I think we chatted on this some time back. My hand is sort of being forced now due to people loving me so much, they want to put homes by me, in the middle of BFE! Seeing red is an understatement. I have always planned to cut a pond on my own place. Built plenty for others but nearing time to do my own. All I really care about is getting that dirt! Because I want privacy berms built everywhere. The estimated amount of dirt I need is 4K yds. I will be doing much work with my 322 hoe and will be getting my D7 back online. However, The hangup I have always had is moving that dirt and my brain hovers around 'efficiency'. I don't like moving it twice. However, I might have to eat it here, just not sure. Regarding scrapers, I have considered buying an 8 wheel pull tractor and try to find a pan, but pans are NOT cheap! IMO, over priced as used in my area. I have watched for elevating scrapers here for many yrs. Nearly bought a 633 which would have be awesome, but didn't work out. I think where my frustration is, is paying for trucking support here knowing I am just giving money away rather than 'investing' into equipment I could really use. But I am not sure if tractor/pan config could really drop down in the ground 10ft and still power out of the hole? I mean, if I resort to loading a pan with the hoe or having to push it with the dozer, am I running efficient? I do plan to strip back and properly place topsoils. I want vegetation on all this stuff, so that will take extra time. But I started working numbers towards a pair of tandem dump trucks, and though I have not hired them by the hour in a LONG time, if I can get a decent rate, maybe it is for the best? My thought was that I could pretty much dig my pond as needed, mostly by myself, and use the dozer to move material out of my way. Once that operation is mostly done, I could try to configure a more optimal loading arrangement of the material into trucks. Like climbing the pile and setting myself up for efficient loading so my focus is solely on those trucks. I might ask you guys about tandems running offroad, real capacity, traction, etc? This dirt is hard unless wet. We have run lowboys at 100K on it without issue, but not 100 cycles! I think some of our locals can run 17T on their trucks but running offroad, is that it? Do you let them tell you? If I load this way, the material is already broke free so it should load out very fast. My bucket is about 2.2yd and if I am pushing, I could get up to 3 buckets/min but my estimates are based on 5yd/min loading. I guess as much as I really want and need a scraper, I also need to make a plan forward on this that makes sense. These berms will be sharp and aggressive with 2:1 slopes so really just dropping piles from a truck might be more ideal? My thought was I could call them in for a day to move the sub (fill) material and then allow me to work it with my equipment for a time, then return later to move some top soil for me to spread over the berms. This project has been 'grading' on me for over a decade. Never enough time or money to do it but I simply cannot even plant a single tree until this gets done. I know it's a matter of time before more housing BS starts. I HATE neighbors and I am 30mi from the center of the mess. Figures they need to build RIGHT next to me! My luck continues.
I understand your frustration with the situation. Balancing efficiency and budget for your pond project is challenging. Considering a mix of trucking and your own equipment is a practical approach. Consult local experts for advice on truck capacities and off-road performance. Your dedication to the project is evident; keep researching and seeking help when needed. Best of luck with your pond project!
Have you considered pulling a scraper with the D7? That would be my vote. Not as fast as a self propelled scraper or wheel tractor but can also get in and out of tough spots and load itself in most any conditions.
Mostly talked myself out of that, and other pros did too as it would be very slow and wear out the dozer UC. Just seems like rubber is needed. I had also looked at a Challenger tracked tractor but missed it. Priced pretty right but who knows what issues it had. Farmers never sell for no reason. I am also seeing more of the ADT trucks mated to pans. All the vids I see though, they certainly can't self load. Not sure what the advantage is other than 6 wheels moving so probably can move the material better without getting stuck. I was trying to run numbers for truck cycle times. I really don't want them backing up. Trying to study all that.
If a scraper of some flavor isn’t in the cards I next best thing would be an ADT. Tandem road trucks would be my last choice but may be your only option.
Main thing on ADTs is around here, most just don't run them. I hardly ever see them on jobs unless really big ones. And for such a small relative job I have here, I don't know how that would pencil out. I will admit though, a pan on that dozer could really improve my life on other pond jobs because it could do digging that most just could not, plus I could use it to load dirt into with the hoe and move it. Sort of a swiss army knife on the job. But I have studied my hydraulics and will take a massive effort just to add extra ports. Amazing CAT didn't think ahead to even offer me a pipe plug of pressure oil. Basically the price of a pan is just stupid money around here! Even the old ones. $30K! NO!
A scraper is your best bet for a 1 man show. Dig, haul, spread, and pack all in 1 machine. I sold a deere 860a last year for $5,000 that would have been just what you needed. I know of some TS14 scrapers that were sold for scrap, still operating. As far as a tractor and pan pulling out of a hole 10' deep, no problem. I think it would pull out of a hole that a elevator or pan scraper would find difficult.
Maybe you should rent an off road dump truck for a month or two. I personally would not wear out my dozer pulling dirt.
Yeah, with practically a new UC under it. But trying to keep ideas open here. Surprised there is not much support or hiring in on-road trucks. I just saw a vid of D8s with pans and they 'still' needed a push cat.
1000 ft is at the distance limit for tracked equipment, the ideal distance for a dozer and pan is 300' to 1000'. Tracked equipment is slow, rubber-tyred is the way to go. Find a real big loader cheap, one with teeth on the bucket, they'll shift a lot of dirt over that distance. Carrying the dirt is the secret behind dirt moving efficiency over a distance. Even a big old dump truck would be an option.
An excavator and something like this could be an option. http://www.miskin.com/DumpWagon.htm
My advice, use your excavator and get a ADT rental. If you look around, you can find some good deals on ADT's, If you are renting from a dealer, not so much.
Curious why people are recommending the ADT? Is it due to capacity? Or confidence on the terrain? My issue with a single truck is wasted time. I am not yet sure what cycle times would look like but ideally I would like to send one off about the time another returns to keep moving. The other question is on bulking dirt, then climbing a pile to load trucks or attempt to dig the pond and load directly? Lifting high into a truck from ground level will take time but probably still faster than moving dirt twice. ??
I can tell by your response you are a small dirt contractor, as I am. rent a ADT.....................
If you're doing everything by yourself nothing is going to be very efficient unless you had a scraper. Short of that you're going to have to jump in and out of different machines. The bigger of hauler you can get the better. If you could get drivers and had 2 trucks wouldn't be too bad. Loading directly into a truck(s) or ADT is the most efficient.
1) Unless the bottom is pure slop, the ADT drives on the floor level, It can elevate that dirt a lot faster than your excavator. Cut a slot and keep the truck in it as you march across the pond. 2) you are getting the ADT answer because you have a decent excavator to start with. Nothing else you have is really suited. Putting street trucks on the haul requires a lot more attention to the haul paths. The ADT dumps a taller pile for berm building, if you stack them tight it is 6' high without any dressing. 3) a 30 ton ADT is 20 yards a whack. That's only 200 trips. Put somebody in the ADT, and think about how you will shape it while you wait, or, climb up and down and load yourself.
Fair enough, I will have to see if getting one here is even feasible. Not many around. Pretty certain the dealers have them and would rent, but I probably won't want to pay that.. Would be super to find a private guy that owns one and wants to work. I will think more on driving an ADT down in the hole. Didn't really consider that. When I cut a pond this size, I typically work only from the top, cut the center, and work my way out, so it could work to simply drive that ADT down near my dig and I can probably fill him up pronto.
that is the only way to move dirt efficiently. Cut a slope and enough floor as you back the truck to you, then make it a drive through, unless you have a sharp truck backer. March across taking out what you were sitting on, then turn around and go the other way. 90 swing and minimal boom lifting.
I also have a permit to build a house in WA State. I gave up when construction costs tripled. But I digress. My house design required me to relocate approximately 400 yards of earth (from digging the daylight basement) to the North-West part of my property. My using the 128 excavator was a no-go. Trying to move it with the little dozer was a no-go also. My solution was to buy an old 5 yard dump truck (picture attached). The plan was for me to dig & load the dump truck while the wife made loops in the truck to the upper lot & dump. Then every 40 or so yards I'd go up there with the little dozer and smooth things out. A pretty good plan (labor vs cost balance). IMHO an old dump truck will typically hold its resale value pretty well. You could consider it a low-cost rental solution. Even though I gave up on building, I decided to keep my dump truck - it's much too useful. I have it registered at 26,000 GVRW (no CDL required), and the insurance is quite reasonable. At that GVRW I can only haul 4 yards of crushed basalt rock without exceeding the registered GVRW - whereas the truck is capable of hauling about 5.5 yards. As far as the DOT number - I don't have one. When asked, I'm not for hire. . . . Moving 4000 yards however - I'd probably get a 10 yard dump. The next big question is how quickly can you load it? Note: in Kitasp County you need a permit to move/relocate more than 150 yards of Earth. The permit itself isn't cheap, and the hoops to obtain one are quite painful - environmental impact studies, stormwater management studies, wetland surveys, and about 10 months processing time (typical) - not to mention the county reserves the right to tell you no. . . . If you get caught moving more than 150 yards without a permit, in addition to a significant monetary fine (I believe it's 20 grand) you'll also be hit with a stop-work order (that's transferable if you sell the property) for 10 years. I'm not sure about the rules in your part of Washington State, but it might be a good idea to ask some questions before you start digging. . . . because it's still Washington State. . . . Best of luck
what made you think he is in Washington state? the guy is midwest and none of your information is relevant.
My apologies. I thought was your thread skyking1. The little icon shows the last person who responded to the thread - not the thread originator. It did seem odd to me that you'd need to move 4000 yards to build your house.
Agreed. Nothing to do with WA and do not have restrictions on moving dirt on my farm. Also have letter from the Army Corps that this falls outside of their concern.
I wouldn't say that none of the information is relevant. You can often come out ahead when purchasing used equipment for a large project, then reselling when complete - in lieu of renting. You'll come out way ahead compared to paying a contractor.
Around here I can hire solo trucks with drivers for ~1000 a day. 2 trucks for 3 days = $6000 That's 7 minute rounds with the OP loading with his 322. 400 boxes of dirt, 133 a day. That includes the guys in the seats. can you possibly do anything less expensive in both your money and your time? your time is worth at least $50 per hour. You could get an old truck for 20K and hope it holds together, and drag the job out to 3 weeks. That sounds like misery to me. Just hire two trucks and have it bulked out in 3 days. I figure 6 scoops with the GP bucket per load, a 2 minute load cycle is generous with the truck below you. That gives the operator 5 minutes to dress and clean. He could add a truck but if it is a new gig for him, any hiccups and you have more $$ dancing in your head while you sort out a soft spot or something. hang a laser target on the stick and cut the floor right to finish. Pre-stake all the tops and slopes so you are not wasting time there. Maybe leave a little meat for the dozer to slope, but I prefer to slope with the excavator and be done with it.
Fastline can purchase an operational 10 yard dump truck at government surplus auction for about 6 to 8 grand. Then he may accomplish the work at his own comfortable 3-week long pace. When complete, he’ll own a dump truck. Or if he chooses, he can sell the dump truck - likely for some profit. As you’ve pointed out,- in this scenario he’d be ahead 6 to 8 grand in savings, while behind 3-weeks in schedule. It’s easy to spend other people’s money in making construction-path recommendations. Be aware that Fastline may have assigned a different dollar-value to his time-variable for this project, than you have assigned. When people attack projects themselves, it's usually because they're trying to save money - not schedule.
I will add, as a One Man show a ADT is great for Contractors with Employees, but with a Single hand on controls slows the entire game back to a crawl. Rubber tired Pan preferably a 615 Cat or LARGER, buy it, rent it, lease it, not going to get anything cheaper for the time spent and Spend LESS time moving earth. One man Load and deliver so long as do NOT get heavy handed trying to cut a foot deep every pass., get stockpile built THEN worry of levee construct and compaction. CAN utilize excavator to break the materials to softer lifts or just deal with having to take lighter cuts, Still gonna move More Dirt faster than a Ex and a Second man in a ADT or Commercial Dump truck. Get lucky, get a second on the 7, get a push to load quicker and a hand to break out the hardpan earth so can make faster heavier runs. End of game, put pan up for sale or return rental/lease unit.
There are no money savings when you have to fix that truck. It is not at the auction because it is a jewel.
The vast majority of Government vehicles (County, State & Federal) get routine maintenance - many are garage kept. They are replaced when they age to make way for new vehicles (because they've got a budget to spend). The vehicles are pulled from operational service and sold at auction - often times in better running condition, and with far less miles, than a private-sector counterpart. I'm much more comfortable purchasing a surplus government vehicle at auction - compared with purchasing within the used private sector market. Nine times out of ten the surplus government vehicle will be a better deal - both in operational condition, and cost.
A coworker bought a firetruck at auction for 3000 dollars (it had the diesel engine he needed to get his truck running). The fire truck had less than 40,000 miles on it. No dirt on the engine, no oil leaks - new tires, clean fluids, new filters throughout - again, government vehicles receive proper maintenance (full service shops). He pulled the engine, sold the tires, sold the rest as scrap. Got all his money back (with profit) - and a free engine (less his labor in pulling it).
As mentioned, I am open to buying a thing or two as long as we are not talking stupid money. The main thing here is I don't want to be stacking countless idle hours on the hoe while I go dump a truck. As far and rolling solo, I can certainly get some asses to fit in seats, but I don't know anyone but myself qualified to run the dozer or hoe. Trucks I can prob get people for. I think I have a higher standard than most regarding an 'employee' because I tend to fire people quickly when they feel a grease gun is beneath them. This project should go quickly if done right. 3 days and mostly done, but I will certainly have way more time in finishing and stripping back topsoil. I'm not too worried about that as long as I bulk the dirt to the target. . It sounds like there is still hot debate on scrapers vs trucks. I really don't have an answer other than it seems scrapers can be quite picky in what they are working in, but a hoe can dig just about anything any get it in a truck. There is also the issue of availability. Like I said, we just don't have any scrapers around so guys that do have them feel their 60yo beat down scraper is worth $35k. I also have lost count how many people say "runs good", when my mechanical eyes can clearly see that is not the case. Every hydro cylinder leaks, hydro oil that is a milk shake, but she runs great....... for 5min.
I've never seen a scraper used here, even on big jobs, not sure why. 95% of it is excavator and dump trucks. Either 10 wheelers, 18-22 wheelers or off road trucks. Rock trucks, mine trucks, Euclid B70s, etc depending on the job. The other 5% is loading with a front end loader. Have to say loading and hauling alone feels like it's like eating a whale with a teaspoon. 12hrs of that and certainly get in the aerobics!
As long as the equipment holds up though, so that's always a risk. Plus fuel, and more so your time. IE, buy an older D6 for $10k, and engine fails halfway into the project. Put an engine in, so what $5k (im guessing) and maybe get 10k when sold.
Could always call the local guys in the off season and see if they have a truck and driver sitting around. I've picked up extra hours here and there from people calling in.
My vote is still option number 1. Scraper, 2. ADT, 3. hire a couples locals with tandems, however I think you may be over analyzing the situation. In the grand scheme of things, for the size equipment you have, this is a small job. The wear on the dozer undercarriage, idle hours on the excavator, time wasted switching between vehicles, etc is fairly inconsequential IMO. We’re talking 4000yds not 400,000yds. Pick a time when you can get some help and a few days of dry weather and get after it with whatever trucks/equipment you can round up. Think of it this way, in the time this thread has been going you could have had the job done already.
I agree with that! I actually like the ADT idea other than I'd like a pair of them going, but whatev. Basically because I dig ponds....I use that 322 for them. I know exactly what to expect regarding time and performance. Peeling stuff out of the ground, I can probably get close to 3yd in a swing. Probably more than I should in that machine, but I go slow with that much load. I will see what I can find for ADT rentals and such today. Sometimes I find that hiring in is better because the fuel is on them, there is a driver, they are insured, etc. Another reason I like the ADT is their beds are robust so I could nearly drop clay on them at any height without concern. Something else I like on ADT trucks is the heaped pile they will make. A scraper is going to need to drive on the berm and I can see a roll over hazard if too soft or peaked. But in some of this, I am trying to plan/design right now. I usually waste a lot of time in this phase because I don't like saying "I wish I would have". I'm trying to think how I plan to contour the berms, get the top soil peeled away, how I will put it back, and what the slopes/grades should be. I know I want them around 6ft tall, but also wide enough at the top that an ATV can be on them. I will plan trees and such into them. I used to work on golf course shaping and always amazed how fast we can burn dirt for a little hill. I'm trying to ensure my estimated 4k yds should not be 10k. Let's just say I have this grand plan in my head and I can see it, but I need to align the steps.
For the berms I think if you put the piles close together and several feet higher than required, you could just drive your D7 across the top for initial shaping. If you want to drive ATV's across the top make sure the slopes aren't too extreme where there would be an instant roll over if a tire went over the edge. If you have lots of material and could make the slopes running the dozer lengthwise instead of up and down would be the fastest. It would also let you pack the sides of the berm pretty fast. If they're going to have grass, mowing lengthwise would also be much faster. Careful placement of the piles would make things a lot faster and easier. You may not want to back up to dump but it could be way faster than having to move random piles around 2 or 3 times or move dirt from a central pile. On a smaller scale when I was putting a slope on the corners of my oval track, it didn't take long to shape when the piles were basically right where I needed them. Each corner needed approx. 500yds. to make the slope. I was a little shocked it took so much material but the shaping went pretty fast.
No, the berms aren't really intended to be mowed. I will plant native grasses and wild flower on them for a low maint strategy, and to grow taller grasses to add to the screening effect. But I don't want to make them so extreme that they look like unnatural piles of dirt. It will be a mix of hills and valleys to create a more natural appearance. On other projects, I am usually able to do some decent shaping with the excavator, then dress it with a CTL. I am not really a master of the dozer and might end up making more of a mess is my concern.
A CTL could be pretty fast shaping the berms but the dozer with wider tracks would be better for packing it in. You don't want the berm to get parts of it washed away or develop deep rain ruts if you get a heavy rain before the wild flowers or whatever grows in.
Agreed. This was part of my thinking in going with a scraper. I will have to think more on the compaction side. I also don't want to waste time shaping poorly compacted soil that will move a lot causing rework. Just throwing the dozer tracts on it alone should help a bunch.
Both a CTL or your 7 will not compact to what needs to be, are built intentionally Low Ground Pressure, being on Tracks. Sheeps foot, Anything Rubber Tire running back and forth over shallow lifts, need Ground Pressure and not displacing pressure in that process.
Yup, I agree! Usually I use my 16k# tractor and do some driving. She works good! But that would be scary on this slope. I will think more on this.
So, have done some local checking and have two big contractors I am talking to. I think in name dropping where I came from, they realize I can run the job and one was going to check on a possible rental, which would be awesome! Either way, he was going to see if he could wiggle a toy to me to knock the job out. I know I will need an ass in that seat anyway. Also got contact with our Komatsu dealer and they are at $5200/week for an HM300. If I have it for a week, I will certainly make use of those hours. In a nice cab, I might even be able to get my dad out of retirement to put in some seat time. I really think a rental would take some pressure off of me as I am sure things will need adjustments. I'd like to own equipment and not give up cash on the job, but $5k on a job this size, just to accelerate it, would be great. I'm very confident tandem road trucks could never drop into the pond and get out. I think I would have some confidence in an ADT and hoe combo to get a certain result, even if it was 20% slower.
Running numbers on trip time, I am estimating 10mph average travel speed. That is about 1min each way for 1000ft trip, 1min for positioning at each end so 4min, so let's call it a 5min trip? These trucks are pretty standard in the 30-31T range which I think I can load them until they won't take anymore at about 25yds. Assuming I can pitch 6yds a min with a really good positioning, that is about 4min to load a truck, so 9min per truck load or 2.7yds/min average. 4000yds, that is 25hrs of work. Obviously half of that is idle time. I don't see a scenario that makes these numbers look better and I think my 6yd/min load is ambitious given that I have to peel it from the earth. I am trying to figure out how I make this pencil better? Even another small truck could fill some gaps but is it worth it?
If you have idle time while setting in the hoe you should do way better than 6 yd/min. You will have time to get the next load dug out and keep everything dressed.
30 tons = 22 yards. Don't plan on 25 unless you are ready to be disappointed. Figure 180 boxes for 4000 yards. This still works out to 3 days @ 60 loads per day. It is the same as running two rental 3 axle dump trucks with drivers, and nearly the same money except you are buying the diesel, paying to move the truck, and putting a body in the seat. Do yourself a favor and get a quote for solo trucks in your area. You may be pleasantly surprised. Around here we can get 3 axle trucks for ~110 an hour, 900 a day. I suspect your rates may be lower. the only caveat is if they cannot move on your site, and nobody can judge that except you. Some test pits will confirm the driving conditions at the pit floor elevation.
When you say 3 axle, are you counting the front steer? I would agree that I need to at least get quotes on those trucks so I can compare but I am usually pretty frustrated with trucker types around here. They are cocky, nothing is ever their fault or problem, etc. But I know in the past, it has worked out smarter to just let someone else come with their own fuel and problems.
I moved a 150 loads with my 953 and tandem. About a 1/2 mile there was absolutely no way I could get 60 loads a day.this sounds way to good to be right.
Less than half that distance, and running trucks down in a slot? What were your numbers? I am not sure of what you were moving with a 953 but if digging virgin soil, I could see why! I have no problem breaking right through the soil and getting a massive bucket in seconds. Prob pushing 3yds. I am also accounting for limited swings....about 90*.
3 axle truck is a steer and a set of tandems. yes if you swing more than that you are not doing it right. Which bucket do you have on the excavator?
I think 30 almost killed me. That's was running from truck to loader. You have to keep the dump areas in shape. And the trucks only raise and lower so fast. I will be surprised if you manage 40
he'd have a butt in the seat so no running. dump areas are future berms, so you just tight stack it until you have your approximate length of berm and a few extra to play with, and then go make another. As long as the haul paths hold up there is no maintenance. Each route only has to take a handful of loads, so most of the ground beating will be near the source, the pond itself.
Take video I will believe it when I see it.
Should be a 132-5069 bucket, S link, 2.12yd, at 3500#/yd density all day. I currently have the side bitters on. All I know is if virgin soil, I can hold compaction on some clumps and really sling some mass but I must be careful. If I can keep truck at 6ft high or less, I am gold. As for running solo, hell no would I do that while renting! I know I have to move like lightning!
But you didn't share details of your situation, only insult mine. I know my hoe and material. Not saying I can hit my targets yet, but I am doing the numbers.
In the famous words of a moderator on here run what you brung keep what you make In a perfect scenario scraper is the answer followed by a ADT but a weeks long rental and mob for either of those machines is more money than hiring some local dump trucks I would hire 2 trucks say your 4 days into it your might be close to 9 grand in trucking with none of the risk at all In my experience it doesn't matter what's the best machine for the job when you don't own it cause if the jobs under 15000 yards renting it won't save you anything most of the time I have done a lot of work that I had to small a machine for or the wrong machine for most of them.i made good money on because I ran what I had and didn't spend more than the job budget on the right machine for the job to then sit in the yard for another 9 months because the right work hasn't come up for it Once you have more iron than you can run and don't really want to hire any body getting more iron won't increase your ROI
Not insulting. I had a quick circle turn around, back straight up and dump. Load from a stock pile. Probably the only way it could have been better would be cut and loading in a drive through slot. I was on level ground. I had an advantage of being able to dump the dirt exactly where it needed to be. You will be relying on someone who most likely won't get it prefect. It takes as much time to clean up the piles as it does to load it.
You need a 3rd guy a dozer operator
As far as dump area, I am not really concerned as I know I have many days on that by myself to shape and perfect it to my own liking. That is outside the scope of this 'bulk move' project. All I need to do right now is move cubic yards. I will first strip the topsoil in the dump areas as well as the entire pond area. Prob a 2ft cut. Yes, trucks in a slot. But I fail to, again, understand what you were trying to do with a 953 because I know of a guy that dug a big pond with one, and it took him a YEAR! Because a track loader is a poor choice as a sole weapon to dig a pond! I am just trying to understand. My trips are less than half of yours as well. That should account for something. Hell, some are as short as 600ft..
60 loads on a short haul is easy if the ground holds up. I've done that with ADT's day after day. I've also buried an ADT in a moment when the ground was wrong. As far as excavator shows, I loaded out a 186,000 yard " extra" on a job with 6~7 trucks, mostly 30 ton with a couple of 40's mixed in. It was a 450 Hitachi with a 6' bucket and it was a big pile, so I had the machine about 8' above the grade. The biggest load count was 377 with the trucks on a 3 minute average round, so there was always 3 trucks waiting to load. That is very frustrating to always see trucks. You just climb down and pizzaz on the far side then get back in the seat. That is "angry" loading. The pile was ~30' tall, so i munched my way forward and then picked up what I was sitting on till I got to the end, then made a notch and stepped into it, picked up what I was on and reversed direction. Wheel loading it was a 90,000 yard topsoil mining operation to cover this landfill, south of the transfer station. https://maps.app.goo.gl/i5GzQC2xya9HEWHM8 We mined it off a farm out in Adna. I had a 7 and an 8 making piles and I was loading with a 988B with the spade bucket. The soil was very light so we bulked out before getting to 30 tons. All the trucks were 8 axle dump and pups. Scoop and a half in the truck, pull forward dump the rest in the trailer and another scoop. It was another angry loading show. I'd get there before daylight and there would be 22 trucks lined up on the county road. We'd load 215 trucks a day, a bit more than your pond job.
I've worked quite a bit around big trucks. They are slow to raise and backup. And the drivers don't always get the dirt in the right spot. We have a man directing them because it can be hard to get them lined up where you want then. As far as a 953 I can load a truck pretty darn fast of course my tandem is smaller than a 30 ton but I can load My tandem in 7 scoops, as I am backing and turning it is raising the load. I can hog enough dirt the rear end will get light. I might be able to load my truck just as fast as you can load the bigger truck
7 loads from a 953 to load a tandem truck? They must have been pretty overloaded unless it was topsoil. I can overload a tandem of moist clay in 7 buckets with a 931B. The hoe on back helps super heap the bucket.
Yep probably grossing 75k. Typically 5 if on road. 6 if you can't get it heaped
Is not always the drivers fault unable to place dirt where wanted, Too Soft, Too Steep, no room for errors so they drop as can place close. Been there done that.
Is there any price point that something like this beater dump truck would make sense for the project? Log into Facebook Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know. www.facebook.com It's a $20000 Cat d25d and I'm wondering what situation would justify someone buying such a thing. I'm finding this discussion interesting as I'm trying to fill in a pond and there is a stockpile of fill about 4000 feet away.
In what I see as condition, that is a scrapyard runaway. Conventional Commercial Road type Dump truck for same money can get your money somewhat back from or at least repurpose once project done to business use, that antique, NO.
that's a silly price for 16K hours and racing slicks. I have worked self loading scrapers as a dump truck on sites, loading them with an excavator. Just takes a little imagination. I don't know if the elevator worked oir not, but the stones we were in were a no-go for a paddlewheel.
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I've resisted commenting on this thread, because without having personal knowledge of the ground conditions/soil type, any guess is purely a WAG. That being said, I do believe 12-1500 yards per day is attainable with a 322, loading and relying on one truck is going to be a challenge. Sky is getting closer suggesting 60 loads per day, but I'd prob want to figure around 50. When you get all these balls in the air, the minutes evaporate like spit in the fire. I struggle to believe you would be able to average much better than 12-15 minutes per ADT load. IF you are absolutely certain it will drive through the pit, then your odds are better, but you still have to make that initial cut, and loading into the bed of an ADT with a 322 from ground level is going to be a 7-8 minute ordeal, I don't care how good of an operator you are. The next problem is figuring 10 mph average speed. Unless you have bladed paths to run on, 6-7 is going to be the max after the first day, maybe sooner. Maybe you have perfect dirt to work with and this is all way to conservative, but no matter how well you preplan and figure and guesstimate and ask others for advice, the dirt will always throw you a curve ball. Good luck.
That's why I suggested a couple of rental trucks so he can keep things moving. He has a 7 for keeping the haul roads up, which has the right price on it. I also suggest not going nuts with the heaping loads. It often bites back on the roads. There is no free lunch to be had there.
The weight of the loaded hauler might start pumping the ground like driving on a sponge and it will be impossible to keep it level. When the gravel pit brought over a 180 Volvo loader it made the ground seem like a sponge where with any of my machines it seemed really firm and solid.
Bingo! Which is why I am sort of torn. Basically just trying not to waste money if I have problems and I have time to think on this project. I know I spent months on a PGA golf coarse project where we were running a 966 around. Was amazed how that ground felt so solid, yet that 966 sunk many inches. Later in engineering, I learned that soil is a spring but the "pumping" thing is largely a civil side in understanding. Basically compression of the soil squeezes any water out and can cause an otherwise stable area work well for a few cycles, but eventually go to hell. Each pass does not firm it, but makes it worse. Most large projects that are going on around here are running scraper pans, not ADTs. I would assume largely due to the efficiency but also because they are taking elevation cuts which makes a scraper ideal. There was a small pond done at a church recently and they ran two pans with ag tractors on them. I didn't see too many complications but that is also a LOT of tires on the ground. I haven't found anyone locally yet running ADTs for quotes but I'm sure any way I want to look at it, I will be on the hook if it doesn't run smoothly. This is mostly why I want to try to find budget toys to put on the job so I am not really out anything if it doesn't go right. I do like the thought of the dump pile of an ADT. A scraper just can't do that. But I should not get too wound up about that aspect right now. I can shove a pile in quick order with the D7. I will have to shove the stripped top soil back up there anyway.
Could maybe build up the haul route with a few loads and pack that in. Then push it out with the D7 at the end or dig it out with the hoe.
If you hire a couple of road trucks and it doesn't work out, you just send them home. There's no reason to agonize over this.
Yeah, I would think if they're looking for work they'll try to make it work. If it doesn't it's not like you have a fixed price you have to pay them.
Nope you send them home and regroup. It happens all the time, every time it rains!
When I’m faced with a project that I’ve never done before, about 75% of the planning is done in the office, the other 25% is experimenting on the job site. I generally work by myself, the only ‘plans’ are in my head, and my overhead is pretty low so I can take that luxury when needed. I believe this is one of those types of projects. At some point you need to pick the option you think is the most viable and try it. I’d start with something that doesn’t cost much out of pocket and get to work. I often take a little note pad and a stopwatch and get some real data on how things are going to work out such as cycle times, actual volumes in trucks, bank vs loose yardage etc. After a day or so, sometimes even a few hours, you have some real numbers you can use to figure out how to proceed.
^^^^^^^This. Hire a couple road trucks for a morning. If nothing else, have them haul the stripping. Dig up a pile of topsoil so you have a bunch to start with. Then you'll know.
Any chance that you might get hired to work the new housing site?
Fast line does the lake area have any wetness in the work zone? Do you have any pictures of the location?
When it comes to estimating see if you can download a copy of the Caterpillar Performance Handbook from the web. They have a comprehensive section on dirt moving. One thing that was always provided for was that all the standard calculations were based on a 50-minute operating hour. That way all the small hiccups that always happen on any job were allowed for in the original calculation.
So I am sort of passively looking at a cat 631 bowl that was converted to a pull pan. I am still gathering info but I really have no idea how much that pan could weigh ,other than a LOT. My guess is 20k plus the 30yd load in it. Basically, as I mentioned before, I really hate giving away rental/hire cash that could go towards equipment I could use. Not entirely sure this is the right answer but it's something. obviously would have to grab a machine worthy of pulling it but my though was maybe to get a friend/fam in that seat to half load the pan, then I would just top it off with the hoe? Usually that is the way it goes with pans, they load for a bit until that heep needs to go up.
I think you could have had the job half done already if you just started with the equipment you have. You need a good size tractor to pull a 30yd. pan.
If you were close you could rent me, my choice of machine, I think I could move that in about 3 days maybe but I'd need a break once in a while can't go like I used to. If I'm right that would be about a 50' x 50' x 50' cube of dirt. Did I figure that right?
This is probably the least desirable idea I've read on this thread yet.