i am thinking about going from s205 to a s650 but dont know nothing about the doosan. pros and cons? thanks
well i got the new s650 comming tommorow. from what i have ben reading the doosan dont like the cold. guess ill find out
They constantly derate in the cold, the 2.4L burns more fuel than the 3.3L Kubota to get the same hp and they DO NOT like dirty fuel.
hope someone will figure out how to get around the derate, got me thinking that i messed up by tradeing
The local Bobcat salesman said that because they do not use a DPF that the Doosan engines must run at a higher exhaust temperature to burn off the particulate matter and the engine derates until the exhaust temps get hot enough. He said this has caused some of his customer's machines to run derated for up to an hour during snow events because the engines just don't see much engine load pushing snow. His customers hate the "cold" word that pops up on the screen and beeps at them.
i only use it to feed cattle with, for about 40 minutes at daylight so it might be a problem. need to come up efi live for doosan lol
I've heard the same about issues in cold locally but don't know the machines well enough personally. Mostly farmers with complaints, they jump in and run for a couple minutes and shut them down. All day.
from what i've seen so far with the EFI engines that bobcat is using, the doosan in the mid frame machine has been more trouble free than the kubota that was used in the large frame machines. the kubota has DPF on it, and operators like to override the regen. eventually leads to a plugged DPF, and 75% derate, neccesitateing a service regen. biggest issues are in extreme cold weather running #2 fuel. all the EFI engines use a 2 micron fuel filter that doesnt "like" cold fuel. using a 50/50 mix of #2 & #1 fuel helps the fuel flow through the filter. bobcat has added a fuel warming curcuit to bypass the fuel cooler in cold weather on the doosan engines. :drinkup
thanks crewchief you make it sound better. ill find out in the morning got it today. ill let you know its 16 here now dont know if thats cold enough or not
We took delivery of our new doosan equipped s650 in mid November. I wish we would have never traded our last machine in. To start, we are a snow removal company and leave our 2 machines outside and plugged in. We have only had our Kubota equipped machines gel up once in severe cold (-25 or lower). Our doosan has been in the shop more than we have run it this winter. We started running 50/50 with schaeffers additive following the instructions of the dealer and it still wouldn't run under 15 degrees. After 4 new fuel filters, 3 trips to dealer, and 2 complete tank and fuel line clearances we have been told we must run straight #1 fuel. What a pain in the ass! Nobody sells it at a pump and we have no way to keep a tank on location. I am totally fed up with this doosan B.S. It starts fine and runs for 10-15 mins after warm up then it will die. That is how it has occurred every time. Barely runs long enough to get it on the trailer. Machine only has 70 hours today and at least 10 of that has been trying to figure the problems out! Also when you start the machine it takes a long time before you can even throttle up the machine due to the cold weather protection and this occurred above 40 degrees and lasted almost 5 mins even at that temp.
We have been life long bobcat customers but this issue has me out testing other brands. As much as I like the machine it has proven to be unreliable when we need it the most. Bobcat has really disappointed a very loyal customer with this one!
By the way since the last tank drain we have used strictly #1 fuel and it has only happened once. That was the day after getting it back. The service tech came and looked it over and replaced another almost $100 fuel filter and it has been ok.
oh boy something must be wrong, if they was all like that they would be out of business . i would call it a lemon and want another machine to try
The fact that it starts fine then acts up when used the dealer thinks it's not being caused by gelling but can't explain what's going on. The codes have not indicated it was a gelling issue. He thinks it's possibly related to the injectors.
This is actually fairly common with the new Doosan engines according to the Bobcat salesman I used to sell with. As I said earlier, the new engines do not have a DPF and the engine exhaust must be hot to burn the ash since there is no filter to catch it. This is a problem in cold weather and it causes the engine to derate so it doesn't produce as much particulate matter (ash). They also use a very fine fuel filter (2 micron) and highly recommend filtered fuel not out of plastic cans or anything that might be slightly dirty. He has customers complaining of derated engines for up to an hour here in Wisconsin.
i got it figured out , its just to dam cold up thier lol. its was 9 degrees here in mo.this morring and it [doosan] was ready to go in less than 2 minutes. guess i should be looking for filter for my fuel barrel
That would probably be good. Very small fuel filter tolerance.
Have you tried blocking 1/3 to 1/2 of the radiator off with cardboard or something similar? We have been doing it for years for snow removal; keeps engine at operating temp and the cab warm. Terry
I'd take a DPF over the Doosan solution anyday from what I've heard. Been dealing with DPF's on stuff for awhile and while it sounds like a bad idea, they haven't been. Early ones were, but they're pretty refined now. Bad operators can still cause issues as you elude to. Why are the operators ignoring the regen? Are some brands still unable to accomplish a working regen? The Cat's using the 3.3 Kubota with DPF have a few levels, first they will flash that it needs to regen and you simply run the machine above half throttle while continuing to work, or let it idle and walk away, after a short time period it will do it on its own. The next stage is a parked regen, if you continually ignore the warnings leading up to it. If you keep ignoring it, eventually you will get shut down and need a service tech to do one. It takes a lot to get to that stage though. Ours is over 400hrs now with operators that would not understand the regen process at all. None have asked about the light either so either its asking and they just ignore it, or it hasn't needed to yet. I find it pretty unlikely in 400hrs it hasn't needed to. Other's and myself do run it from time to time and haven't noticed regen warnings either. It does not have a way to see the number of regens in the display. Of course you also always have the passive regens where you work it hard enough to create enough heat for a regen without any assistance. We don't work the machine very hard but it sits in solid dust, so it does make some heat from time to time. The DPF is not the big mean guy everyone seems to make it out to be. Never had any fuel issues on our Kubota equipped machine either, we avoid blending #1 until sub zero temps. Additives put in by supplier keep issues away until then.
no regen on doosan or 2500.00 fix. i dont know how long dpf last but it can be expensive. it will happen
Filter clean is about $300 at the local Cat dealer when the DPF is full which is about 4000hrs with normal operation- meaning running the machine over half throttle and not ignoring a regen alert if one does pop up.
The issue we have with our doosan s650 is when we took delivery in November the salesman said to run a 50/50 mix. We ended up having it gel almost instantly once it got remotely cold due to the 2 micron filter. They changed the filter and it happened again after about 15 minutes of use above 10 degrees. Really noticed a power loss also, anytime working the boom or tilt at full throttle it would die down significantly. Now after I think 4 filters and 3 shop visits we have stopped the gelling every use by running straight #1 fuel but still have a slow gutless pig. We have been told that it's pro an injector because anytime it gels it will dry fire and take out an injector. Not good to hear as often as we had gelling so far. I am to the point I plan on getting out of this machine asap, I can not count on this when trying to run a business!. Other than that it's very nice and comfortable.
Its a serviceable part just like nearly every non-automotive DPF. Cleaning for big trucks is $200-300 and doesn't take too long. There are quite a few DPF cleaning machines out there, I have one 10 minutes down the road. Some companies are just doing an exchange instead of cleaning, on the Deere 8R tractors its $700 exchange. Most DPF's i've seen on ag and smaller off road equipment are rated to go 4,000-5,000hrs between services with normal operation which means not ignoring regens, and not letting it sit around idling for hours on end. So you have a few hundred dollars and less than a day worth of downtime, or constant downtime everyday waiting for a Doosan to warm up? Im not trying to start a pissing match, there's advantages to every system.
i didnt think a dpf could be taken out and put back in for that price with the price of thier labor and that book price[hours]. with my luck it would have to be replaced instead of cleaned lol [ive never had it done]. negetive 10 this morning going to see what the doosan does. reedo i bet you and bobcat have it out dont ya? did they tell you that you had to run #1 and now the injectors could be messed up, i would want warrenty or another machine have a lawyer call them.
The difference between Reado and Durallymax's cold weather starting probably is due to Wi no bio diesel and Mn has 3% even in cold weather. Second time this winter I have had my New Holland refuse to run because of it. Am close enough to the border that I am going to start getting mine in Wi.
That's a good point. I did not know WI did not have the same blend. In response to warbird, we have a pretty good relationship with our dealer as we have dealt with them for many years. They have been great and understand our frustration. We too understand this is not something they have much control on but would have liked to have been warned ahead of time to stick with the prior power train until these issues were solved. At the same time I und that is how they stay in business.
negetive 10 and cold sign was gone in 2 min. and 20sec ready to go. i let it warm up a little longer anyway. now if i can get it to run 7mph ill be pleased
Bad operators can still cause issues as you elude to. Why are the operators ignoring the regen? we seem to have 3 kinds of operators, a) one leaves the machine idling all day, b) one that runs hard for 5 minutes, and then shuts down for a while c) one that runs and uses his machine all day. a&b operators are the "problem" ones, exhaust temps never get high enough. for many years bobcat has told operators when the machine beeps and throws a code, theres somethig wrong, stop and investigate the problem. operators 1st instinct is to shut the machine down immediately or they hear the beep, and see the override switch lit up, so they press it, defeating the regen. we (the service dept, especially field mechanics) have started to educate the operators, giving them the "heads up" about the passive regeneration, how/when/why it happens. that alone has cut down on service calls and phone calls. we printed up a couple pages of info on DPF/regen to give to our customers, seems sales never told them anything when they dropped the machine off to them. shocking i know........:cussing :drinkup
Yes we are fortunate to not have a biodiesel mandate. You can request it, but I sure wouldn't. It was in a lot of our fuel for awhile when they were pushing it hard, fortunately they've backed off. That stuff will make a mess out of any fuel system.
I am not one that has blatant disregard for the environment, and I don't want to start an argument, but dang this TIER IV emission stuff has cost the country a lot of money. I can't help but think that consumer demand for fuel efficiency AND reliability wouldn't have landed us in the same place at a much lower cost. Just my 2 cents worth, and not trying to start a political argument.
For those of you who have had the new doosan engine now for a while, how has it been working out? Looking for feedback .... Good/Bad - Pros/Cons. Cold weather/Warm Weather
We got rid of it and went with a Cat. Had it November through March. They had it in the shop more than we had it out last winter. If it was under 15 degrees here in Minnesota it would start, run 10 minutes then die till fuel filter was replaced. Then it would do it right away again. They wanted us to run straight number 1 fuel which was too much of a headache for our situation. Additionally it seemed to have noticeably less power when running it. We only got about 50 hours of use out of it but it caused us more headache than it was worth. Otherwise it was a nice machine but the D series Cat is even better yet and way more comfortable. Plus it has a kubota engine.
I have been happy with mine (S630 picked up in June), only have around 200 hours on it in warm weather. Fuel consumption is better than I was expecting, around 2/gal per hour running the mower at 1900rpm and around 1.5 doing most other stuff at around 2K. Haven't done a lot of hard pushing long enough to tell what it burns there. More vibration than the old Kubotas imo, all the service stuff is pretty accessible. The rest of the machine is very familiar from other models I've worked with so I like that as well.
They've been out awhile and I've talked to quite a few of my old Bobcat customers. Consistent feedback has been poor cold weather performance, higher fuel consumption out of the 2.4L Doosan engine compared to their older 3.3L Kubota engines and poorer hydraulic aux performance with high flow attachments, probably due to the huge decrease in engine displacement. Just spoke last week with a former customer with one of the new tier IV final 3.4L Doosan engines that replaced the 3.8L Kubota in their large chassis and he said there is a noticeable drop in performance when multitasking his loader such as curl and lift when driving. He feels it just bleeds off power faster.
Concerning the poor cold weather performance. Bobcat guy I talked to said they did have issues but said it was because the filters would get clogged up with the gelled up fuel and would be the same on any other tier4 engine because the filters are made finer to filter the fuel more than the old style due to the tier4 engines not liking dirty fuel. He mentioned that they now put a 'aux fuel heater' on to help warm the fuel and stop gelling problems before it reaches the filter. Not sure how true that statement is.?? So is the filter really the cause of the problem with poor performance or is this just a separate problem?? Was there any changes to the engine from 2014 to 2015 that maybe solved the cold weather issues??
His statements are true for the most part. Our machine was a 2015 s650. It was equipped with the aux fuel heater he spoke of. We had talked to many other guys that had traded up last fall in our area to bobcats with the doosan and they all had the same exact problem. We were told if it was going to be colder than 15 degrees we must run straight #1 diesel fuel to keep that from freezing up. That is when we noticed a serious lack of power. As far as the fuel filters go bobcat runs a 2 micron filter while the other companies are not running a filter that fine. I spent a lot of time doing research and talking with owners of all brands with the tier 4 final engines and nobody except the bobcat owners had this problem. I spoke with the fuel companies in the area since bobcat was putting the blame solely on them for producing crappy fuel these new machines had trouble with. The fuel companies said they were getting a lot of reports of this problem from bobcat owners. They had no complaints out of the ordinary from any other brands owners, just bobcat. We had never had a reason to look at another brand of skid loader until this. After getting out and using other machines I was sure glad I did as the new Cat has proven to be a much nicer, more comfortable, and a very easy to maintain machine.
Reedo, What Cat machine did you end up going with to replace your S650? And what pusher & size are you using on it?
We went with a 262d. We run a 8' and a 9' Kage Snowfire. We have had them for about 4 seasons and they have proven to be excellent.
Our Company currently has three units with 1 S570 and 2 of S590. These units are critical to have clean fuel, low sulphur and must have the 2 micron fuel filter. The only unit that has not given fuel issues is the S570 which is always inside a shop overnight and has approximately 1800 hours. The two S590 are around 3800 to 4200 hours and have a cost of approximately $17,000.00 Canadian to replace the complete fuel system. a new engine is $23,000.00. We have replaced one fuel system and having to use either to start the 2nd unit now (low fuel rail pressure). All Bobcat T and S series will have the Doosan engine from now on. Make your own decisions with what has been posted in this forum.
well I hate to say it [lol] but I already ben through 2 fuel filters[52.00 each] in a month on 2015 s650 with 300 hours on it and I'm sick of seeing the cold sing flash and it wont even run 6 mph. Doosan lost my business. just ordered a 2016 cat 262d will be here in February. should of listened to durallymax going back to Kubota engine. hope cat fuel filter works
We are on our third unit for repairs now. Fuel system requires injector replacement (all 4) that are brand new injectors (have replaced injectors on all three units now directly from the supplier and not through Bobcat for a $400 savings per injector). Each injector is around $800 Canadian. We also installed a 2 micron fuel filter before the fuel enters the high pressure pump. Each unit had issues at the 3000 to 4000 hour mark and were extremely hard on fuel filters (sometimes 2-3 between 250 hours). Definitely not the Bobcat brand that we have owned for years. The first unit had issues at 2600 hours but was repaired under warranty from Bobcat but failed again at 3800 hours. Just a little more info for the current owners with Doosan Tier 4 engines.
I have been reading on this forum about the Doosan tier 4 engines .Seems to me that everything points to fuel filters . Is it possible to install or find a fuel filter that has less microns to allow the fuel to flow better or is this going to screw up with the injectors . This is a concern to me because we rent these machines out . We just purchased a 2015 s450 Bobcat . Now reading all these posts the Doosan sounds like a better motor than a Perkins . Your thoughts
We run a small rental yard in Central Ohio. We had three bobcats S160, S175 & S185. NO Problems at all. One belt, regular oil changes, batteries (4 yrs), a few fuel filters and tires. These machines were tough and ran like tops. Last December I looked to replace them. I was real close to buying a T550 and an S550 open cabs with the Doosan engines. I started reading about these same type issues with the Doosan. I spoke with another rental store owner and he told me they have had issues with the fuel filters. The cold starts and people not allowing the larger units to regen the DPF. He stated that he was leasing his bobcats for three years, this was the same length as the warranty on the engine. He would not buy them. He found out about a lease program that they really were not pushing locally. $350/month no money down on a S590 cab, heat & air. I was set to buy a leftover 2015 T590 with a Kubota and lease a S590. I filled out the credit app and was ready to go. My wife suggested that I wait until the new year and business picked back up to start the lease. I will most likely not be leasing one of these units now. I did buy the T590 with the Kubota and so far am very happy with it. According to my Bobcat Rep, the Doosan engines run a high pressure common rail. He claims that Doosan gets this technology from someone else that knows what they are doing. I also pressed him about the 2.4 liter engine being available in different machines with 49,61,66 & 74 horsepower. He basically said that they are all turbos and Bobcat gets them from Doosan with the horsepower set up. So basically they are computer tuned to the different horsepower. He said they don't feel anyone will come out with a programmer b/c they would have to crack their code. There is a $3000 difference in the S530 to S550 and the same difference in S570 to S590. The S150 to S160 was ten hp gain from turbocharger as well as the S175 to S185. Larger displacement in the S205 engine. Last time we spoke about mini excavators, my rep told me Bobcat was still running Kubota engines in thoses. FYI As far as new fuel filters with low microns allowing more fuel to flow, I would not think this is possible. Diesel fuel is a hydrocarbon chain. Not sure of the exact size of the hydrocarbon chains but they are larger than gasoline. Making a finer filter almost stops the flow completely. This problem is worse in cold weather due to the fact the chains cling to each other (gel).
I just heard that Cat's new smaller sized loaders are not running DPF's anymore... I am not sure what that means but many of you think the cold issues are related to not having a DPF. I don't think that's the case as so many are starting to go away from DPF's. No one would make the change to a worse technology unless it had benefits. I know Cat's run Kubota engines now, so it might just be a matter of time until everything is without a DPF. On a side note, I have heard they have a new line that runs hot fuel to the front of the filter in the new Bobcat's, has anyone else heard if that's helping?
How is the extra fuel (that circulates up to the filter) gonna get hot if they can't keep it running ?
just replaced another fuel filter. I have a 10 micron on my fuel tank. I wish i new away to make sure its clean coming from my tank but everything else runs fine. we had two days of 0 degree weather and I went too 2 bobcat dealers and both were sold out of filters so they overnighted me 2.[so its not just my bobcat] that's 4 filters in 2 months. I got around a month to go before a cat 262d shows up I hope its not the same thing, wonder what micron filter is on a cat? wish I new of a better filter for my fuel tank?
the neighbors have a dooshan and once they installed the elaborate fuel recirculation system on it i hear they didn't have any problems. still the wait time to get going though. we got the last of the classic old school loud vibrating kubotas so no problems there.
Does anyone know if Bobcat has started to use these fuel recirculation systems on the newer machines ? And at time was it done
Not that I'm aware of. Former customer just traded his in for another brand 1 1/2 winters worth of trouble was too much hassle.
the fix
Nice! I demo'd one of those and an S630 (I wanted radial lift) and wanted the buy the 246D (same as the 262 only radial lift) becaise I liked the Cat better by my dealer was a douche and kept dropping the ball so I ended up with the Bobcat machine and haven't had any issue but I live in SC. Only has about 250 hours so far.
Hmm I need to edit that post but can't. Damn phone.
I cant begin to say how much better I like the cat, only used it one day. lol but I went ahead and bought 2 fuel filters, 2 water seperater filters [extra] for 67.00 were bobcat is 53.00 for one junk filter. the cat dealer was here for 3 hours apr. he went through everything with me, even lifted the cab and called me today to see how everything went. good service. I still cant do all the electronic things with it, but ill learn lol
Warbird just to update so far all has been great with the 262d we got last March. We made it through the winter without one problem at all. So far besides regular maintenance and services we have had to replace the heated seat switch, which was an updated part. We also experienced a leak in the air ride seat, it still worked but lost pressure faster than it should have. They replaced all parts involved and has been great since.
thanks for update reedo. like I said before really happy with it. the controls are a lot more responsive than bobcat also. they shouldn't be able to sale a skid steer without ride control
Experiencing similar fuel filter problems here in Massachusetts. But it doesn't seem to be the cold, we can't run our machine with the snowblower even as warm as 30 degrees. Fuel system can't keep up with the demand and constantly needs fuel filters to get through a storm. My problem is I need the all wheel steer during the construction season, otherwise I'd never buy a Bobcat again.
hope its not injector problem bobcat excuse was bad fuel. mine was like that at 30 degrees also just gets worse at colder temp, summer time didn't have no problems with fuel. it cost me a year worth of payments on bobcat with less than 300 hours on it and 11000.00 loss on trade in. right at 600.00 worth of fuel filters. I do have one fuel filter and oil filter [new] I would like to sale 45.00 shipped. like you ill never own a bobcat again. [ Doosan]
Warbird does Cat make a switch for the pattern changer on their machines or is it just left joystick operates machine and right joystick operates loader/bucket. And as far as fuel useage what are you getting in hours on a tank of fuel?
I don't think they make a switch for the pattern changer, or mine dosent have it. dealer said they have them with foot controls, I don't know about switch. never checked fuel by hours, I know you can do it with the display but I don't know how yet lol. a tank will last longer than bobcat did and it holds less fuel. I do same work every day.
Cat offers a pattern changer for their controls, it's an additional option. If you don't want they switch, the dealer can set the controls to the pattern you prefer. You do have to hit the switch every time you start it, but it's not a big deal at all since it's right by the park and key. Our 262D and the 262C2 it replaced both had them and you just get used to it, but the initial idea of another switch is off-putting to some people. Nice to have though, I'd always get one with it if you have multiple people that will use it. They do offer hand/foot controls now, but they are also electric and there is no pattern changer for them. According to Visionlink our 262Ds average fuel use is 1.1gph and the average for the territory is 1.2gph.
Just looked at my display, over the last 80 gallons it's averaged at 1.2 gal/hr according to the computer. I have never done the math. It's a 2015 S630 BC. I rarely run it full throttle, normally around 2K rpm, most of that work was clearing and grading with a little mowing and harley raking.