Hello all. I am new to the forum and hate to admit it but got took on a loader i just acquired. Did not do my due diligence as i should have. Seller was so convincing! Anyway, this is a Cat 426 Backhoe Loader with the 4.236 Perkins. When i looked at it it was a warm day and it started right up and everything worked as it should. Had it delivered to my house and the next day i tried to start it and no go. So called seller and he said he did have to use a "little" starter fluid to get it going. One can later it was barely running and was missing and blowing out white smoke. After about 10 minutes of this it was running but rough and would not rev up. Five minutes later it started running more smoothly. THEN the whole engine started smoking like crazy. Blow by galore! Bottom line is i have no idea what is wrong, so i am looking for ideas on how to fix it. So, i am looking for someone who can let me know what the problem might be. Thanks for your help.
How cold was it that you had to give her ether? My thoughts are, some harm was done when using the starting fluid. You stated it started and ran nicely when you inspected it. No reason to believe that would have changed. Another fella, recently but something. Same deal, had it dropped off, and it wouldn't start. I think he wound up finding algae in the fuel restricting fuel flow. Good luck.
One can of starter fluid? Oh boy that's not good. That washes the oil off the cylinder walls.
Maybe ya shoulda visited the forum and asked some questions before adding a whole can of knocka-knocka juice...our thoughts and prayers are with ya....If no damage was done maybe new filters and a tank flush are in order..good luck...
when you had it delivered, did it start and run ok when you drove it off the trailer and parked it? If so, was the engine cold when it got to your place on the trailer?
Welcome to HEF, Rocket Man ! I edited your comments down to one (sadly) important comment. Blow-by galore. You can remove the oil filler cap to see how much blow-by is coming out with the engine running. If it is truly a lot of blow-by coming out of the crankcase breather tube you may have some serious problems. If you did use a lot of ether to get it started that may have done great harm to the pistons and cylinder walls. There is even a possibility of one or more bent connecting rods. I think removing the fuel injectors and doing a compression test is in order. IMHO !
Did u try bleeding the pump by loosening the bleed screw by the name plate on the pump.?? Loosen it & crank the engine until fuel shoots out & no air & tighten.. Next, loosen all the steel lines AT THE INJECTORS..& crank the engine until fuel squirts out & tighten.. Next, hold the throttle to WIDE OPEN and crank the engine.. It should start now..
OK everyone. Been at this thing all day and that is why i have not replied. Couple of mechanics i consulted with today admitted that i really got took on this deal. LOL Anyway had a long conversation with the guy whos sold it to me and he admitted he has been starting it with either for a long time. Admitted it took a long time to start when cold. That tells me the engine does need overhauling. I am now looking at an engine rebuild. So my question now is,,, Can i do an in-frame rebuild on it? It appears that i can but was wondering if anyone has ever done that. Thanks to all for your comments/replies.
It was about 60 degrees here in El Paso. But i suspect the injector pump is bad. But the seller has been using ether for a long time, he tells me.
Yes, the seller says he used it a long time and all that time it was grinding the metal off the sleeves and that is why it has so much blow-by.
Oh yes. ran fine in the beginning but we had trouble getting off the truck and that is when it got warmed up and started smoking like crazy. The driver had picked it up from seller only one hour before and that is why it started right up. Next morning it was 60 degrees and would not hit a lick.
OH yes, out the filler cap and blowing oil out the dipstick. Such a shame. Going to have to do an in-frame rebuild looks like,
Oh the damage was done long before i bought the machine. Seller admitted it was only way to start it every day,mhot or cold. Never told me until it was too late,i already boughjt it.
Yes, i did do all that. But did not help it at all. I have owned diesel tractors in the past and am familiar with the bleeding process. I did all that before i called the seller who told me he has used ether for a long time. By then i knew the engine must be toast so i went ahead and started it the same way. So boils down to the seller lying to me and deliberately misleading me just to sell it. No worries though, his Maker will rectify the issue.
You buy from private person or dealer?
Private and not much i can do except beat him up? I jsut let myself down here and prepared to take my lumps. I failed me.
Hopefully ya didn't get gouged too bad so rebuild is cost effective...
How about a S/N so if you need some info we can be talking about the right machine? If I was going to buy a used machine one thing I would want to do is touch the engine before it was started. If cold good if nice and warm I'd get very suspicious that it had a starting problem.
Before diving in too deep, check the compression, a tune-up might solve all problems. Valve timing, fuel timing, injector spray pattern. Polish the fuel and replace the filters, as the pump guy said. If, after a tune-up, a overhaul is warranted, I'd look at used engine prices, before throwing parts at your current engine.
Oh yes those rules apply! But seller went to a lot of trouble concealing the faults. Very cleaver and lied about everything i pointed out and was not bashful about it. Asked lots of questions and was lied to about it all. Trust people? your call. SN# is 7B000580. I can not find anything on it. It is supposed to be (per seller !!) 1991 Cat 426. I do not believe that now.
Yes to all that which i completely overlooked. I did get a good deal on it tho. $1oK was final amount after some fancy footwork. LOL SN # 7B000580
I ended up with $10K and i looked at alot of these loaders and nothing under $15K close by me. So i have room to grow.
Oh my gosh ! What a sorry a** guy that seller is. I always live by what goes around comes around. He will get his a** handed to him eventually. It may be when he meets his maker. Remove the engine and do it right. Crankshaft seals front and back. Pull the camshaft, measure the lobs and install new cam bearings. You will never regret doing that.
You are correct, it will eventually return to the wrong doer! Yes, gonna do it right. You know, that engine is heavy so gonna have to rig up a hoist. That way if i ever sell it i won't have to lie to anyone.
Go to eBay and search "4.236 Perkins" and you'll see lots of parts and used engines available.
Yes and i also looked at the over haul kits on line and an amazed at how cheap the kits are. Gonna have heck pulling those liners though. The motor actually sound solid, no knocking or engine shaking etc. Just blowing oil and smoking like heck.
Wow!! I did go there and am totally confused. The 4.236 Perkins must have 50 different versions of the engine. Trouble is, which one is right for the Cat 426? I can not seem to pinpoint the right configuration for my machine. There are tons for the Massey Fergusons but nothing for Cat. Is there really a difference? Maybe the engine serial number will be the Key?
This engine was widely used. Supposedly over 2 million produced. https://www.perkins.com/en_GB/company/heritage/products/perkins-4236.html And from just googling, it appears there's just 2 types of this engine. Standard and marine versions. https://www.parts4engines.com/perkins-4-236-engine-overhaul-kit/
I see that. However when perusing the kits i see a considerable number of variations of the engines. It appears that some have a letter in front of the engine. ie C4.236 etc. Some the kits warn to make sure the engine serial number is correct. So am currently boiling all the information down to make sure i get what i need. It is surprising to see how inexpensive these kit are.
Just me, but I'd take the engine out, take it apart, inspect the parts, then find out who is reliable, and then CALL with all the numbers you have available. There are plenty of used engines of various reputation, plenty of parts of various reputation for this engine. In the end, a rebuilt engine will be minor compared to what all can go wrong, if the rest of the machine is good and solid, then you'll do fine with it. If the rest of the machine is weak and equally trashed, might want to sell it for a loss and move on. The engine could be a fraction of the total work it needs worst case.
You sure that serial is right? Nothing found on Cat's web site. Nige should be along soon to help. Could it be 7BC000580? If so it was built in 1986. If you don't know already you will need the serial number to get the right parts. I have the same machine just a hair newer. 7BC001596. I picked mine up for $9k knowing it needed one boom cylinder rebuilt and a lot of TLC. It was dented and the boom dropped. My machine is an old town machine. I am doing a bunch of work to mine to bring it up to my standards. I repacked all the cylinders except two. Had one rebuilt with a new cylinder and piston the other I had repacked and a new rod made. Mostly what I am doing is fixing all the little stuff, making sure everything works, hoses are replace, etc. I am now working on replacing rusty metal in the cab and fixing the seat. I looked for a full size machine for a while. I wanted CAT, Deere or CASE and 4wd. I wanted pre electronic injection and all the newer emission stuff. I want something I can fix without specialized equipment. $25,000 seemed to be hat I had to spend for a machine in good condition. I figured for $9k I could not go wrong. So far it is looking like I will have $15-17,000 sunk into this machine. This will be a machine with all new hoses, all cylinders repacked, new glass, 4 new tires and everything working. Your seller was pretty deceitful but you still got a good deal. You just have to fix her up.
Another lie ............ The Serial Number is actually 7B C 00580. Manufactured December 1986, likely not first sold by a dealer until early/mid-1987.
Perkins 4.236 engine should be easily rebuildable with plenty of both OEM and aftermaket parts available for it. Like others have already posted I think I'd be more inclined to remove it rather than try to in-frame it. Pumpguy will be happy to help you with the fuel injection pump & injectors.
I’ve been watching this thread to find out what it was.. So is it a Perkins or a Cat.?? Any way to send pictures.?? I’ll gladly send u my home email or telephone number to get pics if it’s easier.. If it’s a 4.236 it’ll have a CAV injection pump on it.. BUT PLEASE, don’t scrape the name plate.!! Some gasket/paint remover in a spray can is your best friend.. OR even some easy-off oven cleaner is better than scraping.. I’ve done thousands of the fuel systems.. BOTH industrial and marine. Lemme know if I can help..
With 1986 build date it'll be a genuine Perkins D4.236 - from long before they became Perkapillar. Snip from the Parts Manual.
WOW. I am a mirror image of your situation. YES, That serial number is what you said because the stamp "C" looks just like a zero. LOL. My boom does drift down which the seller never told me about amongst all the orther stuff that is broke or bad. I will probably spend way more than you cause my motor is bad. Sheet metal is all in pretty good shape. Injector pump is bad too.
Thanks for interest. You are jut the person that can help me. It is a Perkins and SN is actually 7BC00580. the c looks like a zero. I will post pics sometime today. Yes, it has the Lucas/Cav pump with a number of 3343F74?. i can't make out the last number but it could be a 1 or4. However, i did learn from a rebuilder that there is a number of these pumps will work on this machine as long as i, or rebuilder, can get the set code ? In your opinion, is that correct? Seems to me that pre computer machines built with this motor and pump should all have the same set code? I can see part of the code and once i remove the pump i will see the whole thing. Yes, I will post some pics today.
OK. Thanks for the info. Been trying to find out what year it was but was using wrong SN# LOL. So, when i order parts i should be sure and put the prefix D? ie D4.236? Also, if i just ordered parts for the 4.236 would i get some wrong parts? I find it hard to get a grip on an engine that has the same displacement and configuration that will have many different parts? Been looking at rebuild kits online and there are so many that seem to be for the 4.236 but will different part numbers.!! Thanks, for the help.
Rocketman, I would PM thepumpguysc and see when he could do the pump, and how much$$
4.236 or D4.236.? Not sure it makes a difference. Maybe someone else can chime in on that. What you should bear in mind is that the 4.236 was installed in a myriad of different applications all over the world. The best way to guarantee correct parts is a Serial Number - See below. If you look right at the bottom of the attachment I posted above in #32 you'll find the engine Serial Number from back when it was built. It is very likely that engine is still in it, but you should check by looking for a physical Serial Number plate somewhere on the engine to confirm that.
Maybe to save RM a few bucks (and I'm not trying to do pumpguy out of work..!) with all the blowby & everything else that is wrong with the engine how can anyone be sure at this time that the FIP is actually bad..? I might suggest considering to rebuild the engine with all new shiny internals plus a set of new (or recon) injectors first and see how it performs before declaring the pump bad.
OK. I looked at your attachment and found this number "00128179" listed as the engine serial number. Then i went out to machine and on the left side of block just above the injector pump i found this number " LD70201U128179N". So appears that part of the number is listed in your attachment but not sure why all the other numbers on the block. Right under the number there is a large "t" in raised format. Might be a casting id?
Good advice but the pump is leaking fuel like crazy and after it runs awhile i can see smoke coming from the pump like it is getting very hot. Could the hard start thing be the lift pump? I read that if lift pump was bad it would be difficult to start.
I will do that as soon as i figure out how. I need to move fast and fix this machine.
Go to post 34 on the previous page. hover your cursor over the pumpguy's name and you will see it's a hyperlink. Click on that and a box will open. The "start a conversation" is a hyperlink in that box. Simples.
Do a compression test on your motor. This will at least tell you there is a chance you only need the injection pump fixed. Thepumpguy comes highly rated and I would not hesitate to use him. Get your pump and injectors squared away. Check the tank, my return tube was clogged and the seller had rigged a piece of rubber hose to get it running. He disclosed this and showed me. He thought it was sucking air but my diagnosis revealed it was not and was just clogged. A coat hanger broke up the clog and some compressed air opened up the line. Looking in the tank it is pretty clean just a little corrosion at the very top. If the return is messed up it can cause issues too. A bad pump, out of time pump, restricted feed or return line can all cause hard starting. Fuel smoke can be caused by incorrect timing or issues with the injectors. Send those with the pump. While the pump is out for repair check and verify all the fuel plumbing is correct, clean and not damaged. One step at a time. Don't let the scope of the project overwhelm you. Even if you do need to rebuild the engine you would want the pump and injectors checked and inspected. You want your rebuild to run perfect. Post some pictures. I would love to see. You drifting boom is most likely just cylinders that need repacking. Not hard to do but it takes some muscle.
He did mention he had a lot of blowby when he removed oil cap. That's not good.
The engine has a tremendous amount of blow-by leading me to believe it probably has broken rings. Maybe bad valve guides This blow-by is so bad oil is coming from the dipstick. Gonna have to put it all on hold until i have time to work on it. I wil post pics of the machine and of rebuilding when i do the work. Have already communicated with pumpguy. Now it is a matter of timing.
Yes and it is not minor either. I mean it blows oil out the dipstick like crazy. Something major is broken.
Well sounds like you need to decide which way you are going on this one! I'd say it sounds obvious the engine has some major problem on one or maybe all cylinder causing the blow-by. I would be looking for a good used engine, that can be tricky for sure. Or if set on fixing this one I would put check book away till the thing is down to or close to the bare block. I just hate hearing about someone who has sent pump out and ordered $2,000 of parts only to find out the day those parts show up the crank and or block are scrap!
I forget you mentioned there was significant blow by. A compression test would still be worth doing. You should perform enough diagnosis so you know what you will find when you disassemble. As was mentioned. Perform tests and tear down before ordering any parts.
Rebuild kits are cheap. So he'd get new pistons and sleeves. Main thing is to tear it down and inspect the crank and bearings.
And I'd add to the inspection list the block especially the top deck. It would be a shame to have a rebuild kit and find out the counter bores for the sleeves were cracked of some such problem.
Yes to tear down first. I used to rebuild old Ford tractors, m8N, 2N and 9N. Learned real quick to take it down and then get parts. LOL My question is how hard is it to pull the sleeves on these Perkins? IO had a special puller for the Fords but those pistons ar smaller then the Perkins.
I would suggest a Parts Manual would be a good investment. The Cat Publication reference is SEBP1569. Here's one that suits your Serial number and it's a steal @ $20. A brand-new one in paper form is $150. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Caterpillar-CAT-426-Backhoe-Loader-Parts-Manual-SEBP1569-1991-/133413050740 Attached the procedure to R&I the liners. Note the comment about potentially cracking the block if caution is not used when removing liners. As a thought dry ice might be a good way of shrinking the new ones to help them go in eaiser.
Yes and i already paid for one (used) on Ebay for 35 bucks. That was over a week ago and its still sitting the PO at Red Hill Pa. and no telling when it will be shook loose. I will need to get all the specs cause it will be done right. I think you pointed out that my engine , based on the serial number, is the original one that came with the machine. I have to look closely to determine if it has ever been modified, as in over hauled.
That much blow-by is usually the result of a broken piston. That is one situation you must never use ether to try and start it !
Yes,i agree that it is major. But i suspect that the rings and sleeves are toast. With broken piston i would get a very rough running engine and little power. Not the case here, the engine ,once i get it started runs pretty smooth with no popping bucking or snorting and still has power to operate the bucket full of dirt.
Speaking of the boom cylinders, i was out today trying to figure how to get them off and pretty much decided they were too heavy for me even if i got them loose. I was not able to determine exactly how to get them off so maybe you can walk me through the steps as to what and how to do it. It looks like there some pins that have to be driven out? Also, about how much do they weigh? All help is appreciated.
If you can extend the boom on / over a concrete pad or floor an engine hoist works good. It does for me anyway.
If for nothing else but curiosity.. Get the engine smoking and 1x1 loosen the line AT THE INJECTORS & look at the exhaust.. if the loosened line doesn’t change the smoke, retighten & move to the next.. THAT’LL tell u if u have a problem with a certain cylinder.. Good luck..
Engine needs rebuilt you will have to either get the mandrel or had one made to pull sleeves the sleeves are very thin and can break wile installing so be careful I use a hydraulic ram to remove and install sleeves check sleeves before installing sometimes the get cracked in shipping
I was wondering if running a ring or two of weld round the inside of the old cylinder liners would help to shrink them and get them out easier. Shrinking the replacements using dry ice to assist with installation is looking more of a solution based on Dave's comments.
liners are really thin I would be afraid to weld on them
great idea. Don]t have a hoist but they are cheap and can buy one at that local cheap tool place. lol Thanks
Great idea. I will do that when i get back to it.
When i was rebuilding the old ford i did that a couple of times but only on the ones that had the .090 liners. The .040 sleeves were easy to get out, very brittle and broke like glass when removed by using a screwdriver. I have not been able to determine the size of these sleeves for the Perkins but according to Dave they must be very thin and fragile.
Thanks for that information and can you tell me the thickness of the walls? If very thin i know how to get them out without special tool. Also, do i use Loctite on new ones when i press new ones back in?
Oh yes and another question. What should i expect to see smoke wise if there is a cylinder that is bad? I am guessing that the somke would be dark and heavy?
I would say white unburnt fuel
They come off fairly easy. The boom cylinders have a roll pin that retains them to the pin. Bang out the roll pin then slide the cylinder off. I did them by myself. They weigh 115 lbs. One of mine had to have a new cylinder and piston made. There was a dent and the piston was tore up pretty good. I took it to the shop in pieces but installed it in one piece. It is heavy but not crazy. I put one end on and then use a ratchet strap on the other end to lift it while I line things up. Worked fine. Here is a pdf I have of the procedure.
Great!! I really appreciate it. I figured they were heavy, but not that heavy. Buying a crane lift from the cheap tool place to help me out. No way could i handle 115 pounds, i am way past that age, LOL. You just saved me from a difficult learning curve.
Glad to help. Buy yourself a good 3/4" drive breaker bar or ratchet, a 1-1/2" socket and a 6-8' long piece of pipe. If someone used red loctite on the piston bolt you will need to heat it up to get the bolt free. Red Loctite needs heat to release. If not you will breaker the ratchet/breaker bar. That bolt is very tight, 820 lb.-ft. I have an extra boom cylinder seal kit. I bought it but then found one cylinder was damaged and had to pay to have that one rebuilt. if you are interested I will give you a killer deal. Just PM me.
Thanks for the information , very detailed. I do think that the procedure will be more than i can handle. LOL Anyway, i managed to find a company that will repair the cylinders for about $200 buck each, i just have to take them off and take them there. That's where the motor crane comes in handy. Odd thing is, the cylinders are not leaking anywhere and the rods are shiny and look new. No pits or nicks anywhere. Now i am beginning to wonder if it's the spooler that is leaking down? I have no idea on how to determine which one is bad. I need to look further into the symptoms.