I have acquired a neglected Case 580E backhoe and am going thru and fixing leaks. For front loader cylinder, i purchased two cylinder seal kits: $19 from eBay, all no-name seals, fit and finish seemed lower than the below kit. $32 from foxkit, included at least one SKF marked seals. Quality of fit seems more precise than the above. My questions: - does the use of name-brand seals make a difference ? -where do you shop for quality seal kits? Thanks !
Hercules.
https://baumhydraulics.com
Welcome to HEF, Birdseye !
Thanks for the sources. The kit is p/n G109423. Hercules is $60 Baum Hydraulics is $32 None of the sellers list any specifics on the source or brand name of the seals, probably I’ll have to call them. The prices are all over the map. https://herculesus.com/product.php?productcode=JIC-G109423&pd=Y&pid=1540873 https://baumhydraulics.com/Search/Results?id=G109423#group=jplist-productlist&paging=0-12
Global economy. So like most everything even dealer supplied seal kits that says case on them and cost 70.00 all come from China. Most likely right off the same line. Like everything else one goes left and goes in Xyz back one goes right and gets bagged abc. I don’t think quality would be an issue if that’s what your concerned about. No matter where you go odds are good your getting the same thing.
I've used a whole bunch from Baum with good results, the 2 or 3 minor problems I've had were handled promptly and pleasantly. That's why I recommend them.
I recently bought some seals for my MF30E industrial loader. I was unable to find the seal kit through a Massey Ferguson dealer. Ok I did find them, but the whole kit was $170 for one cylinder. I disassembled the cylinder and measured the grooves on the piston. Using the measurements I purchased new piston seals from MFP Seals out of Michigan. I believe it stands for Martin Fluid Power. Two days later I received the seals and had the tractor back in operation. I was rather pleased with the experience using MFP Seals. It was a unique seal because it was metric 65mm bore. Easy online ordering, quick delivery, and good inventory. I think I will use this wholesaler for my next seal purchase. I also picked up some seal kits for my Bobcat tilt cylinder. I forgot to mention the piston seals were $7 per piece.
My supplier has several source suppliers, Hercules is one of the more prevalent.
I have ordered several times from CEA_Services in Florida. I have always had good luck with them. The kits are all Hercules. Every kit I have gotten has SKF-USA seals. If you order, it is best to call. They tell me that Corona has made the kits hard to get. I am currently waiting for 4 kits from them. They say they cannot get them from Hercules themselves (also in Florida). CEA_Services also sells on E-Bay, but they charge more on E-Bay. They have a good rating on E-Bay too, but I had a member on here tell me he had a bad experience...I have not. As an example: I just purchased a new gland and seal kit from Messick's. The seal kit from them was $154.53. CEA_Services has it for $53.23 plus like $5.00 for shipping. Normally I would have just gotten it from CEA_Services but it was having a problem and the dealer was helping me thru it so I purchased from them. Big difference in price, but the Hercules are at least as good as OEM New Holland.
Having never come close to attempting to reseal cylinders I just searched for New Holland lb57b cylinder seals and came up with: https://hwpartstore.com/collections/new-holland-lb75b-backhoe-seal-kits I assume this is good enough but are seals going to differ from model year to model year? There's also this for a know-nothing like me...: https://hwpartstore.com/blogs/tips/identifying-backhoe-hydraulic-cylinders Anyone have good or bad experience with HW Partstore? Sorry to take over the thread with a million questions... Does anyone have a list of the tools needed to replace these seals? Should I, as a complete novice but not afraid to get dirty, try? I remember a post with a video showing seal replacement on a different thread and it looked manageable but I'd hate to cripple my machine with incompetence. I'm assuming one of each of these may be wise? https://hwpartstore.com/products/3-adjustable-head-hook-spanner-wrench https://hwpartstore.com/products/6-1-4-adjustable-head-hook-spanner-wrench https://hwpartstore.com/products/3-3-4-adjustable-face-pin-spanner-wrench
aighead; Look at your cylinder glands to determine if you need a spanner or pin style wrench. If they are pin style be sure to get the large size adjustable wrench. Ebay prolly has the cheapest.
I've recently ordered 4 kits from HW parts for my 310 SE. Supper easy to use website. Shipped next day and the seals appear high quality. I could tell the origins of some of the seals, USA, Corteco and Wonyong - Korean supplier for Doosan and Hyundai. I should probably buy a spanner for my end cap. I've been using an air chisel. In some cases I'd still have to use the air chisel to break it loose though.
Aighead, As far as seal kits go, I see that there is a serial number break so you need to look up the correct unit. What I do is look up the correct part on messick's or New Holland's site, then use that part number to order a kit from an aftermarket source...usually CEA_Services for me. As far as tools, it depends what cylinder. Which cylinder or cylinders are you looking to rebuild? As far as attempting the job, this is how I look at it...If I cannot do it, I can take the rod assembly to the hydraulic shop, and they can do the seals and then you can reinstall the rod assembly. I have a writeup on a stabilizer cylinder somewhere on here. I will look for it and post if I find it. EDIT: Here is the link HeavyEquipmentForums
My first two leakers I had a guy rebuild them. I did my first cylinder rebuild and used https://herculesus.com/ I think they were about $29 per loader cylinder dump kit. They also sell a their own seal twisters which was real handy. https://herculesus.com/page.php?page=search_top&search_text_new=twistor
Also be careful when making a seal kit purchase that it is the complete kit. Piston seals can be purchased without the gland seals from some vendors. Those u-cup installation tools are a must have item. They are available in three different sizes. They are also sold in a set of three.
I replace a piston seal on my MF30E tilt cylinders in this video.....I did not replace the rod seals, but you have to weasel them in the gland without damaging them. The trick is forming them into a 'kidney' shape. I saw special tools for this, but have never tried one. I too am a novice learning as I go to. Previously I have only repaired a few smaller cylinders. Check it out
In regards to the recommendation of Baumhydraulics by Mitch504, I went on their website and was impressed by: - searchable with OEM part numbers - good prices (middle of pack) - specific information on each part included in the various seal kits So then I called and asked the sales person about the source of the seals and he assured me that they come from their suppliers some of whom are US companies. Feeling comfortable with what I heard, I’m going to order four kits and see how it goes. Hopefully some of the seals will have major name brands like SKF, Timken etc.
You guys, as usual, rock! Thanks for all the input. Am I correct to think that the "seal twister" and the "u-cup installation tool" all go to form the "Kidney shape" and are basically the same thing that helps get the seals in properly? @Swetz I assume, eventually I'll reseal them all. Right now I think I should be focused on probably the boom and the left stabilizer as I think I've seen it spray a bit... I haven't dove into your replacement post yet, but at first glance it looks incredible. Thanks again, guys!
Everybody seems to buy the 3-piece u-cup tool. This is the one I purchased. One of the reasons I chose this one is that it is in the USA. Some e-bay sellers are in China and take forever for you to get your order. Look at the pictures in the listing and you will see how the tool works. It really makes the seal install a nonissue. https://www.ebay.com/itm/3pc-Hydrau...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 I think I would start with the stabilizer cylinder, then work on the boom...The boom is a bit tricky and much heavier (cylinder is heavy and it is up higher). Be aware of potential damage to the rod. The stabilizer rod is down near the ground and is often damaged, so inspect it. It will only cut up the new seals if not repaired. If you read through that thread I linked you will see the tools that I used. Remember, you do not have to remove the entire cylinder to repack. You will need to remove the rod end pin and the gland nut. Another caution is do not use air to run the rod out...If you loosen the blind side hose, you can just pull out the rod assy...be ready for the flood of oil on both sides of the piston. Yes, in addition to the parts and tools, I recommend purchasing a 5 gallon container of hydraulic oil. If you have questions, just ask!
Hey aighead, I just reread your earlier post. The tools you linked are not the best choice in my opinion. The 2 hook spanner wrenches are not very heavy duty. This is the hook spanner wrench I purchased. Not to say you need to buy this exact one, or from the vendor in the link, but you can see it is really heavy duty. You do not need to buy 2 different sizes, This tool will do the loader cylinders. https://www.tooldiscounter.com/prod...c885?msclkid=a183b48d62dc17fd2698ebfe7931b124 The 3rd tool you linked is the correct style, but I would get a heavier one in 3/4" drive, and accommodate larger glands. Again, I am not saying you need to purchase this brand or from this supplier, but this is the size I think you need...The gland nuts can be tight, so heavier is better. https://www.tooltopia.com/otc-tools...paign=PLA&scid=scbplpOTC1266&sc_intid=OTC1266 Many members on here have reported purchasing the knock-off otc tool on eBay, and have had good luck. I cannot say first hand, but it sure is a lot less $. See link below. Again, there are other vendors on e-bay selling this tool. I just linked one. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Adjustable...364332?hash=item56db0ebfac:g:EtgAAOSwkoVesRDl
Hi Guys, I am from Maxi Parts Singapore My website www.mxpseal.com I do repair & assembled of seal kits for heavy equipment. You can ask me anything, free will assist your needs.
Thanks @Swetz Looking at the tools in the links I had I figured that robustness may be an issue, so I appreciate your linking to tools you've had success with! I also forgot that big breaker bars were a thing, so your picture there helped me out too (I assumed throwing my ratchet wouldn't work well)! This thread is yet another in the long list of threads full of info I need to keep in mind.
This is my breaker bar...very thick metal...you need it when you put a pipe on it . The linked file is the cheapest place I found this tool. You may try your luck at eBay, or find something comparable. https://www.harryepstein.com/3-4-drive-flex-36-long-xxl-sk-breaker-bar.html
This was the breaker bar I bought. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002DU1DDI/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I also picked up a Neiko torque multiplier around that time.
Caver, 40" is certainly impressive! Only thing that I can say on the down side is that it is rated for 1000ft lbs. The New Holland cylinders have a torque spec of well over that rating...I think the lift cylinder piston bolt spec is 1800ft lbs, and they have locktite from the factory. I can see that a torque multiplier would help out as the specs for the one you purchased say 750ft lb in = 2200ft lb output, within the capabilities of the breaker bar.
Swetz, That's why I was glad I paid someone to rebuild the first two cylinders (boom and dipper) as they are the highest torqued rod bolts per my manual. One of those (boom?) he said it was one of the hardest rod bolts he ever had to get out.
@Swetz I purchased the seal installation helpers you posted. They look like they are made of metal. It's probably pot metal, but it should be better than the plastic ones I was eyeing on Amazon. Thanks for sharing
Thread locker......What sort of thread locker is best to use on the rod end bolt when re-assembling? The OEM stuff is a white putty like substance, nothing like thin Loctite brand thread locker. Torque.....I’m assuming that since a 1800 lb torque wrench is not available to most people the rule of thumb is to tighten the rod end bolt as tight as you can with whatever means one has. The torque can be calculated by torque=force x distance example of tightening cyl rod nut somewhere near spec: 10’ pipe on wrench x 150 lbs (person pulling with their full weight on end of bar) = 1500 ft/lbs torque Personally I’d be afraid of tearing the threads out and ruining the rod with that much torque.
Birdseye, If you punch mark the rod end where it meets the piston, and then the piston, then punch mark the bolt head, and a corresponding mark on the piston, you should be able to tighten it back up where it was. I use the blue Loctite as that is what was on it. Like 6 drops.
Flat Thunder, I would guess they are stainless, but wouldn't swear to it. Not sure I like the idea of plastic, but have not used plastic so I cannot bash it. I can say these make seal installation a non-issue!
I don't have this particular set. But an identical set by a different mfr. I highly recommend this over those overpriced ones on Amazon. A google search for U-cup installation tool will find many,many vendors offering them.
What's the point of pretzeling the seal? On my 580sk I just used small picks and slid the seals on and off. ♂️
The U-cup seal inside the gland cannot be slid on or off. It has to be folded to get it into the bore. A pick will most likely puncture the seal. Taking it out, using a pick is the only way I know of to remove it.
Yea, I did a lot of picking on every seal I have done so far, on my tractor, to get the million pieces out... The silly little tool is just plane awesome...makes the seals a non issue, and you do not have to worry about the pick going through them while you are trying to het them in properly. To me, at less than $30, they are a must-have tool.
So.... just to follow up on the original question of where to order quality cylinder seal kits, here are some comments based on the orders I placed recently : Baumhydraulics - they gave me a discount of $7 off a $28 seal kit (G109417 3-1/4"x1-3/4")which paid for the shipping but somehow the order got messed up because in speaking with the sales guy I ordered 4 kits but only 1 was entered into their system . The seal kit came in an plain plastic bag, the main rod seal is marked Hallite and is a 'O ring energized seal' not just the plain U-cup seal, I think this two part seal is better. All other seals in the kit are unlabeled but seem high quality. The main piston seal is a orange seal without the Z cut . Good website with lots of info about what is included in each kit, friendly and helpful sales staff. Tractorstuff.com - I ordered the three missing kits that were not in the Baum order from Tractorstuff. Each kit was about $28. The kits were each in a sealed bag marked "Bulldog" from Tampa , Fla . The main rod seal is a one piece U-cup , probably not as good as the two part seal from Baum. The main rod seal is manufactured by ESP International (probably in India or China). All seals in the kit are unmarked as to their brand but have a number CS-######. The center piston seal is the type with the Z cut . Website is a bit lacking , family business, best to call , friendly service, very knowledgeable about the products. One sealed bag kit was missing a seal (no fault of Tractorstuff) but I called and they sent another kit. Ebay - seal kit for the loader G109460 , paid $19 , vendor is reliableaftermarketpartsinc . This was the lowest quality and the least expensive set of seals. The main rod seal feels a bit stiff and not flexible as the rod seals from the other companies, I am debating whether it is worth it to even install this kit. Foxkits.com - I got my gland nut wrench , main seal twister tool, and a seal kit from Foxkits . The price for the G109460 loader cylinder kit is $32 with free shipping. The piston seal is orange without the Z cut . Seals seemed to be good quality , already installed so cant look at them for mfg marks etc. Website is not so easy to search and find the right kits . Best to call.
I wish my cylinder kits were as easy to find and that cheap. Seems my tractor is an early serial number and every cylinder on it would require a new gland nut and piston to use the seal kits listed. It would be a great help if I could find the kit numbers for MY serial number so I might could cross them to kits that fit without having to replace the gland and piston. Birdseye when I try to enter tractorstuff.com into my address bar it redirects me to an auction site. Do you have a direct link to THIER web site? I am about to embark on resealing my crowd cylinder. Is the crowd cylinder the same that Hercules calls a dipper?
If by crowd, you mean the cylinder on top of the base section of boom, that moves the stick section between the boom and bucket, then yes.
Sorry, Tractor stuff ==> http://e-backhoeparts.com/ they seem primarily focused on CASE brand backhoes.
Birdseye, Thanks for the follow up! I recently purchased a seal kit directly from reliable aftermarket parts. Prior to purchasing I called to ascertain what brand they were. I was told that I would receive Hercules seal kit. I have used them with great results in the past, and CEA_Services did not have the kit in stock, so I ordered it (paid like $10 more than CEA_Services had it for). When the kit arrived, it looked nothing like the other Hercules kits that I have installed, and it didn't fit. There were no markings on the bag nor any of the kit parts. I am sure it was not a Hercules kit. How many of the cylinders have you repacked so far?
NH575E, I just went through what you describe on your machine. I have been ordering the kits, no problem, then I ordered the one for the crowd, which New Holland switches up terminology between crowd and dipstick. Anyhow, the kit was wrong and the tractor was apart outside, and I was not happy as rain was forecast. I know, I could have taken the crowd cylinder off and brought it inside, however, the blind side pin is the same pin as the lift cylinder, and I did not really want to take it off. Anyhow, I stuffed an oil soaked rag in the cylinder, and used electrical tape over the end of the cylinder. Then I taped three more bags individually on the cylinder, and finally tarped it. It was fine but I worried nonetheless. So, I called my dealer, which has been real good, and asked him about the kit. I used to be able to go on and see his stock, but New Holland has changed the parts diagrams, so that doesn't work anymore...that is why I had to call him. He said he didn't have it in stock, and it would be 3 days out. He did not mention anything about needing updated parts. I was hoping to get it that day...silly me! I then called Messick's. The salesman Eddy was perplexed, and he works for New Holland. Anyhow, the next working day he called New Holland, and got an answer. At that point Eddy called me and I was told that I need to purchase a new gland nut, which uses a different kit (see attached "service Bulletin" which he was kind enough to send). The gland was $277, and the kit was another $150. I hung up the phone and thought on it. With a cylinder apart I had little options especially since I do not live where the tractor is and only have time to work on it on the weekends. I called him back and ordered the $477.72 gland, seal kit shipping and tax, but asked him if I could return it if it didn't work. Eddy assured me he would make good if it didn't work. Unbelievably the kit arrived the very next day via UPS. The new gland looks very different, but works. The seal kit works too. The gland came with an instruction sheet (see attached). So, it seems that you can tell if the new gland has already been installed prior to disassembly. The new style gland has a groove around the top (see pic.). Also, the O-ring and backer are replaced by 1-piece urethane buffer seal (see pic.). So, in the end, none of the parts in the new kit fit the old gland. The kit that I originally ordered didn't fit the old gland or the new, but, the new gland and the new kit were 100% so, to end the story, it does work $477 later.
Thanks for the reply. Their search didn't find any of my New Holland numbers. Here is what I'm up against. My machine has an earlier VIN than the kits listed for it and they want me to buy a new gland nut and piston to use any of the available numbers. I'm going to call around and see if anyone has an OLD book to look up kits that fit my cylinders as they came. Swetz, You must have been typing while I was. This is what I ran into on my stabilizers except most of the parts on those interchanged. As I told you when you got into yours I had to machine out the gland nut for a larger outer seal but the shaft seal and piston seal worked fine. I had to reuse my wear ring but it looked okay.
So far I’ve repacked 1 front loader cylinder ( used foxkits seals) 2 stabilizers cylinders (used the e-backhoeparts.com aka bulldog seals)
NH575E, My machine is before that serial number too, but all kits thus far have worked except the crowd cyl. All kits have come from CEA_Services (which is Hercules), except the crowd, and they worked (both stabilizers, both front bucket, rear lift cyl.). I just ordered the remaining cylinders from CEA (2 front bucket lift and both rear swing cylinders). Time will tell how that plays out. The bulletin that I attached shows that you must change the gland, and a new kit, but it does not say that you must change the piston too. Also shows that my crowd cylinder is different from the one on the 575E. Most of the cylinders are the same. Eddy at Messick's was not sure why they are making us change the gland...he said perhaps they had a problem, but they seem peaty good to me for lasting 20+ years.
Birdseye, You are moving rite along! Have the rod seals in the gland all crumbled?
Swetz, Thanks for calling my attention back to the bulletin you attached. All of the kits in it are a different number than the list I have so I am hopeful those are the original kit numbers before the gland nut change. The list shows your lift cylinder being different from the 575 but the crowd being the same. The 87428632 number for the crowd crosses to a kit that says it's for a B95/LB75 and is half the price of the new kit. It would be awesome if that kit will fit my crowd cylinder. You didn't happen to measure the bore of your crowd did you? It looks like one may be 4-1/2" and another option is 115mm. That would only be a .027" difference but could be enough to keep them from interchanging kits.
One thing you can do when you run into stuff like them changing the gland nut is just take the nut and the old seals to a hydraulics shop and let them match them up. People that do cylinders all the time for a living don't use kits, they just use individual parts.
NH575E, You are correct, it was the lift cylinder that is different...I must of had a brain fart! I was on the correct page tho. As far as the kit number, that is the original number for the new updated gland (87428632). Eddy told me that New Holland does not update bulletins as the part numbers are superseded. That part is superseded to 87633295 (see attached). I did not measure the barrel, sorry. I did measure the rod it was 63mm. I would be tempted to buy the original 85819350 kit or take it apart and go to a seal shop and let them match it up. After all, you have that nice garage to protect it from rain .
Now I'm more than confused. According to my list the 85819350 kit requires the new gland. Is that not the number you bought to start with?
I think we have officially hijacked this thread! I don't have room to stretch out and work on the backhoe cylinders inside. Here is how i have it set to repack the crowd cylinder. I dug a hole to set the boom in to get it at a 90* and down to a working level. I covered the hole with plywood and cardboard to prevent things from falling in like tools, barn cats, etc.
LOL...no really, I am chuckling, as it is really sad that a company does not support us better. I was confused too! The 85819350 kit is the one I first purchased, but I purchased it from a different vender than all the others, and I have no faith that it was really the 85819350 kit. I can tell you it was nothing like the correct kit for the updated gland, that is for sure...nothing was the same...Rod wiper was wrong, rod seal was wrong, wear ring was wrong and buffer was wrong on the new gland and the old. Again, I discounted this kit to a bad supplier.
Back on topic, sort of. Just got off the phone with Chris at CEA Services, (813) 365-0042. Really nice, helpful guy! When he looked up the kit by application he showed a 85804742. Then he went to the Ford site and saw the 85818350. He had both in stock as well as the 87428632 I already ordered from him off of eBay. I went ahead and ordered the other two kits so I will have all three options at my disposal when I open the cylinder. He said to just return the two I don't use for credit.
NH575E, I am glad that they did you right!. Having 3 kits on hand will be great. I hope it works out. When are you going to crack that cylinder open? I spoke with Darcy at CEA_Services last week and I just went to the mailbox and all 4 of the kits I ordered were there...they were drop shipped directly from Hercules to me using 2-day priority mail...not bad service, and all 4 cost me $150 delivered. New Holland wants that for 1. So, yea, NH575E, we are back to talking about where to buy quality seal kits online .
I guess my timing will depend on delivery and the weather. I was waiting for clear weather and cooler temps to begin. I guess I should have done this planning and ordering last week. I'm on tap for $200 in kits but I should get most of it back when the dust settles.
If you get one to work, and don't send any back, you are still waaaay ahead of what it cost me to do the crowd cyl. @ $477.72! Let us know how it works out.
Mitch504, you bring up a valuable point, almost any O-ring , seal , backer ring etc can be ordered as a one off item. All you have to do is accurately measure it and look it up in the online catalogs (herculesus.com, baumhydraulics.com etc) . The kits are easier for sure but if there isnt a kit that fits, the seals are still out there for purchase but you just have to do a little homework to find them and you will save money. I repaired the O-rings in a leaking injection (NH 2120 tractor) pump by measuring and finding a supply house that sold them to me, cost about $12 for all parts, others wanted $500 to "rebuild" the injection pump and stop the leaking. The O-rings I got were cross referenced and were made by Nissan, they worked great, the company I got them from was rpmdiesel.com in Ft. Lauderdale . The dealers have to make money to provide good jobs with benefits to their staff. If it comes down to selling you a $10 O-ring and backer ring vs a $477 gland nut and kit, thats probably a temptation they cant resist . The same is true with my injection pump example. Get yourself a digital caliper and measure carefully , three times , take the average , shop around .
Birdseye, I agree 100%, the parts could be had if push came to shove, but wouldn't it be nice, if I, like you did, could just order a seal kit and know that when I take it apart it will be correct. I don't mind paying a bit more for the convenience of buying a kit. In my case, I could have done what you suggest, however, I had the cylinder open to the elements and had a 4-day window to get the correct parts, while working 2 jobs. In my situation, I feel I took the best route...it cost me, yea, but if I took off of work to find the seals, that would have cost me too. Be sure, if that cylinder didn't share the lift cylinder pin, I would have taken the cylinder out, then I would have had time to source the parts as you suggest. When I do the front loader lift cylinders next, I will take this approach, but they are easy to remove, if necessary.
Yes I agree , time is money and it’s a slow process to measure and find the correct seal. If I had to precisely measure and look up every seal for every cylinder it would be a nightmare, the kits are such a time saver. But having said that, many of the machines held by the people on this forum are 30-40+ years old and keeping an antiquated mechanical device going will sooner or require the owner to improvise after the support by the dealer ends. As we all know , there are 1000’s of older machines sitting idle rusting because some part failed and the owner didn’t want to deal with the hassle of finding or fabricating or retrofitting the needed part. Time is money, so the machine goes to scrap. I’m told that in Cuba there are still 1950s era cars in active duty, they got lots of time , not much $. These forums have helped keep so many older machines in service because individuals can share info, find info and perform diy repairs at a fraction of the cost of a dealer. These information sharing forums are a Very positive aspect of the Internet age. - done , stepping off soapbox now.
I find maybe these kinds of forums are one of the only good parts of the internet age! Maybe the best!
Birdseye, You are soo right! And, this forum is the best I have ever seen...people here just want to help each other no strings attached. When I read some posts, I am in awe at the knowledge transfer. aighead...I am not willing to say that these forums are the only good part of the internet...I just love YouTube. In fact, I pay a $200 a month cable bill, and never put the cable on. I prefer to watch and learn from YouTube. Now I know you may be thinking, why would you pay $200 a month and not watch...well, the old saying applies here...A happy wife makes for a happy life!! She watches it all the time.
200 bucks! Your life must be very happy! Ha! Have you looked into Youtube TV? I hear it's good and has a ton of content, but I've never looked at it so maybe it wouldn't apply for your very happy wife...
aighead, New Jersey is crazy with prices! That isn't the good plan. I tried to get the wife into online tv like Pluto, but she will not budge, and that is free!
Pluto is great until you've seen every commercial 60 thousand times! And then it's still ok...
https://www.foxkits.com/ Fast shipping in my experience. Seals have worked great and came with instructions. Located in Maine i think.