We are currently evaluating new loaders for our sewer crews. I am curious what other sewer guys are using. What machines are you guys finding to be the best all around loaders? We are looking to buy 8 loaders and replace our entire fleet. We do a combination of new housing developments and city/municipal work. Thanks all
We have both tool master and z link frame machines. Dealer support and having a large fleet can help both service wise and to be able to have common parts on hand for repairs when needed. Min size for most is 2yd machine but depending on needs I have seen 3 to 5 yd and larger when needed. We run a quick coupler system to change out the buckets/forks/sweepers/lifting booms. I am a firm believer in cabs, good seats, A/C, Ride control, bolt on cutting edges, largest tire option, extra weight package to the rear if offered. There is times I love a tool master but they don't grade and load like a z link. We run a 4x1, 2 1/2 yd . With so many machines out there I would go with dealer support, price, resale value. Buying 8 loaders at one time will almost give you a good pricing, spec what you want along with attachments and see what they will throw in.
Thanks sheepfoot. We currently have 966F series 2 and 966G loaders. We have forks and quick couplers. The 966 size is nice in some aspects and is awful in others. They are too big for road jobs. I also feel they are slow, not just because they are old. I just wonder wether we need a loader this big. The owners have always said it is to keep up with the excavator the stone box full and for back fill. We may run on a green field job two 345-375 size machines on main line and then a smaller 330 doing the storm pipe. I think they are too heavy and get stuck a lot on our green field job and they rut up a soft site pretty bad. We do have trench boxes and stone boxes to move. I think the heaviest thing we move would be those or maybe 84" concrete pipe every now and then we may install. But I don't think any of these items max out lift capacity of this size machine. Thoughts? I think size and brand are up for debate here really.
That's the deal, you have to balance needs, are they going to sell off the 966's down the road ?. With the 966 being around a 5yd machine, a good 3 yd may fill the gap and give it a run for it's money, the fork lift capacity is the killer. It comes back to material layout, laydown yard distance, area you have to work in, ground conditions. If the 966 is handling material for several trackhoes on one site, bigger could be better and cost less in the long run, not having the extra loader operator, fuel, service costs. There will be a lot more on here that work pipe jobs and can give more info, some use track loaders also.
sheepfoot, yeah we may keep one 966 around. Problem is all of our crews can be on city jobs or all on greenfield projects at any given time. Pays to have all loaders the same if we can. Also keeps operators in the same machine for feel and safety reasons. Do you think a 938 size machine would struggle with the stuff we do? A greenfield site maybe around 80 acres typically, maybe 40 on average. We try to unload trucks close to final install but muddy sites or tight city streets can create some haul distances. We do sand backfill a lot for city streets and bed pipe with gravel a lot since we have wet ground, high water table perched water. 938 or 950 size is what we are considering. Volvo and Deere have good dealers too so they are the competition. I feel like a new 950 size machine may outperform a 966F series 2 just given the power advancements in the smaller packages. I think a smaller machine would actually handle pipe and pre cast manhole structures more effetely sure to visibility and feel versus the larger units, maybe? Also maybe could add brooms to rid ourselves of the damn broom tractors? What sizes are most other guys running and do they see short comings?
I looked at and ran a 950k last year was not impressed it seemed kinda low on power (they did offer a high HP option) and it lost lift capacity at height I think it was because the way the lift cyclds are mounted to close to the bottom boom pins.( that could be a big problem handling trench boxes on top of the ground)I would demo any prospect's on a couple different job's for at least a week in all condition's if you are buying that many machines the dealer should be more than happy to give you a long term demo if not move on to the next brand
I sat in a 950K on Saturday. Rear visibility sucked IMHO. Window was cut short by headliner and huge rear hood. Also sat in a 966K and noticed they went to lever steer only. Does anyone have experience with this in water/sewer work? Does it work as well as steering wheel? Visibility would be better I am sure to the forks. I was looking over some the weights of our assembled trench boxes and we are around 26000 on two of the boxes that we run with our bigger greenfield site crews. This may limit me to 966 size machine for moving those around? Boss called today and said he was close to finishing a bid for a couple 500 home plus developments set to start in April if we get them. This means a lot of pretty deep work. One had some 84" storm pipe for underground storage. Hopefully a busy year coming up.
We do underground utility work in New England we have 4 volvo 120s great machines cycle fast and lift tons good match with any excavator handles 84" and 72" RCP no problem just traded one in with 22000 hrs no problems
26000 seems more than a 5 yd machine should handle, but if you're doing it, what the hell. Sounds though like you have the size loader you need. Now you just need the brand.
rpacbigpipe, did you trade for a new 120g? If so how do you like it? I was reviewing the 120 specs and it appears it will lift at least 26,000lbs. Do you move big trench boxes? How does it handle large manhole precast structures? How big a diameter have you moved? Shimmy1, you have any experience with the Case loaders?
SteffaniRose, is a 3CX a backhoe loader? I thought they were. We don't see much JCB here, not sure why either, dealer that sells them is decent. We don't use backhoes really. Excavator and loader are viewed as the more productive pair for us.
Traded for 120H stay away from the g not tier 4 final Regen problems handles 24' boxes no problem also can carry 8' manholes
Do you like the H so far? Feel as good as the E's and F's?
With the Torque parallel linkage you have superior breakout force throughout the range of of motion and parallel lift, best of both worlds. The CDC steering is an option, if you want steering wheel only you can that or you can have both. You can have multiple lever or single lever controls with 3rd and 4th function options. For your application I would probably get boom suspension, a quick coupler with rehandling bucket, forks, and maybe a pipe carrier. Plenty of other options or you can get it stripped down. I would definitely order them all the same rather than trying to find what you want on the lot Should be able to handle 26,600 easily but I would think about counterweights as it makes the machine more stable.
Thanks Ben. By looking at spec sheets it says tipping load on the L90 should handle close to 26600. Seems a bit much for a L90 size unit but the specs say this?
26,600 is a little over the recommended max in full turn depending upon the attachment and counter weight package. If you spec it right you will have no issues. The L90 is smaller and I would not recommend it for that much weight. Static tipping load at full turn is 21,100. But for general use the L90 would be a good machine also. I would wait til after the new year as that is when the "H" models will come out.
Now you must realize these are maximums and the machines will be much more stable at about 60% of these ratings. You might be better off with a mixed fleet with some L150H's to do the heavy work. They are equivalent in size to the 966. How do your current machines handle their duties? You should probably give the dealer a call. with an order of 9 machines you could probably get a specialist to do a consultation of your operation and needs.
Ben, our 966's do well for weight lifting capacity. They are a bit slow and clumsy I think. However this may be their age showing. I talked to my Volvo dealer this afternoon and they are coming over in the morning to talk to me. Seems to me I got a lot of responses that Volvo is a good utility loader. My rep claims the 150 will work circles around out older 966 Cats(but he is the salesman.) He also thought a 90 would be small for our work. He thought a 120 would be a bit maxed out in some scenarios. A mixed fleet may be the answer.
What is the parts availability like on the Volvo's? Are thy built heavy, to last? I know that is the one nice thing is our current Cats are still ticking, some with over 20,000 hours. Any real major issues that they tend to have?
We run L90s on our underground crews. They are great for working reconstruct jobs. They are small enough to turn easy in city streets. But will handle most every thing we ask them to lift. Very quick and nimble. We used to run 120s. Yes they would lift anything but they are too big and cumbersome for reconstruct jobs.
51kw, You have good luck with parts and service? Reliable machines? Whats some of the bigger stuff you lift? Do you have things you used to be able to do with the 120 that you can't anymore? What size excavators are you keeping up with as far as keeping the stone boxes full of bedding for them? Do you guys only do reconstruct work?
If you go to a 150 much bigger loader 120 90 70 all have the same coupler pretty sure ride control is standard cdc is a 6500k option but you still get a steering wheel we go with aftermarket jrb forks 6" long no problem keeping up with our pc 600 and 400 on our water crews we have a 90 or 70 but if available operators always go for the 120s we do a lot of work in boston and have no problem on tight streets my dealer sells komatsu and volvo the volvo loaders by far are the best on the market. We buy all komatsu excavators I've tried them all volvo cat or john Deere can't hold a candle to them for utility work.
we run all Cat. I like them the best. Komatsu are not bad. I do not recommend Volvo they feel under powered and lite in the rear. For a cat 345 a 950 is about perfect to supply the bedding box, back fill, and string pipe and materials. I think the 950 is a little small for a 375-385 but it will work if the loader operator is hustling nonstop.
rpacbigpipe, good point on the size of the 120 as for attachment interchangeability. Would like to get a broom for whatever units we get so we can get rid of these darn Deere broom tractors from the 80's. Guys don't seem to ever sweet roads because they are a pain to run and keep running. I did notice when the rep from Volvo came by that the forks they have are kinda weak looking. Is it common to get aftermarket forks for sewer crews for Volvo loaders instead of the Volvo forks? What size/style of bucket will the 120 handle? Could you get to 5yd cap? On a side note do you find the Komatsu excavators at all light duty? I looked at specs on the different models they make and they all appear on paper to be lighter and lower capacity than the comparable Cat.
I have always found the Komatsu to be very strong productive excavators
jperfect, have you ran any of the new K or M series Cats? Have you ran the new 966K or M or larger yet? Just curious about the joystick steering in them and how it works on a pipe crew?
I have ran a 950k some and liked it after getting use to it. they are strong. a friend had the joystick control steer and loved it. if it is like the skid steer then I would like it. I run main hoe but will jump on loader every now and then.
Parts and service are like everything out there. Most things are readily available but there will always be extenuating circumstances and when you need something it will be out of stock. I've never worked on a brand that was 100% on parts availability. Service will depend mostly on your dealer. I'm not sure where you are located or who the dealer would be so it would be hard to comment on what your experience might be. The 120H will handle a 5yd rehandling bucket and with that you can get a 105-110% fill factor. I would not go to a gp bucket unless you do a lot of work digging into hard material. If you go here you can download all the brochures for whichever model you like. You can also find the attachment brochure too. http://www.volvoce.com/CONSTRUCTION...LLOADERS/WHEELLOADERS/Pages/introduction.aspx
Ben, what makes the rehandling bucket better for backfill and moving stone and sand? Just curious the benefits since we have all GP buckets now. Down side to the GP bucket?
GP bucket is fine 5 yds all day long problem with most people is they bleed yellow put a good operator in a Volvo or a cat for a month they'll take the Volvo all day long to me it's not about resale value but production and reliability like any other machine at 15000 hrs they should be traded they are reliable and don't break after that all beta are off. As for the excavators a PC 400 will out cycle and lift more than a 345 all day long the smaller machines are much faster and seem to have more breakout force. Everyone loves cat because all parts are available on 24 hrs our komatsu and Volvo products don't break which means no downtime very important in the utility business
rpacbigpipe, when you do have break downs have you had issues with either Komatsu or Volvo? Also asked in he other forum but can you move your PC600 without taking the stick and counterweight off?
The rehandling bucket has a longer bottom and slightly lower top. It is designed to move loose material and has a very high fill factor. That means a 5 yd bucket will hold 5.5 yds give or take depending one the material. This is a very productive setup.
Parts are usually in stock or 24 hours away been running komatsu excavators since 1990 and can't remember a time when we needed to buy anything that failed valves pumps or engines. Rare occasions when operator broke a pipe on boom they had it in 24 hrs. Our pc 600 has quick coupler for bucket, and counter weight removal system. I can have it broke down and on a trailer in an hour. Gets it around 45 ton on the trailer. 135,000lbs all together with long stick I can't get it low enough to move one piece. 400 is 98,000 they don't make it anymore. We just traded it for a 390 which is 89,000 lbs legal to move whole. Pc 490 is a good sewer machine 110,000 lbs with a counterweight removal system.
Have you considered a Doosan/Kawasaki/Deere? The Doosans are amazing loaders, and the new Z7 Kawasaki's are very nice. We run Deere/Doosan Loaders, and they are awesome machines. The 644K is very nice, the DL300-3 is an awesome loader, as is the 80Z7.
JGibson, yes we have been looking at the Deere some. Doosan? I guess I know of them just not much about them. They have excavators too right? They kinda look like a Komatsu loader form what I can remember beside paint color.
Volvo dealer really impressed me today. They did bring out a 120H and also brought a 180G, didn't have a H version of the 180. I did not ask for the 180 he just wanted to be sure he had both sizes there knowing we were worried about undersizing. Both had quick couplers and forks. We happen to be on a big job with three of our crews on one site. Two 375's and couple 345's digging. The 180 is the same size as the 150 apparently, just more HP and counterweight. I must say the 180 Volvo impressed me. I am told the 150 would be about the same but couldn't handle the weight of the 180, bit same speed and quickness. This sound right? Only ran it myself for about 30 min but it really kept up with all the excavators nicely. He was charging 4 stone boxes and helping with backfilling for all three crews. They were using the 120 to string pipe today. It was nice too but just didn't have the capacity of the 180 or the power for backfilling. The speed of the 180 compared to our 966's was really the most impressive part. The bucket was 6.5 yard on the 180 I think. We did test it out by picking up a fairly full stone box with no problem. Our 966 could more or less do it but the 180 didn't sweat it at all and was very stable driving it around for a bit. I haven't got final numbers for a 180H versus a 150H but the 180 was a beast for sure. Good showing for Volvo today. The rep said to go ahead and run the 180 for the res of the job as it is a rental machine and they aren't real worried about hours apparently. I think the 120 needs to go back after 10 hours or so. Tires are a question. We in bias ply on all of our 966 loaders because we always felt they were best in mud. The site we were on today wasn't terrible muddy but it was soft. The 180 had the wider radials, maybe like a 750 it was? It seemed to get around better than the 966's have been. What do you guys think on tires that are versatile but are really good in soft mud sites. Do the wider, metric, radials really perform best to am I better sticking with a directional bias?
Wheel base, height, width, and main frame are basically the same. The loader arms and cylinders I believe are a little different. The L150 may seem a little more agile due to being a touch lighter and may not sink in as much on soft ground. It probably has 775/65 R29's on it unless they put something different than the normal options. You can order it with out tires and have whatever you want installed on it. I would think the wide metric's would work well in your application. The radials will give you a better ride, along with better traction and should help with fuel economy. The L150 and 180 also share the same coupler so attachments interchange. The caveat there is not to overload the 150. Good bucket sizes are probably 5.8 yd for the 150 and 6.8 for the 180.
Ben, CAT guy got wind we had Volvos out there and wants to bring a 966 out but they need a few days to get a coupler on it. I think it is a K series. I was just researching specs and the 180 almost competes with the 980 Cat on about everything besides physical size, the 180 is smaller and lighter. The 150 competes with the 972 pretty directly. I thought that was interesting since I was always thinking 150-966 and 180-972, 220-980. I know a few companies around here that run 980's in sewer work and they are just too big it seems. They didn't tell me that but some operators for them say there 980 just destroys sites and needs a decent size dozer to keep things smooth for it. I feel like this 180 gives that kinda production in a smaller size with less destruction. The Volvo dealer didn't have a 150 in stock so not sure on that yet. The tires are 775/65/R29. It is warmer here today and the site is wetter. 180 is handling it well so far with the radials. Is there a certain tread pattern that would be best for mud and soft sights? I like the ride aspect as the guys are spilling less sand on the way to the trench.
how was the rear visibility on the volvo's . I have a 972K and the rear visibility suck's cat's answer is it has a rear camera (yeah ok) and trying to talk to some one on the ground on the right hand side is almost impossible and the left side you have to open the door. the joy stick steering is pretty nice once you get used to it but you have to be careful when turning around in seat to back up because you will turn machine with out knowing it but you can't see over the back of the hood anyway who ever is designing cat loader's and excavator's seem to like big ba donka donk's
clintm, I think the 180G is great for rear visibility. The 120H not as good to the rear but not nearly as bad as the 950K I sat in. We have a 966K due on site early next week to try out. I am skeptical of the joystick steering since our guys are in and our of the cab several times a day and are very involved with ground personael. Just doesn't seem conducive to utility work. The 180 has the joystick and the guys said it was cool and great for truck loading/unloading but wouldn't trust it around the trench, therefore its nice to have the option of steering which CAT doesn't have anymore. I know the rear visibility is a tough thing to achieve in the tier IV world but I hate relying solely on the rear cam. So I don't know, seems like CAT already has a few strikes and they haven't dropped off a unit yet. Komatsu seems to have decent viability but are their loaders any good? Also stopped in a Case dealer today while on some errands. I was surprised but their loader visibility was really good. Again not sure if Case is any good either.
I've had two cases a 721 and 721B they were good machines. I don't know about the new ones since case merged with new holland some of the machines have been redesigned . I did not look at the case loaders last dec when I bought the 972K because we did not have a local dealer but they did just open a new one here in august but I did buy a new 350C excavator from them in the spring before the local branch opened .I did price a volvo loader last year but they were a lot higher than cat .there is a thread on here last year about new volvo loaders some people were not happy with them but they may have gotten the bugs out of them buy now. I bought the cat because we have a large dealer about 4 miles up the road and we have about 3'500hrs on it it will be in service one year @ exactly 2:00 PM tomorrow . That reminds me I will have to check the HRS tomorrow.
to me the cab on the cat is not very easy to get in or out of . i did have a 90Z7 kawasaki on demo visibility was great out of it but as soon as the computer sensed the most minnute wheel spin it would derate the power an would only roll bucket back I even went to the assembly plant in GA and test drove a just assembled 92Z7 it done the same thing they wouldn't even stock pile clean 3/4" stone with out stalling
clintm, how is the 350C excavator doing for you. I have heard form a few others they are good machines, very fuel efficient.
It's doing great so far run it today for about an hr . It has 600+ hrs on it so far. I have been running sumitomo machines since the early 90's (case and link belt)I did have some problems with a 5800Q a 1996 model but it was mostly the M11 engine
We use all L90 Volvo. They are reliable, good on fuel, operator friendly, good visability, smooth, and fast. Their bucket seems to tip back farther which is great for carrying stone. One L90 can keep 2 crews going, as long as they are not too far apart. The only Cats we have are around the crushers.
So today the Case salesman called on me and has agreed to bring out a 350C excavator(the biggest they have in stock) and a 921F loader to try out tomorrow. The Komatsu's didn't make it today due to a trucking conflict, kinda weird. Either way the CAT 950K we tried is not going to win. Even the owner hated the visibility. SO we need to demo a few more brands to make sure Volvo is really the one.
Keep in mind that Case is just a NewHolland, right down to that rattle in the fan. We have a Case and it spends most of it's time left in a pit for the dump trailer truckers to load themselves. We had terrible luck with NewHolland. Our 230 caught fire twice. Besides the case, the only NewHolland here is an old 450 excavator that pretty much stays in the rock quarry.
the case 350C is built by sumitomo same thing as a 350 link belt
I'm only speaking about the loaders, There are not too many case excavators around here. We had a linkbelt years ago, it was a good little hoe.
we haven't done a real pipe job In a few years but we use a906 with a side dump for small stuff a 938g for water work and drain. 950's or a komatsu wa380 for sewer and water. And have a 980 and 966 when we are doing real deep work. The 950 938 and wa380 have gp buckets side dumps and forks. The 906 takes all skidsteer attachments.
Well we tried the Case 921F out today. Visibility was superb. Also seemed to best power of the bunch so far. Couple of the operators have rated it as the best so far. Tons of power for back filling. We got it around lunch time today so we will see how it goes with more time tomorrow. Also really liked the 350C excavator. Way better than out older Cats for sure. Really smooth and quick.
Won't that be like going from a Cadillac to a gremlin
Haha I am not certain we would get Case for the simple fact of dealer support. They are both really nice machines. I think it will come down to Volvo and Komatsu(hopefully will try one this week) just based on dealer reputation. I really think the Volvo dealer is quite impressive this far and rom contractors I have talked to they have walked the walked. I don't think the Cat is the cadillac anymore. There are several other options that are better from what we can tell so far. The K series just are not up to par in the brief time we had with one. I am hoping we have some loaders decided on by end of month.
Well today we got a WA380-7 delivered. Really nice machine. Kinda confirmed to me that we are either gonna do the Komatsu loader or the Volvo. I think the Case was great, just don't like long term prospects or the dealers ability to support us. Gonna compare fuel economy on the two. Anyone have long term experience with the Komatsu 380 loaders?
A friend of mine, rented a a few different 320s, 380s etc. He liked them. The only komatsu loader I've ever run was a WA150. It was nice but I didn't love it. The 380's aren't bad but they don't last that long.
There is a water and sewer contractor in Boston that has about 15 wa 380's. Some probably 10 yrs old We have our first 380-7 nice machine with lots of power. We have put 1200 hrs on it and never notice it going into regen or have trouble with it that way
How is the build quality on the 380-7? Still tight after 1200 hrs? 13 wa380's sounds like a big outfit. Are they all Komatsu excavators too? We found the 380 to have quick hydraulics and it rode nice on the site today.
We haven't had a problem yet. They are quick and seem to be faster over the road than the 950 so far it seems like a good loader. The outfit with 13 wa380's runs a mix of cat komatsu and volvo excavators. We have an all cat fleet with one komatsu and 3 Deere backhoes
I don't know if you have ran a 966k but the one we have is a beast. Very powerful and quick. Ours has a q/c on it. Compared to the 950h before it, it is way nicer. The joystick is very nice to use and very precise. The visibility isn't the greatest but we use it around our crushing operation and between the camera and four mirrors I don't have any issues running into things.
Desertwheeler, we haven't ran the 966K yet. The dealer brought us a 950K out and we were thrilled with it. I was worried that the joystick steering would be a issue on the 966K. I think I could get them to bring one ASAP to our site, just wouldn't have a coupler on it. How many hours on yours? How is the build quality on that machine?
I'm not sure on hours I'd guess 2-3k haven't looked in a while. Seems good we had a steering sensor that would throw an alarm for a while and a couple minor issues. Everything seems to be holding up good on it considering a lot of people just jump in it and go.