I'm in the planning stages for a job I'll hopefully be doing in the next month or two. It's an NRCS cost share job for one of my regular customers and will involve fencing, new well installation, and installation of 3 automatic cattle waterers and maybe a frost free hydrant or two. The area we'll be trenching is open pasture and fairly rolling ground but not super steep. I've got somewhere between 1800-2400' of water line to bury at a depth of 2 feet. Soil conditions can vary from loam, to heavy clay, to shale and can occasionally be rocky. The job is only 28mi away but with a truck and trailer takes almost an hour to get there, like most places around here. Trying to decided on what equipment to take to do the job as quickly and efficiently as possible. Hopefully I'll have at least one helper, but may be doing it by myself. I'll have my CTL on site for the fence building and leveling pads for the waterers, grading and backfilling. So the question comes down to should I take my Case 480E backhoe w/ 18" trenching bucket or Kubota U35-4 mini ex w/ 12" trenching bucket (or both?) I *think* the backhoe may be faster in open ground like this, but I'm also the only one that can run it. The mini ex my help can run so I could be working on other tasks. Or take both machines and knock it out twice as fast, but that may be extra hauling I don't need to do? Anyone have any direct comparison on relativly shallow trenching with a full size TLB vs 35 sized mini? Thanks in advance.
I think it would depend on how efficient you are at moving. Some guys need to drive the backhoe ahead, and some can just move themselves with the bucket. Is it an extend a hoe? There is always the longer reach factor. I worked with a guy that always preferred a backhoe unless you needed to load a truck, and he couldn't get beside you
Open ground like that and if you move yourself along with the hoe I would say a backhoe. It comes into play when you're backfilling. I can shove in and wheel walk the trench with the backhoe much faster than I could get any compaction with an excavator.
This is probably the quickest method:
I'd rent a chain trencher.
I would agree with terex herder on trencher. We used one to install some 3/4" poly pipe on the farm to supply water for the animals on pasture. Way faster than digging with a backhoe or mini.
Right now I’m leaning toward using the backhoe, if I have help I may go ahead and bring the mini ex and run both. I most definitely move myself along the trench with the hoe, once I start trenching I don’t turn the seat around till I’m done. The 480e has about 21 feet of reach and is not extendahoe, nor is it as fast or strong as a modern backhoe. As to the trencher, in the right conditions they can’t be beat. However, around here the conditions are seldom good. More often that not when I rent them I end up disappointed, either they don’t dig or end up broken. Also the little 4-6” wide trench is very difficult to backfill and compact properly.
For 2' a vibratory plow would do it easiest. Or a tile plow if that's easier to find.
We trenched in 5 miles of PVC solid set irrigation in the raspberries but as you say, the conditions have to be right, It was good dirt and stood up, but my dad cut down some hoes and we would clean and grade the trench as we set the pipe in. The method was run the hoe down the trench then lay it across the trench to hold the end of the pipe so you could glue that joint, and repeat.
Thought I’d update this with some data points in case anyone is looking at this in the future. Ended up using the Kubota u35 since it was already on site and it went surprisingly fast. Trenched 12” wide, 26-27” deep, 1400’ long in 6.5hrs. Ground conditions were average for this area, red clay and shale. Have a little more to trench once the well gets put in, but otherwise this job is done. I was pleased at how fast it went with the mini ex. Last similar job I did took 2 full days to trench 1800’ with a Kubota kx040 but we did have a large creek to cross and an one extremely steep hill to go up, both of which must have taken more time than I realized.
We installed a lot of counterpoise grounding and bonding systems around navigational sites over the years. Much of the groundwork was contracted out but a company I favored and would travel where needed preferred a large Takeuchi skid steer with a front mounted backhoe attachment. Trenches were always several hundred feet in length, wrapped around buildings, 30" below grade and typically 18" in width to allow working room. Into these trenches 12' ground rods would be driven to 24" below grade and 4/0 bare copper grounding cable, (mostly) would be affixed to the driven ground rods via "CadWeld" securement. Basically a thermite welding process utilizing a copper based material. Each connection was then metered for resistance value before trenches were pushed closed. The skid steers they had could be moved from the backhoe seat so the operator never had to move. They usually brought the skid steer, the backhoe, front bucket, and vibratory roller with them and it operated as a well oiled machine always leaving a clean worksite behind.
I can dig 46" deep, 200 feet long near level in 3 hours with a Case 580 Super N hoe. Recently, a customer had a "better way". He borrowed a 4 ton Kubota mini excavator. First he hurt his back, he couldn't run it. Then he had his friend lined up to do it, that plan fizzled. Ultimately, I ended up running it. I noticed quickly lack of reach. Mini was reaching 12? feet. Backhoe is near twice that. This job involved on a steep lawn, a hole 12' x 6' 5' deep. I found the mini was mostly digging out of sight. With more reach, I'd dig the bank between me & the hole back at a gentler grade. Short reach I had to be more nearly vertical to reach the required depth. Hole was too big to pile spoils one side of the hole. I had to move the excavator to move the spoil pile away from the hole. Second day, I brought my backhoe, I needed bedding sand for propane tank, propane piping & electrical conduit. I thought the 1.3 yard loader bucket would be handy. Propane tank hauler couldn't make the hill, so I set the tank. The mini couldn't handle the tank weight fully extended, & didn't have the needed reach. My 36" bucket moved four times the volume each scoop. Backfill was done with the hoe & I find it easier to do so with a 3' toothless bucket. I'll say it depends on backfill. This Kubota has a 6 way blade, quite handy for separating spoils from the grass it was piled on. In truth they made a good set of tools.
I was a little kid in 1960 when Route 7 was moved through Mount Tabor. It involved moving Otter Creek & draining a lot of swamp. I've no idea how they set the charges, or what they used for explosives. It was a chain explosion, about 1.3 miles were detonated simultaneously. Half the town were at McLellan's garage to watch! 10 seconds later, the creek was in a new location.
Dad used and told me all about ditching powder. It is hard to find documentation or decent pictures of it today. It was high content nitroglycerin, the kind that sweats when it gets old and makes for scary times. He would take a bag of sticks and a digging bar, and pace off along a ribbon marked route. Every 6' he stabbed the bar down and reamed out a hole, and stuffed in a stick. if there was a log or stump in the path, a stick went in from each side. It self propagated across that 6' no problem in wet ground. The explosion traveled at about 20,000 feet per second, so for the human eye you would have to be a long ways off to the side with a good view to see the travel.
A fair comparison to a full size TLB is an 8-ton excavator, a 3.5-4 ton machine will definitely be outclassed by a backhoe when digging deep, excavating large volumes or lifting heavy. In my case digging ~2' deep the mini ex was as fast or faster than my Case 480E. I keep it around for the bigger digging jobs and it makes a heck of a good loader tractor. I actually prefer loading trucks with it over either my skid steer or CTL.
Interesting choice of equipment, about what year was this? I ran a backhoe attachment on a Bobcat 753 years ago, it was no mini excavator but at the time it seemed like a good option. It wasn't super easy, but I could reach back behind me with my feet and push the sticks to move the machine back without getting off the backhoe seat.
I was physically on that project from mid 2015 to late 2017. This backhoe attachment had a little pushbutton on a joystick to move the machine. You pushed the button to engage the remote operation and the joystick would move the tractor just as sitting in the driver seat. You could drive it forward, reverse, or spin it around just as from the operator cabin. The operator never had to swing around or dismount at all. I've not seen another like it myself.
That is slick. The only iteration I operated was terribad, there was no moving that thing quickly.
I could not believe the cyclical rate the guy operating this thing maintained. Was very much "in tune" with this outfit but had been doing it a long time with field tile and septic work. The coupler was hydraulic and was operated from the cabin seat but that too was very quick and fluid. He would drop the backhoe attachement, connect hydraulic blade, and be closing the ditch within three minutes. Same thing switching from the blade to the vibraroller; about three minutes. I've been searching for photos but not found any yet.
mater, I’ve got a Headache just looking at that dynamite smoke. Thanks a lot!
I've dug plenty of ditch with a backhoe years ago, haven't sat in one for over 10 years, and don't care if I ever do again. On a 4' deep ditch, give me a 6 ton mini and I will dig right with any 580/590/420/310. No question. I'll work you backhoe guys over while you're dicking around with stabilizers and loader. No offense, but it's a fact. Keep the trench clear as you go, reach isn't as important as some think. Now, if we were talking 6' depth, I'd prob want an 8 ton.
A loader out front like on a tractor or a crawler loader is always better for loading trucks than a skid steer unless it's a really low sided truck.
I concur.
One of the best inventions ever for finding things buried in the ground. You know like wiring and plumbing you didn't know existed, someone's dog from several years past, a dozen or so bovine skeletal remains, (such as in my case) tires from many years ago and covered over, and miscellaneous items like that.....
No question, flat ground, shallow ditch, an 8 ton excavator can dig faster than an 8 ton backhoe. My experience with an 8 ton excavator is it is unpleasant on steep side hill. I felt I was always rocking around like a rubber duck in a bathtub. Up to a point A backhoe can self level. The 8 ton I speak of is the same age as my backhoe, bought used the same year as mine. I saw the sales document, cost nearly twice what my backhoe cost. Backhoe moves from place to place easily & I drive to jobs up to several miles.