As the title suggests, are any of our North American-based colleagues using additives in ULSD to restore the loss of lubrication caused by removing the sulphur from the fuel..? It looks as though we are going the ULSD route some time soon and I didn't want to have to re-invent the wheel. Our fuel supply company deals with Innospec additives. http://www.innospecinc.com/our-mark...formance-fuel-specialties/lubricity-improvers
I have a 70’s Deere w/4219 diesel and an 80’s Ford with CAT 3208. Neither gets a lot of run time (Friday sees less than 1,000mi/yr). Being older engines, I’ve been using Diesel Kleen. Hadn’t researched much prior to using it. I’ll be following to see what others use. Darryl
My dad has used the Diesel Kleen in his old big cam cummins. I would like to try the Best line diesel additives. Here is a comparison of the two:
ULSD usage superseded by ASTM numbering system XXXXX https://compass.astm.org/EDIT/html_annot.cgi?D975+18 Local off-road fleets are not using supplemental fuel additives. Cat Non-Tier to Tier 4 final engines, Detroit 60 series, Cummins BT series, N14s, John Deere, Kubota, Komatsu etc. If I want additional fuel lubricity > use B2 biodiesel. Red-dyed diesel off-road refined per ASTM 975-18 / 1.1.4 Grade No. 2-D S15—A general purpose, middle distillate fuel for use in diesel engine applications requiring a fuel with 15 ppm sulfur (maximum). It is especially suitable for use in applications with conditions of varying speed and load. If the OEM engine is spec'd for ASTM975; should not require supplemental fuel additives.
Stan, thanks for your reply. It appears as though a login & password is required to get into the ASTM website that you linked above. The proposed fuel is ULSD to meet the requirements of ASTM D975 2-D Grade S15 and specifically states "including lubricity" amongst a host of other specified performance factors. Can you get hold of a screen shot of that spec by any chance..?
Nige, ASTM doesn't have a spec for 'including lubricity' additives. Is your' email address from 5-6 year ago still active? I can send current ASTM975-18 pdf file.
Screen shot Still using 520 scuff spec for #1 and 2 Grade S15
8V149, Demo video is a U-tube con-job; that test fixture (Timken bearings) and video procedure > grinding fixture ball that will flatten out under an applied load. Power Service Diesel Kleen + Cetane Boost was approved by Cummins 2017 https://www.truckinginfo.com/140399/cummins-endorses-two-fuel-additives Also included in Study circa 2007 #10 on list (not improvement rating) http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/76.../177728-lubricity-additive-study-results.html
Thanks Stan. You have mail ..........
This discussion reminds me of a problem on two of our rigs with DD15's having used BD-2 fuel. I don't remember the specifics but when I get to work this morning I will look through the files on those two rigs. BD-2 is off limits on our trucks. And we use no additives, most everyone around here don't use additives. Truck Shop
Problem was with the injectors, gummed them up basically. Freightliner actually warrantied one set the others were shipped over night and cleaned and re-installed. Which was pricey but better than spending $980.00 bucks apiece for replacements. Truck Shop
In 250 gallon storage tanks for older ag equipment I dump a gallon of two cycle oil in before each refill. Use about a thousand gallons a year in three mid sized tractors. Have a drain to check for water on the low end. Use Killem for algae once a year. That is for my own stuff. Most people do nothing. I was looking for but cannot find the comparison sheet for additives. There are a lot of them. Then what are the concerns? Lubricity, gelling, algae, other. There are additives from companies like Schaefers that do all that in one. DPF and SCR compliant at the same time. I am thanking this new fuel does not keep nearly as well. See a lot of more problems with trash in the fuel problems lately. Also have been told it is legal to have low amounts of ethanol in diesel without labeling it. Just enough to break down residue in storage tanks over time. That is from the refiner to the distributor, then the retailer to us.
#7 two-stroke oil @ 200 to 1 http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/76.../177728-lubricity-additive-study-results.html
It would be interesting to see how much the oil lowered the cetane numbers. Bob
No special additives here. Summertime Minnesota has 20% bio, 5% wintertime. Only buy what you can use in a month or two and keep your tanks cool/covered, treat tanks with a biocide once a year in the summer for algae. The biggest thing is that the shelf life is short. We are seeing in occasional use or collector equipment that it gets gummy with breakdown. Ever see diesel evaporate? This new stuff dose with a couple days in the open.
You guys ever heard of a "WATER SLUG"?? I saw a dealer w/ a water hose in 1 of the underground diesel tanks..& asked him WTH he was doing?? He said raising the fuel off the bottom of the tank.. WHAT?? He said, by law, they're allowed "so much" water in an underground tank & he was "just" bringing that water table up.. This ULSD has been beat to death.. Theres a really good additive comparison on 1 of the diesel car/truck sites but I cant remember which one.. it ranks them all, or the ones that were available at the time of the study.. It boiled down to Schaffer was the "best".. in both Lubrisity & cetane boost.. Power Service was up there, along w/ Stanadyne & Lucas formulas.. They even tested 2 stoke & ATF.. ending up at the bottom of the chart.. Prob. because of its low cetane boost properties.
Here http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/76.../177728-lubricity-additive-study-results.html I think? Southwest Research Institute publicized a comparison study, can't remember, duh! F-Biodiesel. Biodiesel exist because of politics, i.e. gov subsiding soy-bean, rape-seed farmers using 'peak oil' as an argument. Engine manufactures played along so their 'fleet average fuel mileage' would improve. DoyleX, you're correct; only buy what you can use in 30-60 days and keep tanks covered-cool, biocide...short self life. ULSD: Europeans' EN590 spec's are more stringent versus US D975 Bored? Past and Future Diesel Spec's Ref: EU-non-road https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/eu/nonroad.php Ref: US-non-road https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/nonroad.php
Comments in no particular order. Shelf life of the fuel would not be an issue. We use about 35,000 gallons of diesel a day. Our tanks would probably keep us going for less than a week if supplies dried up for whatever reason. Biodiesel ditto. The proposal is for "full fat" petroleum-based fuel. Regarding lubricity (or any other) additives, these would be added by the fuel supply company which would be one or other of the major major oil companies. Therefore we would, I think, be limited to the additive companies they deal the supplier deals with rather than aftermarket additives such as Schaeffer, etc. The deal would not be through a third-party fuel supplier acting as the representative of an oil company. "Dealing with the engineer instead of the oily rag" as my boss sometimes refers to it. My thought in starting this thread was more to poll other users to see whether or not the use of a lubricity additive was common amongst those users who have been dealing with engines running ULSD for years now.
Nige, Oh, I am the process writing a replying to you emails. You've answered a few of my questions. As I've stated and few others in this thread, 'we do not use aftermarket fuel additives'. ULSD-S15-520micron max is additized @ refineries or thermals. Tanker trucked to jobsites, distributors or retail service stations. I do not know the actual lubricity spec, 520-460micron of delivered fuel. Less stringent US-spec 520micron-max wear diameter exist because of concerns that pipeline transfer residues (trailback) contaminating Jetfuels. (was a 2004 CARB emergency) Major oil companies' chem-engineers 'should know' if their products will provide normal expected service life for the equipment in your organization. If 'scare-gods' decide, 'we need additional lubricity protection', i.e lubricity additives. Innospec (Houston, Texas HD) is formulated for pipeline transfers. I would quarry the chem-engineers if they have available lubricity additive formulated for additizing @ their thermal ; possibly cheaper or requires less %-ppm per liter/gallon. One local distributor I deal with is now run by owner's daughter, son-in-law and office full of females; all members of the same church. If I want answers to specific question, I call the refinery tech support engineer. To my knowledge, local FLEETS do not use lubricity additives. We're paying a premium price @ close to or over $4.00 gallon for diesel... Back to email reply.
This may be a hair off the topic, but I use the Stanadyne "performance" additive in my old '98 Chevy 6.5L diesel. 16 ounces every 3rd fill up, it starts cleaner, idles so much smoother, and gets an extra 1.5 MPG using the stuff. At 220K miles I probably should have the injectors checked but hey... it just keeps running.
Another thing that gets me twitchy is that fuel supply contracts are put out to tender and negotiated by the "Supply Chain" (i.e. Warehouse) people, and I am pretty certain they would have no idea what the detailed tech spec should be other than it has to be ULSD #2 diesel fuel.
Nige, for your viewing entertainment $40,000.00 HFRR TESTER set-up by the 'only' tester manufacture PCS Instruments / UK Also req'd 100X digital camera, certified supply of Timken 52100 ball bearings etc, etc. Total cost to set up would pay for lots of Intertek HFRR tests. Force Calibration Stroke Calibration MTM2 Wear Transducer @ 75 minutes per test X 2 = 2.5hrs + set up time 1/2hr = 3hrs
Here there is No difference Red Dyed fuel and clear fuel other than dye. Comes out of the same supply line, same truck and same sectioned tank of the truck only to have red off road only dye added at point of delivery[. Been running ULSD for close to five years in All my machines, know the local grade contractor has as well, no additives beyond Power Service or Diesel Kleen in their tanks. That just to improve cloud point in cold weather.
Just as long as you're buying motor fuel. The Number 2 fuel oil has been thrown about as "just like" diesel for years. Bet , it doesn't have the lubricity additives required.
Calif Guinea Pigs 2002-2004 Testing exhaust particle muffles with CARB diesel S500 and ULSD S15. NO diesel fuel engine related failures. 1 657E 3408 rear engine experienced 'injector varnish sticking etc'; caused by using Recycled 15-40 engine oil. Vanishing problem existed before the scraper was fitting with PM mufflers prior to the testing. Scraper owned-operated by Los Angles County Sanitation District. 657Bs and 657Es used for testing required TWO PM mufflers. Prior to installing PM mufflers on the scrapers, two engines (same type) were dyno tested at the local Cat dealer (Shepard-Quinn). Concern about excessive exhaust back pressure was the issue being investigated. A lose 3408 from Sukut Construction was sent to West Virginia University for emissions testing to establish a baseline; fuel economy, oil consumption, particle matter etc. Main Issue: Increased exhaust back pressure was found to be caused by the internal PM guts vibrating apart and slipping out of position! ULSD S15 diesel improved engine oil soot load compared to baseline CARB S500 diesel fuel. Copy and Paste The six LACSD vehicles were 1996 vintage 657E scrapers and 2000 vintage D9 dozers (one of the dozers was a 1996 model. The operators fueled the study vehicles with ultra-low-sulfur diesel (ULSD) from BP-Arco. LACSD also operated four “control” vehicles (i.e., standard vehicles without traps installed) throughout the test period: two 657E scrapers and two D9 dozers. One scraper and one dozer operated on CARB diesel fuel; the remaining scraper and dozer operated on ULSD. The primary purpose of this control fleet was to establish a baseline for fuel economy, oil consumption, and reliability performance against which the vehicles fitted with traps could be compared. The six Poss study vehicles were manufactured between 1971 and 1983 and consisted of three Caterpillar 651B scrapers and three Caterpillar 824/825/834 series dozers. Poss did not operate any “control” vehicles due to limited equipment availability. Condition of The Engines All of the engines used were in good condition and maintained according to Caterpillar service guidelines. All the Poss engines were certified rebuilt within the last three years, and checked to assure they met performance specifications. All of the LACSD 657E scraper engines were 1996 vintage. The one mechanical D9 bulldozer #6621 was 1998 vintage, and the two electronic D9 bulldozers were 2000 vintage.
I’d like to thank everyone who contributed. I now know a lot more about ULSD than I did before, and particularly what to look for in the analysis of the fuel. After all that I’ve come to the conclusion that if we actually receive what the fuel companies are promising to supply we should be fine. Just have to put some checks in place to make sure that happens.
Yes Sir, your conclusions are spot-on. Cat patents; improving material coatings for internal parts, to help extend service life. If you follow prior patents, Cat (like other OEMs) have been busy improving engine components to survive ULSD (and biodiesel mixtures) @ increasing operating pressures. https://patents.google.com/patent/US7942343B2/en Using 'recycled engine oil', crazy penny pinching. Local contractor's 3408, 3412s HEUI engines not only used 'recycled engine oil' but also filtered used engine oil blended into the diesel fuel supply tanks. High engine failure rates primarily caused by injector ( injector nozzle deposits) and IDID ( internal diesel injector deposits ). HEUIs don't like abuse! UC Riverside site testing emissions for gas-pm $4,560.00 per day plus staff costs.
Have had experimental machines across MO issued by CAT and DEERE to test differing levels of emissions devices, Tier 4 is now a new machine mandate but the machines are not selling where the old machines are being rebuilt. Some of the test machines failed to produce or required maintenance to excess values they would simply park them. Local contractor has a CAT rep mechanic basically on staff for the Tier 4 units, a DPF or a DEF failure or a control de-rate and he HAS to be on that machine quickly to keep them from losing the account. At the Nuke I worked we had two older Colt Pielstick v14 Emergency Backup diesel standby generators sold and serviced by Fairbanks in the 70's, these engines required the higher lubricity and fuel BTU values of the old High Sulphur Diesel where the suppliers would sell the company that specific fuel. The Loss of BTU was a large part of the equation where these generators had to come up to speed and step into loads within a limited time frame, they also had to carry 6mw electrical load for a full 24 hours and a reduced 3mw load for 28 days, the fuel consumption rate at lower BTU removed the ability to meet the High load(reduced the capability to 5.8mw) and removed the ability to carry the 28 days due to not enough fuel on hand(100,000 gal. underground per each engine). Fuel rate on the ULSD increased consumption by an estimated 12%, as well the servicer would not sign off as to the fuel system remaining reliable with ULSD to complete a emergency operation mode.