For example........Should we get paid the same to gorilla undercarriage components versus technical troubleshooting? One is brawn, the other is brain power with tech tools. Should those be charged differently now days?
I would take more money for having to work harder.
Physically or mentally?
Both I would be the one who determines the degree of difficulty.
Some days just getting out of bed and showing up would be the most difficult thing I did that day. That alone should be worth a grand right?
You have to meet the competition. If someone else does it you can to. I just take the good with the bad. In this case I don’t do grunt work anymore.
I am getting older and my tolerance for gorillaing anything has gone close to zero. Therefore it will need a crane or fork lift. Customer must pay. If it requires technical t/s, it needs a laptop and cables and software that cost thousands of dollars. Plus untold time, training and experience. The hourly rate had better reflect that.
I get paid the same either way. I just adjust my pace to not kill myself. With troubleshooting, you can always drag out another meter or scope or something. Put on a good show and then, change the sensor or fix whatever. Just don't tip your hand. For bull work, i just plug away slow n steady. I'm not getting my feelings hurt if they give undercarriage work away. That's why they keep making young men, to do the work old farts don't want.
Sometimes my brain hurts so an undercarriage is good, then other times my back is killing me so an intermittent electrical problem is good. I wouldn't like to do either every day so like mixing it up. I guess it would be safe to say I would never make it on the assembly line. My rate only goes up when I realize I agreed to do work for a A HOLE (sometimes they slip through my screening prosses).
Amen brother! I would double "like" this one but I can't do that .
Do you charge for the time you spend on watching U-tube to see how to fix something? Bob
Of course I do. Ide be dumber than a box of rocks without it
I guess if the shoe fits? Bob
You got it!
Depends on what it is and who owns it. But I have a strict policy-No Volvos and no Thermo King.
How about charging more when they are clearly the cause of the problem? But insist that the machine is junk.
I have had potential customers look it up on u-tube and say "it should not take long or be hard". I tell them to call U-tube.
That is a personal pet peeve of mind when someone tells me how long it should take and how easy it should be. I always ask them. Then why am I here? With the most condescending tone I can muster up.
They just want you to know that they know how long it takes so you don’t try and rip them off.
I used to just laugh at them a tell them that of course I'm going to rip them off. It's called business.
Ya'll need to find better customers. Now I know construction and wrenching is not the same but the philosophy does apply. The best business advice I've received in last ten years was from a general contractor when I asked him if he was going to bid a certain new fast food restaurant that has "roast beef" and a big hat. He began to tell me how many new builds they've constructed with just as many remodels under the prior construction management for the chain - at least 30 of each. The GC then began to explain how the chain changed the corp construction management staff and ideology from one of using competent, quick and quality contractors to a bottom dollar low bid model. His reply and best advice was - "I told them I wasn't interested in doing that kind of WORK for that kind of MONEY anymore". Pure genius if you have the skills and ability to back it up. I've fired a couple of GC's and will not work for them for how they treat their subs and run their jobs. Moving towards a negotiated project business model where the GC, designers and owner appreciate quality work, value engineering and timely completion. Skilled labor ain't cheap and cheap labor ain't skilled. The Bernie Mack (rest his sole) triangle - Good, fast, cheap - you can only pick 2 of the 3.
Sure if it's posted on U-tube, Craigslist or ebay it's totally the gospel. One thing to remind folks of-Not Every Job Comes Apart As Easy As The Last One Sometimes it turns to ****.
I've learned in my years before retirement the more specialized you can get in a field of work the less picky your customers become, especially when you aren't a one trick pony.
If it’s to difficult, I pass.. I had a call last night from the father in-law of our old secretary.. She still works at the fuel shop I worked at for about 30 years.. He wanted to know how much I’d charge him to o/h his pump.. I told him “X” and he thru a tantrum.!! I just laughed at him and said why don’t u give it to your daughter in-law and pay double and wait 6 weeks.??!! There was a short pause and he said, “I’ll be over to your place on Monday.”.. (lol)
I can see no T-K, but why the Volvo hate. They're easy peasy
I don't care for Swedish meatballs.
This got me thinking, T-S what do you have in your shop for diagnostic software and hardware? I know you run mostly FL with DD engines, but also some KW? Do you dig deep into electronic engine troubles or send it over to the dealer or sell it down the road?
Snap On. There is so much of what we have that's covered under warranty it really isn't worth the time for the shop to trouble shoot. Plus most of it is bad harness and most of the time it's on recall.
I don’t know about “degree of difficulty” but I think a lot of stuff that isn’t clearly a straightforward repair needs to be purely time and materials and the customer should be told up front stuff is going to cost more for that reason. My shop for some reason quotes a lot of stuff on a “flat rate” repair and we have to write a lot off instead of it being T&M. The flat rate hours are often all messed up because they have been previously “adjusted” for quotes or writing time off so no telling where how close it is to a realistic job time until you get into the repair. a while back I did a full undercarriage job on a machine that had the original undercarriage from 40 years ago when it was built. It was quoted as a flat rate job just like any other undercarriage and we lost our butts on it because of the time factor in getting everything apart. I went through a full set of big O/A tanks on it with the rosebud getting everything apart. When I went to fetch the machine off the drop off line I immediately saw it was going to be an ordeal from all the rust and age but nobody cares what the mechanic thinks.
Engine repair-I only would quote a rough estimate. There is no way to know until it's opened up. Same with gear boxes.
Electrical troubleshooting with circuit boards and no literature I've always done T&M and I tell the customer up front it will take time and it will be expensive. I also tell them that I will order any literature necessary and that will be charged to the customer. They get to keep whatever books I have to purchase. For engine work I sell it as two jobs. There is the removal and reinstall to start with. Then there is tear down and assessment. Only after the assessment is done will I give out any numbers and there is alway an overage factor of about 15%. A good rule of thumb for labor was that any six cylinder diesel with liners in the block was going to run about 100 hours for a teardown and clean, assess, reassembly and test. The test can be on a dyno or in the machine. Those 100 hours do not include machine work. Number of days of actual work I figure at around twelve days time for the overhaul when trying to give an idea of when the engine work might be done with a warning of extra time for parts orders, freight and people issues. Eyes usually get wide open at this point and then people start to shop elsewhere for a bit and then call you back and either order the exchange engine or tell you to get to work.
Running a construction and tree service business, I find everyone wants a flat rate quote, no matter what the project entails. While fixed bid works in some applications, it doesn't work in every situation. A lot of customers don't want to understand that. They willingly let plumbers, electricians, etc in that work strictly on a T&M basis, but then expect me to give a hard quote on every project, no matter what. Residing old barns can run into a lot of structural stuff needing replaced that you can't see until it's stripped. Pruning long tree lines takes a lot of time depending on the trees involved, how the debris is to be handled, site conditions, etc. I can't just give a price per ft as there are too many variables. I can give an approximate range, but then they instantly think I'll do the job for the lowest number mentioned. I no longer give a verbal number unless its going to be a fixed bid job. Also, I've become very clear on any written paper I hand over that it is either an ESTIMATE or FIXED QUOTE. Some folks get it, others don't. Then there's always that guy that wants to add on almost twice the workload after you start a project and expect you not to bill for it. "Well, you were out there anyways. It didn't add that much time..." That particular job added an additional 9 hours of work and he expected it to be included as part of my estimated work I'm a bit sour after a couple of recent jobs. I'll get over it; just need to really watch how I say things and what goes on print.
I would get a little leery when a customer wanted a whole lot of work done after running into a couple situations where they figure you can just do a couple "little" extra's for the same price or figure the price can be negotiated at the end of the job. One job in particular, the customer was really happy with the work when it was being done but when it came time to pay wanted to complain about the same stuff he was really happy with. I think he had planned to do this all along to get his job done cheaper. I almost should have called the police on him. He kind of backhandedly threatened me by telling me he broke the leg of one of the contractors who worked on his house because he thought they charged too much. It's sad when the jobs from hell stick in your mind more than the really good jobs.
Its nice to be retired but i still occasionally help a good friend or family but i make them do most of the work. I like to just 'consult' or only do any real work if they get in a real bind. Thats how they learn. I ain't gonna be around forever. I refuse to help anyone who will not invest any 'sweat equity' like my sister-in-law's husband. He used to refer to me as 'his' mechanic. I think he finally got the hint before i had to tell him to f-off. Whenever anyone tried to tell me how to do a job and how long it would take my response was ' well why didn't you do it yourself? '
How much? Oh,,, well,,, I would normally do it myself you understand but I dont have the tools or know what I am doing but,,, I would do it myself you understand.
I just dont have the time,,, otherwise I would do it myself,,, but I just dont have the time.
If I had a dollar for every theoretically easy job I took on that took 3-4 times longer than it should have because the previous owner did something stupid like welding a final drive drain plug up so it wouldn't take a ratchet...I wouldn't be able to retire, but I could certainly buy a few nice dinners out!
As long as people keep using adjustable/crescent wrenches to keep the corners rounded off you can expect problems.
What about when the customer wants you to feel sorry for them because you have to fix someone else's mess. Sometimes it's best if the customer leaves everything alone instead of trying to do it themself.
Also as long as people continue the laziness of not using anti-seize where it's needed.
If I don't have to think much on a job...........Billed at regular rate. If I have to think a lot and research prints.....Billed at regular rate + difficulty factor of x 1.35. If I have to repair someone elses screw up because you were too cheap in the first place........Billed at regular rate + difficulty factor of 2.50. If its a difficult job and you want to tell me how to do it............Billed at regular rate + difficulty factor of 4.50. If its difficult, you insist on telling me what to do to fix it, and you want to watch.........Billed at regular rate + difficulty factor of 7.25 ..........and your land deed.
I just got done with a car repair that was more fun than I wanted. She is a good customer that I dont wanna hose but took all fricken day and then some with a helper.
The U-tube stuff is pretty funny. I have a story that I like to tell about changing the oil cooler in my service truck. I say, "it took me the better part of a day to do it. Admittedly, I did several other things in the process. But, I was surprised. The u-tube video I watched on it was only twelve minutes long..."
Personally, I just bill time. Unless I have to buy a special tool. Then the customer pays for half the tool that I keep. The thing that gets me is when a customer thinks that the next problem they have is a result of the last thing that I fixed.
Sadly I've always included a pita charge when needed. Its brought on by almost anything....is the customer a dick? How long will it take to get rid of the horse/cow **** and smell from the machine? Do I have to go get a 2" hose and tap a fire hydrant to get the mud and or **** off the machine? The list goes on seemingly forever. And no, I ain't going to bury yer horse thats been dead for a week in July. Ed
Interesting original question. I personally just charge my hourly rate plus all fuel plus all consumables. That's that. Fuel is not a constant as winter running near doubles consumption. Consumables, your anti sieze, loctite etc, as much as it's an overhead it's also me doing things correctly to spec. You ay for that. As for tooling etc, I've been told by people in my contacts that I should / could charge for my track press or hytorc for example but where would it end? I consider that the tools I heavily invest in have got me that job. All my tooling is paid for so why should I be charging more for it?
Some people will charge a little higher rate if they're using a very specialized tool that not many people have. Paying 5 or $10 more per hour or an extra charge like $25 for something like a track press isn't too unreasonable. Should note that in Alberta the rates for mechanics are quite high with the larger shops charging $150+/hr. and the field mechanics even more.
I know for a fact that one of the major dealers down here charged $160USD/hr for field mechanics a year ago. That may well have increased. I'm quite content to pay the independent guy I use for more advanced work $100/hr.
If your independent guy charged $25 or even $50 more to use a track press(or other specialized tool) is still a better deal for you.
Absolutely, and he'd be well within his rights to do so. He bills all jobs at the same rate (although there's one corporate client who I suspect will get a higher rate if they try to come crawling back after a history of late/nonpayment).
This right here is a fine example of {Sucker}. A friend that runs a machine/fab shop had a customer bring in a Landoll like the one below {crappy trailer}. Customer wanted the steel diamond plate deck replaced front to rear. Trailer is a 1994. So friend calls me to come look at it {I look at it and laugh}. I told him once you peel the deck off all the crossmembers and stringers will be rusted through where the deck lays on top of them {typical of steel decked beds of any kind}. So he told the customer the issue it will be time and materials and what ever that comes to. Customer said do it. . Customer **** when he came to pick it up. $21,000. He bought a pig to begin with. Not the same trailer below-but like it.