Just trying to get some perspective on wheel studs and nuts and how everyone deals with the slight rust surface on both stud and nut threads. The super dry contact results in 'jumpy' torquing. ie; there is a lot of friction in the threads, and when torquing the nut, the nut needs a whole lot of force and moves a lot. This action is repeated until the desired tq is achieved, or so you hope. I would think that these 'jumps' would likely cause over torquing, the very thing that lubing the threads is supposed to cause. At least with some lube, the threads are less likely to gall and fail, and tq in a more progressive manner. I was thinking along the lines of the canned spray graphite or something. Just to be clear, most of my studs are new or recent, not 'rusted' out. But very dry. Looking for experience on standard practice. Thanks
I usually dab a little bit of antisieze on studs that are like that.
That is what I have been thinking. you could even dab, run the nut on to contact and the pull it off and remove the excess. From the research I have done, one of the biggest differences in applied tq is when you lube the nut contact surface of the wheel.
I generally put a good coating on the threads, some of the tire shops around here use the sprayon antiseize and they give each stud a good coating but just on the top half of the threads.
Yeah, that is what I have been told as well. I'm sure we could assemble a committee of engineers from all around the world, spend 12 years and waste about 8 million dollars to figure out the answer (it's the government way right?) Something else I've done is use a rethreader on the stud and nut to clean it out. I have something like this http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?item_ID=641094&group_ID=675360 I had some on something that had gotten painted and the nuts didn't like going on.
I use Motor Oil or Anti seize... Depends where you are... What you can get... You might not be by the shop... But the Truck probably has some oil stashed... This comes from experience... . Gotta Fly... .
Yair . . . In the bush it always used to be that you ran a bit of oil off the dipstick . . . rest the stick on the stud and wipe it down with a matchstick, you got two studs per dip, one from each side of the stick, you don't need much. Cheers.
I use a dab of antiseize, a Harbor Freight one inch gun and run the nuts down tight, but don't let the gun hammer for more than a half second. I'm not breaking studs and nothing is coming loose.
Do you torque the wheels at all? I will spend the 5 minutes it takes to torque a wheel over having a wheel come off any day.
If I had a torque wrench I'd use it, but I don't know anybody who uses one, that includes commercial tire shops. Some people let the wrench hammer longer, but some people break studs.
I use antiseize but i read a book at a tire shop that told what diffrent manafactures wanted and alot didnt want any oil or any thing used.
you can get chinese torque wrenches for 10-15 bucks all day long and they are plenty accurate for tire work, it is common practice around here for tire shops to use antiseize on big stuff but not passenger car wheels. Also most every shop I have seen uses torque limiting extensions and such on all passenger/light truck work.
Those 15 dollar Chinese torque wrenches aren't 1 inch drive and a torque wrench that will handle 500-600 ft-lbs of torque aren't 15 dollars.
Sorry, I didn't specify, I was talking about 1/2 inch drives that got to ~250 ft/lb.
Yair . . . I'm afraid most of my wheel/tyre work was done along the track. I was eleven and a half stone in those days and bouncing with one foot on a three foot breaker bar was all I ever did . . . main thing was to check them a couple of times over the next fifty miles or so . . . mostly by that time you could get a fraction of a turn and a satisfying creak. Cheers.
I'll bet the old boys had a good laugh watching that.
In the U.K. some years ago a very in depth study was done into wheel loss and wheel fasteners, the basic answers found involving all styles of fastener types is the need to use engine oil on the stud and nut to attain the correct torque clamping effect on the rim to the hub, grease was found not fit for this task also copper ease/slip was found to draw moisture and effect the correct tension loading so also rated as not fit for this type of fastening other than coating the hub spiggot mounting area, a torque wrench should always be used or at the first opportunity to correctly load the studs, so the answer is to invest in an oil can and use a torque wrench as wheel loss is a killer to some-one, also in the U.K. if wheel loss happens it is possible to have a court sentence to the Queens Hotel (Prison-Jail) tctractors
Yair . . . Dunno. A torque wrench seems to be making a mountain out of a mole-hill. It's just a bloody wheel. I say again. The main thing is to tighten the studs and check them a couple of times during the next fifty miles of travel. Once they have settled in they are not going to come loose. This checking once was standard practice, everybody knew to do . . . it was as automatic and natural as checking oil and water before you start up every morning. Of course that was in the days when truckers fixed and fitted their own tyres. I see lots of trucks on the highway these days don't even carry spares. I don't allow rattle guns to be used to tighten studs on any of my vehicles if they do I crack them off and retighten by hand . . . I believe over tightening is mostly the reason that they break. Had a classic case a few years back . . . my old mate with a brand new Defender with a wheels rattled up so tight he couldn't change a flat until a trucker came along with bit of pipe to put on the handle of his breaker bar . . . they went around and cracked all the studs as they were tightened all the same. Cheers.
Back in mechanics school they said never use any lube on wheel nuts. Lubing threads increases the torque so when you hit the torque wrench at 500 lbs your actually using a lot more torque than necessary, over torquing and breaking the stud.
I'll second that. I hired (stole) the best tire tech (?) in the area. He had all the training & certificates a tire buster could have. The first thing he did was straighten out all us old dogs about lubing wheel studs. He was taught wheel studs & nuts and meant to be assembled clean & dry. Never lubed.
Yair . . . OFF . Yes mate I've heard that story and I have no doubt under ideal conditions it would be absolutely right. Most of us don't work in ideal conditions and we have to contend with rust and corrosion and threads damaged by years of snugging down clamps and being subjected to dings and flattening of the crowns by wheel changes in some Godforsaken hell hole in the middle of the night. Under real world conditions a little lube on the thread can make a whole lot of difference. I am in no way being critical . . . just pointing out that roadside conditions can a very different environment to what that tire tech (?) ever worked in. Cheers.
The wheel loss study paid for by the Ministry was carried out by Leeds University, the lubrication of the threads with E/O was found to be the best method of attaining the correct torque/clamping of the fasteners with on average only a 5% error margin, the lubrication or rather the lack of it is a known factor resulting in wheel loss, all the top Transport Co's that also maintain their own vehicals would oil studs and nuts. Scrub Puller, ever hear the verbs " No Foot no Horse " so your comment "its just a bloody wheel" dont sorta get you very far when its missing, your comments might be perfect within your locality, but here and within Europe if you are found to have been the cause of any road going drama or roadside checks the " Queens Hotel " always has rooms vacant to let you think about your Nuts, the torque wrench commonly used for wheel nuts is low priced and also a legal requirement within a truck service bay, this item would be looked for when a Vosa inspection is carried out, so your comments and actions here in the U.K. could possibly cause a loss of life resulting with your calender being Booked Up for a few years. tight nuts tctractors p.s. S.P. I do agree on the side of the road you do what you have to do to move on, and as you said check the wheel sets after a few miles, its what would be the industry standard, but I take the oiling your nuts question as more to do with the service bay not the roadside wheel change saga.
Yair . . . tctractors . (big grin) This is a very serious subject and I thought that comment would get a bite. Truth is losing a wheel through lost nuts/loose wheel studs is a problem that never should arise. I have never had it happen but have sacked a few who have . . . not lost wheels but flogged out bolt holes or spiders. It is inexcusable and I say again you have to check them several times in the next fifty miles . . . if folks want to trust some twit with a rattle gun it is completely up to them. About two years ago just on daylight I found a truck wheel hot and smoking laying in the middle of the fairway of the golf course. I back tracked it by the bounce marks and found where it had taken out the fence and it was obvious it had come off a truck heading south on the highway. From memory it was a twenty two inch tyre on an aluminium wheel a good inch thick . . . the bolt holes were flogged out and it was obvious what had happened. I had never seen such a wheel setup and surmised there must have been some extra nuts holding on the inner. I believed it to be a dangerous situation as the studs would have had a pounding and there was every chance the inner nuts were loose and sheared studs were on the cards. I rang triple "0" as I had got no response from the local police number at that hour of the morning. I explained to the 000 operator that there was a truck loose on the highway in imminent danger of loosing a second wheel and suggested the police get a unit out of the town eighty kays south to check on south bound trucks. Well I copped a bloody earful from her supervisor . . . the emergency triple zero number was for emergency's only and what was my name and address. I told him to get stuffed and hung up and to this day don't know what happened . . . I think the club made fifty bucks on the tyre and sold the wheel for scrap. The point to the story being that "the authorities" don't seem to take such carry ons very seriously over here. Cheers.
Always used oil as anti seize dries out... Never lost a wheel or any I've fitted come loose. Personally I dislike anti seize with a passion. Normal grease or oil is my preferred lube for fitting things.
I agree with Scrub.... Real world... Talk to that mechanic in a few years... He'll have changed his tune... Gotta Fly... . .
In some parts of Canada a lost wheel warrants a $50,000 fine. The only way to reduce/get out of the fine is to prove due diligence by providing shop records that all repairs were properly carried out. Most likely requiring a certificate of calibration for your torque wrench.
No Ossifer . No Ossifer, That's not "MY" wheel.... I left the yard with only three.... . . Gotta Fly...
And the Canadian red seal exam for truck and transport mechanic says no lube. So if your wheel passes you on the highway your studs better be dry!
Yair . . . this is an interesting thread. johndeere123 . So if you your Landrover is in to the tyre shop for a set of tyres they run the nuts on with an air gun and do the final torque with a certified calibrated torque wrench? . . . I ask because I just spent half an hour waiting for my wife in front of a busy tyre court and there is certainly no hand torqueing over here. The issues of liability raised here are enormous and ridiculous. Who is responsible, the driver or the owner of the vehicle or trailer? Give us a break. How could a driver be responsible for oil on wheel studs . . . who knows how it got there. How many drivers check the torque on their wheel studs before they embark on a trip. It all seems a bit over the top and, as with many rules and regulations we are supposed to abide by it would seem common sense does not apply. Cheers.
That question is simple: here in the US, a commercial driver is responsible for all safety checks of his vehicle. Of course, the carrier, insurance companies, etc. will be sued if a case is filed, but criminal charges follow the driver. Ever see a 250 pound 24.5" wheel coming at your face at 130 mph? Neither have I, nor do I want to. But it resulted in a death just blocks from my shop. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aox4wjeRiSs At the end of the day, any vehicle on the road is a potential weapon if unsafe, and ought to be regarded as such.
Yair . . . Catback I don't know what the situation is here . . . maybe some Aussie truckers could chime in. Don't get me wrong I am not making light of a serious situation . . . likewise it is difficult to accept that some engine oil on wheel studs is an offence. Actually I have seen wheels come off on a couple of occasions. In both cases though the duals came off as a unit and I believe wheel studs were not at fault . . . and I have lost a rear wheel on a C1300 International pickup which ended up smashing a glass door and television in the lounge room of a very fancy house, no one hurt but I was pulling some sparks off the roadway and the sight of that wheel smashing through the door is forever etched in my mind. That model Inter had disk brakes all round and the axle used to break level with the outer bearing. No safety checks would have ever prevented that so who would be responsible for any death or injury? . . . Me or International for their poor design/manufacture. Cheers.
Oil on the threads If this is truly an issue wouldn't engines ,transmissions ,and differentials be falling apart as they run in a bath of oil ? Me thinks it has more to do with getting the proper torque & stretch on a bolt that keeps it tight rather than relying on the friction of dry threads in this application . When changing a wheel with a little rust on the studs it takes a little lube on the threads to achieve proper torque in my experience .
Hey Scrub: I don't think you're making the matter light at all. However, proper torqueing (w/ or w/o oil, antiseize or what have you) is independent of "wheel studs being at fault." Obviously, if a stud is stripped (or damaged beyond safe use): it should not be used. Obviously, if a stud is oily or greasy, it should be cleaned, or torques appropriately. My point is simple: with ten lug nuts, one loose nut will not make a wheel fly off. If one nut comes loose, an inspection of all the nuts is warranted, and dare I say necessary. Stud nut markers are cheap and provide a simple visual inspection to ascertain no nuts are loose. Markers are doubly useful if the nuts are improperly torqued or not torqued at all. Cheers.
I think so, as most nuts on an engine or differential are not removed [sometimes every year depending on mileage and whether virgin, retread or used tires are install, as well as inflation] commonly, and apparently sometimes unprofessionally, and are not under the centrifugal forces that a wheel has, nor do they often require the torque (sometimes 550 ft. lbs) that a lug nut does.
This topic has caused some very interesting and surprising comments, in the U.K. we walk around with oil cans at the ready,it would seem in the U.S. and Canada you need a duster to mop up anything on a thread, but I will say that the wheel fixing is possibly a factor to take in, the U.K. and Europe seem to have gone away from the taper cone style fixing, this is an angle on the stud and an angle on the nut putting the truck loading directly onto the stud, the common way now is with the truck loading going through the spigot of the wheel onto the centre part of the hub, the wheel nuts and studs only clamp the wheel to the hub, the nut has a washer incorperated within its structure, also there is studs and nuts for steel rims only and studs and nuts for alloy wheels both types are clearly marked, as I have already said our oil cans come in handy around these items, also in the U.K. it is a usual task before the onset of winter to strip all the wheels off trailers (trailors) to clean up the spigot mounting and paint on copper slip in this area to ensure wheel removal at the roadside if need be due to a blow out etc, we do have good axle loadings here with 12 m-ton axle lines being common outside C&U rules plus we do have 15/16 m-ton axle lines on step frames with 8 stud fastening with thick dish wheels 16-18 mm running at reduced speeds, our roads are not under differing weights so the motorway and the little road are all set at the same level,I have never torque set a Cylinder head bolt or a big end cap nut without using my oil can! tctractors P.S. Scrub Puller, with all these wheels flying past your ears do you think you should "oil your nuts" (with a big grin) tc
In the past there were trucks and trailers with both kinds of nuts in the states now i think most are going to the washed kind were the weight is on the wheel center. I never liked the ones were the studs held the weight.
Yair . . . tctractors . Yeah, yeah, gotcha mate. I am completely unfamiliar with the current ways of attaching wheels so I've probably been talking B/S. I was quite amazed when I found that aluminium wheel on the golf course as I had only seen such disk wheels as steer wheel fitments and realised things must have moved on from spider wheels and clamps . . . and the fourpound lump hammer standing near the tyre as you spun the wheel to make sure you tightened true. One of the sets duals I saw detach flew of an ACCO water truck. I was one bench up on a scraper and I reckon on the first bounce into the cut those wheels bounced a couple of hundred feet . . . apparently a lock nut or retainer of some sort failed and let it loose. Second was on the highway and I don't know if they ever found the wheels. I had no trouble finding my wheel off the Inter . . . it was imbedded in the screen of the TV and balanced rather nice. Cheers,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLRSd4BsHpc Here's the rest of the story of the fatality near Milwaukee, the wheel is shown at 2:00, the whole center cracked out of the rim and the outside let loose. The truck is shown at 1:35 but I can't tell what it shows other than the driver might not have seen the cracked rim because of "chrome wheel simulators". The driver picked up a load in Green Bay so he only drove about 100 miles before the incident, should have seen something wrong in Green Bay. Hard to say what the driver would be charged with, could have been nothing or it just as likely could have been negligent homicide?
Yair . . . Delmer . Thanks for that video. It rather looks like wheel studs were not a factor and the guts pulled right out of the wheel. You would hope that a service department might pick up cracks before they got to that stage. An awful situation with a multitude of victims. May it all be resolved fairly.
If DOT sees oil, or antiseeze on studs you will get a 100 dollar fine for every stud. You can't get a tire shop to put anything on the threads. DOT's theory is that if rust forms on thread it will prevent nut from loosening. It is not however against the law to oil the nut and washer only not the threads on nut. Tire shops say that is the way to get proper torque as the nut is not binding against the washer. We also check wheel torque once a month.
That is an absolutely asinine law. A properly lubed nut, especially the seat area on an inner or outer Budd nut leads to much more consistent torque levels. Shows what a bunch of ignorant idiots "lawmakers" are.
People who oil the studs then torque to the normal amount shouldn't be near a truck in my opinion. Look at any bolt torque guide and there are different values between lubed and dry. I always check the diameter and tpi then torque to what my cheat sheet says weather lubed or dry Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk
I used to be a tire tech, and I learned everythign from a guy that had been in the game for over 30 years. I had training from goodyear, prima, and a few other companies I have allready forgotten. What dumptrucker said is accurate. The best way to do things if you have rust on the stud, is take a wire brush, or a drill with a wire wheel, and clean it off. If it is rusted too badly, it needs to be replaced. Same goes for the nuts, we had a smaller round wire brush to run through them. One drop of oil so the nut can properly torque against the nut, and you are good to go. ALWAYS torque your wheels down ( no matter if on a heavy truck or a honda car) amd always get the wheels retorqued after 100ish kms. It is the drivers duty up here in Canada to do a pretrip inspection, which involves checking that the lugnuts are not falling off. I had a co worker overtorque a oiled set of studs one time, the driver lost a set of tires, and got fired from hauling logs to a certain mill up here. Its just worth it to do things right.
Oops, I should have added the torque should be adjusted for light lube. And I wasnt promoting oil drooling everywhere. Most of us should know what we are doing after many years. The noobs are the dangerous ones.
Agree 100% - however to me it depends if the wheel stud is black or plated (bright). Let me explain ........ 1. What we usually call "black" bolts are more correctly referred to as "phosphate and oil coated". They have a light coating of oil - something like 5W or 10W - applied to them after manufacture to prevent them corroding while in storage, and more importantly to prevent them from corroding while in operation - because nobody really wants a bolt to fail in fatigue caused by corrosion. So the torque figure mentioned in any service manual for tightening this type of bolt is with a similar light coating of oil applied to it. No correction factors necessary in this case. My preference (and what we do with heavy equipment) is to have a shop rag soaked in hydraulic oil and simply wipe it around the studs after cleaning them and immediately before installing the wheel. The amount of oil transferred to the stud is minimal, just enough to make it look "damp" on the surface, there will be no oil dripping off it. 2. Bright studs, usually nickel plated, are not treated with lube at the time of manufacture because the plating protects them from corrosion or at least it should do. I would normally install nuts (so long as the nuts were also plated) on these studs dry so long as everything was clean. I'd clean them with a wire brush or similar. For running nuts on to wheel studs the rattle gun would be set to minimum applying just enough torque to get everything seated properly and then hit every one with a torque wrench afterwards. I don't believe in re-torquing - if everything including the wheel rim, hub, base, & hardware was all clean in the first place and the correct procedure (+ calibrated torque tooling) was used there should be no need to go back and check everything again later because you did it right the first time. We actually used compressed air RAD tools to tighten wheel nuts and IMO they work extremely well and produce remarkably repeatable torque numbers. Call me whatever you like but the wheel nuts on my personal vehicle are done up with a torque wrench ............. that's what comes of losing one back when I was 19 years old ............ The comments made by our N. American members about lubing studs and the authorities' viewpoints leave me quite frankly amazed and shaking my head that those who make policies like these are actually allowed near anything mechanical.
; I don't understand how you lose a "SET" of tires... Since inner and outer have their own lugs... . Gotta Fly...
It's pretty common, with Budd wheels like you are talking about, if the studs break off, the two rims will be bolted together on the inner nut, clamped between the base flange of inner nut and the outer nut. With hub piloted and Dayton wheels, a wheel bearing failure will cause the loss of the hub and both rims and tires. A stud failure will cause the loss of both tires, they just won't stay together.
Well... Now your talking Stud Failure... . Hmmm . Gotta Fly... . Most Budd wheels I know are bolted separate... .
Budd (stud piloted) wheels use a stud, then a rim, then an inner nut with inside and outside threads, then the outer rim, then a normal, inside threaded nut. Hub piloted wheels use a stud, then both rims go on, then a normal type nut with a swivel washer attached. Dayton wheels use a spoked hub, inner rim, spacer ring, outer rim,wedge and the most normal looking nut of all. I don't remember meeting a highway wheel setup where the rims are bolted on independently.
Yair . . . interesting comments continue. As I have mentioned up thread I believe a couple of rechecks after running are fundamental to safety. As mentioned and practiced by Nige retorquing may not be necessary if every thing was done perfect in the first place. In my experience "perfection" along the track is in very short supply . . . try changing a pair of inners on a two rows of eight float under a D8 and it's pissing down rain . . . or change a set of ten hundred twentys under two decks of mooing ****ters that have been on oats . . . that's the real world fellers and under such conditions messing round with freaking torque wrenches would be the last thing on my mind. Tightening the studs and checking them a couple of times over the next hundred kays has served me well and I don't think the fundamental physics of the problem have changed except for the better with the new style wheels . . . a bit of dust or grit in there behind it though and all the fancy torque wrench settings count for nothing. By all means use one if you need to fulfil statuary obligations but don't be blinded by the technicality, wheel studs are a pretty simple concept and (I believe) nothing gives peace of mind like a couple of checks for tightness down the track. I should also add that coming out of the dark ages my experience relates to I think what are known as "Dayton" wheels on duals and the concept of using a torque wrench on such a wedge concept that can be tight but running out of line is a pretty crazy notion . . . in my opinion. On such wheels a marker . . . the common one was a four pound lump hammer . . . was placed on the ground and the studs pulled up in sequence with reference to the wheel just brushing the hammer handle to ensure the wheel set running true. Any way while this is happening the bull dust comes showering down from the inner in the breeze and it gets on the wedges . . . any way you get my drift . . . apart from ideal tyre court situations if you depend on torqueing wheels and no checking after you are a menace on the road . . . with lube or without lube on the threads. (big grin) Cheers.
When I removed the Budd nuts they "jumped" every time they gave when undoing them. The same when re-torqing. I see this as a massive issue where the threads with that behavior are going to gall and fail. The solution from a wise and knowledgable local was to use graphite. Makes sense. Still a "dry" thread as required. Thoughts??
I still work the basis of a very thin coating of light oil, as I said before applied to the studs using a rag soaked in it, and a torque wrench. I've never had a wheel come loose doing them that way - ever - and I olny ever tighten them once. That's not to say they are not inspected further down the road, but the inspection is visual looking for loose nuts or signs of wheels fretting on the studs.
You can always rely on Nige for a great and prompt reply. Thanks again. I too agree that a thin surface coat of oil would let the tq happen in a progressive manner rather than loading up and having big movements. Nige, thanks for your thoughts on the zincless hydraulic fluid, I eventually went with the Hitachi 4000Hr fluid. I was amazed that it was crystal clear.
And cost you an arm and a leg no doubt .........