HI, this is my first time on the forums and i am looking to replace my case 1845c. it is a great machine and can handle everything i throw at it, however the time has come where i must purchase a multi-terrain loader. I am from Australia and do a lot of skidsteer work such as backfill, rubbish removal, pad levelling and other odd jobs. The machines that have peaked my interest are the bobcat t870 and the takeuchi tl12, however i have also heard good things about the terex pt110 aswell as the kubota svl90. With this new machine i will be expanding the jobs i do such as mowing, clearing small trees, driveway cuts as well as any other jobs that come my way. Money is not really an issue as long as the machine is reliable and i get 5000+ hours out of it. Any all input on the above machines would be greatly appreciated.
Hey there Aaron. Welcome to HEF. I just bought a new T770 this fall. We tried a Cat 289D, Case TV380, Kubota SVL90, and Bobcat T770. I can give you opinion on the Bobcat and Kubota. Power , smoothness, hydraulic function, and visibility are all very comparable. The only problems we found with Kubota were serviceability and a louder, less operator friendly cab. One thing I have to mention for you is the T870 is kind of in a class by itself, so comparing a SVL90 and PT110 is really not a fair comparison. I'm not sure about the TAK. THE 870 is the heaviest, highest operating capacity loader made. It is also too wide to fit on a car trailer.
Just for clarification. The term MTL refers to the ASV/TEREX/CAT suspended under carriage combined with a track that does not utilize steel in its construction. CTL refers to the more typical track loader utilizing heavier tracks that contain steel. There are rudimentary suspension on some models, BC has an option for a leaf spring type suspension and CAT has a Torsion bar suspension on their CTL's I bring that since as you compare different makes and models, getting the verbage and understanding the differences is important in getting what is best for your application.
As far as getting the "biggest CTL" on the market....Tak blows everyone away IMO...and that's coming from a die hard Bobcat owner. Outside of that, Bobcat & Cat (in that order) would be my next choice. But, dealer support is important, and that should play a big part in your decision. As far as "MTL's" go (KSSS already clarified this for you), your options are limited....and they come with a MUCH higher operating cost. If the bulk of your work was brush hogging/mowing (tread lightly work), then Id say go with a MTL for sure....but if your doing heavy/hard digging, and especially any demo work, go CTL.
Glad to find someone else that thinks that. Side by side, we also thought the Bobcat was a better machine than the Cat. Hopefully we will feel the same after a couple thousand hours. If not, the next one WILL be a 299.
Performance wise, its a close race with the major brands IMO. Some are better at some things over another....but when comparing cabs, other manufacturers arent EVEN CLOSE to these two(Bobcat & Cat). I recently went to the farm show here locally, and it has to be embarrassing for JD, NH, Case, Gehl, and every other major brand that was there with a CTL/SS. I sat in every single one(all fully decked out cabs, btw), and again, Bobcat & Cat are on another level compared to the rest.
Amen, brother. It's kinda funny though how the Cat guys refuse to believe it. The thing that really surprised me was the smoothness/feathering ability of the Bobcat. Have never been on a Cat machine that I could honestly say was not as good as its comparable model. But the controls on our T770 are absolutely flawless.
the TAK TL12 is a very nice machine , alot of power , good fuel economy , lots of room in the cab , but you will to be charging correctly for running such a machine
Honestly I am not partial to them. Cat, Bobcat, Kubota, Takeuchi are all equally good machines, we have Cats, but if we get a CTL it will be a Kubota, but thats because I like the machine but I love my dealer. Like all machines they have good and bad points. Just go with what machine you like the best and which dealer you like the best. Good luck!
We purchased a case tr320 last year. I absolutely love it!! I have it turned up from the service department and use it as a mini dozer! We did try the bobcat t770, I had it for two weeks and I was amazed how far bobcat has come in the last few years! If my case dealer didn't treat me so great and give me a great deal I would probably have a bobcat t770 on my trailer!
How much did you have to give for the 320? We got the 770 this fall for $66000. Had 7 hrs on it, we put on 4 of them.
I have run the T770, T750 and T870 back to back. I own the T770. The 750 is obviously smaller and obviously has less power. The 870 is noticeably wider and longer than my T770 and I didn't find that it was that much in the way of power. It was heavier so a little easier to dozer with it. I noticed the difference between the solid and roller suspension right away. I run the solid and I find it way nicer for grading and running the dozer blade. I have had some issues with my machine, but the service at the local dealer has been amazing for most things. It has been a while since I have run any other machine. Another operator runs a couple of smaller CAT machines and he mentioned that he is lucky if he gets a winter out of a undercarriage. (not sure of models) I love the M Series forward cab visibility and the joystick A91 option is amazing. I have done 12+ hours in one day in the seat and it is a dream compared to the hyd controls. I wish my dealer was a little closer, but no closer options for anyone else either. Test as many as you can. Equip
The tr320 had 11 hours on it, full cab,ac/heat, hydraulic bucket coupler etc.. $50,300.00. To me that was a great deal. The t870 I priced out was $84,000.washttp://www.arcticinsider.com/Article/Better-Than-Marginal-First-Ride-of-the-Season
I don't see that the CAT or BC cab have anything over the CASE cab. There are things on all of these machines that I like. I think BC does attachment integration better than anyone, bar none. I like the new CAT display on the D series, but I have not run the D series. I have always liked the CAT switches better than the buttons on the CASE machines, but over all I don't see one being head and shoulders above the other. Perhaps years ago you could say that but not any more. CASE has been building the cab as a pod since the Alpha, CAT just started with the D series. The differences I think largely come down to what individually you think is important. I am happy with my TR320, certainly there are things that could be done better. I like the dealer, I like the machines, they are comfortable and productive and have great resale. Other OEM's could likely also provide this, I chose this one.
Have a Mustang Mtl25, it has been a good machine, chugs the fuel though. but plenty of power. I am a small contractor and had to go with something I wouldn't have to work on too much. It is really hard on buckets too. lots of breakout force.. just my 2 cents
The CAT 299 is the biggest and baddest track loader on the market today. The most HP and hydro power that just is not matched by any other presently on the market. Outstanding and unmatched machine with an outrageous price tag to go along with it.
I just have to say that i find it incredible that a new skid loader of this size is 60-80K! For that price there has to be something or combination of something better for each application, maybe used but in the same price range. I guess im just asking, not telling anyone......?
The price on all these large CTLs is crazy, and with T4F they go up another 10%. They are certainly capable and with a degree of productivity that is impressive for a machine of that size. Personally I think they have about reached a tipping point, where there is little more useable capability left to be extracted. The prices keep going up but they will only lift so high and have so much available tractive effort.
Agreed. Well put my friend....I own a small fleet of 299XHP CAT, metal undercarriage , full forestry package and over 100k when delivered....it's insane what they can do....I tell my guys that XHP stands for Extra High Price....I have to run these unit 6 days a week at an average of 10 hours a day to make a living and pay the note at the end of each month. CAT basically priced themselves out of my market...I normally buy all new each year but I can't continue that practice at todays prices ...once I finish up on the current contract I plan to sell everything and retire...
Mustang has some GREAT dealers in Australia. Mustang 2100RT second generation is fantastic! AND self-adjusting tracks too!
If the Cat wouldn't have been $15,000 more than the Bobcat, we probably might have went with the 299. That was about double what we MIGHT have been willing to consider an acceptable premium for a piece of yellow iron. By the way, in case anyone cares, we sat up a 16,500 gallon bulk tank this last weekend. 23' high, 11' diameter. Had somewhere around 400 gallons of fuel left in it. Was able to stand it up with the 210, but could not pick it straight up to swing into place. Ended up getting under it on one side with 621 with forks, other side T770 with forks. The Bobcat didn't even know it was lifting anything. Handled its half no problem. We're not sure what tank weighs, but with 3000 lbs of fuel, and the 210 not enough, we are thinking around 13-15k? It's an ODAY tank, single wall.
When you show up with a shiny new CAT at the job site people know your dead serious abut what you do .hard to argue the looks and reputation built around the CAT brand and what they bring to the table..In my line of work the customers almost demand CAT iron on their job sites....Funny how people equate success with certain things regardless of facts or figures.
It's a VERY good thing to have customers who don't mind paying more, VERY nice not having to submit a competitive bid!!!
Of course there's more to Cat's higher price premium beyond just the sticker. All dealers are different, but Cat dealers typically have been in their territory as stable and steady presences for far longer than most of their local competitors. Cat's parts logistics are almost unmatched, it's hard for many dealers (not all) to compete with their service capabilities (in house oil lab, hyd rebuild shops, service trucks on the road, etc.), parts in stock, loaner programs, etc. Also, Cat machines in general (not all models) have stronger resale value than most other OEMs. Look around you, it's not common to see the NH, Case, Takeuchi, Kubota, Terex, Volvo, Gehl, Mustang or JCB dealer that has changed from dealer to dealer over the course of 20 years or less. Most Cat dealers have been in business longer than their current owners have been alive as they usually have succession plans from founder to son and to the next son, etc. Heck, even some OEMs have been bought and sold multiple times and new ownership changes cultures, priorities, focus, etc.
Yes Sir, However a BIG part of the high prices is to pay for how screwed up the Company is in the first place. Customers gotta pay at least an extra $580 Million just to cover THIS SCREWUP (And the cover up lawsuit costs from stockholders are yet to come)..."The Bigger They Are..." : http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/23/us-caterpillar-china-special-report-idUSBREA0M03720140123
That's old news.
We're (Cat Customers which I are 1) still paying for this, that's my point.
Customers of all brands pay somehow for the purchases the machinery OEM makes. Cat products had a premium over most machines before that Chinese purchase. No doubt someone's head rolled for that blunder though.
Any customer that is going to demand or even prefer a certain brand for you to use to do a job frankly has their head up their ***. It should make no difference whatsoever what brand machine I use to do my job. 50 years ago, Caterpillar was looking down from the top of every mountain. 25 years ago, that mountain was not so high. 10 years ago, there were others looking over their shoulder. Today, I don't believe there is much difference at all besides some subtle ergonomics on most machines. Are some better or the best? Maybe, but the premium is no longer worth the quality like it once was. JMHO.
Amen Brother.....but It's never a bad idea either to give the people what they want...
It's better than you can ever imagine !
Oh, I give them what they want when I comes to the finished product. The subject does come up once in a while. "Why do you run Case hoes?" or "how come you don't run a quad trac on the front of your scraper." I just tell them that I've never been disappointed in a Case hoe in 25 yrs, I don't believe the premium is justified, and I don't trust the trannies in a Quad. Most guys, that's enough reasoning for them. Others, little more q/a and move on. I'm not sure how I would respond if somebody said I can't do the job because I don't have a Cat hoe.
I'm sure you do, never a question at all from me...I Own a CASE 580 myself and love it....I've had since new and wouldn't trade it any other brand or for any other reason......great machines....I also have a old CASE farm tractor that has provided me with decades of basically trouble free service...
I have not seen that level of brand loyalty here, and certainly not by customers. I have only had one developer question running CASE over CAT, only because he used to have his own equipment and it was CAT. CAT, CASE and Deere all have there fans here but Ag is still King and the battle between red and green is way stronger than the battle over different shades of yellow iron. I personally would not allow a customer to decide what I buy, I buy what I buy based on my own criteria, I don't spec their building materials and would expect the same respect. As long as things get done in the manner that they want them done, you honestly could do it with a shovel.
There are people around here that are that selective of what machinery they use, but thankfully they don't pressure me. I will use what I think is best, and anyone that is going to try and tell me another machine is going to dig a better hole than mine purely based on brand is out of touch with reality and maybe needs some time in a padded room. Faster, that is debatable. Now the reliabilty and longevity conversations are different discussions entirely, but those are also business decisions which should be of no concern.
As I see it jobs such as pad levelling are becoming more specialised with the laser guided levels, you could set up a machine to do this job alone if there are enough pads to do or you can travel widely enough to become a pad specialist. I would guess you know which dealerships are in your area and the support they provide. The new model Terex PT100 would do as a pad leveller. The scrub mulching is more suited to the forestry spec machines with the high flow hydraulics. You can use track grips on the smooth tracks but it will not be a steel track Cat 299XHP. Ideally you might have a 5/7/8 tonne excavator or a Mecalac http://www.mecalac.com/en/machine/10mcr.html (100hp/ 10 tonne/ loader/ excavator) to work in combination with the skid steer to do the foundations/ drainage as well as the pad work as well as dig tree stumps out.
Why do Cat's cost more? Today's Cat news: http://www.equipmentworld.com/cater...-investigation-into-overseas-profit-shifting/
Some NOT old news that helps understand why Cat's cost more: http://www.equipmentworld.com/cater...-investigation-into-overseas-profit-shifting/
Not really sure I understand the axe you're grinding, but Cat machines have always cost more than other products going way back to when I was selling Bobcats. I remember when they introduced their compact products and they cost more then too. Can't speak for the Aussie market, but Cat's pricing must not be too far out of whack since they have made large gains in market share. Here are words directly from a guy I've known for well over a decade that works for Bobcat, "Cat and Kubota were the big compact equipment market share movers in 2014. Everyone else lost share including us".
I'm with you on this my friend. CAT has been more money since I can remember. They make a great machine and people don't mind paying for the name so it seems based on 2014 year end results when compared to the others on regarding market share of compact equipment. Grind away, I'm going to run my brand New CAT 299XHP....good day to all....
Welcome arron end of the day does it matter what you get it boils down to what you need general biulders work wheeled every time it doesn't matter if you are stuck because it's wet or bogy you already made your money by not having the expense of tracks i found the salesman sells the first machine and the work shop sells the rest look at the back up side of things warranty.so far hitachi or john deere have beaten terex cat new holland and kobelco hands down when i ring there the others say we'll get back to you. good luck with what you get. and what neck of woods are you from.
I read your post three times and still can't figure out what you are trying to say.....Is this written in " down up code " ? He he he
The major brands of CTL's have all gotten their products to a very competitive level as far as the manufactured machine goes. The difference is the your local dealer and how they run their show. This will vary from area to area, region to region and country to country. I have been a Bobcat fan for over 20 years, a Perkins powered 843 was the first machine I ever ran. The dealer in my area sucks to say the least and I've done business with them for many years. My divorce from Bobcat will not be a joyful experience as I like the product and their current offerings but rather a decision of necessity due to the ineptness of the dealer - it's gotten worse over the years. When you can order parts from a dealer in Atlanta, have them shipped 200 miles and still be cheaper than your local dealer, it's time to make a change.:cool2 Bobcat pricing locally is higher than comparable Cat machines. Yes I am a "Cat guy", only because they take care of me and I have a good relationship with the dealer. Now my experience is my experience and in no way advocates one brand over the other, that's your decision based on what and who you have to deal with in your respective area.
My story echo's yours to the last detail CM....I am now too strictly CAT because they value MY business and Bobcat did not even after 30 plus years of faithful business to the brand from me. Most all of today's machines are fantastic, in fact in the past ten years the technology has grown in leaps and bounds across the board. I have my own mechanic and shop to service my iron , when we need parts, I have to have them now because contractually, downtime can ruin my business very quickly. CAT takes care of my machines with parts overnight in every case from day one. With close to two dozen pieces Of equipment running daily, the dealer support after the sale becomes the most important thing to me and should be paramount in any purchase of heavy equipment be it one machine or 2 dozen , they treat everyone the same and that's what makes them so successful at what they do...
I agree on the parts, Have them the next morning even when ordered at 5:00PM, Have had to wait for some cylinders to come from overseas, but no freight charges!!!
I have a poor BC dealer as well, very poor. It is too bad because it would be nice to have them as an option, as it stands I look to CASE and CAT and have so far ended up buying CASE primarily. CASE takes very good care of me and I am sure CAT would also. I like the guys over there at CAT and they are my first choice to rent from, at some point I am sure we will get together on a purchase.
Too far away??? http://www.tylerrental.com/
O yea, like 10 hours
hard to get rid of the 1845 good tough machines not too many breakable parts on them. i have same machine and i am considering doing what u wanting to do. i have a takeuchi mini hoe have had no issues with it so makes it hard for me to look at anything other than a Takeuchi
I agree. This stuff reminds me of the time I was called to help remove snow at a CAT facility about 10yrs ago. It was a Thanksgiving blizzard that snuck up on us and this facility was basically caught with their pants down, trying to find owner/operators to come in and move snow.....only "requirement" was, you have to be running CAT equipment (LOL)...I own all Bobcat equip. They said come anyway. The guard at the gate was blown away, he said in the 20+yrs of being there he never saw another brand of equipment (that CAT made) come through that gate. I kick myself for not getting pics.
a little late Own a T770 2012 with 1475hrs, have had some issues with the machine (bought it used). It has been a workhorse though. Most recent issue is swashplate sensor for the right drive motor - could be a joystick or something else, but if its the motor sensor you have to remove/replace the engine to change it - ugly and 20+ hrs labor - so may do it myself. If I do I would still need the dealer to set certain parameters in the machine when I am done. So, due to the problems, I have asked for pricing on new Bobcat, new/used CAT, new/used Kubota. I love the track machine compared to my rubber-tire one (2008 Cat 252B2). But the 252 beats shoveling.... I have two Cat pieces - the 252 and a 2014 420F backhoe. The local dealer is very good, and I have worked for two Cat dealers in a past life as a diesel mech. I will see who comes back with the best deals and go from there. When I bought the T770, it was an extra so to speak as I was only looking for a mini-ex and bundled the T770 with a E55 - got good pricing so cannot complain. Love the E55 compared to the Cats I tried out.
I have had same issue on a T870 few years ago...turns out the hydrostat pump for the one side was goofed
I hope it is not the motor and just a sensor or joystick. Without a warranty this could be expensive and I really don't need that right now. What year T870? hours?
The 870 is a 2011 which i bought used with bout 1825 hrs Pump went out 7 hrs after i got it and was replaced @ no cost by dealer i bought it from
This threw a swashplate code for the right side motor - so I am hoping that it is the sensor, wiring, or joystick control. When I bought it I had the engine oil, coolant, and hydraulic all changed and sampled all fluids (kind of funny, they sent the samples to the CAT dealer for analysis). Nothing bad showed up. If it is the swashplate sensor, I may tackle it myself. There is one for each side and I think I would replace them both if its a mess to get at. I know I would need to take it back for calibration afterward, but don't know if it is worth 20hrs dealer labor.
If it is only sensors in drive motor or the hydrostat pump then i doubt the engine has to be removed
that's what the Bobcat Dealer told me - so am basing it on that. since I live in ND, and Bobcat's R&D center is here, I have emailed one of the Bobcat engineers and he offered advice too - suggesting swapping both out if you tackle the project, and that they have done it in the R&D center, and tilted the engine to get access. The only other thing I have done to it is replace the hydraulic pump tensioner assembly. The machine started making a "bell like" sound at idle and I couldn't figure it out. Then I noticed the tensioner pulley wobbling. It was striking the engine flywheel and hence the bell sound. Not cheap - $625 for the assembly - belt was $70 (not bad I thought). not a bad job either.
Mustangs and Gehls are built near you, Oughta check out their Crawlers, best service access I have ever seen, very clean design and nice big cab, reliability is fantastic now.
Which machine did you end up buying and how does it go ?
NEW FOR 2017 From Mustang
Update to the T770 issue - was the swashplate sensors, argued over the extended warranty coverage given the low hours I had put on and the fact the problem had been occurring intermittently over the past year, resulted in trading on a 2016 T770 with a 3yr total warranty through Bobcat - they also split the repair cost. Cannot say they didn't try to meet in the middle, between the splitting repair cost and 3yr warranty it made it even. Now my only worry is the Doosan Tier 4 engine. So far it has run well, low vibration, smooth, decent power. Seems quieter and smoother than the Kubota, but time will tell if it lasts as long.
we run cat 299d2 models and case tv380's. both have been good machines and reliable. all have high flow due to running diamond brush heads