Video killed the Radio Star...and its said by many that the Hydraulic Excavator killed the Backhoe. We have had a number of discussions on this forum about the topic and whilst its for sure that Excavators have decimated the Backhoe population its hard to deny that the "Jack of All Trades" is sometimes the most practical and economical way of getting the job done. Some jobs you just can't beat the Backhoe. Some discussion here: But anyway, TLB's can get the job done as an excavator but my gripe has been that the are a really average loader....and I learnt on Massey Fergusons Backhoes. We have also had some discussion on new machinery being released...."Revolution" Vs "Evolution". It would seem to me that these new backhoes coming on the market (some serious evolution) with 4WS and equal sized tyres might be seriously addressing some of the Backhoes shortcomings. It would be good to hear from somebody operating one of these flash new machines. If a backhoe could level a pad with the precision a loader can then I'd be interested. This thread was started more about wether the TLB might be making a comeback not wether an Excavator is better than a Backhoe, however, I'd love to see some sort of comparitive sales analysis of Backhoe sales and Hydraulic excavator sales over a long period...say 10 years. I seem to remember like 20 years ago it was rare to see a building site without a backhoe...these days it seems the opposite. Anyway...will the Backhoe make a big comeback???:beatsme
I think excavator style pilot controls really have helped (the older guys hate 'em, but I think they're nice) make the backhoe more like an excavator. I dunno, maybe rubber tracks or equal size tires/4x4//4WS and front locking differentials will make a difference. I've noticed that Case has made their front tires bigger on the 580M+ and deere/Terex/cat have bigger front rubber. I still think they have a great niche in the "side of the road" market and for contractors like myself who have to road their machines.
I've spent probably 75% of my total operating hours on backhoes, but in the last couple of years, my backhoe time probably only adds up to a few dozen hours. I don't think the control style makes much of a difference. It's what the machine itself is capable of. There are other factors at play. I think the skidsteer/min-ex combo has done a lot to hurt the tried and true TLB. While the bigger ones like the Case 780s and Dynahoes gave way early on to the 120 size excavators, the utility sized backhoes; like the 580s, have lost out more recently to the smaller machines. A good sized mini will dig almost as much of a trench as a 580, and a good sized skid will load and carry competitively with one. Smaller bucketfuls, certainly, but the ability to zip in and out of tight spaces and turn 360 degrees in their own length makes them so much more agile. That agility is worth a lot. That same agility is what makes the mini-ex more attrcative in many applications. It'll fit in tighter spaces, and can dump a bucketful anywhere you please. One of the biggest headaches with a TLB, once you get away from trenching a nice straight line in a wide open area, is figuring out where to put the "TL" part so that you can use the "B" part to dig where you want, and dump where you want. Put rubber tracks on that excavator, and you've also eliminated the TLB's advantage in being friendlier to pavement. Sure, if you want to have only one machine, and run up and down the road with it, the TLB is the way to go. I think it's a case of the backhoe getting squeezed out from both ends. On the bigger jobs, there's almost certainly going to be a full-sized excavator, and if it has a 24" bucket available, it can do most of the trenching that a TLB used to do. On the smaller jobs, the little machines can get in and out of more places more easily than backhoes can, so they're a more attractive option. I don't think TLBs will ever go away altogether, but I think their day as the machine of choice for many applications has passed...
I dunno about the age of the tlb having passed, I'd rather say that the machine is adapting. Yes skid steers and minis have cut into the market once dominated by the tlb, but diff lock and 4x4 have given it areas where you either used a track loader hoe or and excavator. JCB, kubota, deere, Almand bros, and maybe Ingersol are getting into the combact tlb market. We use 310sg deere's for digging utility trench and for closing up pipe trenches w/ how packs. I think that they are a multipurpose machine that will continue to be around for awile. Look at the market, more and more manufactures are getting into the market rather than getting out of the market.
In my mind at least, the Backhoe is somewhat restricted by its origins...by this I mean it appears if the design is skewed towards trying to make a better excavator out of a tractor platform...with the loader a handy tack on bit. Trying to make the proverbial silk purse out of a sows ear. Perhaps, like some European models, the TLB might be better based on an articulated loader design with the hoe added on??? if that makes any sense. I assume overall length might then be a problem...and the TLB achilles heal is weight distribution/balance. Never mind, just think out a loud.
I agree with you. I'd like to see an articulated or 4-W/S B/H for my tight jobsites. Some smaller ones were available, they were made by New Holland in the 80's, but they didn't hang on long enough.....almost like they were before their time. The overall length would grow on an articulating machine, but should be overcome by manueverability. I think 4 wheel steer would be better since you could retain a short machine length but increase manueverability by a decent margin.
Komatsu made some European articulated models a few years ago, but I haven't seen any since. The front was like a mini articulated loader and the backhoe folded up pretty tight. They were model WB75 or something like that. Here are some pictures http://www.caersrl.it/images/Z4.000.035.jpg http://www.cappaetfils.com/img/engins/komatsu.jpg
For what it's worth, Hydrema still make articulated TLBs, even some pretty big ones. http://www.hydrema.com/ I certainly believe that the age of the backhoe loader being the "go-to" of choice is over, but there will always be the niche. They are still the darlings of city works departments in this neck of the woods.
Hey I think I remember those machines, they were called the General or something like that. Edit: a quick search turned up this pic.
I agree with Digger..........
I think the future is decent, but they will never be as popular as they once were, just too many other good options for contractors to choose from. However I also thought the small dozer would be around forever and I was wrong about that.
i run a 4 wheel steer, 4 wheel drive backhoe. granted it is smaller at only around 47HP but i love it. for speed moving material and loading in a dump it will definitly give a skid steer a run for the money. Bobcat has stopped selling these backhoes as well as ingersoll from what i understand. interestingly enough JCB is now building some that seem like the same machine. the new JCB models also have more HP and capabilities. i am looking forward to seeing one at the dealer when they get them in. i am able to run skid steer attachments off the front of mine and for grading a pad i have a box blade from a tractor with a skid steer adapter. box blades work fine for grading. all in all i have very little use for skid steers and have a hard time justifying the expense. i definitly don't think backhoes are a thing of the past as much as a victim of good marketing by companies like bobcat selling their "bobcat system". i may take a longer than 2 operators in a skid steer and mini ex but i also have less payments and don't have to worry about another operator. good luck on your shopping
Digger,you have such a way with words. I said my piece in the link squizzy posted but basically if I could have only one machine it would be a TLB.If I could have several machines I would still want one as part of my fleet. I also know as Digger knows why people badmouth them. A seasoned operator will give credit where credit is due. A TLB will be my machine of choice even today on some jobs.I used finish grading driveways as an example in my other post because you can carry the process to the driveway as well as grade and remove the excess with very little handwork.Having rubber tires allows you to back out in the street on the pavement,something a dozer cannot do. The secret to good results with a loader or backhoe is in having equal tire pressure all around so the bucket contacts the ground squarely from side to side. There is no other single machine with one operator on the payroll that can produce so much with the versatility of a TLB.Ron G
The enclosed cab IR BL570 would be a little small but otherwise perfect for me on most of my jobs. http://www.machinerytrader.com/list...5811681&guid=F4DD7737F1764C87A1B0D8671A926F16 I would buy this in a hearbeat, but since they stopped making them, I get a little apprehensive about parts, service, resale value.
I think a backhoe will be around for a good while but may look a little different through time like already mentioned being articulated. A backhoe is just nice because it is versatile on different surfaces, can go down the road if needed, and can dig and load. I still see allot of them around. A matter of fact I think they are starting to make somewhat of a comeback. The skid steer and trackhoe has really affected there market but the issue with these machines is unless you have a big truck and trailer you have to make several trips. A backhoe is just not good digging with the front bucket like a skidsteer. More machines require more maintenance but at the same time one machine equals more hours of use.
The other thing with a skid steer is it's so easy to see the bucket and that makes it real easy to do FEL work with it. In a backhoe, you're much farther away. I always wondered what a B/H would be like with rubber tracks on it? They've taken the skid steer and done a real nice job converting them into a rubber track machine, so why not try a backhoe?
CASE had a rubber tracked BH at the last ConExpo. I don't know if the engineering guys had some time to kill or it is a serious project but the machine is a working prototype.
The backhoe has some more tricks up its sleeve. One of the main advantages of an excavator is the 360* swing, and the backhoe is limited to 180*. Case is working on a design to make a TLB a 360* swing machine by keping the front loader and in the place of the normal cab, placing a rotating house similar to a mini ex. This would be a huge leap, but may result in an even more productive machine. I do think that I would prefer to have a skid steer and a mini ex instead of a TLB to do genereal site work. The 2 are about the same price as a TLB, and you can use either one, or with an extra operator, use both. I agree with Ron that for a one man show, a TLB is the best way still.
Or if you have to road your equipment.
MultiJob MXJ Please see: http://haulotte-multijob.com/Multijob/index.htm Case had better check with the Patent Office. However being a French made machine, with the dollar to Euro ratio being the way it is, I can't see this machine being affordable in the USA, unless the French have a factory in China or India. Unless they build this in the USA, Quality would be a nightmare!
I think this discusion is interresting. Here in Norway they don't sell any BLT at all.(well, maybe under 10/year) Nowbody want's them. On the construction sites the telescopic trucks has taken over the lifting jobs. With a bucket you get a loader as well. The digging is done with wheeled excavators or the mini's. Regarding the discussion on levers ill post a picture of our BLT. This is a 1991 Volvo 6300. It's got joystick controls... Excavater style when the seat is turned back. Controls the loader when turned to the front. Everything is controlled by the joysticks anyway. Push a button and the exc is controlled when seated to the front. Gearshift on one button and so on. Difflock, pendel lock on axel, everything.. Then to the physical force of this little one..... This particular one is in good shape, lifts 10 000lbs++.Has the same force as a L120... The front lifting system is from a Volvo 4400.(L70/L90 ap.) You lower the backhoe and just keep on lifting... The exc has a extra hinge on the arm so you get more than 180 degrees. Our best all performer machine, roading is no problem.. speeds well. A typichal allround machine that works with everything. We have till today not found any machine on the market that can do the same as theese ones. It's this year the competitors has come up with joysticks, equal wheels, and real power on the lifting system. I didn't say anything about the price; they can be made today, but nowbody will afford to buy one.
I will take my 410G over a small excavator or skid steer combo anyday.No,the TLB will not go away--no reason to--it's not like the last days of the dinosaur as some of you would have us believe.Just look at all the new,ingenius designs being released.This costs the manufacturers big bucks obviously--if there wasn't a huge market,they simply wouldn't do it.
i still think it comes down to marketing. in my situation i was able to get a tlb with a 12" dig depth and the loader can lift in excess of 3000#. i was able to get this with trailer, couple attachments with only 500 hrs. for under25,000. if i was to go shopping for a skid steer min ex combo with the same capacities and ablilities and hours ithink i would be spending a bit more. new the story is the same, JD 110 w/ 4in1 bucket and hydraulics around 38,000 new. to get the same abilities out of a combo more money would have to be spent. if you were a company and could sell 2 pieces of equipment for more or one for less it is easy what you will push. also, can't forget maintenance on 2 machines as apposed to one. i will agree that the 2 machines will get more done faster than the tlb but it does come with a price. i doubt we will see any majors putting a lot of research money into tlb's like the french one mentioned. i wish they would but money talks and i guess it wouldn't pay for them at this point. i can only speak on my experiance with compact equipment. on the larger stuff it may be totolly diffrent. i am very happy with a tlb and will probably follow this one with another one. preferably with more creature comforts. good luck
Are we forgetting JCB'S? I've seen quite a lot of people pointing out how nice it would be to have 4-w/s, and same size tires. But, it's been what? Close to 15 years since JCB came out with that option, and if I remember right case did too. Not only that, but JCB has the vertical outriggers and the sideshift booms that allow you to get close to buildings and such. Granted the machines aren't all that big but they sure looked handy.
any prototype of futurist backhoe loader?With these prototype,probably,the backhoe will be returned on all construction sites.I have seen the case and the volvo prototype of backhoe but no one of other manufacturers.
And let's not forget a blast from the past--a huge Pettibone,4X4,all 4 tires the same---BUT ARTICULATED!!! Almost as big as a 200-4 Dynahoe. I had a Cornbinder 3820,all 4 tires the same, but with rear wheel steer---needed a football field to turn that beast.JCB does make a decent hoe,granted,but nothing runs like a deere.Yeah,I'm biased.
I personally would like to see something like the one that is made by that french company, especially that i am in the market for equipment to start my own construction outfit. That machine has to be one of the most capable ones i have seen, and i would really like to see a company like case take the TLB to the next level.
They are a must for our operations as well. They will never die in this small part of the country.
Sure beats a pick and shovel. Large dozers are getting rare in New England. Excavators and off road truck and small dozers are what are used in moving material, but there is 1-2 BH's on any big site also
That is one scarey pic Mike.Is that a bucket of rocks way up in the air like that?Makes me shivver.Ron G
I'm no excavation contractor, not by far. In my travels though as a landscaper and arborist I've seen what the TLB and the skid steers / mini-x's can do. For myself if ever in a position to do so I'd have to say that I'd be going with a skid steer for versatility... grinder, harley rake, forks, grapples, etc. etc. and then a full sized backhoe. I couldn't see myself ever having a need for a mini-x because it's just not what I do.
Little off topic, but didnt the excavator kill the track loader??? Remember when u used to do all the digging with a t-loader??
Just kicking this thread into gear again. I suspect that jim is quite correct. The Trackie would appear to be even rarer in my parts than the TLB. Seems there is some consensus that the TLB might be making some sort of a minor comeback. I think one of the points we don't acknowledge is just how good the hydraulic excavator has become. By this I mean the multi-tasking speed of operation, manoeuvrability, comfort and overall performance. I was doing a small job last Saturday where the client is the partner and operations manager of one of our biggest drainage contractors. His smallest excavator is like a 160 (he thinks if its not 35 tonnes its only a toy)....so it was a bit funny him wanting my 3 tonner in his backyard. I gave him a run and after a few minutes I could see he wasn't all talk and obviously had years of experience under his belt. So I set him to it (He was paying the hourly hire :beatsme ) and got the skid running to feed around the back of his new pool. In seven hours we nailed the job which I'd figured at 2 days on my own. I still got paid roughly the same. Today he was ringing me still raving about the mini-ex and how he couldn't believe just how good it was in that application...and the zero-swing etc etc. There is just no way a TLB could have done more than 60% of that job with a 30 foot long section to backfill 4 feet deep and only 6 feet wide. Horses for courses...of course. On another note, since I started this thread I have been paying particular attention to how many TLB's there are on constructions sites. We are in a building boom and I have only seen 3 in recent months although I have seen a few on the road.....which raises a valid point about the TLB's ability to move from site to site.
Cranking up an older thread again...but was talking to a Cat salesman yesterday who said his biggest market for the TLB's is small and medium drainage/pipeline contractors. He also said this market has exceeded the sales target for the "E" series.
That`s nice!Does he talked about something new in the cat backhoe line for the future?
Around here a backhoe is one of the major pieces of kit for almost all the jobs that get done. mini ex's and skid steers etc are viewed more as toys, and an excavator is only owned by the bigger companies. Most of the time a backhoe is used because it is much more convenient to get to a job unless there is major excavation to be done, and will take fewer men to get the job completed. This is mostly a because a lowboy and truck won't be able to make most of the curves we have and roading an excavator a mile or two (if you're lucky) isn't the greatest way to be using the machine.
Well having owned both I would say it depends on a couple factors. If you have room to move then the TLB still can out production a excavator (agriculture jobs, road and bridge stuff). Its really in the city that the excvator starts to shine because of the small footprint it takes, you don't have to find someplace to park the tractor. Myself we sometimes haul our 580 behind the tandem and take it it out to our piles of top soil to load and haul into town for the bobcat to place on land scaping jobs. Loading 10 yards with a CX80 size excavator really bites Also the mobility is a big factor after you trench out 300 yards for water or sewer sometimes you have to place bedding material with the loader, and when you have room backfilling with the 580 over the CX80 it wasn't even close. The biggest problem I have though is the time it takes to get a new operator up to speed on the TLB compared to other machines.To run a TLB well the operator has to run both front and rear simutanously sometimes( You really run out of hands sometimes!) And teaching these guy's the value of the independent brakes for loader work, how to properly use the extendahoe, and this is still just elementary work. But once he's up to speed a operator makes a TLB real handy for just about anything.:thumbsup
I think a good backhoe operator is somewhat a dieing breed. Myself personally, Id rather operate a backhoe any day. Takes more talent and thinking. I enjoy running the backhoe much more than a skid, mini excavator, and most times a bigger loader or excavator. My dad has spent a good 3/4 of his career doing most of his work with a backhoe. He has to be the best hoe operator I have ever seen. He's taught me alot and I think we'd be lost without a backhoe no matter how much we use the other equipment. Its a loader, excavator,and dozer to us. It handles what the mini's can't and fits in the places were the 120 can't. Plus its the most mobile machine and works snow removal in the winter. I don't think the backhoe loader will ever truly fade away. When I buy my own machine it will be a backhoe no matter what.
I still see lots of backhoes all over the place, especially in road construction. We have public sewer going in a few miles away and there's at least a dozen 580's & 590's parked on the shoulder of the road. There are excavators, too, but way more backhoes. My dealer has at least 30new 580 Super M's on his lot. Not bad for something some of you are saying is dying away.
I think it's mostly young guys who are advocating the tonka toys.The TLB will always be the mainstay of most excavators.It's not going anywhere.
Can i get an AMEN! from the choir? :stirthepot opcorn
On the contrary, a few young guys still swear by the backhoe. Im soon to be 20. If you cant run a hoe than you shouldnt be on an excavator yet if you ask me. Learn the hard way before the easy.
I would rather run a backhoe than anything else, its just in our company the backhoe guy makes no money since all he does is hoe pack. But when I retire from sewer and water im gonna move back home, take up the old mans business and buy myself a nice Case 580 and go to town.
I would then say you might be the exception to my {and most other old farts}thinking and I would just like to say a hearty thankyou for your post.You are absolutely right on in your thinking.My Dad made me learn 34 years ago on the jerkiest,ungainly,unbalanced machine on the planet--an old '67 AC I600 TLB.He said if I could run that,I could run anything better.He was so right.He also used to say before a man could run a hoe,he had to be able to run a shovel{the 1 with a wood handle},and before an engineer could design a job,he had to know how to operate a hoe.Miss him dearly.
I wan't to buy my own hoe within the next few years, not go full time on my own, but side jobs and snow removal. I want to pick up another 580 or 590Super L 2.
General????
Welcome to the Heavy Equipment Forums BellBoy!.
Sound like me cept I'm a JCB fan,lol I'm 25 next month and also can't see it going away,it can be used year round and do any job around the site the only other machine that comes close to being a multitasker would be the skidsteer. Need a small hole dug for an addition on a house? equipment needed...... 1.Backhoe and operator 2.Mini Ex,Skidsteer,float trailer and truck to haul equipment 1-2 operators Lets not get into the operator wages,insurance,fuel,license plates and registrations,cost to maintain,tires etc etc I have to vote backhoe over the mini/skid combo anyday,but to each their own right? everyone has an opinion
Allis Chalmers backhoes I just have to comment on Bellboy's mention of the rare AC backhoe. I have only seen 2 in my travels of southeastern Ontario, both were disabled. I looked at one for sale near Algonquin park, in May last year. The bugs were so bad that I snapped a picture and ran back to the car, where my wife was cranking to get the windows up. Black flies, mosquitoes and deer flies as back-up, I have never seen all 3 work together, and it was noon and sunny. The other machine near Perth, was missing the transmission, someone had taken it to rebuild it, and couldn't get parts.What was it like running one of these? I understand they had a Perkins engine? Phil
Marray83 said something about the costs of operators and maintenance. Here in SA, we still have the 'cheap labour' issue, from the apartheid era, and contractors find it easier to employ this labour intensive method, as opposed to skidsteers and mini ex's
One of the first guys to have his say, said that TLBs have been replaced by telehandlers and mini exs. What about the Manihoe? Manitou was at our Royal Agricultural Show this year and i picked up a brochure for one of these, and it is a telehandler with a backhoe strapped to the back. Not in a bad way, but it's more like a TL+B. ie: teleloader + backhoe. The whole telehandler assembly is mounted along the centreline of the machine @ the front, with the engine and radiator at the sides, cab in between and backhoe on the back. The tele part only has one extending section, but still the lift height stands @ around 5.2 metres. I will post some pics as soon as i can (figure out how)
write up here is a 2007 write up in the farmers weekly here in the uk http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/2007/...s-manihoe-telehandlerdigger-plus-picture.html cheers graham
Thanks for that! i'm sure that all those issues will get sorted out on the next version of the machine. i'm assuming that it is a relatively new machine. :thumbsup