he does everything else and is very solid. Only uses high quality parts and fittings because he doesn't want to come back.
Sorry, this coil is more correctly called the "evaporator coil" but Are referred to as an A or Z just based on the shape of the coil. Over time lint will sneak by the filter and build a mat on the inlet side of the A coil. This is usually easy to spot with pressures and temps but rookie techs may miss it or say "you need a new A coil". The only right way to clean an outdoor coil is to remove power and remove the fan assembly so you can work from the inside. Air is drawn in from the outside of the coil, and up through the fan. You would want to rinse from the inside out. Before that even starts, I recommend compressed air, but use with common sense! Also, if a bunch of fins are pushed over, get a fin comb and fix it! I do not recommend coil cleaner chemicals because most of them are Alkaline and will remove some material by chemical etching. Most coils are so thin today, you are asking for it! I cleaned my own coil once where I would have sworn it was clean!!! I would bet on it but my temps and pressures indicated it needed cleaned. Sure enough, not only did it work, but compressor sounded better and pulling less power. That equals higher EER....
Since I am bored, let me offer some TMI. The words to get to understand AC is "subcooling" and "superheat". Those can be pretty simple to grasp. Subcooling refers to reduced temperature beyond state change. I use water as an example. At std pressure, it boils at 212F. The pressure is VERY important to note here!!!! If i increase the pressure, the boiling point will go up. Inversely, if I take water up in an airplane, it will boil at less than 212F. But lets assume std pressure and boiling point of 212F. If I reduce the temp to 211F, it will be a liquid with 1 degree F of subcooling. If I get it down to 200F, it is liquid with 12* of subcooling. Superheat is just the opposite. Temp higher than state change. So assume std pressure (not practical but..), water will turn to steam at 212, but I measure at 220F, I have 8* of superheat. If I scrub that steam through a "condenser coil", I will be able to reduce the steam temp hopefully below the superheat range, and into subcooling. In short, a condenser's job is to crease state change. So when I throw a gauge on, I am looking at high side pressure and comparing the outlet temp of the condenser to ensure there is enough "subcooling" to ensure only liquid is going to the evaporator. If you do not achieve, good subcooling, some refrigerant can be sent to the Evap as a gas, in which it will not provide any cooling. This can cause thermal run away and failures. An ideal refrigerant is an inert gas with a low boiling point and a very high latent heat of vaporization. Refrigeration physics works that a liquid absorbs heat energy as it turns to a gas. Believe it or not, Propane is a great refrigerant! However, it is far from inert! But Propane is commonly added to refrigerants to improve performance and some are even slightly flammable! This state change is what we are after in the Evap coil. The suction side works to "lower the pressure", which forces the liquid to boil or gas off. When it changes state, it absorbs heat! But we have to be careful to balance airflow across the Evap with the rate we are boiling off refrigerant because a coil can be driven below the freeze point of water! This is what can cause an Evap to "freeze up". The refrigerant itself does not freeze, but the moisture in the air condenses on the coil and then freezes. So we look at the suction side temp to ensure we keep that in the "happy range". A low temp can indicate a plugged Evap coil.
Hence when cooling fan quits it gets colder in the house real quick.
Two months ago my daughters heating boiler quit. It cycled on and off for a week or two rapidly and she never thought anything of it until the weather got to cold. Then it quit completely. It is a early 2000s boiler and the tech told her the company is out of business (true), that the igniter was burned out and the part numbers were not available. My handy neighbor and I checked it out, took the igniter out and went to Day's in Duluth, MN. In two minutes he told us it was common, they were temporary out in Duluth but had 140 of them in the Minneapolis store. We drove the hundred miles to get one the same day. While there, the parts guy had it on the counter and told us that the exhaust pressure switch was probably bad also. He said a bad exhaust switch will keep shutting it off, cycling the igniter until it burns out. He sent one with us, along with written instructions specific to that furnace on what color wires to jump to test it. He told us if we didn't need it, we could drop it off at the Duluth store and get our money back. It turned out the exhaust pressure switch was bad. The two new parts saved her over $5,000 for a new boiler that they could not even get to for at least two weeks. Total cost, $138.00 and a three hour drive. My boiler friend whom we want to buy from is booked until spring and not even doing service calls. So far the old one is working good, but it is is very rusty on the boiler. I told her to start saving her money. Hopefully she gets a year or two out of it yet. The folks at Day's are real pro's and helpful as all get out.
That sounds pretty similar to what I was initially told. Places that lie no parts are available should charged with fraud when the parts are actually readily available sitting on shelves.
Welder Dave could you shoot me the contact info for that company, i'm assuming they are in Edmonton? One of my renters texted me furnace went out and atco came and said it was the motherboard as it keeps clicking and clicking, I know nothing about these things so just want someone who is honest and knows what they are doing to fix it.
Told they want $700 for motherboard and install, and $100 to verify it's the problem.
$100 diagnostic fee sounds normal but should be refunded if they do the repairs. I sent you a PM.
Fixed several MBs and igniter modules. Most of them are broken solder joints somewhere due to all the thermal cycles they go through.
Thanks for the info, just went ahead with Legacy heating they took over company who originally installed furnace and renters had already confirmed they had part and their google and facebook reviews were good. Didn't leave me a lot of time as the furnace went out last night and they didn't let me know until noon. I will definitely ask about the solder joints when he calls after checking it out. I did think the $100 would come off from the repair but no it's $100 diagnostic plus the repair. First issue i've had in all my places with furnace, but it's only 10 years old seems so early to be needing work. Then again I did a water heater last winter at another rental, and it was only 5.5 years old. Frigging blower was within $100 of a whole new one so just replaced the whole thing.
The scam artists I had also had a lot of good reviews. Oddly the Yelp reviews were mostly bad. The $100 is usually deducted only if the same company does the repair.
I do understand the matter of speed and sometimes you just have to replace components. Don't count on any tech going any deeper after condemning a board. The whole world has gone to "parts changers" rather than repair techs. However, I advocate to everyone to please ask for and collect the old parts. This is where many scams happen, saying they replace parts that they didn't. Not saying every company would do this but..... I could write a novel of how many board level repairs I have done, and probably saved myself close to 6 figures my now due the business I am in. I would nearly guarantee that $700 board needs a 25cent part, if even that. That is what drove me to dig deeper into stuff like this. We are now into variable speed blowers and compressors, and multi stage gas burners, sometimes modulated. It can pay both in time and $ to learn more.... Good luck in your repair though! Hope you get some heat soon! I can understand if you have renters and it's cold, you have to move quick.
Yea I did notice reliance had a few bad one's though. This company the only bad reviews I found anywhere was 1 about driving, and two for getting charged directly instead of their builder for warranty, so hopefully they are honest the reviews would say they should be. I've got to assume some companies offer some kind of discount for a good review to have so many but really be awful.
Well at least it's good news, board is fine. He said all it was is thermostat battery was low enough it didn't have enough power to power motherboard and when he jumped it it's fine. For some reason one wire on thermostat was never hooked up to keep it charged so the non replaceable battery died. I'm guessing a previous tenant must have pulled it off and did something, place is 10 years old and never had it happen before. Charging $100 diagnostic and $100 to hook the wire up and test everything to confirm it's good. It's steep for how quick of job it is, but in reality $200 to come out on a holiday and fix it, i'm not going to complain.
Ha, went from a new MB to a battery issue.... Someone looked at the board, noticed the power status LED was not lit, and just said "MB time".... Glad you got someone competent on the job! What people fail to realize is you will likely call that company again! That is repeat business, which builds good companies, and the scammers eventually flop.
Yep exactly, because now I know they know what they are doing and are honest. It's still good money for them, drive there do the repair and drive back maybe 2 hours for $200, that's pretty good. I can't really fault the gas company, i'm actually surprised they would even come out and check it unless you smelled gas and it was an emergency.
What's sad is Atco said it needed a new MB. Atco is the gas company and I think they used to, maybe still do, furnace inspections. How could they miss the wire? Maybe the wire was never hooked up, I don't know but good thing you found someone competent and honest.
I am sure up North, things can get down right important to get some heat! Enough so, I would have a plan B-F but I digress. I am sure help are just trying to help but that is like your brother in-law "helping" by telling you to get a new engine because it will not start. Sometimes well intentioned help is only that. My best friend worked so hard to help another friend get his truck going. Random "fail to crank" issues with a duramax pickup. He read and read, and had bought and replaced the steering column, key switch, trans switch, and even the dealer was saying "it's the ECM".....I love those dudes to death, but they missed it. Neutral start wire from trans to ECM somehow was nicked by a rock inside the harness! RARE! 5min of soldering and that truck ran another 200K before he finally traded it. Not tooting my horn here, just saying, sometimes things can go in the wrong direction towards a repair! I have been bit many times. Nothing like ordering a new ignition coil because that plug couldn't possibly be bad....lol Gawd.....
He said the wire was not hooked up on the thermostat, so I guess if you just looked at the wiring at the furnace it would all look good. Yea I know they do furnace inspections, but not sure how much they actually know.
Luckily right now it's not bad out at all, be a lot different story if it was -40. I have 2 220v heaters at my yard in the event a furnace goes down and no one can get there to fix right away and it's really cold, 2 of them will heat a 1400 sq/ft two story in the middle of winter to comfortable temp. When renters moved out 2 years ago and I took possession back on dec 1 gas had been turned off since the spring, they were keeping it warm somehow it was around 50, it is only a 1200 sq/ft duplex though and being 10 years old it's insulated quite well so it doesn't take much to heat the place. I turned on the stove and stayed there for like an hour and that alone did a fair bit. That was another gripe with atco, frigging charged me $280 for emergency turning the gas back on within 24 hours, if you do 72 hours it was like $50. They weren't happy when I told them I could go outside and turn it back on myself in 30 seconds. I was pissed because they never contacted me before disconnecting, and the call out fee is insane. It takes them longer to walk to the meter then it does it turn gas back on. Funny you mention that, my dads 04 Ram has been sitting in his driveway for 2 years now with similar issue, key just went dead one day. He replaced the ignition and immobilizer and then gave up. Went over and spent a bit of time looking at it and tried to explain the parts he replaced where useless and cannot be the issue. Told him to pull the fuse box and look underneath for corrosion or other issues because the ignition isn't getting any power.
Well i'm not getting out that cheap, has to replace condensate pan, sent me pictures showing the cracks and said it's causing furnace to turn off, and it even had the part number in it, google it and sure enough exactly what he said and that the clear one's were problems.
I don't know *** but since that first furnace crapped out, since then both of my other rentals have crapped out too. One was the blower motor, not overly surprised as the previous tenants didn't change the filter and called me once furnace was out, and fine again once filter changed, so I anticipated some repairs down the line and was generous holding back damage deposit to cover some of it. Then other one today, motor crapped out. Sure hope this is it, well the only furnace that hasn't bit the dust is at my own place. But sucks in 6 weeks to spend $2300 fixing furnaces.