Hi guys. I was doing some light digging with my 1980 case 580c. I started to hear a weird sound, sort of a consistent slap. I went to shut down the machine by pulling the fuel shutoff and it kept running but at a very rough low idle. I removed the key and still didnt shut off. I got out and saw smoke coming from the starter wire connections. I got it to stall by using the bucket and it sort of shut off but the motor still cycled really slow. I disconnected the battery to shut off the machine. When i try to reconnect the battery, i get a big spark and the starter clicks. I checked for worn wires but found nothing. Could a failed starter solenoid cause the starter to continue to run? Thanks for any advice, i appreciate the help.
Yeah. Sounds like the solenoids terminals are welded together. Let me guess, was the battery voltage low when you originally started it today? Did you jump start it? Low voltage creates a higher amperage draw. And that melts the terminals. Often, catching on fire and burning down the machine. After the red-hot cables catch everything on fire.
I'd get the meter out and verify no power on the wire that engages the starter solenoid. If no power there, disconnect it from the starter. If it still tries to crank, time to replace the starter.
Thanks Coaldust, nope, it started right up like normal. although I have have noticed an intermittant alt light on the dash every once in a while.Could that be related to my problem?
Maybe. To be on the safe side, before you put a new starter on it, check the wire going to the S terminal on the starter solenoid to be sure it’s off. No power. Maybe your ignition switch stuck in the crank position. Like 92U suggested.
Thanks guys, let me tell you what I tried today. Please forgive my ignorance but I am not very knowledgable when it comes to electrical troubleshooting or even testing. So I am not sure what the S terminal is.I attached photos of the starter,and the solenoid has a stud for positive battery cable and a plastic connector for a jumper wire that goes to a solenoid mounted on the motor just above the starter,I removed the start button on the dash and unplugged it. The starter clicked and the battery cable sparked when I touch the negative cable to the battery post, I did the same thing with the ignition switch.I removed it, unplugged it and still the same thing happened. I cleaned the positive battery cable going to the starter.Nothing so far has stopped the starter from clicking when energized.The only other connection is the ground strap that goes on one of the mounting bolts and the wire that connects the solenoid to the starter motor,Also that plastic plug broke apart from whatever it was connected to inside the starter when I was trying to remove it. Also, I hooked up a battery to the starter using jumper cables, positive to the stud and negative to the body.Nothing happened. The battery is fairly new and charged. can a starter fry or malfunction while the backhoe is running? I am a novice to this machine but i love to learn thanks to you guys.
There is a nut on your solenoid that is about 17 or 19 mm in size. Beside it is a black plastic plug with a terminal inside. That is the S-Terminal. It has to be powered up for the starter to go. If no wire is attached like 92U said, and it tries to engage your starter is junk.
Thanks Simon, thats the plastic plug that broke off from the wire inside the starter when I was trying to remove the screw. I attached a pic of me holding that plastic plug and the hole in the starter next to the positive battery connection stud.You can see the drilled out screw and the chunk of wire still attached sticking out to of the left side of the plug.If I put the starter back in and leave that plastic plug out,will that be the same as what you described? The only thing connected then would be the positive battery cable and ground strap. Or would that wire being broken off inside the starter body create a problem if it is touching the starter body?? i am willing to reinstall it tomorrow if that will diagnose if the starter is junk. thanks to all you guys for the help,,it sucks being uneducated to this.
If it is broken off to the inside of the starter, you need a new starter from what I know. That has to be a tight secured connection that is not loose on the starter. Simon C
Raypan, Excuse my absence, I had to step out for a bit. Yes, starter motors can fail spontaneously. Sometimes, with great consequence. Having a battery disconnect switch, IMO, is a very important safety feature. Trying to disconnect a run-away starter motor can be difficult and it catches you off-guard, as you learned. I’ve seen a lot of machine fires that could have been stoped or prevented with a battery disconnect switch.
WOW!!! That's a great idea Coaldust. I was scrambling to figure out how to kill the machine.Cutting off fuel slowed it down but didn't shut it off completely.I will need a new starter anyway because of the broken wire inside, so hopefully that solves my problem. Do you recommend having mine rebuilt or should I go with buying a new or rebuilt elsewhere? thanks again guys,,,
A thread from here discussing a battery disconnect HeavyEquipmentForums
I guess I am not the only one who had this happen!!! This is a post from that thread. "If you ever have a starter solenoid that sticks in the crank position the disconnect will save your starter. Have you ever tried to get a battery cable off while smoke is pouring from an overheated starter." Thanks for the link Swetz
Depends what you have available in your area. I don’t think a local rebuilder will touch that. Besides, it’s probably toast. I would look at Wilson Electric. They are my favorite source for rotating electric. NAPA is a good source for Wilson. Sometimes, the dealer has good options. Or, take a chance on EBay. Do you have an independent auto electric shop/supplier in your area?
I dropped it off this morning to an electric place that does a lot of pump and motor rebuild for my employer. He said he would check it and determine what happened.It needs to be repaired or replaced because of that broken plug wire.This case 580C has a 4 post starter solenoid mounted right above the starter. Picture attached. Could that have failed and sent power to the starter? The left post that has no wire attached is where the jumper wire from the positive post on the starter connected.
When you say positive post on the starter, going to the left post on the solenoid are you talking the large battery cable at the starter solenoid , or the small signal cable. If that left terminal went to the starter S-Terminal that is broken, then the solenoid is suspect of being welded on contacts. If that cable went to main starter solenoid positive post , you still would have a control circuit problem. Broken terminal has to get power from a source unless it is getting power at the broken area. Simon C
Raypan, It’s not uncommon for the OEM to use an extra relay for the starter solenoid. Yes, it could be faulty. Easy enough to test. They are often refereed to as an IMS. Here is a short video that explains how they work.
Thanks Coaldust, the switch that I have mounted on the motor above the starter is what they are calling a magnetic switch.I ordered a new one in case that is where my problem is. Thanks for the video,, it makes more sense now.
Hi Simon,after looking at some pics I took before I removed the starter, I was mistaken. In the pic of the solenoid, that left side post DOES go to the S terminal. The positive battery cable goes to the stud on the starter and that has a jumper wire (2nd pic,, wire with orange end)that attaches to what the manual is calling a circuit breaker. a jumper from there goes to the solenoid switch.My hand (pic 1) is on the wire that goes from the S terminal to that left post of the solenoid switch.
here is a diagram of the wiring of my solenoid switch, starter, alternator, and circuit breaker. Not sure if this could fail and cause my problem or not.Hopefully I named each part correctly. thank again guys
That solenoid is cheap to replace and if it has stuck contacts, your starter will keep trying to engage and kill your battery. If your batteries are not good, they can cause the contacts to fuse because of trying to push current through with low voltage. If batteries are old, change, along with new solenoid and starter for a fresh start. And yes I thought the left side of solenoid connection went to the starter broken S-Terminal. Let us know what happens. Simon
FYI; the case 580C's were built with 3 different starters. You have a Nippondenso. It is a reduction gear starter. Someone has butchered the OEM wiring on your tractor. That solenoid on the block should never have been installed. It was someones idea to by-pass the solenoid in the starter for some reason. The image I'm posting is from the service manual and is specifically for the Nippondenso starter.
That’s awesome you are taking such interest in starting systems and trying to learn. Kudos.
Thanks Coaldust, it is a huge learning curve for me but it feels good to learn and resolve a problem. I will keep you guys posted once i get the starter and new switch installed.
Thanks Simon, I wish I had done a little more homework before removing the starter and breaking the s terminal. So when I get the new switch and starter back , should I leave the old switch in place when I put the starter back in and test everything? I figure if I still get the problem with the new starter installed, I will know for sure it was the switch. If i change them both together, I wont really know which part was faulty? Does that sound reasonable?
Thanks Tinkerer, oh yeah, someone hacked the crap out of the wiring. all the braided covering on the wires are all ripped open with wires going everywhere.
You could consider restoring the OEM wiring configuration and toss that solenoid that is on the block in the garbage. The way it is now may put your rebuilt or new starter at risk or damage. It would be simple restoration. Simply relocating the wires from that cobbled on solenoid to where they belong on the starter.
The other wire spliced into the alternator wire is probably for the tach. Take out the scabbed separate solenoid as your new starter will have it on the unit. Just less possible voltage loss and another set of contacts to give you problems. Good job on the wiring schematic.
Agree with restoring OEM wiring, really simple. From key switch white-orange wire to pushbutton from there white wire through junction block behind dash same white wire goes to neutral safety switch on shuttle to solenoid on starter. Don't know why it was hacked to begin with all parts readily available. It's possible to start that machine with about a foot of wire to jump starter, don't even need the key. If you have access to wiring diagram in repair manual you'll see how simple the system is. Manuals for that machine,(parts, service and owners) can be had under $150 might wanna invest if it's your machine.
Tach is cable driven.
Probably for a volt or ammeter. Or a red light on the dash, for the alternator to function correctly. I usually delete the circuit breaker.
@raypan Where in MA are you. If not too far way I might be able to come help you get pointed in the right direction.
I would love to do that, especially now that I have been tracing wires and finding dead ends everywhere
Thanks Harley, I got a new one delivered yesterday, but I would really like to eliminate it all together.
Thanks Sinky, that seems to be the consensus. Luckily the guy I bought it from gave me the repair manual and the parts manual for the machine.So I do have a good starting point
The is a cable that goes into the back of the dash cluster. Looks like a car speedo cable,,so I am guessing that the tach cable?
I an in near the mass NH border, so a bit of a ride from CT, but I really appreciate the offer edgephoto
I only get that way for work. If you move closer, let me know.
Some Nippon Denso starters similar to that are known to stop working because the contacts in the solenoid on top will arc and turn black. It's a simple job to take the cover off, pull the plunger and spring and sand the copper contacts. I think low batteries contribute to it. They're good starters otherwise.
picking up the starter and alternator tomorrow from the shop. Alt had a lose battery stud so they fixed that and tested it,, good to go,, starter needed an armature so that's all fixed. $150.00 for everything seemed pretty reasonable/ I am going to put the starter in and try it. If it still powers the starter I will put in the new solenoid switch.Even if it works before i replace the solenoid switch, I am going to replace it anyway. I just want to eliminate if it is the stater or the switch. If i do all that and it STILL has the issue,, im lighting it on fire!!!!!!!!! nah,, just venting,,,,I'll keep you all posted and thanks again for all the help,,,,,,,,
You will miss it, trust me. We soon forget the many things that our hoes do for us
Oh I know Swetz, you can't take a hoe for granted!!!
so here is an update guys,,, I installed the alternator, adjusted the belt to about an inch play. Installed the starter and connected all the wires as they were.Put the battery in, connected the postive cable.Then i touched the negative cable to the battery terminal and got the same clicking from the starter. Then I took the solenoid switch out and installed the new one, and wired it back up as before.I touched the negative terminal and not a sound!!!! When I shook the old switch I could here something in there rattling around.So I guess its safe to say the switch was the culprit. I do still have the alt light come on for the first 5-10 minutes of use, with the volt meter on the dash in the yellow, just below the green. After a few minutes it goes out and the needle is dead center in the green.This has been happening for a little while beofre the whole solenoid problem.I tested the battery with backhoe off and got 12.48 and when running im getting 12.5,,so something is weird. I still have to test it when the light goes out to see if that number changes.The alternator was rebuilt months ago by the same electric motor company that did the starter and they fixed the loose positive post last week and re tested it and it was good.Could an older battery not take a charge from the alt? I didnt think it was the battery because it tested 12.4
You should be getting at least 14v from running alt at battery. Belt might be slipping? Too loose?
The starter should not make any "clicking when you connect the cables to it. The solenoid has to be activated to create any activity in the starter. You need to shi# can that cobbled in solenoid and restore the starter wiring back to where it should be.
I am with Tinkerer. Put the wiring back to stock and if things don't work diagnose and repair them. A fully charged battery will read about 12.5 volts with no load on it. Your alternator is not charging. If it starts charging after a while it is probably because your RPM went up enough to excite the field. I have had terrible luck with rebuilders. I have tried several that have great reputations and have always been disappointed. There was one I used for oddball stuff like Lucas, Paris-Rone, Leece-Nevell and some of the other oddballs. About 10 years ago they shut the rebuilding business and just stayed focusing on hydraulic hoses and truck parts. I talk to them about it and they said you can't find parts to fix them. There is only Chinesium junk available and they were tired of doing the same alternator or starter over and over for free.
I made sure the belt was tight when i put the alternator back in. It has a toothed belt on it so maybe that is worn and causing the problem? I would think it would take a v belt.
it did click before i installed the new switch, then it was nice and quiet. I am going to study the wiring diagram and see if i can figure out how to get it back to original. I agree,,, not a fan of rebuilders
If the starter makes a click when you connected the power to it it most likely is continuously drawing current from the battery. IMHO I would suggest that you use a VOM to check if it is.
Thanks Tinkerer, once i put in the new solenoid switch , it did not click at all, I connected the battery and it ran fine,, except for the intermittent alt light going on when i first started..
If you rev the engine up just after you start it, does the light go off? If yes, I would check voltage at the battery at that point. Others on here with the same machine have reported that the alternator light was on upon starting until they gave it rpms.
Seems to be a common theme with Case. Their older skid steers are like that as well.
Hi Swetz,yes, the light does go out after a few minutes and higher RPM's. But there have been occasions where I would be driving and the light would pop on. I will check voltage when the light is off and see what I get.Thanks
Sounds like you may need a battery. I would load test it, as it seems to have a face charge that bleeds off.
Thanks Harley, that's a good possibility, as it is the battery that was in the machine when I bought it, so I have no idea how old it is. No date stamped on it.
I have a cheap Amazon battery tester that works pretty well. I bought it because I was sick of charging a battery and it reads good on a meter and it should work but as soon as you draw on it, it falls flat.
installed a fully charged battery and still got the alt light until the rpms increased, I still have to test it when the light is off,,,,