I am looking to buy a new Case 580 in the next few months, for a new business I am opening. The short story is- I need to change careers after a workplace injury, and heavy equipment makes sense. I plan to use the machine in the winter for snow removal, and in the summer for septic installations, pad installs for above ground pools, stump removal, and small jobs for home owners that other larger companies tend to shy away from (the one or two hour deals). I also plan to offer my services to contractors, small landscaping companies and the like. I anticipate a machine with 4 X 4, extend-a-hoe, aux. lines to the front, and the ability to change between a GP bucket (or 4in1), forks and snowplow. I felt the backhoe, while not the ideal tool for every task, offers the flexibility I need for all the different tasks. My operating experience is with basic 580Ks and an older 580M, so I would love some advice on the value of some options on the newer 580s. FYI, going with Case partially because of my experience with them, but also because the dealer here is amazing to work with. Flexibility and reducing fatigue is important to me, and I am looking for the best fit to do both small and larger jobs. I will be roading it a fair bit in the winter, going from job to job, and also in the sumer when a small job is within a few miles. So, here are my questions... 580 N, Super N, and WT- I know these machines have different engines, but how big of a difference is there between the N and Super N in terms of power, and will I notice it on a daily basis? The sales guy said that the WT is not a lot more cash but is a lot more machine, what does the WT offer over the SUper N? 4 in 1 bucket- I like the different things I can do with a 4 in 1 bucket, but do they add to the complexity and upkeep any amount? Is there a downside to having a 4 in 1 bucket? Ride control- is this an expensive option? Is it worth getting? Is it prone to breakage or require much upkeep? I plan on getting a single axle dumptruck with float to haul it and help with some different jobs. Any advice from folks out there with experience with the newer Case stuff is appreciated.
Wow, I don't think I'd be looking at a new machine to start out, those payments are rough! There is a good reason around here the big outfits don't do little jobs, you can't get enough money to be worthwhile. You are competing with rental machines and the fact that everybody and his brother-in-law has an old hoe and will do stuff like that for $20/hr and think he's making extra money. on edit: I would definitely get a 4-in-1,and extendahoe, the few extra grease fittings and extra weight are definitely worth it. Good luck, Mitch
Thanks, Mitch. The decision to look at a new machine is mostly driven by the fact that Workers Compensation will be providing a chunk of the start- up cash, so I won't have the big payments. I felt that a new machine would almost eliminate concerns about break- downs, and the new Case offer that starts in another month for a 3 year warranty and all associated maintenance costs included in the machine price is pretty compelling.
You need to think long and hard on this one. Sometimes I wonder if I'm making a living or not. If there is plenty of work to do and you know there is then by all means. Around here its feast or famine and mostly famine. Been in the business all my life and now own it out right. When its good , its a gratifying thing , work , make money , more work. When its slow , the bills still keep coming.
It's a weird dynamic here, right now. A couple large businesses shut down, and the owners moved out west where there is more work. As I said, the larger companies need larger chunks of work, so there is a demand for smaller jobs that is not being filled. Having said that, the folks with a backhoe in the back yard who used to throw in a small septic field for a cottage no longer do it, because of a new licence & inspection requirement, and larger companies don't want to get into the small jobs, only the package deals for septic, foundation, landscaping, etc.. In the winter, every second guy with a truck has a plow hanging off it, but it is rare to see a backhoe or loader on small and medium jobs (large lots have their own dedicated equipment), so I thought rather than compete with the plow trucks, I would offer to help push back the banks and stack it at an hourly rate. I *think* I will do OK if I am smart in choosing my work, and building good relationships with folks that I can partner with... for example, there are a LOT of houses around here with wellheads that are 5 - 6 feet underground, and if *anything* happens to them, they are required to extend the well casing to above grade. Problem is, it's hard for the plumbers to get a hoe to dig up the the underground wellhead, because it is only an hours work one day, then an hour or two after the repair is done. I don't mind the piecemeal work, I really don't need to make quite as much, because I will also be receiving a pension as part of a permanent disability award, so I am a little better off than some. Lots of big projects coming to town in the next couple years, my biggest concern is getting the right equipment, so I have flexibility.
Good advice Mitch!
where abouts are you located trevor b
I just gotta put my $0.02 in here. I have gone from working as an engineer in manufacturing to consulting to starting and owning a marine business for more than 20 years. I think rather than trying to select the exact equipment just pick a dollar amount. (I looked at a used 2012 Case 580 and it was almost $90,000). You need to look at ROI, return on investment. When I had to do the calcs in manufacturing it was based on a 5 year return, now most equipment is based on 2 year return. You may be getting a lump sum of money but could it be used for something better and buy a less expensive machine? Our economy has left a lot of equipment idle and people looking for cheap prices will find it from those who have been in business for years and are struggling. Starting a business is not a piece of cake and being more like a Mom&Pop type operation with very little put into it might be the way to get your feet wet. It would be ashamed to put a big chunk of money into a business and still have some payments and not enough money to pay bills. Looking back at the start of my marine business, I put a paid roof over my head by building my own house, bought used cheap equipment to start. I was small but grew very fast. However it could have all flopped and if it did, I would have still had a paid roof over my head with few bills. Being older, I have had so many friends and acquaintances who thought they would jump into a business but of course failed, the odds are against making it. The less cash invested to start the better.
I've been there too. Here's a few things off the top of my head of what I have learned. Be prepared to be off of the machine using skills, tools and techniques that you may not have or be familiar with. Having a backhoe may get you the job, but it will usually require lots of other equipment to complete a contract. Also, being small, you will rely on family to freely support you and the effort, and I don't just mean running for parts and ordering sod. Make sure they are aware now of what will be asked of them to do, probably for free as being a part of the family. Also, figure on cashflow issues, as many people will pick someone who is new (read inexperienced) and then string them out for money: be very aware of this. The next thing is be aware that in seeking the small jobs, you will be expected to somewhat clean up each evening and go to look at new work with a smile on your face to get it before someone else does. You can't really take a night off from this, unless you happen to be feasting at the time. And you should be good at turning wrenches and diagnosing problems. Even with a new machine, the downtime associated with waiting for a warantee repair is brutal. Be prepared to fix whatever you can to keep you on a jobsite. Single axle truck and float - get ready to be indoctrinated into the world of commercial motor vehicle compliance. I recommend a sedative. Whatever you do financially, do not bankroll your business on the HST that is due the government - that is the quickest way to insolvency. Set asided religiously about 15% to cover HST if you are in Ontario or PQ or BC. Don't buy those promotional pens, paper pads, newspaper sponsorships, team sponsorships, radio spots, etc. That will not provide any ROI for at least the first 5 years. Don't get a postage machine - long story here. Buy good grease and use it. Figure on getting pretty buddy buddy with city inspectors, locate technicians, plumbers, electricians, block layers, concrete finishers, landscapers, etc in order to get more leads. Be prepared to scratch their backs. That is a short list.
are you an experienced machine operator?
are you an experienced machine operator?
very well said deere john been there done that got the bald head to prove it trevor b
What Deere John said plus I know for me just getting on and off my machine is a killer for my knees. Once I've done it for a few days I'm ok but being fit is going to be important. If you have had a workplace injury it better not be in your knees. As far as working for yourself, plan on very long hours. As john said you will be spending lots of time for free to quote and look at jobs, it's part of sales and it's hard to put into jobs as the quote goes up. I spent hours and hours at night doing invoices, used QuickBooks on the computer but it still took hours. We lived on an island and had no bridges to the mainland. Every trip for parts and supplies took time as we had to hop into a boat and head out. My wife's major job was to get the parts and supplies, it became a full time job for her. If you are not near your supplies it will take up a good part of your day. Pre planning for each day and week is a must. I do that now just on my farm trying to build a house, nothings close buy and every hour counts for me. You might want to consider trying to find a job working for a contractor driving a piece of equipment and see how you do with it. With a lump sum coming in I would work at reduced pay to see if you can handle it. Remember having a bright shinny new piece of equipment does not constitute having a business.
Thanks. You'll notice that what I said had basically nothing to do with running a backhoe . It's all about managing your time, expectations, work, cash, receivables, family, and spending the time to build relationships with others who impact your running of a business . If it were easy, everybody would do it. It's not easy.
Deere John hit the nail on the head regarding a business. Especially the fact of running a backhoe is only a tiny piece of the puzzle, all other comments he speaks of are so true. Just remember, mother nature and the public will deal you some HARSH BLOWS that you will be forced to deal with on a routine basis. Good Luck with that new 580 Case hoe.
Thanks for the words of wisdom, and the voice of caution. To answer a few questions, I have had a few hundred hours on my own backhoes, certainly not an expert, but not quite a beginner. I would expect as part of the re-training that they would send me through a formal heavy equipment training course, if nothing else but to give me a better grounding in worksite safety and give me a certification that is more & more in demand. I already have my Class 1 drivers licence (tractor trailer), and the commercial vehicle enforcement folks certainly intimidate me a bit. I think the thing that worries me most is the time required to make a go of it. My workplace injury is PTSD from years of serving as a Flight Paramedic, and I can not work long hours anymore, need work hour flexibility, and I doubt I would find a boss that would understand when I can not work on a particular day because of my symptoms. Working on equipment tends to tire me out, but it also does not ramp up my symptoms like other things does. I also have trouble interacting with a lot of the people, which may make it hard for networking. I am limited for what I am now able to achieve or do for work... For example, PTSD wrecks your concentration, so going back to school for a few years to be re-trained as something else is almost out of the question. I only have one shot at getting into another line of work, this job rehab process is very rigid, and if Workers Compensation can get me working for another contractor on a limited basis, they will likely pension me off and cut me loose without investing too much in me. I'm thinking I may be underestimating the background work involved, me thinks I need to put more thought into this.
Sorry, I didn't mean to overwhelm you with the challenges of business, although there are many. There are a few benefits as well: pride of accomplishment, recognition after years of achievement, and probably more money, again after the years. You also ge to meet all kinds of people, many who will want to pick your brain and borrow your tools rather than hire you outright. Most people are genuine and good, though. Think about it this way: you are about to go into the money-making business. You are choosing to make your money with a backhoe, so put together a business plan to firstly make money that is done with your knowledge, skills, family commitment and the backhoe, probably in that order of importance. Best of luck!
Thanks, John. So, an open question for anyone who wants to voice an opinion... For every billable hour in the seat, how many hours are there to maintain the gear, run down the contracts, and do all the background stuff?
My experience is 2:1.
Yeah, at least 2:1, maybe 2.5:1. And you WILL deal with some very frustrating people and red tape. P.S. John, I like that dog's expression, that's just the way I feel some days.
I would guess it at 3:1. Alot of office work to be done also..... This depends alot on the number of employees beside yourself you have to deal with too......
Wow, I wish I could get back to around 2 hours of Bulls**t to 1 hour of operating. I spend over twice that........wife has her own job and does not want any of mine. So as head mechanic, accountant, labor, parts chaser, estimator, phone answerer ( I loath solicitors) and overall go to guy. I spend less than half my time operating the various pieces of machinery I own. I also started with just a backhoe and truck. I soon discovered that I had to have someone to check grade, hold shovel, guide me in the blind spots. Etc. Then after time bigger jobs required more equipment. If I could do it all over again I think I would buy a septic truck, put an ad in the Yellow Pages and make some money!
I'd like to chime in here also... I can see where your coming from, and if it were me, I would take the course offered, the lump sum and invest wisely. Lets say, 50 grand, you can get a good decent second hand hoe and small dump and trailer for that. Also, no payment's. From what you said, if a machine would break down, you can now afford to wait and have it repaired, get to know a mechanic, (the barter system works well). Location, location, location are important, and only you know that. Word of mouth is also what you should be working with, you want work, but not too much from what I've read. If you feel ill one week, take it off, you can now afford too, if you go second hand. Worst comes to worst, you can sell your equipment for a minimal loss. Thats what I'd do. As far as what machine to get, I don't know, this is also new to me. Rick
Lease for a couple of years . I had a rental business a few years back .When it came to big equipment we would lease to rent . 1 week rental would pay for the lease for the month anything after that was profit . After 3 years or what ever the term was the equipment goes back and we get new equipment again .I have learned over the years keep your capital {cash** and borrow . Intrest rates are cheap , oh and don't forget the insurance .The single axel dump truck will require a saftey yearly ,at least it was back in my day