Can somebody please give me some advice here. We have a John Deere 410 C. The engine is a 4276 Turbo. I just replace the oil filter and oil, and antifreeze. I checked the oil this morning and it's a little milky white. I checked the coolant in the radiator and it's about the same level. Can someone help me start to diagnose this problem.I was wondering if block sealer will work, and if so what brand should I get. Thanks
Dropped the oil pan took cap off radiator. No water dripping from anywhere I can see. Do I try to pressurise the radiator? How is the best way and how much pressure should I keep it under? Shawn
You can safely put 20 p.s.i. in water system. Leave oil pan off. The water is most likely coming through liner o-rings knowing the history of that engine. Could be the head gasket or oil cooler as well. This is of course after comfirnming there is no way for external water like from rain or flood is entering engine somewhere.
Ok, I pressurized the radiator to 15 lbs. Absolutely no water coming from anywhere. I am starting to wonder if this is a condensation issue. After about four hours, there was still grayish oil dripping out of every bearing. I wiped out the oil pan and it was extremely clean, no residue of any kind. Put the pan back on replaced oil and filter and started and ran for one hour. Before I started the engine, I checked the level in the radiator. Checked the oil and it is very slightly lighter then before I put it in. Im sure there was a little old (white) oil residue left in the engine, so that probably mixed with the new oil and made it slightly lighter in color.After the engine cooled I checked the level in radiator and there was none missing. I am at a loss here. Does anyone have any suggestions. I just replaced a extremely worn out turbo, could this have contaminated the oil in any way? Should I just change the oil a few times to get all the old oil out of engine oil pasageways? Is there another way to fludh the oil system? I still have no clue where all this contamination came from. The guy I bought the machine off of was a homeowner that used the machine to build his house, then it was used just to remove snow from driveway in winter, but we had no snow. So the machine sat unused more often then not. Any suggestions on what to do next Thanks for everyones help
Do you have any traces of oil in the radiator..? Even the slightest amount..? If the answer is no then I suggest you run the engine and get it up to full operating temperature (get it really hot - no half measures), then drain the oil. Change the oil and filter and see how you go from there. It might also be advisable to pull the valve cover and clean the inside of it thoroughly and at the same time clean the engine crankcase breather system.
When I look in the radiator the coolant is green,the color of the antifreeze, (WITH ONE EXCEPTION). A week ago (after the machine sat for a week),I opened the radiator and there was this black cruddy looking stuff pn the top two inches of the radiator fluid. I should have skimmed it from the top, but I didn't. Should I pressure test the oil cooler? Reylocs
In my opinion you have coolant in your oil and also oil in your coolant. That would indicate a transfer of fluids in both directions. Usually when the engine is running the oil pressure is higher than cooling system pressure and so oil transfers to the cooling system. When a hot engine is stopped the pressure in the hot cooling system will cause coolant to pass into the oil system. So forget what I said above about changing oil & filter, you have a problem that needs fixing before you go any further. If you haven't already done so I would suggest that you pressure test the cooler. I'm not familiar enough with your engine to know anywhere else where you might get transfer of oil to coolant & vice versa. Maybe someone else has some ideas.
How much pressure do I not exceed. I would assume there is a water side and an oil side. Thanks for your help. Also, is the water that cools the oil from the radiator? I ask because I am not loosing rad. water, if so only unmeasurable amounts. How much water does it take to turn 2.5 gallons of oil slightly white. (I realize there is no exact answer to that). Thanks again
If you pressurize it from the oil side you could easily go up to 75psi or even more, because that's what the oil pressure could well be when the engine is running. Start with 50psi to be on the safe side maybe. Usually the same coolant in engine cooling system also runs through the oil cooler. As to how much coolant will turn the oil pan contents white - a lot less than you might think. It would surprise me if you noticed any lowering of the coolant level to be honest.
BAD NEWS. There is no engine oil cooler on my machine. There is a transaxle and transmission cooler but no engine oil cooler. AND there is a 1/4 inch loss in fluid in the radiator. So now what are my choices? Can I use block sealer? If so can someone recommend a brand and the process. Or just follow instructions on bottle
Here is a thought. I have experienced this on inboard boats with fresh water cooling. When the engine is running water coats all surfaces of the engine water chambers and passage ways. When the engine is not running the water settles down just a little and may not touch the ceiling or upper most parts of some of those passageways. If you did a radiator pressure test and only looked for water leaks and the leak is on the top side of a passageway you might not see any water. Do a pressure test at 15lbs or at a safe pressure and use a 25 or 30 lb gauge. Leave the test on overnight and see if the pressure stays up. If not and no water on the floor, (pan off) you may be able to figure out where it is.
The engine oil cooler should be mounted on the side of the engine block. Sure sounds like to me that there is an issue with the cooler.
The John Deere online parts book shows it to look like this.
Going back to my engineering days working in the titanium industry we made heat exchangers of all sizes, many with the same configuration as in the diagram. It looks like the water flow is through the inside of the tube bundle #10 with the top having a gasket and the bottom a O-ring(s). Oil would be on the outside of the bundle and it looks like the unit is connected directly to the engine block, no oil hoses. From working on these I would say there are three places to look for leaks. Top gasket, tube to flange both top and bottom, (these can be rolled or welded tube ends) and the bottom O-Ring(s). A fourth possibility and least suspect would be a corroded tube. If it is leaking and you take it apart you may never find the leak if it is an O-Ring or gasket. I would isolate it and do a pressure test on it first. Once you remove the tube bundle #10 there is not much to see as it would be hard to tell if the tube to flange was leaking and there is no way to do a pressure test out of the housing. My guess is one of the O-Rings, just saying!
I took the cooler apart today and the cooler was so dirty inside. I actually found twigs in there and lots of old rtv silicone particles( probably from like a oil pan where someone used silicone to install the pan gasket and some that oozed in the crankcase brook off and lodged on the oil cooler) Anyway its clean now. I will try to pressure test tomorrow. ActuAlly you cAn do A pressure test on eAch individuAl tube in A bucket of wAter, by blockong one end of the tube and adding air to the other end again in water.
That will only test the tube, not the joint to the flanges where it is either rolled, (expanded) or welded to the flange. Other than the gasket and O-rings that is where most heat exchangers leak.
Yes your correct. Shawn
If it were mine and I found that much garbage in the oil section of the cooler I would be taking the oil pan off and checking the engine oil pump screen. It may be a disaster about to happen.
Further up in the post I replied where I done that. But what I didn't say was that the oil screen pick up was aBsolutely clean also. plus the oil pan did not have any silicone on it so it may have come from a previous oil pan change or something else.
When you say the cooler was dirty inside, was it on the water side, (shell side) which I would think it would be or the oil side, (inside the tubes). I can't imagine having twigs on the oil side as it should be the same as the pan oil.
Got all the gaskets and O rings this morning. Put it all back together and it works just fine. Yes all the junk was on the water side. Total cost 23 bucks. Thanks for everyones help Shawn
After running the engine for two hours I checked the oil and we have water in the oil again. So today I did a pressure check on the coolant system. Because I didnt have the correct cap for the radiator, I eliminated the radiator and put 20 lbs of pressure on the engine. The engine held pressure for 6 hrs. Could this be happeneng only when the engine is running and hot? Also, it just rained here for 4 straight days, could rain be getting into the engine somehow? What else should I check? Thanks
If it had a fair amount of water in the oil your gonna have to change it several times to get the engine clean. When you had the pan off and pressure checked it the engine block was cold, when they heat up sometimes thats when these little leaks decide to open up. From what I've read you have two options : replace cylinder sleeve O ring and head gasket or put in Bars stop leak and run it. Pull the valve cover and see if there is a lot of white oilly stuff in there. If it has several hours on it , I'd pull the valve cover and check for moisture and clean it out , drop the pan and clean all that real well. Put in a cheap oil run it an hour or so , change it to a good oil put the Bars stop leak in run it like 4 hours to allow the sealer to work. And run it for 20 hours or so and keep an eye on it. If the problem persists its time to take it down.
I assume it must be something happening when the engine gets hot. if I choose to use a sealer, should I use a radiator sealer or a block sealer? I asked that question because I'm not sure how block sealer works ugh with the o'rings at the bottom of the cylinder sleeves.
It seems to be a very small amount of water and I just don't know how to tell where Is comIng from. I have had pressure in the cylinder block for 8 hours now. I put 20 pounds in it and it has lost 1 pound in 8 hours. I just cannot tell where this weekend. Does anyone have any more suggestions as to how to troubleshoot this? Thanks
Can I bypass the engine oil Cooler and run the machine for a day without doing any harm. To eliminaTe if iT's The cooler or noT.
I would move pistons into different positions more enlikely pin hole in liner and piston is covering it. Pull motor over by hand.
It takes a small amount of water to milk the oil. From the way it sounds , I'd put it together and use the Bars stop leak. Just be prepared to change that oil 3 to 5 times to clean out the engine. I know IH in Louisville would put stop leak in tractors when the filled them with coolant before shipping out. ( you wouldn't believe what else). If the problem persists after this then we know what to do, Remove & rebuild. One other thing you may do , retorque the head . Follow procedure in the manuel. Some do it warm so don't but they all have a pattern. This tractor is early 80's?
I agree with JWJDM. Before junking the cooling system up with anything find the leak as it could produce more problems just when you don't need them. I would also make up a test radiator cap so you can test it hot. You may not have a leak when cold.
Stop leak is temporary fix and does more damage in long term. If you are keeping machine need to fix if you are selling machine go with stop leak.
If one can of stop leak don't do it put in another one and run the living shiot out of it.
Pull the pistons and check liners. Electrolisys (spellinmg?) has ate into liners and o-rings. This is the answer for me on JD engines every time. You already had enough time to rebuild engine with new piston/liner kits by now and would have been done with it.
Today I noticed pure water dripping from breather line. I decided to remove valve cover and there is this greasy white stuff coating the top of valve cover. The cheesy looking stuff is an inch thick. Where is all this coming from. The engine held 15 pounds of air pressure all nighT long. How do I clean all tHe stuff out of my engine? Just changing the oil isn't going to do it how do I clean it out. . EvEry timE I changE thE oil it gEts whitE again. I'm sure it's from all this cheesy stuff in the engine. The cooler was leaking and I fix ThaT maybe my problem is solved. And I just hAve to cleAn out all this gunk. I really need some advice with this 1. And thAnks for everyone's help so fAr.
Remove oil pan and get a air suction nozzle . Get 10 gallons of diesel . If this doesn't cut it at first get about 10 cans of carb cleaner then go with the diesel. When it gets clean take an oiler and oil the top end of the engine. You will have to look and make sure the cam and followers are clean then go under and look in the crank case probably blow it out with the fuel also. A little water causes a lot of cheese. I'd lay money on the cooler myself especially since you said the seals looked bad. Don't be afraid to put a can of Bars stop leak in it either, if it would ruin your engine you can sue them. If it were a brand new build then maybe not. That stuff lubricates pump seals and will remove negative corrosives. Sounds like you got this one by the sac now.
Why would there be water dripping out the breather? It seems like its condensation. As to the amount dripping, after about 15 min. There was about 30 or so drops. That seems like a lot. Why is all this water dripping out the breather? Thanks
Are you running a heater then turning it off for the night?
No I have never run the heater. Block or cab.
Could the thermostat be not working and allowing the engine to run too cold making condensation?
Ive been up all night reading about this mayonaise looking stuff that is in my engine. Some say it cound be from blowby in the cylinders. (We have a turbo on this engine.) Some say it could be a blown head gasket. Im feeling quite bad about what it could be, and how long the previous owner probably ran it with water in the oil. I can do the rebuild myself if I have too. The machine is old and I worty what will be next. The only positive is I can do mechanics stuff myself, its the troubleshooting im poor at thanks to everyone here. Would a compression test be the next thing to maybe try? Thanks again
G'day Reylocks, I have diagnosed and repaired the same problem in JD tractor engines in the past that had the same symptoms you mention and as JWJDM and JeramiahSR previously suggested it has been pinholes in the liners caused by cavitation errosion usually 1/3 to 1/2 way down on the thrust side of the liner usually caused by lack of use of corrosion inhibitor in the cooling system at some stage of the engines life, it may be hard to detect with a pressure test as the pistons or rings can cover the pin hole at rest, my advice is to pull down the engine and pull the liners as previously suggested, I would almost guarantee you will find a hole. The reason you are seeing water drip out of the breather is that when the engine is running and everything is warm the oil absorbs the water to saturation point then when left to cool down the water condenses out of the oil and drips. bite the bullet and do what you know ya got to do. Cheers
Thank you. Its coming apart today. My concerns are, with the cam and lifters. How far should I go with a rebuild? I know I need to fix whats bad. Should I just put in pistons sleeves and bearings and put it back together? Thanks
Just throwing this out there due to experiance......the front engine cover where the water pump is mounted... John Deere uses there white silacone sealant to keep the cooling system fluild from entering the crankcase thru the front cover.. I have had the same issues in the past and fianlly some one told me about the front cover and i removed it and in fact did find the bead was broken.. cleaned and resealed no more water in oil....just sayin...good luck
How many hours has it done? on the ones I have repaired that have done less than 6000 hrs the cams have been fine, when you pull it down check the cam lobes from below the sump if you don't know what you are looking for I would suggest you find a local mechanic as you will need to check bearing clearances, liner protrusions etc when you re-assemble the engine. To save on frustration get someone who knows what they are doing and have it done once and right. Cheers
The hour meTer shows 2950. Took The whole engine apart today. Removed the lineRs and the top o ring was wasted on every cylinder. The back cylinder I believe was The 1 ThaT was leaking, all 3 o rings were badly deteriorated. The rod bearings were really worn. The journals on The crank look absoluTely perfecT. The only problem I noTiced was ThaT 1 of The journals had a slighT blueing on either side of the journal. The camshafT and followers look fine. Ordered a clevite sleeve kit today, it will be here Monday. Of cOurse they're calling fOr 4 days Of rain since I'm dOing this Outside. I know I will need some advice on the fuel injection system when I get that far after I put it back together. Thanks for everyone's help
Would pay to check the rod out of the cylinder with the blued journal as it may be bent or cranked especially if it was the cylinder that the water was getting in, it may have hydraulicaly locked at some stage. cheers
Ive been reading up on the amount of protrusion of the liners. I have a good magnetic dial indicator I use to setup my milling machine. For the rods and mains I will use plasti-gage.
A good, clean engine block, A set fo feeler guages and a Machinest streight edge it all that you need. You can check the liner protrution on all four liners this way in the amount of time it takes to set up the dial indicator. Check them at 12 o clock and 6 o clock then 3 and 9 . Good luck.
Ok I will do that. I thought the dial indicator would take some time and be a pain. Can someone tell me how to lubricate and install the liners.
I figured it was the o-rings. Usually is on these engines. The blueing on the crankshaft is probally normal. From when they originally ground the crank. If the bearing joournals look good you should have nothing to worry about. Oil pressure was never your problem. After you install o-rings on liners make sure they are not twisting or rolled around. This little bit of twist makes some hard spots and some thin spots around it's sealing area. Lube with a little oil or grease and push them in place. After pushing with hand as far as you can take a clean 2x4 and a hammer and finish setting them into block. The proper way is to press liners but these go in relatively easily. After you get your pistons in and installing oil pump.....if your engine has balance shafts triple check their timing before moving further.
Use good old fashon Dawn dish soap on the liner seals( o rings) and the counter bores. Dont be afraid to just dump the soap on and push them in. Some times you need a rubber mallet to get them in. after you have the liner in, take an old piston and push it through the liner and make shure that it will go all of the way through. If it wont go all of the way you need to remove the liner and find the o ring that rolled and replace it then re install it
I was only putting in new bearings,liners and pistons. There is a tractor rebuilding place (Keystone Tractor) near by, he recommended that I install new injectors($67 a piece) if one wasnt working it could ruin the rebuild. Im wondering if I should take the front cover off and check all the gears.I wasnt going to install a new oil pump. Had the head checked over and a few of the intake valves were leaking. Head was pressure tested and its fine. Cleaned block grooves where o rings go really well and checked liner protrusions. Putting it together today. Going to check my oil cooler again to make absolutly shore its not leaking. By the way, when I was collecting all the parts yesterday, I needed a ring expander for the piston rings, I tried harbor freight but theirs was too small. I thought I would ask the tractor shop if I could borrow one. Here was a guy that never saw me in his life, and lent me his own personal set. Lately my thoughts about people in general has been pretty crappy, not with the folks on this site, but with people I considered friends, shootings of little kids,and adults. Here was a genuinely honest trusting person who was willing to help in my time of need, and asked nothing in return. If I ever need a tractor shop Keystone Tractor in White Horse PA is where I would go and recommend to anyone. I will post back on how things go. Thanks again.
Yes, new injectors is a good Idea. That will keep an old one, if bad, from washing out the new rings by over spraying fuel.
Not sure if this is a problem or Not. When I installed the o rings, the red 1 on the top the black 1 on the bottom. There was an O ring ThaT goes on The sleeve iTself. ThaT or ring was round and flaT, basically an oval. Shouldn't that o ring bottom out on the block before the liner iS preSSed all the way in? So that the head puSheS down on the Sleeve and sealS againSt the block. My liners went all the way down till they hit the ridge on the block. I would have thought the o ring would have hit and then I would have had to push the sleeve down a little bit. ThaT didn'T seem To happen. Does anyone have any thoughts?
Ok, talked to the guy at the engine shop, he said I should be fine with the liners. Got all the mains,rods,sleeves and pistons in. Torqued head. Will finish tomorrow. Will post how it goes. Thanks
Started putting all back together. When I got it all together, as I was putting coolant In it, I noticed it had a mark on the radiator where I must have scratched it with the fan when I was taking it apart. As I was putting coolant in, I watched as it started to leak.(crap). Took the radiator off and took it to a radiator for repair, he patched it up but said it was pretty rotten. Put it all back together. Then as I was bleeding the fuel system, as I loosened the bleed screw on the filter, I realized the previous (bleeder) broke the bleed screw. Off to Atlantic Tractor to get a new filter and bleed screw. Finished all fluids and started the engine to break it in. Everything seems fine. Now need to make sure hydraulics are good then hopefully I will have a good running machine. Thanks for everyones help. Be careful with old radiators they are fragile
Haha, yea it doesn't take much on old radiators. Looks like a good experience all together for you. Your next rebuild will be even faster. The last one i did was in a 550H and i had a rebuilt head here at shop and the in-frame rebuild kit before customer delivered dozer. I swapped all parts in 6 hrs and run engine in for 2 hours and assembled panels by end of day. It was a 1 day rebuild start to finish. Only had to drain water and fill anti-freeze next morning. Wasn't even moving real fast. Just knew every tool and every step. Glad to hear it worked good for ya.