Check this out, I saw it driving down the highway yesterday in Wisconsin...I know about the the small Wacker equipment and I have seen their excavators but never seen one of these. Do you think these are coming to the US??? Anyone know anything?
Looks like its here already I would imagine since everyone else has a CTL they are either re-badging another manufacturers machine or making theirs from scratch, hard to tell doin 80 down the highway...
Wacker makes mini ex's and small articulated loaders, gehls rebadges Wacker equipment. From the angle it does not look like a straight rebadge to me. If they can build a full line of mini ex, they should be able to build a track machine.
Its their own ground up machine.
You got to see something that not many got to see yet. I talked to one of the reps at ICUEE in Louisville Ky on October 1 and he told me that they were having a big meeting in Wisconsin this week to unvaile the new skidsteer loader. At that point he had not even seen a pic of it yet and was being kept under wraps. They knew it was coming out but didnt even have any specs on it for them yet.
I was at the unveiling this week and have been involved with the project for some time. Its well designed machine.
Shane...Would you give up your Case machine for a Wacker in its place? I'm curious to learn more about them once they put them up on their website.
The machines they are releasing first are the large frame 75 hp, they will release the 100 hp (or so) machines later. When those hit the ground i will be ready for a new 3k +ROC wheeled machine. We will see at that time if their machine fits what i need. However based on what i see so far, i would own one without hesitation. Many of the components are similiar to what i run, Engine is the same 3.4, the drive motors on ctl are same, pumps are same of course configuration i am sure is different. The controls are pilot, and still being tweaked but i thought the feel was real good, just some small improvements i thought could be made in response, but then i have been running E/H and so i am used to minimal joystick input.
I'm looking forward to seeing them when they launch. It's always interesting when new iron comes out. It'll be interesting to see how they do. I think that they will struggle, at least early on similarly to JCB- very small/poor dealer network, questionable resale at this point, etc. I think my closest Wacker dealer is about 30 miles and they are also the JD and Bobcat dealer. Hard to see them really pushing the skids and CTLs. Unless of course, they can figure something out that JCB hasn't been able to do yet in their long run in the US so far.
I think it's very hard to compare anything to the JCB, even though its a skid steer, it is soooo different with the one sided loader arm. I like the idea of the side entrance, but it's awfully hard to sell an old school operator on that idea that the arm won't tweak. I have a Volvo dealer near me and they sell the Volvo skids (JCBs) and I have yet to see one on a job.
Well as for tweeking, our 185 JCB has snapped one of the rear boom pins twice. Then again we have guys who you could put in a padded cell naked with bowling ball and five minutes later let them out to find the ball in tiny pieces. The side entrance is nice at least from a safety stand point, too many dummies will climb in and out under a raised boom. Problem is that big boom to the right causes a major safety problem of a blind spot. Win some, loose some.
I'm not really talking about the Robot in particular, but more about JCB's long presence in the North American market without much traction. They have the global market share lead in backhoes, but barely have a blip in market share here. I think this is directly associated with not having a strong dealer network focused on their product as the primary revenue generator. I see much the same thing happening with the Wacker product in general. They have many dealers and sub good products, especially hand held, but the majority of their dealers already have prime lines such as Bobcat, Kubota, Deere, CNH, etc. overcoming that resistance will be extremely difficult for them just as it has been for JCB, a very successful company with lots of money to throw at the challenge.
From my experience the JCB skidsteers are junk. A paper mill I deal with bought a 260 I believe to replace a 5 year old bobcat S175 because the bobcat broke too much. The mill snapped an axle on the JCB one hour after delivery. It had two boom arms in under six months. The pin for the base end of the tilt cyclinder broke almost daily. The JCB tech was on site minimum 4 days a week. In under one year it had $60,000 worth of warranty work. They ended up transferring to another mill, kept their old S175 and bought a S630. In a 1,000 hrs, the S630 has been flawless.
We have only had experience with one at our shop. Ours was a 185 with 238.8 hours on it when we got it in Jan of 02. Aug. of 02 wiring shorted out behind cab requiring all new harness. No warranty for what was obviously an improper installed harness. After getting back from dealer "I" installed a holdown on harness to prevent it from rubbing on the frame behind cab where the original had shorted out. It's now 2013, 11 years later and no new melt downs of wiring. As I recall there was even a hole in frame next to harness for the clamp I installed. We have a Case 1845C, 1989 vintage that this JCB was to replace, note I said we still have this Case? 11 years after it was to be retired! Case does break a chain now and then and has a problem these days blowing fuses on start up but if the two are sitting next to each other it would be rare for the JCB to be the first choice to be used. I would love to be able to convince management to let me do a ground up rebuild on the Case. But then I would hate to let an operator run it, might scratch the paint.
I don't disagree that WN has some challenges ahead to make this project a success. The first priority is to put out the best performing product that they can. I think WN will do that. Will it be perfect, no, but it already is very competent, and the fine tuning left to do will only build upon that. These machines will be able to go head to head with anything in their class and be very productive. It will not have the electronic wizardry that the D series has but, it will be a solid, productive machine, much like TK and Kubota in that sense. I talked with a lot dealers during the unveiling, I was tasked with demoing the machine and then answering questions after the dealers had run it. Your right Digdeep in that many already carry something else. ASV, Deere and CNH seemed to be majority of the makes that were carried by the ones I spoke with. They all had their reasons for looking for alternatives and options. The stores carrying ASV would like a CTL for applications not suitable for the suspended undercarriage and for those stores it makes total sense. The WN dealers and their customers have been asking for a skid steer/CTL for sometime. This product is a result of that request. The fact that many of their dealers carry something else, I don't think is that big of deal (although there are plenty of other challenges). Many of these dealers like and want to do business with WN, that was very apparent during the unveiling. There is no doubt that WN has built a loyal following among their dealers and that will help move machines.
Outside of Milwaukee JCB didn';t have much support. Ritchies was about it, but they are building a new store next to Bobcat Madison which should help them some. There are a few farmers running their robots. A lot of people like there telehandlers, the ones I have ran I couldn't say much bad about but I don't spend enough time in telehandlers to be a good critic anyways. Outside of those two the only experience we have with JCB is with the Fastrac. What has hurt them with the Fastrac is again dealer support and the fact its almost too purpose built. Most people in WI have switched to Fendt because they have phenomenal support and probably the lowest failure rate in the industry. They are also much more well rounded. The Fastrac was designed to go fast, many people soon realized that extra 10mph wasn't worth having a tractor that was a pain for everything else. 34mph in a Fendt was plenty for most people since not many US implements are rated for high speeds anyways and there are some special operators out there that can compound issues at 42mph. The Fastrac's have had their share of gremlins that aggravated people too. This seems to happen with JCB. They use a lot of good off the shelf components generally but tying them all together is where the issues seem to come from. I honestly didn't even know where the Wacker dealer was, we have a Wacker light tower but thats it. If WN is like any other German equipment OEM, they will have their machine figured out well before it is released. I agree that the market for the WN may be the stripped down get **** done market that Tak has been dominating along with Kubota trying to get a piece. If they come in with another 80k CTL like Cat or Bobcat its going to be tough. Cat and Bobcat will see no matter what because of the name, if WN builds a good CTL and gets a half way decent dealer network they could push themselves to the top of the smaller company offerings like Kubota, JCB, Mustang etc etc.
Well...you can count me as someone that wants to see what they've come up with. I don't wish failure on any OEM, and I'd like to see the product do well, but I still think it will be an uphill climb for them.
http://www.constructionequipment.com/wacker-neuson-launch-skid-tracked-loader-line
Me too, I am far from brand specific. I change brands often. 10 Years ago I wanted all nice new Case IH tractors and combines. Then I drove a Fendt. I was sold on Fendt and I am still sold on Fendt tractors to this day and they are our tractor of choice. very nice. Claas has been my forage harvester preference for many years. However now that Fendt has entered that market I have re-evaluated my opinion. I would try the Fendt in a heartbeat and if I liked it better and service was good I would vote for the Fendt. I used to be diehard Volvo for wheel loaders and honestly if their service and support was even 50% of what Cat's is I would still cheer for them, but it isn't so Cat gets my vote now. 2 years ago I would've told you I wanted all old LS170 skid steers, today I'm all Cat on SSL's and it was nothing more than their service and support that initially convinced me to give them the time of day. I love the Duramax engine but honestly Ford and Ram have been ahead of the game interior wise. Aside from being partial to German products, I am not very brand specific. I like finding the machine that suits its job the best. I am not a fan of a "universal" machine so to speak. Its like a multi tool IMO, jack of all trades master of none. However I do like machines that can excel in more areas than others such as the Fendt tractors. They are the jack of all trades masters of everything.
Anyone had any experience with these yet? I saw some on the dealer lot but haven't stopped by yet. From the road, they are a great looking machine.
They are a great looking machine (especially the vertical lift machine). They are very well built. I think they will be well received. The next machines will be the smaller ones. They will absolutely take on the best of what the industry is currently offering. After those will be the 100 hp machines which is what I am waiting for.
I'm not sure how I feel about them. I played with one at a dealer not long ago. To look at them, they remind me of a large version of a generic skid steer toy you'd buy for a child. Time will tell I guess. It could be a Kubota from the 70's where no one knew they'd still be running 40 years later and just bad mouthed them, or they could be an early 2000s deere skid steer.
I really think they're going to struggle. A lot of their small product already goes through Cat rental stores and some of their compact is sold through other OEM dealerships such as Case and NH dealers. Not sure how big of an independent stand alone dealer network they have or if they can compete price wise in the rental channel with Bobcat, Kubota, Takeuchi or Deere. I've seen the machines recently and would rank the JCB as having a nicer cab and a stronger brand and more mature dealer network, yet JCB still struggles mightily. These factors are all independent of how the machine operates. It is a very crowded market and will be even more so this Spring when Kubota launches their two vertical lift path SSLs in the 1800lb and 2600lb class. I'm sure they will be capable machines at the typical low price that Kubota sells at.
I think those are separate discussions. The quality and innovation in the machine will be there (that is the first discussion). The impact they have in the market will take time to mature, there is no doubt about that. I think it will follow Takeuchi's entry and success in the market, the machines will first need to establish a strong reputation for durability and capability and the rest will develop out of that reputation, that does not occur overnight but it will occur if the machines deliver (which I think they will). Given WN strong presence in the rental market, their SSL/CTLs will enter the rental market and that will be most guys first contact with them and hopefully it will grow from there. I ran one for about a month this Spring it was a 75hp radial CTL.
ksss...I agree. My comments had nothing to do with how they perform. I still think that they will have difficulty breaking into the rental channel primarily due to pricing. Bobcat and the other larger OEMs aren't going to give up their rental volume easily (and the market share) and they have much larger economies of scale that allow them to sell to the rental companies inexpensively so Wacker will have to essentially give the machines away if they want any real rental penetration particularly with the larger rental chains like United, Sunbelt, Hertz, etc.
Saw a brand new one with a Kohler Diesel, anyone know anything AT ALL about a Tier 4 Kohler Diesel????
I don't really know much about the Kohler diesels. I do know that they are Lombardini diesel engines, as Kohler bought out Lombardini a few years ago to get into the small diesel engine market. The Lombardini diesels I have used back in the 80's, were loud, vibrated a lot, and smoked like a chimney, but seemed to run forever with few problems and used very little fuel.
I have yet to see one on a job site.
These guys sell them in SW WI (or at least did last I recall). If anyone was interested, they could call and talk to the parts guys and see how they've been holding up. They used to be Deere dealers and have sold other equipment so they should have a pretty good handle on what 'good' is. I doubt they're going to cut their own product down. From what I saw they DO look like good machines. http://www.muellerrental.com/equipment/new-used/gravely-corner/
I have not run the recently released midframe machines. They have been very well received by dealers I have heard. These machines were designed and built in the US by the same guys that have designed and built some of the most popular skid steers on the planet. They will be competitive with any machine in their class, that you can be certain. The Kohler engine has some big advantages. The fact that they have a 4k hour warranty says a lot about what Kohler thinks of their engines. As to seeing them on the job sites, like I said, this is going to take time to establish their reputation in the market. If the machines perform well (that I have no concerns about), they stand behind the machines they build (I know they will), and can provide adequate dealer support (that remains to be seen in my opinion) they will see success in the NA market. They are coming into the market at a great time, economy is growing, SSL's and CTL's are selling, that should help their cause.
I looked at them at con expo they seem to be plain and simple easy to work on . nice clean routing of interior hyd line and wiring
My dealer here has the CTL's. He said that the SSL's are on the way. He said that they are already back-ordered because the plant cannot keep up with orders so that says someone is interested. I sat in the cab of the track loader and it is the roomiest cab I have ever been in....AND this is on a smaller sized CTL. I have not had a chance to operate it but have seen a few out on rent around here.
I have a long term project that I needed a small SSL for and tried to get a WN and I couldn't (in a short time frame). The machines currently coming off the line are all spoken for.
The local Case IH house is a WN dealer because the construction outfit has the skid steer line. I'd sure be interested to hear more about them as some of you guys get some time in them.
I've seen the WN CTLs on job sites quite a bit over the last year in my neck of the woods. I've looked them over and I'll say they look like we'll built machines with very roomy cabs. One of the largest residential grading outfits out my way has taken on the WN line and must like them as they've become a dealer. They were running bobcat and takeucki with the odd Terex mixed in there. I spoke with one of the guys who's been running a large WN ctl and he seemed to have nothing bad to say. I will say that if the outfit that I see running them has good things to say about them then they must be a reliable and tough machine. Those guys put a bazzion hours on their machines every year running them at least 8 hours a day 6-7 days a week digging in tough Manitoba gumbo which is the heaviest, stickiest clay around. Only time will tell if they can gain more market share.
I rented an ST28 last week and was extremely impressed. Seemed to have quiet a bit more power than the T550 on our site. Wasn't sure if I'd like the no lap-bar feature at first, but ended up really warming up to it as it helps open up additional cab space.