I realize that this is very dependent on the area you live in but I was told that the pricing is all over the place around here. Any rough ideas would be greatly appreciated. Just ball park it The typical specs are: 1 acre Strip topsoil Dig basement for 2500 sq ft home. No step footings 4†drain tile #1 stone cover ran to daylight. Downspouts risers Basement floor prep, garage floor prep, patio prep. 50’ x 12’ Driveway prep with fabric and crusher run. Replace topsoil and rough grade. Utility trenches. Thank you again and I realize that numbers aren't cast in stone.
You are doing the drainage too ? For us the building contractor does all the perimeter drains then the contractor does the moving of the drain rock etc. Anything that needs to be inspected goes under the building permit which the building contractor has. The basement floor prep is done by the building contractor too but the excavation contractor does the rough grading when the hole was dug. Same with the garage if there is one. The rest of the landscape stuff like finishing the driveway and patio stuff is left to the last untill the job is completed. Driveways here are roughed in with what ever material is on the site or material trucked in. Once the house is done then the driveway is finished usually done by a concrete contractor or a paving contractor. Land clearing and build access road 3000 3 days Dig foundation and utilities 1700 1.5 days Materials 2000 Come back for backfill and basic clean up 1000 1 day House is done do final rough grading 1000 1 day For a very easy 1/2 acre building lot its going to cost a home owner 7000 dollars that doesn't include a septic system which is upwards of 40,000 dollars depending on what type of system is done. Conventional systems are not used anymore. Some building properties it costs 10,000 dollars to get a access road built then another 10,000 in landclearing. If you have blasting to do that adds up expect to pay another 10 grand for that. What a home owner expects from a excavation contractor is to do the landclearing the access road,dig the basement and any utilities also the contractor may do the septic system. The building contractor/general does the rest. Most excavation contractors are by the hour not many bid jobs because there is too many things to go wrong. Waiting for weather or waiting for permits etc. A contractor may come in and build the road and do some landclearing then the project sits a week or two. The contractor is gone off onto another job. With our new building rules the house foundations need to have a engineer come to look at the site and approve it before anything else starts that takes a week. Building permits take up to 5 weeks before anything can be started.
From what you describe, a typical house that we will do is around $12,000. That is dig, backfill, shale and modify driveway, fill garages, stone footers, drain tile and install electric, sewer and water.
Thanks for the answers. I just got off the phone with GC and I am going to do the first one for $10k. I started at 14k. He said the last guy did them for 8K but never showed (wonder why) and the best guy he had did them for 12k. He has 60 homes to build so we will see how it goes. I plan on raising it to 12k after the first one. He also has septic to put in (not included in the 10k) so will try to make a little extra on that. Rhino sounds like I am in the rang for your area. Ford says in Canada those guys don't do very much of the work the GC does it. Here the excavator does it all because if the GC had his own equipment to do so much of it on their own they would do all of it.
The last couple I did figured out to about 40-50k. Driveway, septic, all the concrete, all the excavation, no lawn. No garage. Septic is about 10-15k Driveway depends upon length, but 5k usually covers it Foundation concrete is 10k + depending on soil Excavation, permits, fill, trenches, culverts, drainage etc.. makes up the rest.
Dawn, the homes you are doing must be pretty good size. When you say driveway does that include binder. I am just talking about bank run and crusher run for 50' If you had to take just the stuff I listed what do think it's worth. No culverts, no permits.
Excavation contractors usually don't want anything to do with the installing the perimeter pipes. They will move the material for the G/C but the G/C isn't going to pay the excavation contractor 45 bucks per hour for one of their employees to do it while one of the contruction labourers at 15 dollars per hour can do the same job. That is really odd the General contractor expects a excavation contractor to do their job. The General contractor is responsible to do foundation to roof the excavation contractor is only responsible for the digging and grading. The biggest thing the General contractors like is a nice clean excavation with no spoil piles in the way and everything is square and true. It is also nice to have a good building contractor that will do the layout and be onsite when the basement hole is being dug. For us here there is always problems with rock and huge boulders you never know till you break ground. If it turns out that the foundation needs modifying or if they want to do blasting the G/C makes that decision. Is these houses in a subdivision ? If they are then you shouldn't have to much worries but if each lot your working on is completely different the developer better know that is going to be cost plus. For 10 grand you should only be digging the foundation, digging utility trench and driveway. Do you have any pictures on the lots you will be doing ?
Around here, GC's don't want to be bothered with doing that stuff. That is why the excavators install the footer drains. For us, footer drains are a money maker.
We & most of the other excavation companies around here install footer & gutter drains when digging footers. We usually run the sewer, water, & electric conduit to the house too.
A good friend of mine is getting ready to build a house, and I told him to get the excavation allowances from his builder, and I would see if I could help him out. Here's what he gave me: Remove and dispose of stumps Clear topsoil Excavate foundation for a full basement Cut for driveway Trench footers for garage trunch utilities Backfill, final grade & spread topsoil Total allowance: $2800 Note, there is no stone or drain work, just digging. Jmac, I've tried to sell a few of guys in my area on the exact package you're talking about, but none of them seem to be interested. They just want the cheapest guy they can find to come in and dig, then they handle the rest. I've always felt that providing a "turn-key" solution would be worth something, but so far I haven't found any takers. Joe
how can you mobilize to the jobsite for 2800?
I don't see how you can even haul the brush/stumps off to a landfill for $2800. Or is the allowance $28k instead of $2800?
around these parts...... -Foundation excavation and backfill $2000-3000 that includes the footing drainage. -Septic system with Infiltrators around $6000 around $10,000 if its an above ground system where you'd have to bring in material and build up your property a major PITA. -If its in the city about $2000 to run water and sewer to the property line as the city looks after running it to the main lines. I do everything with just a backhoe my rate is $50/hr (I'm just renting for now) but by pricing by the job you can see its a little more pay in my pocket
EltraGlide, $2800 sounds real low for the allowance. The builder might be setting that so low so you don't do it for him. Maybe they are thinking 2.5 days at $1000 per day with MOB. But that sounds like a little more than 2.5 days depending on what the lot looks like. It sounds like about 5days to me or around $5000. As far as the turn key price, that is what most of these guys want except for the power rake, seed, and mulch. I will quote that and the septic later. My quote is just the trenches no plumbing or conduit for utilities. Murray, when you say 2k to 3k for foundation does that include the stone and pipe? Basement floor? Garage floor? Patio floor? Thanks again for all the replys, as I suspected the priciing is all over the place.
I agree with all your comments, and yes, the allowance is $2800, not $28000. I think what's going on here is that the builder just gave my friend his standard budget for a developed residential lot. However, what my freind has is an undeveloped, wooded lot with a fair bit of slope. It slopes bad enough that I think one corner of the house will have to sit on compacted fill. This site would be a good candidate for those track loaders we have been talking about. That's why I asked him to go back to the builder and get an exact description of what is and is not included in this allowance. My quick guestimate was that it would be closer to $7000 plus tipping fees (for the stumps) to prep the site, dig the foundation, rough-in the driveway, trench the utilities and backfill everything. Or maybe it's like jmac says, and he's not really interested in working with me. Either way, unless something changes, there's no way I would take this the way it currently stands. Even if I don't get this I'll probably still do the lawn installation and some other "landscape" work at the end of the project. Joe
So when you guys doing the perimeter drains you haul your equipment back to the site ? For us the building contractor does the footings does the forming for the concrete pours the walls strips the forms. The next day the foundation coating goes on then the perimeter drains are installed and the guys on the site wheelbarrow the 1 1/2 drain rock around the foundation. Once they get the first floor deck on the excavation contractor comes back to do the backfill and dig the utility trenches and the trench for the poo pipe. Doing the drainage is slavery work for us it is because its all done by hand in wheel barrows or buckets. I guess things are done differently the builders do it all themselves because its their butt on the line when the inspector shows up. The electrician does the utility lines to the house the plumber usually installs the water line. If the ground is too hard to dig by hand then the excavation contractor will dig the trench. I know most building contractors here tell the excavation contractors just do the job and send a bill. There is no set price the homeowner pays the bill. A excavation contractor will give a homeowner a ball park price but they are not going to find anybody cheaper. Everybody plays on the same playing field no undercutting all the equipment prices are the same. It sounds like this builder is trying to build these houses as cheap as they can and get them sold. What happens if your hauling material to the site and you get into traffic delays on the freeway. A load that should have took 2 hours took 4 for me that would be 160 dollars that I'am not getting paid for. What happens if you are digging on a site and you hit the rock of jibralter that won't budge it needs to be blasted or breakered. Who is going to pay for that does that come out of your 10 grand ? What happens if you are digging the foundation and run into bad soil conditions that requires more digging. If you say to the contractor the job should be cost plus if he says no I would walk. If he is on such a tight budget that he can't pay you more tell him find somebody else. Maybe I'am a little spoiled with having jobs where money is not a issue but I know many excavation contractors will only do what they are getting paid for. Homeowner runs out of money the project stops. Do you have some pictures to see what your working with ? I would like to add ask the GC your working for if you can go dig some test holes on the properties to see what kind of soil condtions your dealing with. So you know if its going to be easy digging or not.
Hey jmac most times the general contractor will prep the basement floor for the slab same as garages or any patio work they just think its cheaper to do it in house so I don't complain. For the drains most times the GC again will lay it out and do the stone and I'll get called to backfill but when I do my jobs on the side if the GC isn't interested in doing that I'll add another grand to the bill for my labour,pipe and 3/4 clear but most times they think its cheaper to use a wheel barrow though lol
murry83 ? Are you making $$ on them jobs? I don't see you can be with insurance, fuel, & moblilzation!! jmac, what happen to his best guy? becareful GC are known as bad payers $$$$$ !!!
$2,800 would only cover the cost of only clearing the lot for us.
I'm only doing this on the side at my own free will besides running equipment for others how can I not make money? excavate,backfill,septic (or city sewer and water services) only and do it for $10,000?,my insurance is $2500 a year and I do everything myself.
What opens the eyes of non payers is you go over and dig a ditch accross the driveway. One thing for guys in my area word spreads so fast that somebody doesn't pay their bills. It spreads like a bad rash and the G/C or the homeowner can't find anybody to work for them. It happened with a house 1/2 a mile down from me guy bought a chunk of nice waterfront property didn't pay any of his bills now the house is to lock up stage and forsale. The guy owes thousands of dollars. If its somebody I'am working for and they are new to the area C.O.D. only. I get people asking about what it is going to cost and they are squeeking and squeeling I pretty much tell them find somebody else. The other day I had a oriental person phone me to haul some garbage away I told her minimum 100 dollars she started complaining I just hung up the phone. She had the gall to ask for me to drive to her place and give her a estimate that iced the cake. It only takes a customer to screw around and complain once and I refuse to work for them again. If I do go back to work for them my rates increase. Then on the flip side I have given a bills to a G/Cs and they said thats too cheap go add some more to it
Around here the excavation contractor does all the drainage. It's been my experience that most carpenters/gc's can't figure out how to make water run downhill, say nothing of lay pipe properly. I even tar the foundation, although some gc's like to do it for a few extra bucks in their pocket. Anything that I have to wait for someone else for, I figure into doing myself. I've had gc's screw around all day tarring a foundation while I'm waiting to backfill. I can snap the ties and tar an avaerage foundation in 1 hour, an employee working for a gc will take all day.
Thats surprising the carpenters around here can get the perimeter drains in quick. You do it enough you get good at cutting and fitting then slather on the glue get the pipes joined. Labourers on construction sites are experienced they are not McDonald burger flippers. Guys are getting paid 20 dollars per hour. If a G/C asked one of the local excavation contractors if their employees would do anything on the foundation the G/C would get laughed at. The only pipe work local excavation contractors install here is water and septic lines
10-12 sounds about in the ballpark for an average house, if we dont have to bring in/take out huge amounts of fill. Then again some of the houses we do probably have $25,000 in driveway prep alone. Be carefull though the daylight basement house i just got done digging was bid at 12,500 for excavation, but it turns out the whole hillside was uncompacted fill. now we are going to have 8' high walls just to get up to the basement slab.
That makes perfect sense. I can now see why your garbage business has done as well as it has. And whats the matter with working at McDonalds ? I have a cousin that used to flip burgers. 6 years later shes a District Manager, with a company vehicle making the big bucks. Seems even the burger flippers are doing better than you. :beatsme
When your working for a customer that is driving a BMW or some expensive car and they have a expensive house and a expensive boat in the yard and they are squeeling over a bill to haul away 1000lbs of junk As for the McDonald burger flippers the ones that work in the McDonalds here are only worth the 8.50 per hour they make. We are lucky that the building contractors here are not into filling their own pockets and trying to get you to work cheaper so they make more profit. They tell the home owner this is what it costs pay up you want to build a house here you pay the going rate that the sub contractors charge. Some of the G/Cs I worked for have flipped out at the home owners because they haven't paid me for site clean up. The cost to build a house is 150 dollars a square foot for a bare bones basic house.
Thanks everyone for the replies looks like everyone has an opinion on this. The perimeter drains are back filled with excavator about 12" cover. The basement is done by excavator placing stone over wall and utilities on the second trip. I can't imagine using wheel barrow but sounds like some do it. As far as the digging goes I do have a clause in contract " any unforeseen material, water, water table etc that can't be dug with convention excavator is a change order" No dewatering at any time to be done by me with out change order. No stumps or trees. His best guy found greener pastures. I know the guy are he does fiber optic installs so home sites are small potatoes for him. I hear you on the non pay part. Made the GC change the contract three times before I would agree to quote price. Getting paid is always the worst part. His contract did say "sub gets paid when bank pays" that had to go, net 30 terms no matter how long it takes for him to get paid. As any one can attest to, including me, GC’s suck. What I am trying to do is come up with a cookie cutter package for most basic new homes. Some of these guys put up many of the same over and over again so a standard package for multiple homes is what I am getting at. Thanks Tyler that the kind of info I was looking for, the more people I talk to the more this number keeps coming up. My original number was 14k but I could be high. Looks like I was little rich. I think I can live with the first one and see how it goes; I will know more after the first one, and if I will do the second. Thanks again.
We don't want to see you get taken advanatage of by a developer most of these guys have one thing on their mind and its themselves.
Hey ,Electra_Glide ask this builder who does the work for him. Have the builder give you the guys name. Then call the guy the builder uses and either ask him to quote you on "your new home" to see what he charges or ask him if he needs some one to sub his work to. Either way you can get some good information for the future.
Thanks Ford, I agree with ya, not if I can help it. I been taken advantage of by the best of them in the past. This guy is no different than the guys I have worked for in the past. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
Wait, you actually glue your footer drain pipes ?? What for, they won't pull apart and even if they do, they will still work just as good. I've had people tell me that they glue them so they won't leak. I was like ***, they have holes in it, it is suppose to leak. For the sleeves in the bulkheads, I just slit the ends of the pipe and slide it in.
I bet that you'll get a good referral from her to all her friends, her coworkers, her family, etc. etc. I can see your business growing by leaps and bounds... So, I guess you paid sticker price for that truck you just bought, no squeaking and squealing over the price with the salesman? Cause he would have just said "find another truck"... Since when does the going rate of a product or service depend on your ability to pay? Do you have to show a pay-stub to figure out the price of a cup of coffee? Remember those business classes I mentioned a couple months ago? How do you think the guy with the Beamer, boat and big house got those things? Not by throwing cash away thats for sure. Many people like to at least try to haggle price. Ever see something at a yard sale with $1.00 price tag? Everybody wants to get it for $.50, not that they can't pay $1.00, it just feels good to get it half price. Haggling is very important for some cultures too, maybe you should learn about your customers. Wait, that's one of those things I learned in business class.... Now where is that "violin" smiley? jmac - sorry about the hijack, best of luck with the bid/work.
I've never glued a footing drain together, but i glue my downspout drains. on an average house i can put in the footer drain pipe, downspout pipe, and drain rock before lunch time. usually ~20 yards does it and i place it with the excavator. only time ive seen people place drainrock by hand is when they are too cheap and trying to skimp by with 10 yards of rock and a day laborer.
Yes, I glue my downspout drains together too. If it is a small foundation, we will throw in the stone for the footers with the excavator. If it is a big hole, we will dump the stone right in the hole and I go down in with the dozer and spread it around.
Yes glue is used because 90% of the foundations here are stepped because they follow the solid rock they sit on. There might be 6 joints in one run of pipe using 45s and 22.5s to follow the contour of the rock. It doesn't take much to have the glue bottle with you to slather up the joints. I guess you guys are used to foundations that sit on flat ground and you can walk or run a machine around them. Not the case when your building on tough lots like rural West Coast of B.C. has. Many houses sit on stiltz because of the contour of the ground. The whole house is supported with wood posts. Some foundation walls are 16 feet tall because of the slope. You can't dig it flat because its solid granite dig the soil off the top which is usually couple feet and your down to solid B.C. . Drill and pin the rock and start forming the concrete walls but you need to spend a couple days with a 3000 PSI presure washer washing the rock clean. One of the contractor friends is working on a 2000 square foot house a real basic house and the foundation has taken almost 6 months to complete because of the bare rock the house sits on. It takes a long time to cut form ply and shiplap to follow the countour of the ground. Some of the walls are 14' tall and 10 inches wide and have 5/8s rebar throughout. The house will have a 1/4 of a basement and the rest will be a crawlspace. As for the drainage a excavation contractor can use the machine to make little piles where the machine can reach then the rest of the drain rock is moved by hand. Its usually a wheelbarrow or a 5 gallon oil bucket with the lid taken off. They make ramps with 2x10s so a wheelbarrow can make it over the rough spots. Digging 1" 1/2 drain rock isn't easy its back busting sweat pouring off your forehead work. Sometimes 3/4 clear crush is used but thats allot more expensive there is close to a 300 dollar difference or more per 12 yard load. When a average foundation here takes 2-3 loads. Plus you use more material when you use 3/4 clear. I don't envy the construction labourers I have been there you earn ever penny of of the 20 dollars per hour. When I was labouring it was only 15 dollars per hour back in 2000. I don't like heights so I never did make a good construction labourer. I get up onto a ladder and you would think there was a earthquake the way the ladder was shaking Some of these houses now have a 50 foot drop from the peak of the roof to the ground because the way they are built on the properties. Its a 2 story house sitting on a rock ledge. My parents house has a 60' drop from the peak of the roof to the ground. The house I mentioned that is taking 6 months to do the foundation will have a 80 foot drop if you fall off the front porch and its a straight down drop you may bounce off the cliff the house is built on. We don't have basements so most have above ground basements then a main floor then a top floor. Depending on how much blasting you want to do to make the ground flat the house sits on makes the size of your basement. What really has made the building lots that we couldn't use before but we can now is the big advancements in waste water treatment. Pretty well any lot can be built on now but it requires a 40,000-50,000 dollar sewage treatment plant. The driveways are also expensive it can take 30 grand getting a road roughed in. One driveway in the area cost 30 grand just to concrete it and the driveway is so steep they used a log skidder to pull the readymix trucks back out. They unloaded some of the concrete the guys screeded it around the skidder pulled the truck up further unloaded more concrete. The driveway is a 1/8th of a mile long its one of the biggest concrete driveway jobs the concrete contractor has done and one of the toughest. There are many places ready mix trucks just can't get to now so boom and line pumps are used. Lots of fun Its getting to the point now if a excavator can work on its max gradeability the property can be developed. It all takes money and some people are willing to spend 1 million not including the property to build a house. Some of the newer houses going into the area are 3000-4000 summer cabins the house gets used for the summer months untill the people retire and become perminant residents. I'am hoping the construction picks up here again and the one subdivision takes off because it will be quite a few years worth of landscaping work for guys like me.
Ask that guy with all those toys if he will take less $$ for what ever he does!!! I dout it!!! Those books sound good, Try the real world !! See how it makes you feel!!!! When someone keeps tring to chew down the $$ it makes me want to do less for them not more!!!
Any of the jobs I price out I try to be the fairest I can I'am not in the business to gouge people. When somebody is trying to make me give them discounts for a small job that is costing at the most 300 dollars. The old retired people that live on pensions I really watch on how much I charge. The oriental women that phoned me just made me mad squeeling over my minimum 100 dollar charge. I looked up her address from the phone number and it was a 20km 12mile drive one way from my house. I could barely understand her because she doesn't speak english very well.
Going rate to dig seems to be $15-25 a yard, or some people do digging by the day. I could see that being upwards of $50k for the package if the property was around here.
Not for nothing, but what does race or how someone speaks have anything to do with a job? Money is money, people can pay the price or move on.
You can never base if a person is wealthy or not on how their house looks. I've met people with nice houses who can't afford to pay $10 to plow their driveway and someone in a tar paper shack who'll pay good money to go do any job for them. Lawyers and doctors I find are the biggest tightwads,go figure
I don't judge anybody by race but when I told the oriental women minimum 100 dollars the first thing she said ooh too expensive why so much. Then it was 10 minutes explaining why I charge 100 dollars minimum then she kept saying why so expensive. Then she said can you come over for a free estimate :Banghead With my familly being here for 30 years we know allot of the long timers they have large houses and some fancy toys I never have problems with them. Its the new residents that move to the area they just paid 850,000 to 1 million for their house and they are trying to make me give them a cheap rate. You just bought a house with cash which allot of these people do and your trying to make a person trying to make a living loose money. I can tell who I'am going to have problems with its the ones asking about costs soon as I step out of the truck. I haven't even started the job and they are worried about what I'am charging. Like Murray said its always the ones with not much money and work hard for their money are always willing to pay what ever my rates are even if its their last cent. I appreciate people like that and I will give them deals especially if they pitch in and help me. Some of them even offer me lunch or cans of pop. I'am willing to do more for less for these type of people because these people spread your name around.
Glue drain pipe? You guys use sch 20 perf pipe? We use the black perferated drain pipe with the sock. The CEO's around here tell us to use that with no stone. On dry lots I will, but anywhere that looks like it may have water I'll lay some stone in as well.
atgreene, thats what I use, 4" perferated pipe that comes in rolls with sock and #1 or #2 stone cover. The fitings just snap together. Sometimes I might wrap joint with duct tape but joints snap togther.
White PVC CSA approved. Many contractors have tried using non CSA pipe and the inspectors know it so they go look if its non CSA pipe it has to be ripped out and redone. The non CSA (Canadian Standards Association) is allot cheaper because its thin wall crap you step on it and it cracks. We don't 4 inch Big O its not a proper job use nothing but rigid PVC and 90s 45s and 22.5s. The only time we will use 4 inch big O would be solid and its in a area where its temporary. If you see a building contractor using Big O pipe they are being lazy its not a quality job. What happens is the Big O pipe eventually squashes from the weight of the back fill and you end up with problems. I wish we could get filter socks so what gets used is landscape cloth the building supply has it in bulk rolls that they sell pieces by the foot.
Kamerad47!!! I doubt it too!!!! But from his point of view it doesn't hurt to ask if that's your best price!!!! They can't make you work for less than you'll accept!!!! But you don't have to be rude about it, just be polite and explain that you have expenses to pay just like anyone else and that you offer a good service at a fair price!!!!!!!!! You don't have to hang up on them!!!! All being rude does is ensure that neither they or anyone they know will use your service!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have people do it to me as well, but I don't take it personally, I just explain my situation and let it go!!!!!!!!! Sometimes they agree to my pricing, sometimes not, that's just part of owning a business!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is the real world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PS - I think your exclamation point key is sticking..... LT - I'm not suggesting that you are gouging anybody. I'm suggesting that you might not want to hang up on people. Just as you say "word gets around" about folks that don't pay, word also gets around when you hang up on folks who ask for what you consider unreasonable discounts or eek: )an estimate. Very few residential customers will turn you loose without some idea of what a job will cost. I average 1 day and about 200 miles per week doing estimates. The jobs won't beat a path to your door. Murray, Ain't that the truth. Sometimes the cars, boats and big house are exactly whats keeping them "toy poor". You just never know. Now back to foundation drain pipe - anybody use curtain drain instead of perf pipe and stone? Seems to be big around here now.
Please do explain this curtain drain. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ooops my key stuck :falldownlaugh I understand what kamerad47 is saying, it does get real old, real fast with all the "is that the best price you can do" stuff. But I agree with Orchard it is part of the deal. I take those types of customers as a challenge to me to see if I can sell them on paying my price and being happy about it.
I'am not too worried about the oriental woman. Most of my work comes from general contractors and people I have worked with over the 12 years I have been doing this. I will go look at jobs when people say can you come over to look to see what I have to remove. There is no complaining about the prices they want their yard cleaned up or something hauled to their place. Enough being off topic but I won't work for people that don't respect the people that live in this community. If you don't want to spend any money or respect the business owners in the community you live in then you shouldn't live here. That woman that phoned me had no respect what so ever now I think about it she was being rude.
It's kind of a flat pipe for lack of a better explanation. 1" thick, maybe 6" high with the fabric already glued to it. If you look at it in cross section it looks like a bunch of "W's" on their side. The fabric lets in the water, it gets channeled down the voids in the "w's" to a fitting into a regular corr. pipe. I have seen some of the builders use it here, (supposedly) no need for clear stone. There is also a much wider version that looks like a big egg crate with fabric glued to it that you put against a basement wall. Same concept just more capacity. Here is a link . Sorry for the poor description. Curtain drain is what I the builder called it, maybe another term is correct?
I use 4" S&D perf pipe. I use the brand name ADS 3000 which is a triple wall pipe. Pretty damn strong. I don't like using the black corrugated pipe.
So has anybody here used this stuff? The website says you don't need to backfill with gravel. Seems like this would work very well with existing structures where you're trying to retrofit or replace french drains. Certainly distrurb a lot less ground if you don't have to bring in gravel. One of the local Lowe's carries some of this stuff, and at about $54 for a 4'x25' sheet, it also seems pretty economical. Joe...who needs to do some foundation drain work on his own house...
I wouldn't backfill with any material that won't drain well regardless of what the website says. The water has to be able to reach the drain in order for it to be carried away, and the faster it does that the less likely you are to have problems. There is a house being built behind me on the side of a hill. They backfilled the foundation with the heavy material that came out of the hole, very much like clay. I'm sure they will have future problems as snow melt and run off come down the hill and hit the foundation. It will take too long for the water to perc through the material they filled with.
So you've been by my house huh.:Banghead
Ive used that stuff before.... what a pain in the ass!!!!!!!! Think twice if you plan on only overdigging a small amount because you wont need to backfill with stone... you do need some room to work to put it up, roll it out, apply the glue, set it back on, and still put pipe at the bottom or the footing. All it is really used for is speeding up the flow of water from surface to pipe on the bottom. And I ve never even heard of backfilling with stone; unless you have the terrain graded towards the house and need somehting that will perk ASAP. Water will follow the wall down into the footing, and from there out the pipe.
Its interesting to see what methods other excavators use around the country. JMAC - We get $30K +/- for a average house lot package. Its interesting to see other contractors running the roof drains to the footing drains. I myself dont do this. My reason is the footing drains purpose is to get water to drain away from the foundation. Why would anyone introduce all the roof water down to the footing .
I agree with you DigDug on the issue of connecting the roof drains to the foundation drains. The roof drains should be run seperately in my opinion. We run the roof drains and yard inlets together but never connect it to the foundation drain.
It's actually against building code here. It's just common sense, if the footing drain should get plugged for any reason, you'd be sending water into the basement by running the leader pipes to the drains.
You guys are rite. I just do what they tell me to do or is specked in plans. I would dig a separate trench for them but seeing how that will cost me more to do and this GC already has me doing it too cheap I won't change it, unless he gives me a change order. Had to go over contract for the third time and change a bunch of stuff. I ended up completely rewriting a lot of it. It amazes me that every time a GC that gives you a contract that they have written to sign how one sided it is. Always gives the GC lots of wiggle room to find a way to not pay you. If you don’t read every word carefully and change just about every sentence watch out: They love to use words like: Appropriate Discretion Adequate Can be And many more that are very vague at best. I want it as black and white as possible so every one is on the same page. Some examples are: Requesting the soils to pass certain compaction test but doesn’t state who pays for test. You know they will want you to pay and could ask you to test every day. Another is keeping site clean, will charge you back if it is not. Doesn’t say if it is your garbage or every one else's garbage clean also. Adequate staff or timely fashion. Who determines that? The GC. I don’t think so. So many of these that I can’t list them all. Just read every sentence carefully and think of how the GC can use it against you. Sounds cynical but really is just the smart and only thing to do. This is for one new home not some big commercial project but I still want to start of rite from the start with this guy so I am not arguing with him when it’s time to pay me.
Thats why lots of GC's here have their own excavators and do it themselves...not much more to build here anyway so it doesn't make a difference. But with the contract like you said mak eit Black & White otherwise when is time to get paid they'll have aa million excuses why they can't.....
Jazak, been down that road. Most GC's here don't have dozer, excavator, skid steer. dump truck, trailer. You get the point. They like to work out of pick up and sub everything out and then not pay the subs.
jmac - Make sure you are 100 percent comfortable with the contract. Tell the G.C. you think his contract is **** , and change it to what you think is fair. Dont put up with anyones bull**** .
I'd say to strip the loam, dig the foundation, backfill, and grade basement, water, sewer, drain, and driveway you'd look at about $25,00-$40,000 grand depending on thedepth of the sewer and what not. I did a 25 ft sewer connection for my friend. It was All labor and machine work, he bought the manholes, the flowable fill, and patched it. $8300 was what I charged him. I think he said with the manholes cost another $4500, the flowable fill was $5,000 , the temporary patch was $1,000 and the permanent patch which he had to remove a concrete area of 8 inches thick with rebar cost like $3000. SO that job was worth probably $21,000 roughly. But that was on a mainline. If the sewer is shallow like 8 ft or so the price would have probably been $5,000. All depends on specs like that.
Since the subject of contracts came up, what type of contract do you generaly use? I mean did you make contracts up from scratch or use premade ones from the Associated General Contractors of America like AGC doc 604 "Standard short form agreement between contractor and subcontractor"? I realize in this case the GC already had one made, was it written by his attorney or something from the AGC or AIA? mflah87, how much time did you spend on that job for your friend?
Mike J, I think the AIA contracts suck! They are one sided also. One thing that comes to mind is in the AIA contract litigation has to go to arbitration. Forget that, I want to use my attorney not some arbitrator. It is best to use your contract but if you have to use the GC's than rewrite it if you have to. Read every word because they will find ways to pay you slow or not pay you at all even if you have the best contract. The more you determine up front the better. I may not of been doing this for decades but the one reason that I have grown so far is doing everything possible to protect myself the best I can. A good lawyer is worth every penny, at least to show you the ropes, then after you pick his brains you won’t need him unless something goes wrong.
I had an 8 hour day to dig it, put the trench boxes in and plate it. ANother 12 hour day to connect it and another 12 hour day to flow fill it. I brought it right to the house for him. The worst part was getting thru the concrete in the street. I had my Komatsu PC40 with the 750 lbs hammer there breaking it up. I used my Komatsu PC300 to dig it. And 3 laborers. Plus my tenwheeler to move the gravel I dug from the street to place on the site. It had a chimney that went in at 14 feet, but The main was down at 25 ft.
I ended up turning this GC down. We compromised at $10,000 for the work and then he added to the contract. He added water main, sewer line to septic tank and coming back after the home was done to re grade yard and driveway. He wanted me to do this after the home was built and I left. So mobilize again and fix what I already did after all the rest of the subs wrecked it all. He also wanted to hold back $1000 till I came back and did this work and then wait another 30 days to get paid. Many other small items that gave me concern. I wanted to get paid for the work that I have done in the last couple of days, manly strip topsoil. It took me about 4 hours, lot was very wet. When I asked the GC about billing he says that stripping topsoil was should be about one hour. I said ya with a D11 maybe. This just confirmed what I was worried about. I don't want to be too picking about contracts so I talk myself out of work. This has bothered me quite a bit. The job wasn't very big but I still wanted to feel comfortable about contract. What do you guys think? Any ways went to pick up my dozer up today. I Will pick excavator up tomorrow. I moved my stuff to the site before I had contract in hand to do a favor for this guy, won't do that again. He kept telling me that he had a guy to do it for less. I said ' why are you talking to me then?' He said that he had worked with many excavtors before. I asked " why are you not working with them now? Just same old crap.
I love it when a GC says ya get it done hurry up. I had my dozer grade a parking area and the next day was going to pour. So I didn't bother to send the guys in. I get a phone call at 7:30 " Where are you?" I said " At the office." He tells me get over here and finish grading this. I laughed at him he said ya you can do this im not sinking in it to much. I just hung up the phone went there 2 days later finished it. Didn't get paid he told me he'd pay me for the grading when I paved it. He already owed me $20,000 and expected me to grade it and wait 4 months to get paid.
This is a classic sign of a GC out to take advantage of the little guy. He knows that when he breaks your back on this job, another up and comer with no experience will be there to replace you on the next job. The long line of prior graders will all tell a similar story. The GC's who do this are bottom feeding scum, and do not deserve to be in buisiness. A good GC will value a relationship in which both of you can profit, and you will be there for the next job at a good price because you know you will be treated right. Sadly, these are not as common as the bottom feeders.
Jmac, I think you will be way ahead walking away from that job. Sounds just like a gc I did a house for last winter. He still owes me $2,700 and I know that I'll never see it. The only good point was that the homeowner had me do another $8,000 worth of additional work. He was very satisfied and was a pleasure to work for. I feel bad for him though, as the gc cut some corners on the house, and I know he will have problems later on. It's tough to find a good home builder to work for!
What kills me is that I started at $14,000 and that was a fair price. I let him get down to $10,000. That was my first mistake. I will agree that I am a little guy. I do have enough experience to realize that this guy was no good. I also have enough experience to try and do every thing I can do keep from being taken advantage of. The fact is that the GC's I have done work for on commercial job's worth a lot more than this one have been very happy, have paid me, and have indicated that I have given more for the money than any other sub's they have used in the past. I know that I have a lot to offer and have proven it to those that will work with me in an honest fashion.
Jmac, I have that problem too. It seems that so much of the work that is out there isn't worth trying to do and the generals are always trying to beat ya up.
I should say " well just part of the day to day" and I would be correct. I am sure that not many guys on HEF have not had to deal with this crap so why complain. Sorry about that, but is get old sometimes. Just give me a hole to dig I will be fine. :drinkup :usa
I'm not really doing many single house lots anymore, mostly commericial and big subdivisions, but my cousin works for builders and hes always after them for money. They have no sense of loyalty. If your doing a job and someone else comes in and says they'll do it for $10 less the builder with throw you off the job and take him. My cousin left his excavator right in front of the house so the builder couldn't have the wood dropped off. He called up screaming to move it he sayed " Oh I can't afford to hire a lowbed to move it." He got his check because the lumber company charged him another delivery fee.
I feel like I need to post this since their is alot of GC and Homebuilder bashing going on. Not for one minute am I questioning everyones experiences with bad GC's/Homebuilders- believe me I know they are out there - but I have a few stories of my own from the other side working with bad subcontractors and yes- even excavators. Most of it is the norm. Starting a job and then disappearing - leaving me to finish the job with someone else- always at a higher cost. Inferior/shoddy work that I have to replace at my expense. You can do alot to prequalify your subs but some just go whacko on you out of the blue. The most tragic is a good sub that you have a great relationship, that does good work, who ends up hooked on some kind of drug. Lost one of my best plumbers this way. Dragging a job out after getting 1/2 the way through - no respect for my schedule. Requesting pay for all of the job before they are even 1/2 through. My policy is the check is written when the job is completed- unless agreed upon before hand. And I don't even want to talk about their safety issues. Or should I say a total lack of. Paying by the hour for excavation jobs. Whole lot of idle time on the meter. One particular instance - I hired a sitework contractor to do a turn key subdivision for me before I was in the dirt business. Everything went well, had a bid and they didn't change order me to death. After the job was completed I had some problems with street settlement, water services and sewer laterals. Every time I met with the project manager about these issues there was always an obscure clause in the contract that let them off the hook. Finally I just got tired of arguing with them and fixed it myself. Anyway there is a silver lining to this story because this is what prompted me to get into the excavation side of the business. This was something that I always wanted to do since I do have "yellow iron fever". I was paying for their equipment, labor, OH, fuel and profit but left with the liability. I figured if I was already paying all of that, I might as well get into the business and do my own work. Like I said, I just wanted to offer another perspective. With this being said I have alot of very good subcontractors that are professional business people but I have had my share of the bad ones.
CM there are always 2 sides to everything. And good and bad no matter what the occupation/proffesion. Some people are just not reliable.
Drugs seem to be the killer of this buisness. I know plenty of guys who started off with nothing, broke their back to get where they were, saw they were making good money and got hooked up on something and lost everything. Its a waste.
Yes, two sides two every story. On this forum all you can hear in this instance is my side. I bet if you spoke to the GC that I was working with he would say that I was overly protective of my best interest. So I appreciate what you are saying. I bet the reason for some of the clauses in this GC's contract was because of bad sub's he has had in the past. I guess you have to trust that everything will work for the best. This all sounds great but how far to you go to protect yourself. With this GC all I was asking was a very exact contract with no gray areas for his interpretation of the contract. If he has in his contract too many ways to wiggle out of paying you and the subs don't do the work than every body looses. I don't think I won, I wanted the work. That is the point that bothers me the most. I am only as good as my last project. I think that the issue of the going from $14,000 to $10,000 was a big red flag for me. If I was going to do this so competitively than I wanted to be sure I was going to get paid. Another thing that bothered me, I was told by another excavator that he did not pay well. I still am second guessing myself, maybe I was to protective. I don’t know. It is best to try and put yourself is his shoes. Don’t forget this fact; I move my equipment to the site, do the work, all at my expenses before I get paid a dime. All the risk is mine until I get paid.
Most big builders just plain SUCK.That is why I like working for homeowners to either correct the builder's excavator's mistakes or some repair,addition,expansion,etc.I have seen way too many excavators buy new iron,only to lose it along with their credit when the builder won't pay up.I love when they call for pricing--I'll find some big numbers and then tell them it's ALL upfront.I'd rather not work at all than work for next to nothing,with all their demands and BS,only to have to wait for a closing to get paid.
I am the opposite. I prefer working for builders/developers than homeowners. They just give me a set of plans and tell us to get it done. No meetings going over the site and explaining grade and stuff like that. Most homeowners are clueless and you waste too much time going over things. We just let that stuff up to the builder.
Builders do suck to work for. You'll do $12,000 worth of work and the weasel will give you a check for $2000. That's why I'm doing more commericial stuff I get a check at each point. My cousin is constantly complaining about builders. He told me he wants to work for me as a sub and get a guarenteed check every 30 days than maybe a check here and there.
I am glad that this thread has had some good reply's. It goes to show you that every one has a way of getting it done. What I would like to do is get work from all area's. Home owners, Home builders, GC's commercial. And I want my dump truck delivering material every day. It doesn't matter to me, I just want to protect my self the best I can and not be so protective that I turn down work. I have yet to have enough core customers to keep my equipment moving all year, working on that. When I get to that point I would like to get paid for most of it.