Hey Guys, Like I said in the title, I will be looking for a new machine, although not right now, It will probably be a few years, but I really have no clue about excavators or operating so I would like to start learning now. A little bit about myself since I am new to the forums, I am 22, I am in school to be a software engineer, but I also work on all our vehicles, built most of my own furniture, 3/4 of the way through my grandparents basement additions, own a 85 f350 and a trailer full of tools, plan on having a small/medium size farm some day, and doing some home building. My first job I would like to use my to be excavator for is digging and clearing and area large enough for a foundations for a 3 car two story garage, probably 30 x 40, at my grandparents house that will have an apartment for my mom and stepdad to move into eventually. Obviously over my head, but no incapable. I would like a loader/backhoe, my grandfather had (passed in July) a medium size ford farm tractor, I believe it could take a backhoe, but I know that it is probably not the tool for the job considering its size. Thanks Again Guys, Devin
Devin, Good for you that your in school, get that degree....it should serve you well. I will take a shot at some answers for you...Looks like you would like an excavator and backhoe. I have about an hour of experience on a friend's excavator, so I really can't comment on that...but I can tell you it was probably the most powerful machine that I have ever operated. I try to complete my repairs myself, not sure that I could actually handle repairs to anything but a small excavator...they are large, heavy serious machines... I have a couple of older farm tractors, that I had considered putting a hoe attachment on, but over the years I changed my mind, my machines are medium sized also and I just felt that there was no sense in beating them up. I am a home owner, not trying to make money with my unit. I bought a 1970's John Deere 310 backhoe this last spring...it is full size...it was much less expensive than a compact loader/backhoe. I have access to a compact machine that belongs to my brother, great for small landscaping, but for stump pulling and moving large rock, and serious digging, a full size unit suited me. I am speaking about an older machine, with no computer, no fancy stuff etc. on board I would offer the following: After having purchased mine, I would say look extremely carefully at the machine, all possible stress points....especially around the hoe and the attachment points...hidden cracks, etc. can be easy to hide by less than honest seller...buyer beware.... Be sure it shifts correctly...does not jump out of gear...Moves strongly in forward and reverse... It should have power that feels like it is a tank....all gears should work... Check the hoses....how old are they??? I have replaced almost all of mine...I had a friend who loaned me a hose crimper and that saved me at least $600 over the course of all of the hoses. Check the brakes...they need to work, these machines are too heavy and sometimes you have to drive them over piles and other material...you need to be able to stop. Run the machine until the hydraulic oil gets hot....check all of the fluids. Bring a test meter, is the battery discharging while it is not running? Does the alternator work? Is the battery getting a charge. How's the power steering? Look at every possible item that you can see and make note of whether or not it needs to be repaired or replaced. Be sure to purchase something that you can buy parts for....and that enough machines were made to find salvage parts. Go look at several machines before you are ready to buy, so you can decide what you are looking for... Best
Outback, A fellow New Englander, I appreciate your response! As with you, I am not really considering "Making any money" with the machine I end up with, more hobbies, if they make me money as a side effect than so be it. I definitely believe I want a loader backhoe, cause I want to be able to dig foundations, but still move dirt. I want the versatility. I am also definitely looking at the older machines, I don't know when they started adding the on board computers and fancy stuff but that is not a need for me. For my needs and what I plan to spend I was thinking something between 70's and 90's depending if the price is right, I am planning on spending 10k - 20k, is that asking for a real cheap machine ? I also forgot to mention I want 4wd. The point too is also I will find it difficult to look for this fault, or test drive a machine if I have never been around them or don't know how to drive them. For something like this is a training really something that I need to do, or is it not necessary to waste my time and money, I would rather try to find a friend that has a machine that would be willing to teach me for maybe an hour rather than spend $1000+ on a course that is aimed at people aiming to get an operators job. Your last point is also probably one of the one I wanted answered the most, When selecting, I have been able to become familiar with some model number just by looking through listings, and I have come to the idea that I am going to look at brands: Case, Cat, Deere, Ford, and am I missing any others? It doesn't seem like there are actually that many models thought to keep track of, as I have searched I have checked though to see if I can find a manual for them online, to use that as an indicator on how difficult this will be. Thanks Again, Devin
I was in your positions about 1.5 years ago. I decided on a backhoe as the most versitile machine for my needs (I plan to do some foundation repair to a house I own plus install geothermal...ect). I decided on a 580SL class machine and I looked for almost 2 years. The one thing I will say is that if you can find a machine that has been maintained (where you dont feel the need to immediatly change out all the fluids and filters and such) you should weigh that heavily in favor. You can easily spent another 300 or 400 dollars just on filters and fluids and an new battery (Guilty of this). Tires are important also, as a good set of lugs still on the tires will make the machine much more capable in the muddy stuff. If you need to replace your rear tires your looking at $3K plus. Try to get the buckets and attachments you want with the machine. If you have to buy a 24" bucket and a pin or two you will be putting out another 800 to 1000 dollars. Do you need a 4 in 1 loader bucket?...if you dont get that you will want some pallet forks just to pick up brush (add another 1200 bucks). If you've never used a NEW machine you will be hard pressed to decide if the used one you are looking at is too loose for you. If you have any construction friends who will let you work their backhoe one a real job to where you will get used to how everything runs and works, you will be in a much better postion to evaluate a machine you are considering. Open the fuse box and look at its condtion. If you dont have a cab then the case 580's have a hand brake opening that allows weather to make its way into the fuse box area. Lots of dirt dust has made its way into mine. Bottom line is that anything you buy from CASE will be expensive and you will have to buy from them for most everything. Operating the loader and the hoe is not going to be automatic and you will suck at it until you get lots of hours doing all the things you can do with a backhoe. Training would be great but programming your brain to work the hoe like its part of your body will take a while.
Yeah I am usually more of a fixer upper, but I can agree with you, not so much just to save myself some money, but I want to know how the machine is supposed to act when its working, so I have a baseline for how I would like it to work compared to when its running crappy or broken. Sorry, I am confused on what this means? Are you saying CASE is more expensive than others cause its more proprietary, and you just cant get parts as easily as others? Devin
I'm just throwing out random thoughts..LOL I mean, unless you have operated a new machine and how it feels, how will you know how bad or good the machine is you are buying? I've heard Case parts are cheaper than catapillar so no, you dont pay a premium for case parts as far as I know..but if you are used to buying car parts for your grand prix, then you might get a little sticker shock on parts for your hoe.
Ah, ok I, just didn't understand what you meant
Case parts are the cheapest you can get. However, buy the nicest one you can afford. It will be the cheapest. Expensive machines have expensive "events" LOL. the original price tag never goes away. That said, you can find a NICE 580C 2WD for $7500
I have bought parts from Case and sometimes they are cheap price wise and some times they are very pricey.
"loose" means the pins and bushings have a lot of slop, mostly that means the swing will be hard to control precisely. The bucket will often slop around too but that doesn't matter to a sloppy operator. For an amateur, the wear in the loader, and boom and stick doesn't matter so much. For the weekend warrior, I'd suggest trying to figure out how much slop you can live with, because you're not going to want to fix it. Same for a variety of buckets, if you were planning for this to be your livelihood, then you'd want forks, 4 way and a bunch of buckets, but a standard bucket works fine if that's all you have. A two wheel drive backhoe is awfully hard to get stuck where the machine can't get itself out. Of course 4wd will load a lot more with the front loader, but that comes at a high price. Remember, buying a used backhoe ,compared to the original owner, you're saving a ton on purchase price but paying way more for the repairs. If price was directly correlated with reliability, then I'd suggest spending as much as you can afford up front. But there are lots of great old backhoes for half the price of some nightmares out there. I'd look at some Ford municipal machines from the 90's and take the options (4wd etc) into account on the price, but focus on finding the cleanest and simplest one you can.
I think the case dealer has a lot of leeway in what they charge. The fuel pump I just bought was 150 at my case dealer but was listed on coleman site as 129. I bought mine with a little slop in the pins and its OK but Now I find myself wanting to "go through it" and make it new again. The last pin I bought was 100 bucks. like I said, sticker shock for me. In my ignorance I figured a pin would be 35 bucks. This is what I bought a few years ago. 4X4 extendahoe. did not get 4 in one bucket or a cab. I still have regrets about that.
Thanks this really firmed up what kb9 said before now I have another good idea of something too look out for. So does that mean that you don't think I can get a good TLB for under 20k with 4x4, is this too much to ask? but I can get a good TLB for under 20k just with out 4x4? Also what do people actually call TLBs in the real world, I just want to know what the talk is?
What you need to find is a machine from someone you know or trust who will be straight with you on any issues. Or find an guy with a backhoe who spent the money and did all the repairs to bring his machine back to "tight" condition. I doubt "that guys" could ever get his money back on those kinds of repairs. So he will be selling his machine for top dollar that his machine will bring (which will be way less than he has in it). Maybe if a guy could do it all himself he might stand to recoup his investment but the parts alone are painfully high. Here's what I missed or dismissed on my machine when I bought it that I wish I had paid more attention to. 1) parking brake works but you can throttle through it and move with brakes applied 2) At least two of my hoe cylinders are leaking and so badly that about 1/3 gallon a month drips out. 3) Rear tires too worn, I really want good tires on the back 4) Battery was marginal and needed replaced. 5) Swing pins are looser than I would like them to be and swing accuracy is critical if working around something you dont want to hit. 6) One stableizer will drop over a few week period (but not always). 7) I really wish I had a cab. winter snow fills the cockpit if you dont cover it and also I just think no cab is just harder on all the controls and stuff inside and the wind is cold if your are moving snow. I cant really complain..I think I got a good deal on a solid machine ($19.5K). 3100 hours and it runs strong and the hydraulics are good. Maintinence items I bought right off the bat: 15 quarts of engine oil, 25 gallons of hydraulic oil, hydraulic filter, tranny filter, oil filter, gas filter air filter(s) battery. All that adds up to more than you might expect.
Also is there a class of TLBs like by size, say when I see a smaller farm tractor (relative to the 580sl kb9 posted for example) with out the cab, like this... http://images1.americanlisted.com/nlarge/massey_ferguson_gc2310_tlb_like_brand_new_30440921.jpg Is this even considered a TLB, and if so is there a way that different sizes or types of TLBs are described? Devin
Don't even get me started, I am still fuming about the truck I bought off craigslist in October, http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1194840-my-new-truck-officially.html Can anyone give me a rough estimate of how much these things might be to fix and how difficult? special tools that might be needed? Devin
Also how many hours should I look for, what is the don't buy this anymore cut off for most people?
I meant that you pay for the 4x4 as much in repairs and overloading as much as the price difference up front. On flat dry ground, a 2wd will load as much as you want to carry. Since this is a part time machine, like mine, you just wait until it dries out to do your digging. The pros need 4x4 and pay for it. I've been amazed at the swamps I can work in if the surface is dry with 2wd, not so great on hills but hopefully nobody takes that kind of risk with such a top heavy machine? I think you can get what you're looking for for $20k. This city machine sold near me for $27k. 1998 John Deere 310SE 4x4 Tractor Backhoe - Serial: -- Hours: 3305 -- Engine: JD 4045T Engine - 80 hp - Turbo Diesel -- Cab, Extend a Hoe boom - If you're considering 70's or 80's I'd think you could find 4x4 with a cab for $10k or so, but I'd suggest you spend the money up front, rather than deal with replacing deteriorated rubber seals ten years down the road. Us old guys know how much spare time you have once you get a job, wife, kids, farm... edit: I see from the ford truck thread that you're a real glutton for punishment. May I recommend going to the largest heavy equipment consignment auction you can find, and picking out the backhoe that has the freshest coat of paint somebody said tires ~$3,000 pins and bushings ~$500/joint hydraulic cylinders~$100-10,000 each that's just the parts Most of these things will die from old age before you wear them out, so get ones that are relatively new and in tolerable shape, even if they have lots of hours. And find somebody that knows what they're doing and WAIT until something worthwhile comes along. Like look for two years, then buy the first one that's a better deal than you've found in those two years.
Yeah I was considering 70 or 80's but If your saying its more realistic I find one of those for what I want closer to $10k, I agree, I will stick closer to $20k and try to get what I want maybe for something late 80's or 90's, plus if I see a good deal for say like $22k or $23k I can go for that to if its the right machine. I hadn't even thought of that yet, I was going to check out dealers to get an idea, but this is good too, I will keep an eye out for that too now, I hear them advertised every so often. Yes, this is definitely my plan, I know really nothing about these machines, and nor do I have the money right now. But I know If I waited until I had the money to try and learn and bought something I would end up either paying a lot more or not getting a good machine. Probably the later because I hate to over pay for things so I would have probably ended up with a fixer upper that I don't even know how to operate, let alone fix. So my plan is to try to start obtaining some knowledge now to get a base, and then when I feel a little more comfortable and have some more time, I will walk in to a couple of dealers to look at some stuff in person, check out the auctions like you said. Try and find some friends that can maybe let me try their machines out or teach me some things. Then I will be more ready. Thanks Again, Devin
"May I recommend going to the largest heavy equipment consignment auction you can find, and picking out the backhoe that has the freshest coat of paint" SMIRK!, GRIN!, CHORTLE!, COUGH SAUSAGE OUT YOUR NOSE! THAT WAS A JOKE! I guess I don't know how the icons work. A consignment auction is a great place to go to learn, probably as good as here, you'll see all kinds of things that can go wrong if you know where to look. Just don't get a NUMBER. In addition to the fresh "spray can overhauls", look for where they leak, how the engines sound, how much they smoke, blowby, how the hydraulics sound, how much slop they have. Most of the time, the engines are running and you're welcome to climb up and try em out. Just pretend you know what you're doing.
Oh, just remembered...I think the price I got for two rear tires was more like 1700. Bucks not 3000 as I said. I was just doubling what I remembered. Sorry for the confusion. In my limited experience, actually owning one I ha e learned so much that I wish I had known before I bought. If you could work for someone running a backhoe and doing some maintnence on one it would give you knowledge you just won't get from reading these forums. I think you really need to have experience running a machine to check one out properly.
Agreed, I know I won't get near the knowledge I need online compared to actually running a machine or maintaining one, I just wish that was an option. I am going to try to see what connections I have with people who own machines and see if I can get some access.
Ok, I thought of another good one. With a machine this size will I be able to pull it with my F350? And for all the other guys out there, F250, or F150? And on what trailers do you guys pull them on? Do they need to be fifth wheels? Devin
1 ton truck is minimum legal I've heard. Trailer would be good for at least 16000 lbs. Gooseneck probably with your 1 ton.
Does anyone pull with a one ton, that can chime in? Also I asked about hours before, at what hours do you recommend I stop looking? Or what range would you consider low hours, medium hours, and high hours? Devin
Also can someone list the manufactures for me, I am just thinking CASE, Deere, Cat, and JCB, are there others I should look at? And can someone list the possible models for each? Are there enough one could recall them by memory? This would be a good way for someone new to go through and know there options, speaking as someone who is new. Devin
In my opinion and in the long run .I would rent a machine for the time you need it .I know it is nice to own a backhoe but these machines arn't just tractors , they are expensive to fix . I have had John Deers and many Case products from the 1960s to the 2000s .Unless you want a hobby and you have lots of cash . As for the hours on a backhoe , you can't trust hours , all the older machines you could just unplug the tack and will not count hours this happens all the time from some crooks . I had a 580 SE with 9000 hrs on it when I sold it . This was the best backhoe I ever had But the fellow I sold it to after 200 hrs he had to put a new/rebuilt shuttle and torque coverter in it as well as new rad and water pump Not cheap and I let him run for a full week before he bought it . So you can see these machines break anytime any place .Read as many post on this site and see what a money pit these can be . I had these machines to make money As far as size don't go less than 580 or 310 series in JD Case / 7 or 8 ton machines
Yep, you should rent...but if you have your heart set on it...lots of people have spent lots of money on worse things... My opinion is that you should get a mini excavator and a bobcat with tracks. You can move them on a car trailer, you dont need a huge vehicle to pull with and they do less damage to yards, can get into tight spots and, a backhoe is a good tool for lots of stuff but its not the best tool for anything.
Excavators are too cool (bobcat325) backhoes are cantankerous(JD510b). But if you want just one machine I guess you better get a back hoe. A Backhoe only swings 90 degrees to the side and it needs a 30 foot runway to set up. My mini will dig circles around the JD. but when it comes to road building then, the big 7 ft wide bucket and its weight, glide and smooth very evenly. do you want to haul ? thats were you will spend the money on the truck and trailer. so have a clear mission when shopping. you will notice light weight machines are more expensive...hmmm...good luck
Is it possible to get something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOp9jqyecEY For your backhoe on a Loader/Backhoe I know I could use a thumb to do something similar but I am wondering if a 360 grapple is actually an attachment possibility. Devin