Well I finally get a chance to post here. It's my first time. Anyways, I'm looking for some information. A friend of mines cousin has an old d8 that we're going to try to get started in a couple weeks. He said it has the cable for the blade running straight over the cab so i'm guessing 1940's model? I haven't seen it yet but he says it is actually in pretty good shape and has had a bucket over the exhaust and an attempt was at least made to keep rain water off, and out of the engine. He said the pony motor turns over (hand crank) but I'm not sure about the main engine. He said the dozer has been sitting there for 40 years but i think he must be exaggerating that. If it's been sitting there for that long I'm sure it would take a lot more time and money to replace parts than they are thinking. I have 4 questions 1) I have no experience at all with pony motors so can anyone tell me about the process (step by step) of starting the engine with the pony motor. Is it true that these engines can take 5-10 minutes of cranking to start? 2) Other than changing all fluids/filters/fuel and probably cleaning out or replacing every fuel line and carburetor on the pony motor what other basic things should be done before trying to start this dozer? 3) Who has started something after sitting for a long period of time, and how long was it sitting, and what did it take to get it started? 4) Can that hand crank on the pony motor break your arm? Sorry for the long post, but any information would be much appreciated.
I also have to say that I am very skeptical about this whole ordeal. I would imagine that if that d8 has really been sitting around that long every clutch on that things is probably siezed, the tracks are probably rusted solid, and none of the roller will probably turn. I can't imagine that any bearings on that tractor are in working condition. But like I said I haven't seen it yet. I know I should have a more positive attitude.
This sounds like a fun project. If this were my machine, I would first attempt to turn the main engine over without the pony motor. The point of doing this is to see if the engine is seized or not. Chances are excellent that after forty years the pistons and cylinder walls are well bonded together by rust or corrosion. Hitting this with the force of the pony motor may just break lots of parts. After that length of time, the rings might also be well rusted into the grooves on the pistons, which won't make for a good running engine, even if it does run. I have started several gas engines that sat outside for ten years or more. They take lots of persuasion just to get them turning over. Before trying to turn them, it is a good idea to shoot some penetrating oil or other lubricant into the cylinders through the spark plug holes. Im not sure, but in that diesel engine you might be able inject lubricant by removing the injectors?? The lubricant can help loosen seized parts and provides lubrication to prevent rapid wear if you do manage to start it. I don't know the engine in that D8, but you should be able to get a socket and a big bar onto the center bolt in the crankshaft pulley. If the engine will turn, you then could try starting it with the pony motor - if it will run.
I have 4 questions; 1) i have no experience at all with pony motors so can anyone tell me about the process (step by step) of starting the engine with the pony motor. Is it true that these engines can take 5-10 minutes of cranking to start? 1a. Do as you listed for maintenance, plus you will want to change the electrical item such as spark plugs, wires and whatnot. 2a. Check the magneto. 3a. Open the fuel valve under the gas tank, make sure the screen and bowl are clean. Use new & clean gas. 4a. Place the tractor in neutral and pull the master clutch in. 5a. Set the main thottle to a bit above idle. 6a. Make sure the hand brake or foot brake is set. 7a. Pull the choke out, make sure fuel is getting into that carb. 8a. Did i mention that you need to clean out the diesel tank and service the lines, primary fuel screen and filters all the way to the injector pump first? 9a. You also need to crack open at least two fuel injector lines right at the injectors. 10a. I'm not sure this old tractor has a diesel hand primer pump, but if it does, use it. 11a. Then set the compression release lever into the release position, and check that trans is in neutral again. 12a. Put crank handle on and with switch off, gently turn the pony over a couple of times to get a little oil up and prime the carb. A little ether can help, but easy does it. 13a. Make sure the pony is set to the compression stroke, then switch the ignition on and firmly pull the crank handle. 14a. Make sure you have a good stance, since it is possible that the crank may continue on around and knock you on your ass. 15a. Be careful and make sure the crank handle does not stick onto the crank. 16a. You may have to crank on the pony several times, but after a couple of pulls, set the choke back in a bit or all the way. 17a. If the pony doesn't start right away, shut the switch off and check for spark and fuel, also see if the plugs are fouled. 18a. If the pony starts, let it warm up. 19a. You can thottle some of the pony's down, not sure you can with yours, but adjust the choke as needed to settle the pony into a steady roar. 20a. Now, thottle up, and engage the pinion gear lever, then pull on the pony motor clutch till the big engine is turning over. It will probably jerk your hand around a little. That's all right. 21a. Snap the pony clutch in and let the diesel turn over for a bit untill oil pressure comes up, this is very important. 22a. If it try's to start right away that's fine, let it cough a bit and check your injector lines for squirting fuel. 23a. Ok, you got fuel and the engine is putting out some smoke and coughing, time to let the compression lever go back to full compression mode. 24a. Thottle the diesel up a bit more if need be, tighten all loose injector lines. 25a. The hand clutch on the pony should kick itself out once the big motor is running. 26a. Now shut the gas valve off firmly and let the pony die running out of fuel. 27a. Shut off the ignition switch. 28a. Watch the fuel and oil pressure guages to make sure both are in the green. 29a. Put crank handle away in tool box, you will need it again. 30a. Let the diesel idle for a good while as you watch the exhaust and check guages. You will also listen for funny noises and watch to see that some items do not fly off from where they are supposed to be. 2) other than changing all fluids/filters/fuel and probably cleaning out or replacing every fuel line and carburetor on the pony motor what other basic things should be done before trying to start this dozer? 2a. See items 1-13 above. 3) who has started something after sitting for a long period of time, and how long was it sitting, and what did it take to get it started? 3a. It varies by the length of time sitting, weather, and many other variables such as type and model of engine. I've spent half a day trying to start a hand crank 844 buda that sat for four years on a crusher. Have also spent an entire day trying to start a d346 cat in a 651b scraper that just sat overnight in cold weather. You never know, but maintenance and preparation are key elements. 4) can that hand crank on the pony motor break your arm? 4a. It certainly can, and it will bash your skull in as well if you let it. You have to keep control of the crank, make sure it fits loose on the shaft. Once you have levered the engine over, remember to pull the crank up or out slightly so that it disengages. Do not try to roll the engine over like you might a lawnmower! The pony needs to be reset to top o' compression after every pull. Carefully! You can tug on a crank handle till you have blisters or have dislocated your shoulder. Properly prepping the pony will save you much gnashing of teeth and valuable swear words. Good luck, and let us know how you come out!
Wow, thanks for all that fast info. Yeah i was planning on pulling the injectors and spraying WD40 (would something else be better) in there and trying to turn the engine over. How do you know when the pony motor is on the top of compression? And one more thing. Does anyone have a picture of all the controls with labels on them. I know those old cats have lots of levers but I wouldn't know what half of them are for. Once I get out there I can start getting familiar with everything, but that won't be for a couple weeks.
Thank you Joe for typing that all out............I did not have the courage.LOL. You are a master of detail,far better than I am. I would not be surprised that with fuels that it might run.Almost all of the pony motors that sit for a while need the gas lines cleaned,the sediment bowl will be plugged etc. The main tank should really be drained and the system refreshed as you said. Hope they let us know how it went.W/pics. Ron G
If the main engine is free you can release the compression and turn the fan while pushing on the belt to see if it will turn. If the dozer is still on it, the cable controll clutch is probably stuck and will probably try to raise if you can get it turning over, might unhook the cable til you get her going. The magneto was always a problem, if you don't have spark there is a set of points under the cap you can file. Good luck, Surfer covered about everything, hope to see some pics with smoke coming out the stack
Pulling it too Start? I really don't know what I'm talking about here so I'm just Asking. :beatsme What about chaining the blade up and pulling the thing AFTER you figured out the motor will turn? A friend of mine just parks his 17A on a hill with the blade up and roll starts it instead of screwing with the pony motor. Just a thought from someone who shouldn't be thinking.
A few more points when bringing an old Cat back from the dead... I got my DW10 to start in 2007, after it had been sitting since around 1990. I changed the engine oil, and the filters in the diesel. Cleaned out the filter tower as it had rust and general crud in the bottom, I don't think it had regular maintenance for some time. One of the guys on the Cat board advised pulling the inspection covers off the oil pan, and having a look inside. This saved my bacon, as the suction bell that draws oil for the engine was cracked and frozen in a ball of ice. Something to consider if you are going to try this in cold weather, after 40 years there will be some water in the crankcase, from condensation if nothing else. Bare minimum, loosen the drain plug on both engines and drain off any water you find there, same thing for the clutch compartment and steering clutch compartments, the plugs are on the underside of the tractor. Another good idea is to take the side cover off of the injection pump to make sure the rack hasn't frozen. Penetrating oil on any linkages you can get to, grease any fittings you can get to, lube points will be dry after that much time. http://www.antiquecaterpillar.net/ACF_v2/ http://www.acmocbb.org/ACMOC_BB/ If I think of anything else, I'll add it later, The 2 links I posted are for the 2 antique Caterpillar boards, it would be worth it to register and ask you question there too, those guys have a wealth of good info and a lot of technical literature to help you out! Be sure to take pictures, we love pics of old Cats with trees growing out of them...be sure to get some pics before you disturb anything! Best of luck to you, Alan627b
1 more thing...once you have everything ready to try, you can speed up the priming process by pressurizing the diesel tank with air, to help push the fuel up to the injector pump. Get a spare fuel cap, drill a hole in it, and screw an air fitting into it, or, cut an old inner tube, and clamp it around the filler neck with a big hose clamp, and use the stem to pressurize it that way. If you are "in the field" borrow somebody's air tank or air bubble. Worked like a charm. Alan627b
stuck detroit engine I just bought a replacement engine and was surposed to be in running condition. The engine appeared to have been rebuilt and put in storage, it is stuck and will not turn with stater or front pulley bolt. I did remove the starter and did get it to turn with a bar on the flywheel. I pulled the injectors and sprayed PB Blaster and WD40 into the cylinders. Im hoping when I try tommorrow, it will turn with the starter. any suggestions, on what to spray in the cylinders?
KOO swears by carb cleaner.........lots of concoctions, diesel, ATF, MMO........ if you have it budgin you must be close...........
care fullnot to put to much fluid in the diiesel engine on top of the pistons you can bend a rod if you dump alot wd 40 in there don't know how much you plan to use but be care ful because liquids are none compressible
ive heard of old farmers putting a 50/50 mix of diesel and paint thinner into a siezed moter. Anyone else ever heard of this?
For something like this I would use "Liquid Wrench" penetrating oil instead of the WD 40. Used to know an old mehcanic when I was a kid taught me about Liquid Wrench (made by Gunk). Terriffic stuff.
stuck engine solutions Great idea, I had forgot, that one. I was told to fill the cylinders with Marvel Mystery oil and let it set for a few days. I will let you know in a few days
Starting a pony motor!!!! #1 pony motor is 6volt. #2 the mag will need points & condenser #3 carb will be gumed up #4 converson kit w/adaper plate & starter is only $900.00 (takes a special nose on the starter for these change overs) #5 SO pull start the thing in reverse & let the blade drag..
Pour the liquid wrench in the cylinders and let it set over night. It is amazing stuff. But, on the other hand I started an old farm tractor that sat from 1983 to 2003 and a car with a V8 that sat from 1978 to 2003 and they came to life like Rip Van Winkle. Nothing froze up on either one. They were stored under roof but had no climate control.
Just wanted to give an update on our progress. I took some pics but I lost the cord needed to put the pictures from my digital camera onto the computer. The owner said it's a 1935 model but I don't know if they even made D8s in 1935. It appears to be in fairly good shape especially for its age. He said it was parked in 1960, but both front idlers are solid and I'm not sure if those were even available in 1960. Anyways both engines are free and almost all the grease fittings took grease which was surprising. He also said he had the magneto rebuilt 2 years ago. So far we have changed the oil in the pony, put in new spark plugs, and cleaned the fuel tank and line to the the carburetor on the pony motor. No spark but we will have new plug wires to put on the next time we go out there. We also flushed the diesel tank and I was surprised that the diesel drained freely from the lines and we even started a fire with it and it burned good. The only thing we've found siezed so far is the throwout bearing on the main clutch. I sprayed it with penetrating oil and will try to break it free the next time we go out there.
Find the bloody cord. WE WANT PICS!!!!! Sounds like you are making progress. Lets hope everything goes good and the ol' girl starts up and goes easy for you. Keep us advised of the progress
Diesels are sealed tighter than a gas motor, Ive seen them set 30 years and go to work in a few days. I ran an old 7 cable blade that had set a while had to be stared in gear with a push tractor then the hand clutch wouldnt disengage I had to doze for about an hour to get it to un stuck My neighbor that had alot of equipment had an AC260 straigh shift scraper ist in the weeds ever since I was a kid. Ih had a half load of dirt in it and a pine tree about 12 inches in diameter in it they sawed the tree and the next day I met it on the road going to a job.
If you have a memory card in you camera, and a slot in your computer(card reader) then you dont need the cord, just slide the card in and away you go....Cant wait to see these pics!!!
starting old D-8 I operated a D-8 with a pony eng. in the Army in 1958 for three years, that's a long time ago for sure. About the pony eng, the crank will not jerk your arm off or hurt you in anyway. The bottom of the shaft that connects the crank with the pony is cut at an angle to prevent this and to insert the crank into the pony there is a spring in the pony that you have to push down with the crank and will eject the crank when the pony starts so it won't spin. Kick back is a non-issue. About the crank, likely it's been "lost" long ago as it is a loose item, but if it is still around the handle part should have a rotating sleeve on it. If no sleeve you can blister your palm in the cranking process, only a leather glove will protect your hand if no sleeve. A loose fitting pipe/pvc in place of won't work as you'll pull it off in the cranking process and give it up. If you decide to start by pushing backward i.e. "blade to blade" be sure the D-8 is in reverse or if not than when the engine turns over or starts it will actually run in reverse and blow the oil out of the oil bath airbreather/cleaner onto the operator and seat. note: the in-take air is coming in from the exhaust pipe. You'll only make this mistake once in your life and never forget it. Sound like it going to be a fun project.
Lots of good advice here....good to hear the motors are not froze. Yes, they made a D8 in 1935. That would be an early 1Hxxxx model produced from 1935 to 1941 and uses the D13000 engine. Also would have the old slide bar shift for the transmission. Good luck with the old gal.
Old D8 The old operators called the sliding bar D8's Iron jawed
I forgot all about this thread. I have some pics now but can't seem to attach them. When I try to upload the pics it says I am missing a security link. Does anyone know how to fix this problem.
little words of wisdom from an old coot.............dont disregard the kickback from the crank, and thats experience talkn....bah ha ha
Old D8 Pony motor My Dad always said NEVER wrap your thumb around the crank handle, that way if it kicks back and it will kick back sometimes it will just jerk the crank out of your hand.
well did you ever get it started???
crank handles A mate in Aust used to wrap his fiingers around the handle when starting his W6 tractor , it kicked back broke his arm and now spo rts a nice scar to boot , I understand it is th elast thing He ever hand cranked again ointhead
Haven't gotten it started yet. We stopped trying last year, but the owner cleaned the carburetor on the pony and hasn't put it back in yet. We'll try again soon.
sorry wrong page
Kerosene works good to free up stuck things.
I would be interested in what happened or is happening with this 1H model D8.